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All Posts by Torik

All Posts by Torik

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Originally posted by SpottyGekko

The tiny group (compared to today's numbers) who played UO and EQ1 had a strong background in slower gaming experiences, especially PnP sessions. So they largely accepted the "grindy" aspects and slow progression of those early games. They were basically a niche market.

I am not really buying this.  I was a PnP RPG player before I got into MMORPGs and as such I always hated the "grind".  PnP simply does not have it and any GM who just kept doing the same random encounter over and over would be replaced after the second session. 

The grinding was accepted as a 'necessary evil' because it was presumed that the devs did not have the technical know how and the resources to implement something better.  Once that idea became discredited, many players will not tolerate too much grind in their games and simply move on once a game becomes too grindy.

Originally posted by DMKano

Leveling speed is not the core problem.

The core problem is the linear content that is given to players to consume, and once consumed players have "tiny" endgame (which is usually 1/1000th of the game world - being repeated over and over again - like end raids/zones/dungeons).

That is the issue.


Compare that to an open-ended game that is player "built" - example EvE, or SWG (pre-NGE)


Thempark - huge influx, followed by sharp decline (content consumed - players move on)

Sandbox - slow ramp up, it takes time for players to build worlds and alliances/politics also develop over time

It is not as clear cut as themepark vs sandbox.  SWG was most definetly a sandbox but certain design decisions made it into a 'finite content' game as well.  Many players who started at release reached a point where they got a character they liked and did run out of stuff to do with that character.  Their only option was to scrap it and start on a different character.  Many did not feel like grinding through the same stuff over and over so they quit.   NGE was a knee-jerk reaction to all those players quitting about a month or two before the CU.

Originally posted by Four0Six

I do.


Every God Damn time I play.


Every God Damn game I play.


I am a realist.


Plus no need to tempt any Elder God with a claim of pride and vanity, that most often always ends in crushing defeat.

Yeah, some of the comments here perplex me.  Are people really that deluded that they think that a NPC saying "You are the biggest hero in the world" suddenly makes them the best player in the game?

When I play a MMORPG, I recognize three levels of "reality"

-story reality:  whatever the story presents my character as and whatever events the character is taking part in

-in-game reality:  the power level of my character and how it matches up against mobs and other player characters

-out-of-game reality aka  Real Life:  how I as a player match up against other players.

I never have problems recognizing which level of 'reality' I am currently operating on and easily recognize that being 'best' in one reality does not impact my status in another. 

Originally posted by zzax
Originally posted by Cephus404
No, all games are about entertainment.  Tetris is not about escapism.  Pong is not about escapism.  They're about having fun.  You are insisting that what you want in an RPG is what everyone has to want in an RPG, but clearly, that's not the case, many, perhaps even most these days, have no interest in interacting with others in a game.  That's why most games appeal to solo players.  Very few people care about immersion or focus, however you want to define those terms, they just want to have a good time while they're playing the game, they don't want to lose themselves.

There are other genres for people not wanting to interact. Its like joining football team then saying, "but I just wanted to play alone". You are killing everyones fun and looking like retard at the same time.

I see it more as me going to the beach to sit in the sun and maybe play in the water for a bit while being surrounded by people I might or might not interact with.  However, my experience is soured because the beach volleyball people are being utter jerks because I do not want to join their group and play beach volleyball all the time.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Time content has no place in MMORPG? Blizz obviously disagrees. Timed dungeons are already in WoW.



It goes back further than that.  Any boss with an enrage timer is essentially a speed run.   Boss fights with phases become speed runs as player burn their cooldowns to deal extra damage and end certain phases early. 

Originally posted by Superman0X

Try 'A Tale in the Desert'


I have to second this.  ATitD is a game where anything of importance is created by players cooperating and noone can force you into playing a certain way. 

Originally posted by UsualSuspect
Originally posted by OminousDawn

This from a thread discussing the wonders of no quests, and going back to a time when players camped for hours in the same place, waiting for the same mob to spawn over and over, just so that a puller could pull it to the camp and kill the same mob over and over for hours on end?

Irony at its finest.

I can see what you're saying, but I disagree that the EQ style was somehow worse than the quest grind. The difference I see is that with the quest grind it's like completing little parts of the game, one after the other. Congratulations, you collected 20 pelts. Thwack, fzzzt, boom! Congratulations, you defeated 20 boars. And on and on and on. I find it quite jarring, it breaks up the flow of the gameplay and turns it into a quest for little achievements. It's like climbing steps one after the other, very noticable steps.

