Originally posted by Fly666monkey

I hope I'm not the only one who is a little confused by the attitude of people who jump into F2P games and expect everything to be free.

I don't think players expect to have everything for free. Most F2Ps don't limit content (compared to F2P Converts like LOTRO or DDO were you have to buy the other classes, or new areas, etc.), however they do sell some large bonuses in various shapes or forms that only cash shop users will get, and all players understand that. However, most of these players are happy enough with what they get, so they are indeed playing the whole game for free.

Short example. I've played Dragon Nest for a little while, made a few characters, one reaching over Lv.30ish (cap is 40 at the moment I think). I've never spent a single buck, never had any intention to either, so I did play for free. If you look at it this way, F2P in this case would be the equivalent of a Freeware. I believe the stats were 74% of F2P players don't spend any money 13% spends casually, another 13% spends a lot. Those stats were from a research in 2011, sadly Newzoo seems to have changed what they show on their website so people buy the whole research report (quite expensive I might add). Still, if 74% of F2P players don't spend any money, than it should come as to no surprise that players perceive F2P as Freewares, and it's not a bad way to look at it either because there is some truth to it.

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

InternetQ is pleased to announce its investment in Aventurine, an award-winning independent digital game development company

Aventurine is active in the highly profitable online games business for eight years now

I'm rather curious to know which award Aventurine has got. Also very doubtful of DarkFall being  "highly profitable". Tasos probably lied through his teeths again like when they edited and doubled the amount of registered users on the forum for a powerpoint during a conference he did in Greece.

Originally posted by dannydeuce

You really can...wait for it...role play in a game like Skyrim.  Choose what you want to be and be it.

 

Bethesda mentionned this guy on their blog recently "Felix the Peaceful Monk" He plays through Skyrim without killing anything. There's also another player, I can't remember his name, whose goal is to play as an NPC, basically eating 3 times a day, sleeping, running a job (harvesting wheat, cabbage, etc and selling them for gold, crafting potions and selling them, etc), and so on, he doesn't fight or anything.

It's really interesting what players come up with :P

Originally posted by GTwander

Seriously though, when all the obvious options are used up, there is likely 1/3rd of the entire map left unexplored. Go off on your own and check that shit out, there's nothing stopping you besides the lack of hand-holding.

Plus all those other hidden artefacts hidden throughout the world like the Atronach Forge, or the Daedric Shrines, the Dragon Priests, etc.

Heck, I don't think any player has figured out what's the purpose of it yet but, there are insects in a jar hidden around the world and they each have a 3 letter code inscribed on them. Finding out what they're for could prove quite entertaining. Let's not forget the various books that leads to new discoveries, etc. So many things to see :P

Originally posted by Warmaker

Originally posted by MadnessRealm
*snip*

And to OP, I'm curious. You mentionned completing the Thieves Guild, but have you truly completed the Thieves Guild? One way to know is to see if you've unlocked the Steam achievement "One with the Shadows". I say  this because I've seen a lot of people who thought the Thieves Guild's story ended only after the Nightingale arc, but there's more to it.

You see, I didn't know about that part for the Thieves Guild.

It's not actually anything major, although the game doesn't do a very good job in pointing you towards that direction. You actually need to do some grinding, depending on what you've done before. Look out for Vex or Delvin in the Ragged Flagon.

Originally posted by Warmaker

I've also rolled several new characters, and each time noticing something I didn't do or catch before.  Stuff is out there to do, just go out there and you'll find more.

Just shut off the Quest Journal and just go.  Find something cool on the map and make your way there.  You will be surprised with what you come across along the way, or after some diversions as you go.

THAT is classic TES gaming.

Indeed. Just say "Alright, today I'll explore that area"...and then half-way there you spot something that catches your eyes and your off on a completely different road. That's what Skyrim is all about, the side quests, the things that really don't matter in other SRPG or even MMORPG are actually the thing Bethesda puts the most effort on in TES. The side-stuff is so fleshed out, each caves, sunken ships, ruins, etc all have their own little story and things to discover. It's really fun.

And to OP, I'm curious. You mentionned completing the Thieves Guild, but have you truly completed the Thieves Guild? One way to know is to see if you've unlocked the Steam achievement "One with the Shadows". I say  this because I've seen a lot of people who thought the Thieves Guild's story ended only after the Nightingale arc, but there's more to it.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

seem like an advertisement thread

They did send some BETA Invites. It's one of those companies that probably buy a bunch of email adresses from god knows where (illegaly perhaps?) and send you an invite (or 2 in my case) to promote their game. Videos on youtube shows that it looks freaking boring. I'd suggest to whoever looking to try that game out to avoid it, not because it looks boring but because I don't trust the methods used by said company in order to acquire these email adresses.

