This video made me not want to play TSW at all-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PC4FFoG4n8c

(It's legit - from E3 2011)

or this one.. which I think is from the same demo-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiioeQ5tXnU&feature=related

I mean... seriously. Besides the graphics, 2004-2011 called, they want their second generation MMO back! K thx bai

Originally posted by ololulu

For some reason i think that we need a mmo look more like Runescape(takes months- years to complete goals).

I guess i just need a very good sandbox game since themepark is pretty much dead for me.

I'm still waiting for a decent themepark that takes more than a week to max.

I'm also graphics fan so i don't like to make blocks out of blocks.

So i feel that i am with you 100%

1. no leveling cap or at least a cap wich requiers a year or two grind - CHECK

2. massive open world - CHECK

3. no instance at all - CHECK

4. max lvl gear should be very very very hard to obtain not that after few monts every noob walks around with max gear looking same as every1 else lolz   - CHECK

5. some castle siege, teritory wars and economyc/political play    - CHECK

6. Other things to do besides fighting  - My opinion

Have you heard of EvE Online?

I watched some videos of game play...

The class less system may be unique and interesting, but the Trinity based role combat was not. Group instance run looked exactly like a WoW/Rift/AoC/WAR/TOR etc. etc. etc. instanced dungeon.

Leh Yawn.

Also, animations were horrible - like City of Heroes bad.

Then I do some more research and find out you get special loot and titles for picking a "class" with your skill deck...

Not at all sold Funcom, sorry.

Only thing intriguing to me is the modern world + horror/conspiracy etc. setting.

But again, tank beating on stuff with a sledge hammer... healer standing in the back doing glowy stuff... guy with AK standing in place shooting, gal with Sword standing in place swinging...

2004-2011 called, they want their 2nd generation MMOs back.

Where are the real Gen3 games?

I do think the reality of just how volatile and critical the MMO community at large is has just completely bitch slapped Bioware, who probably seriously thought all along they were in a good place.

And they are, they are in a place of great potential... but now it is time to splash your face with some cold water, roll up the sleeves, and deliver on your promises before no one is left to listen to the excuses.

Originally posted by Vannor

I would say the combat system. The concept of having to change your weapons and stances a lot seems like it might be tedious and annoying to me. From the videos I've seen it looks like you have to do it ALL the time. Seems like a false mechanic that just extends the effort needed for no reason other than trying to seem different, but the end result is exactly the same as a game that has every move on multiple hotbars except now you have to press another button inbetween sometimes.

In case anyone is wondeirng though, I don't think this because I will find it hard or it will stop me from playing. It's just something I'd rather wasn't there for it to be closer to 'my' perfect view of a game.

This is just from what I've seen so far though, I'll see what it's like properly once I have my hands on it. It may actually be fantastic.. but I wasn't impressed with what AoC did by adding extra things to press to get the same result compared to almost every other MMO.

It's not just about extra bars or swapping bars...

It's opportunity cost.

By switching weapons, you can no longer use the weapon skills you had before. It's like a mid-fight talent tree respec.

Bioware made TOR too safe because their "trademark" story style just... doesn't work in a MMO setting.

You can't make a choice to kill Kaedin or Ashley - because in a MMO you don't have a revert to last save button and you could seriously gimp your progress because it is MMO "holy trinity" based combat.

You can't make the choice to save or kill Wrex - same reason.

I really do think Bioware believed in the beginning they could bring all of their "Bioware story + choices" talent to the MMO space, but found that the very structure and systems of a modern MMO game tied their hands far, far too much.

So they had to play it safe.

And as such, watered down.

I just finished my classes story line completely - my only reaction?

Meh.

But, I felt the same way after ME2 and didn't bring myself to finish DA2.

ME1 may have been the first and last Bioware game to really make me go "holy shit I can't believe that just happened."

Originally posted by Doomedfox

Thats just stupid if i cant feel any kind of progression why bother lvling to begin with?

Maybe i would want to 1shot stuff because i am farming something  i need for crafting and since the mobs are lvl 10 and i am 50 (just as example) there really is no reason why i whouldnt be able to kill them easy.

That said i have to confess i didnt even know that this is in the game but knowing it now it sure as hell qualifys for the 1 thing that would be least interesting for me.

Guild Wars is much more a game about choosing how you want to play and having fun with it - not being "better" than everyone else like most gear-driven MMOs.

One big thing is that you only have a certain number of active skills, so you have to create and experiment with different builds.

You could have dozens of different abilities as you level up, but you can only use a certain number in your active build.

It's much more like building a deck - more cards = more options and more variety / better customization.

With most MMOs, a low level players has a hand with only 5 cards in it, while the high level has a hand with 14 cards.

Who is going to have an easier time getting a winning hand?

The point of progression in Guild Wars games is to unlock all the possible cards, and then play and experiment and discover new and fun ways to build different hands.

This game could seriously fall flat on its face if we, the players, chose to spend all of our time in instanced PvP matches and spamming LFG for instanced dungeon runs...