In EQ, you could sit in a spot for hours, chatting the day away, casually blowing up mobs with your wizard spells, watching the sun rise and fall, conversation would flow from one topic to the next, there'd be laughs and danger. And then suddenly, "DING!", level up. It was usually so loud you'd get a fright from it. And that's the thing, you were rarely watching the XP bar, you weren't jumping from place to place playing a game of Pokemon 'Gotta catch them all'. It was just relaxed and fun and then you'd level and it'd be like, "Oh cool, I leveled, didn't even realise I was close.".

So it's two different styles. The jump, jump, jump, constantly moving and completing pointless quest after quest. And theres the relaxed bashing while enjoying the company of your companions and hey, you'll probably level from it sooner or later.

I think the problem is a fundamental difference in temperament.   For me grinding the same content over and over is not relaxing.  In fact I find it quite depressing.  It tends to make me irritable and anti-social. 

I need the challenge of changing content where I have to constantly apply my problem solving skills to different problems.  It makes my brain fire in all different directions and I am extremely relaxed and socialable. 

My main problem with quests is that they tend to devolve into a quest grind which IMO defeats the entire purpose of having quests.  Quests need to be way more varied and always try to find new ways to challenge your problem solving skills. 

I play MMORPGs for the variety of tasks and the multitude of problem solving challenges.  Repetitive grinding is the opposite of this and turns me into a brainless zombie that is just not fun to be around.

Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by StonesDK

I doubt enough people wants to sit and wait for 5 - 10 minutes while mana goes back up or to be put on 'lists' just to get into a good loot/xp group, nor do i think people really want to forgo all the conveniences most of us have gotten used to by now.


What I do think a lot of people want, is a longer leveling experience where the journey becomes the main meat of the game. I just don't see that happening without ridiculous time sinks that the majority would hate

to be fair 'most people' are morons.

A game doesnt have to appeal to 'most people' in order to make money

To be fair, this logic also means that most of the people wanting an EQ-like game are morons.  :)

Originally posted by Robokapp

MMO players who like challenging PvP will be intereted in how fast stuff happens.


MMO players who like challenging PvE will be interested in how many decisions they have to make correctly, not how fast they make them.


if you have to ask you'll never understand.




3% hp. boss enrages. you're the offtank. What do you do?

a) hit boss as hard as you can.

b) pop your remaining cooldowns for when the MT inevitably gets one-shot.

c) run across the room.

d) taunt the boss with cooldowns popped hoping your avoidance will buy time.

e) taunt and try to kite.

3-4 wipes on the boss should answer that question for you.  Heck there might be nothing you can do but wipe because of how nasty the boss is so all the choices might be pointless.  If you have no prior knowledge of how this boss enrages then on the first run there is no challenging decision, merely guesswork.   The decision making challenge exists in the run throughs after this where you have some limited information and have to make decisions based on that information.  Once you figure out how the boss works that challenge is gone and you are merely left with an execution challenge.

It might be just the engineer in me talking but I always found great challenge in figuring out the fastest way to achieve something without missing any of your goals.  It indicates that you have fully "solved" that challenge.  It is the ultimate in decisions making and execution .

Originally posted by Distopia

You just completely changed lanes there, you said a need to talk, IE-can't beat a MOB so you need help. Now you're talking about downtime.

My point is being forced into a social situation isn't the same thing as being a social person. I spent hours in SWG cantina's having no need to be there, chatting and having a good time, that's real socialization and a much better approach IMO, as it's not based on typical "i'm talking to you cuz I have to or need you" reasoning. That's what's missing in today's games, harder group based content certainly isn't, they all have it and it changes nothing, most just skip it and continue on with solo based content. It's the nature of the communities that have changed, not enough common interest in coming together to form communities.



It's kinda ironic that large group organized content like raids turns out be such an anti-social activity.  One would think that the large scale teamwork required would create a great social environment but instead you get a regimented system where people hate on each other and non-conformity is punished.  

From my personal experience, small scale casual, 'non-forced' content creates the best communities.  If you try to take the game too far in the hardcore direction, socializing goes by the wayside.