Let's not forget their own scripting language "Papyrus".

All in all, quite excited. Already downloaded it, although not sure if I'll start creating (or at least attempting to) my own mods for fun. Sounds like it will take quite some time, so need to think this one out first.

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by 69Cuda
Considering that neither is an MMO basicaly makes this thread irrelevant.
 
 
 

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Kind of what I was thinking. It proves that people will play an Indie game and that they will play a game that is a time consuming sandbox made of sandboxes. We already knew people liked sandboxes though.

Doesn't have much relevance as far as MMORPG until someone builds a full on MMORPG Minecraft server.

 

I think the point of the thread was to show that it is wrong to claim that the Themepark market is the only one that "exist" and that the Sandbox market is purely a niche one, in which case the OP points out that both Minecraft and Skyrim have been extremely succesful and that there is potential for a real sandbox MMORPG out there, as there is clearly a large demand.

Most of my character's names are based on sounds I like, the prononciation varying based on the language (I speak both French and English so I often mix up the prononciation to come up with names). If a game has some sort of name distinction (like Lalafels in FFXI-FFXIV where parts of the name is repeated), or indicators/suggestions (like in LOTRO were they suggest you use certain sounds depending on each race), then I tend to try and follow those a little more.

Even though I don't RP (at least not anymore), I still try to make names that are as RP-friendly as possible. It ruins the immersion for me when I see "UrMumLol" running around, I just want to PK him so bad.

( Just a FYI : MadnessRealm isn't a name I use for gaming, only for Forums)

The fact that some users actually made this, shows how terribly ill DarkFall is. That a tool to find PvP in a PvP Game is needed is...outrageous to say the least. I ... I don't know what to say.  This is probably the last thing on my list that I would've expected the community to do; a PvP finder. I cannot find anything nice to say, it's unbelievable.

Originally posted by sanman7890

So basically you want a summary statement ending with a score then?

I suppose that is easy enough.

I was assuming you meant more of an analysis of why each category earned a specific score, and me being quite a wordy fellow would take quite a bit of room to exhaustively explain each score.

 

Summary statement would be accurate I suppose. Some reviews tend to come off more as negative than positive yet ends with a relatively positive score, sometimes it's the opposite . Just leaving it at that is begging for the kind of reactions we often see, especially on this site. Justifying, or explaining the score briefly usually reduce such reaction or at least tone it down while members find something else to complain about :P

Originally posted by sanman7890

We already have a criteria for reviews, and if we took all our time explaining our score there would be a dearth of writing about the actual game.

There are two sides to the coin unfortunately.

 

Few lines are required to justify the score. For example, many of the scores/reviews on Skyrim can be summed up to this "While many bugs, horrible UI and sometime game breaking bugs were found, the whole experience is so captivating that I simply can't stop playing it. For that I give it an 9/10, fix the bugs and it's a 10/10. I''m having so much fun!".  On the other hand, the PS3 review for this would be "While the game has been very fun to play, the countless issues on the PS3 have made this game practically unplayable. For that I give it a 5/10. Fix the game ASAP".

It's simply intended to make the bridge between the review (which can either have many very positive critique, or negative, or both) and the score so that readers can understand the discrepancy between them without  some players thinking like "they are giving high scores because they get paid", or low scores because "they're just a bunch of haters who know nothing about games". It's simply a bridge that gives a short insight that may or may not have been noticeable throughout the review.

Originally posted by BillMurphy

Let me just say that I find it very funny that I ask you to put the scores secondary to the words, and the comments quickly became all about the scores.  :)





I get your concerns folks, really I do.  But we are trying to do our best service and honest recommendations on every game we review, which means we're writing about the good and the bad equally, which makes the scores seem unjust.  That's sort of my point.  But rather than us NOT write about the bad, I'm asking you to realize that a score of 8/10 can mean a game's a lot of fun despite its faults.



Additionally, the stance we take on scoring in general is akin to a Grade Scale in any American High School.  Anything below 6 is likely considered failing, a 7 is a C, an 8 is a B, and an A (90/100+) is damned near perfect. 



Again, you may not agree with this method, but it IS how we do things and we ARE always evaluating things.

 

There is a clear discrepancy between the scores given and the actual content of the reviews on this site. But I don't think the issue is the discrepancy itself, but the fact that we don't really know what those "scores" stands for. If each writer were to write the very same exact review, word for word, they would still score the game differently, and I think that's where members are confused.