The popularity and of course implementation of the open world PvE and PvP content is going to determine whether this game is a huge sucess or another disappointment in a long line of over-hyped titles.

UO-

Got to choose your starter area, and then it was just... holy cow, what to do/where do I go next?

Start exploring...

You know, I only skimmed your list of points - not the explaination of said list, and sadly - I have to agree with you on most of them.

It's harder and harder for me to be motivated to log in. I pretty much log in with the hopes that enough guildies will be online and motivated/interested in running Flashpoints.

If that isn't the case, I usually set my companions out to various tasks and log off.

1. It's so linear.

Yeah... doing the exact same quests 90% of the time in the same order on alts does get.. bleh

2. The unique class quests are such a small part of the game.

Yeah these are really the only interesting quests left after all the world ones. Not enough of 'em.

3. Too many grindy quests.

Yes, I think the real problem here is the mob density is very high (especially considering average populaion per planet and per questing area is QUITE low past like Dromand Kass/Coruscant - and the combat itself is grindy - every single pull is either 1 Strong + 1 Normal or 3-4 Normals or 1 Elite. Takes way too long to burn down normal/strong mobs (even with DPS spec and DPS companion fully geared out) and unless you can heal or use healer companion you will ALWAYS have downtime after every. single. fight. Any pull with more than 1 strong or elite + strong is a mega annoyance - it takes way, way too long to burn down strong and elte mobs.

And beacuse you ahve to get through like 5-20 pulls every single quest (just to physically get to where you are going) it is very, very grindy combat.

4. Choice is so black and white.

Yes, no gear for neutral that would actually make it worth while to not be 100% nice or 100% bad. Very little wiggle room for roleplay, and hard to tell if choices matter and stuff comes back later or not, doesn't really explicitely say "hey, remember how you didn't kill me on Tatooine? Well I'm back now to help you because of that choice." lol so it's really hard to notice.

5. Zones are so enclosed and linear.

Some are yes, most actually, Corellia lay out REALLY pisses me off. Worlds like Tatooine/Hoth are a lot more wide open, but because of mob density and spawn rates you have to stick to the path or constantly being knocked off speeder and forced into combat or quick companion on passive and run for it!

6. Lack of Atmosphere in both level and sound design.

I think the sound design is great, but yeah no ambiance really is very wierd - some examples but not near enough to be immersed. I think the worlds and the graphics looks amazing, especially places like Corellia it really looks like a war torn city and the sense of scale is impressive (huge buildings and docked space ships) but becasue everything is SO static, it doesn't "feel" like a war torn world.

7. Fleet stations make the game feel like Guild Wars.

I hate hubs. Figure people would learn from WoW in terms of Stormwind/Org/Dalaran.

8. Crafting is completely useless apart from Biochem.

Really hard to keep up with gear you can make yourself while leveling without spending a lot of time and credits, actually easier to just save your money and buy the stuff you need/want off the AH.

9. The space game sucks.

I wouldn't say it sucks, it is fun for a while, but the lack of variety (like 5-6 unique types only) the novelty wears off fast. It feels completely "half done" which really also applies to 10.

10. Spaceport travel.

I feel like this in there, you have to always go to your ship to travel etc. is because the whole ship/space game is half done. I really hope once it expands we'll be like "oh of course we always have to travel via our ship because the ship and space game is awesome because of X, Y, Z" but right now, yeah huge waste and not at all fun or immersive or intelligently designed.

11. Nothing you do has any impact on the world.

MMO 2011 - hopefully 2012 will breath some life into this aspect of the genre with titles like GW2 (which hopefully isn't just the next in the longer and longer line of overhyped games that don't come close.)

12. World PVP doesn't exist.

It does, and random encounters on leveling worlds can be a lot of fun, but they are rare... Illum is a complete joke.

The PvP level up process for gear (grind) is ridiculously terribad, but it is on PTR to make the curve more gradual and easier to gear up and catch up...

New, fresh content is a good thing - many people wouldn't want to keep doing the same content over and over for years and years.

It's bad enough that due to development time we are asked to do the same end game content for months and months until a new patch / tier of dungeons/raids is released.

It sucks if you joined the game later and missed out on some of the cool stuff that came before, but that's life.

The real answer is to base your end game on systems, not content.

Content by itself is just something to be consumed and move on.

Systems create content, good systems-based game play is eternal.

Games without end game. Now that is what a MMORPG is supposed to be.

I wonder if the PvP versus PvE servers is the big difference?

Because the PvP is so bad, people who joined PvP servers get to 50 and then quit.

I am on a PvP server and the Republic has barely 40-70 people in Fleet at peak hours, and planets like Corellia/Voss/Belsavis have maybe 10 people max.

Not too sure about the mid level planets, but on an alt Ord Mantell/Coruscant were both around 20-25.

We can't even put together a full 16 person Op on Illum during peak hours, while the Empire has at least 40-50 people farming us - hence I don't do Illum. Or PvP, at all.