I believe MMORPG.com should have a single grading system and have all the writers follow this same scale. Also explaining in detail the grading system and what each value stands for would be a good thing to do as well, so that everyone can be on the same "level" as far as reading and understanding. In addition, I believe Writers should also explain their scores, because as you said, a game can have many flaws yet be scored higher because it's a very enjoyable game.  If writers were to justify their scores, I believe it would be a lot easier for the readers to understand from the perspective of the writer.

I's also very difficult for me to read that scores don't really matter, yet when we look at the SWTOR Roundtable review (for example), the first thing you will read is this : "BILL MURPHY - 9/10". Or when you look at reviews from the review page of this website, "FINAL SCORE - X.X" with a relatively large police. These are the first thing that members will notice. If scores really don't matter as much as the reviews themselves, perhaps re-thinking the placement of those scores may be a wise thing.

The fact is that, scores do matters. Not everyone reads the entire review (as much as I believe that they should), so the scoring system is very important. It also reflects greatly in websites such as Metacritics. I think it was 2 years ago when one of the writers here (I believe it was Jon Wood?) wrote an article about reading comprehension if I remember correctly, and near the end of the article he asked members who commented to write something and include "Jon Wood" in the comment. Few did.

TL;DR Make an article about the grading score itself explaining each score in detail. Have writers follow this grading score more closely. Writers should explain the score they give.

Originally posted by NeoCount

I beg to differ. The quality of his review wasn't in question, so "throwing him into a pack of wolves" is a moot point (and i agree with every score he gave and every criticism he put on the table in his review).

I honestly believe it was related to his conduct - boasting his review on a hardcore sandbox game forum smelled bad.  No way around it. That post hurt his credibility, even though the issues he raised in his review were, indeed, valid.

But it's the truth. He was the only one to give a score below what the average "reviewer" put, and MMORPG.com chose it.  If MMORPG.com hadn't chose to include his mini-review (not this one here, but the one in that round-table thingy), and he just posted one on this forum, I'd definitively understand this hurting his credibility as he'd be just another average "hater" trying to look cool... but MMORPG.com DID include his mini-review, which to me, is where I draw the line between someone just seeking attention, or someone just sharing what he wrote, and stating things for what they are; MMORPG.com's staff gave 8's and 9's while he gave a 6.

I truly don't see why people are so bothered by this, I don't understand it at all.

Note: When I mentionned "throwing him into a pack of wolves", I'm not referring to the quality of the review, but the score alone. If you look at the comments of the round-table thread, you can see A LOT of members either attacking him for the 6 he gave, or praising him for it. His review did not fit at all with the rest of the panel, and it striked me as obvious that they were just throwing him in to look "fair and balanced". You don't just pick a negative review against 4(5 or 6?) positive ones, knowing the impacts it will have for no reasons.

edit: This note looks a little too tin-foil hat-ish to my liking. Can't seem to find  a better way to phrase it though, sorry.

Originally posted by Teala

Maybe it was how he did it that is more important.   If you followed the original story about his posting over on the DF forums some might say his integrity is in question.

He's been a long and active member of DarkFall, and several ex-DarkFall player still frequent that forum too. RipperX (who posts many videos on this site) often posts videos of his (MMORPG.com links) on DarkFall's forum as well. Haven't seen anyone get all butthurt about it  or claiming that he's just seeking attention/has no integrity.

Edit: Inb4 someones claims that I'm hating RipperX or whatever they can come up with, No. I'm not. He's a great guy, does very entertaining videos as well.

Originally posted by Teala

I am going to have to agree with the Masked one on this...

...OMG hell just froze over...

when Danny went to the DF forums and made his post...he basically threw his integrity out the window.  For all we know he wrote his original little blurb as a means to gain attention.   Which for all we know, with his little blurb, "Actually, I was let go from MMORPG.com indirectly because of this article."    is just his way of getting attention.   Sorry Danny, but you blew it.  

I disagree. It's like a blogger posting a link to his blog on a forum he visits often. If more people view "x" article on said blog (or website like MMORPG.com) and agreed with it, then the author will gain more "followers" which in turn will help him to keep either the blog running or the job at websites like MMORPG.com.  I don't see this as a way of getting attention at all quite frankly.

MMORPG.com wanted a negative review to appeal to whatever crowd it is that may not agree with the rest of the article where several MMORPG.com staff practically demanded SWTOR's hand in marriage. It was basically like throwing him into a pack of wolves while they just stand there and watch just to keep that "fair and balance"  appearance that so many media seems to be hooked on. In turn, he (Danny) offered a fair review, and tried to get more members to view it (which most websites usually LOVES because it means more traffic). I think there's no doubt that being "fired" made him angry, which in turn pushed him to post this review, but nothing that I would classify as someone just wanting to get some attention. Besides, that part you quoted was removed about a minute later, had he really been trying to seek some attention, pretty sure that part would still be there.

OR, you can play with teammates and have everyone carry Feathers and Party Feathers to revive players and it won't even cost a penny! Of course if everyone dies by then, you're all screwed...but still.

Currently, any MMO is better than DarkFall. Will DarkFall 2.0 save the day? Only time will tell (think I heard about beta in Q2 this year, not sure?) .

Still, DarkFall was awesome at Launch, but died down too quickly because of Aventurine's extremely slow reaction time, and their inability to fix any of the glaring issues that happened back then (which still aren't fixed to this day, they just found a way to encourage a different behavior but that's it). I'm referring to exploiting for example, also AFK skill grinding  and Bloodwalls (still possible, but Meditation reduced this relatively well). Because of that alone, any MMO is currently better than DarkFall.

DarkFall would've been a much better game if Aventurine had gone with their initial view rather than going with the cookie-cutter/"we're a small team and programming is hard" way. Alignement System is a complete failure, so is the "conquest" system, the skill system, etc.

I have no clue how the new siege mechanics and armor system will play out. Tasos gave a decent amount of info on it but I don't want jump the gun and say it will be the greatest change ever. One thing Launch taught us is that AV are very bad at predicting player behaviors (and delivering), and because of that are unable to really make a system that will give as much freedom as possible but without letting things get out of hands either. Alignement System is a perfect example, and twice at that. From PKers going -100 to +10 simply by repeatedly killing a red alt char, then you had Blue Blocks tactics, etc. Then they changed the alignement system and introduced Chaos Churches, but completely forgot about players who are red simply for defending themselves or their allies, so they have to wait 50 days without killing a blue player (for self-defense) just to get back to blue. Finally they fixed it with the lawless areas, but we're talking over 2 years later...and that's just for the alignement system.

So I'll say it again, currently any MMO is better than DarkFall. Might as well add some Single-Player games while we're at it, because Skyrim is just so freaking awesome and the engine should be released to the public soon.

P.S and don't give me that "Just name a game" thing, it's irrelevant. Don't try to find closeted WoW players, there's none of that in my house. Debating opinions is just ridiculous.

Originally posted by Royalkin

I'm not so much blaming them for creating bugs, but that they are choosing to ban players for gameplay that is available, rather than addressing the bug itself. Granted, they can't do this instantly, but they could have issued a statement stating that they are aware of the bug, and are working to correct it, rather than banning people.

Secondly, I don't see this as an exploit. There will always be wealthy people, both in a game and in real life, and doing things to penalize their acquistion of wealth does nothing but drive them away from a game or a country. It really seems to me that BioWare has a problem with players achieving wealth through the economy (I've also read articles about how they frown on mules and merchant characters) and through the acquisition of these "loot contatiners".

Therefore, it seems to me that Bioware/EA, as I said in the previous post is being very 'draconian' about what they think is 'normal gameplay'.

Banning was  excessive, but I get the reason why they've done that. However wiping the account could have been just as effective rather than banning. On the issue of the Exploit, If SWTOR was a Sandbox I'd agree with you that it's not an exploit, but a Level-based game Themepark, to be able to acquire gear and credits designed for much higher level and to do so without interruption *is* an exploit, and was declared as such in BW's TOS. I can't fault BioWare on that.

I'll just throw the definition of "exploit" in (albeit for computers in general and not strictly to gaming): An exploit (from the verb to exploit, in the meaning of using something to one’s own advantage) is a piece of software, a chunk of data, or sequence of commands that takes advantage of a bug, glitch or vulnerability in order to cause unintended or unanticipated behavior to occur on computer software, hardware, or something electronic (usually computerised). This frequently includes such things as gaining control of a computer system or allowing privilege escalation or a denial-of-service attack.

And of course there will always be wealthy players in MMORPGs (just like in anything for that matter), but it must be gained in a legit manner. By using this "exploit", they did not acquire their wealth through the economy "legittely", which is to say "within the boundaries set by the developers" (and this would apply to any Themepark MMO, regardless of the company, they have all the same ruleset mostly).

I wouldn't call their methods Draconians per se, as I've seen worse (server rollback + bans). Players ought to be glad that BW didn't go as far as to rollback their servers else all hell would be let loose. With that being said, the bans were excessive as it is, to some extent, BioWare's fault for not setting up the necessary boundaries to prevent such from happening.