Originally posted by RizelStar

Originally posted by Blackbrrd

Just about every game can be summed up this way.

1) start BF3

2) choose server

3) choose team

4) kill stuff/watch scenery

5) log off

Doesn't sound like much fun now does it?

/facepalm

This is why instanced PvP has no place in MMOs.

There is nothing MMO about instanced PvP.

So please for the love of God, please MMO devs give us a game with 100% open world PvP that is NOT FFA garbage but 3 way factions with proper population balance restrictions.

Yes, restrictions like "No you can't join that faction right now until the other 2 get more people."

And for the love of Pete stop making games where certain classes/races are restricted to certain factions - allow us to choose which of three factions we want to fight for independant of class/race choice!

PvP and Illum are garbage. I don't do either anymore. Won't deny that.

I'm 50 and finishing the world and class quests on Corellia. After that is done, do whatever I have to do to completely finish class story.

Then go back and hit up some heroics I haven't done yet on Voss/Corellia/Balsavis, finish up some bonus quest series I haven't done on Voss/Hoth etc.

Then go back and hunt for Holocrons, get my Matrix shards, get that created.

Probably will go back and fully explore every planet, hopefully finding all the Holocrons and lore object unlocks.

In the mean time, I'm running Flashpoints with guildies, and once geared enough will start running heroic flashpoints.

Once we get enough people at 50 (still some slow levelers + late additions) we'll start doing Operations.

Point is, there is PLENTY to do in this game besides PvP. PvP in TOR is awful. I'll admit it. If that is the only reason you play MMOs, well, there are lots of other MMOs with much better PvP.

But the PvE side of things is really quite good. I'm far enough behind (didn't rush to 50) so by the time I'm getting to these flashpoints and heroics and operations, they've been patched and fixed.

Space? I don't really do much... need like 1 more daily and I'll buy the last part for my ship and probably be done with it until it's expanded.

Crafting, well I maxed out everything but Diplomacy so I'll continue working on that and also trying to unlock more Epic recipes to sell on the AH.

3-4 people on Corellia, Rebublic side.

Really quite sad.

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by BadSpock

Don't need to sit there going 1 1 1 1 1 1 while the GCD is resetting.

I have no idea why you and some others insist this was causing the issue.

Because I have enough knowledge about the way computers work and how network traffic is handled (especially in regards to the upload of user actions i.e. mouse clicks/keyboard presses)

Always a delay/latency in anything online - spam a single key + delay = client-server communications going "Is it ready? no is it ready? no is it ready? no is it ready yes - go!" but because of the delay and the timing / sync between server/client it can definitely cause the issue in question.

Like a denial of service attack on a web server, if that is a useful analogy. Overload = busted, bad things happen.

And since all these back and forth information requests are also tied to activating a animation, it makes perfect since if the server/client gets overloaded and thinks you did the same thing twice or more at the same time you'd see the double animation or things would get glitched out due to a fault check to prevent the same action from being triggered twice and it wouldn't fire off at all.

Is button mashing the only reason this happens? No, it is/was a client/server communication issues in regards to the server receiving and transmitting back the commands you typed/clicked (and broadcasting it to everyone else's client near you) but the button mashing can and probably does contribute to it significantly.

And who mashes buttons the most?

Classes with instant activate abilities versus cast/channeled - i.e. melee fighters.

Self aware = feelings.

Until a computer can feel so sad and depressed that it actually effects it's functions it is not self aware, like a human who is super sad / depressed will have all kind of negative biological reactions to their emotional condition...

Can you quantify feelings?

You can certainly quantify the biological effect that feelings have on our bodies/systems, but can you quantify the feeling itself?

If you can't quantify it, you can't program it - so until computers can feel genuine feelings that aren't just pre-programmed conditions and false mimmicking behavior they will not be self aware.

How do you make quests better than objective based?

Give me an answer to that and I'll conceed the point that gather/kill/collect/escort quests are a necessary evil in a quest based game.

I didn't notice any difference after the last patch other than the added graphical effects to make it more apparent when your GDC is up and when abilities come off cooldown.

Also only really play ranged classes at this point.

But I never experienced any issues.... ever... but then again I'm not a button masher, I know when my abilities are available and press the button.. it just works.

Don't need to sit there going 1 1 1 1 1 1 while the GCD is resetting.

Hey on my server Empire outnumbers Republic 3 to 1 on Illum so we Republic have no choice but to hide in our base and try to "fish" for kills to complete our dailies/weeklies.

Which is why I don't do Illum. At all. Ever. Because it's total garbage.

Good open world PvP > Good instanced PvP > Bad instanced PvP > Bad open world PvP.

Right now TOR has pretty good instanced PvP, and bad open world PvP.

Honestly at this point I'd vote for them to completely shut Illum down, take it out of the game, and focus instead on creating more and better Warzones and then spend some SERIOUS time developing actual world PvP and put it in with the fist expansion.