Originally posted by Ludwik
Art is really cool to look at once. But once you've seen it, you've seen it.

Exactly.  I like good graphics as much as the other guy but I am not gonna go gagga over a landscape I have already seen a dozen times.


You would need to make it a living, interactive world for it to keep people interested over multiple visits. 

Originally posted by Saxx0n

I see these discussions and the more I look at the core of the argument I am beginning to understand that this is a battle of ideologies.


Group A - Wants the developer to take complete care of them and be responsible for their safety and well being.


Group B - Wants to be independent  and have the developer give them toolsets so they can take care of the problems themselves.

I am in Group B but unfortunately so far no developer has given me the ability to punch the ganker in the face through my monitor.  Heck, I would just settle for the ability to put a ganker's account in a "prison" for a month or two. 


In a way it is sad that most PvPers prefer to be cuddled by the developers and do not want any serious consequences in their games.

Originally posted by General-Zod

I understand your statement. However...

EvE is a really successful game because it has more to offer than just player killing. The point I tried to make earlier in another post is that 90 percent developers since 2005 have been trying to make the most "profitable MMO" instead of the most "Fun and creative MMO". What features can we add that attracts the most players? What will make our players feel the best while playing? Im not saying that dev's aren't supposed to make money ... i'm just saying that games that are being made are soulless.

EVE managed to survive because the devs did in fact limit the most destructive PK behaviours (eg griefing newbies in starting zones can get you banned).  The game design itself also limits the most destructive PK activities (eg cannot loot a player's private hanger or sabotage their auctions).  Thus the alternate playstyles get enough breathing room that they can still enjoy the game.   If you tried to make a game that is more PvP hardcore than this, that breathing room goes away and you are left with the dedicated PKers only. 

The other problem is that many players do not consider FFA non-consensual PvP to be "fun" or "creative"  and thus developers looking to develop a "fun and creative MMO" will look elsewhere for the features they want in the game.  Personally, I consider FFA non-consensual PvP to be Lowest Common Denominator content that's put in because the devs do not feel like being creative.

Originally posted by BartDaCat
Originally posted by silvermember

OP what you really want is a way to relieve your memory not necessarily the Original EQ. The reason why a lot of people hold their first MMO assuming is good to such a high esteem is the same reason why a lot of old  people are fond of the 50s. It is because it was a new experience, an unprecedented experience you hadn't felt before it was a new world different from the boring one you had.

It also doesn't help that the memories you have are probably fake because you either choose to ignore the back subconsciously or willingly. A lot of people tend to forget the bad when they go down memory lane.


And THIS ^ representation of today's gaming community, OP, is why you miss the "old days".  I think this poster was lucky that the built-in spell checker was MOSTLY on duty.  How does one "ignore the back", anyway?  Is that like a 'massage' reference?  Silvermember must give great Happy Endings, hence the name.

WOW.  A single typo and you drudge out the "kids these days" spiel.  He clearly was trying to say "ignore the bad".  I can kinda understand not liking the run-on sentences and generally awkward sentence structure but you had to get picky about a single, understandable typo.

Did you see that the OP said  "now adays" in his first paragraph and then used "experiances" twice in a later section?  You must think the OP is a drooling idiot.


Originally posted by Flyte27
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
I think most of those things were actually intended.I have trouble believing any intelligent devwould not think that giving dungeons charm mez slow or fear would nut help them kill a mob. Same with pulling. That people would get together to sell wad intended. They just didn't know where it would happen our if it would be one or several places.

Obviously some of those things were intended for a use, but in the cases I listed they weren't intended for that purpose.  They didn't expect people to sell ports/buffs for cash.  It was just something to help people get around.  They didn't expect people to use snare, fear, charm, and things of that nature for kiting mobs.  Kiting wasn't intended.  Those were all things to help when grouping with other people.  Yes people were intended to trade with one another, but not to form up large bazaar like consortiums on their own.  The holy trinity and solo classes weren't intended.  They were created via the player base.  All the descriptions that you see in modern EQ came from the players.  They weren't there originally when picking a class.  You were generally expected to group in the game period.  Soloing was an unintended thing.

You are giving the players too much credit and the devs too little.   It's like giving someone a bike and then being suprised that they person decided to ride the bike.  Anyone with a grasp of economics would have predicted them forming of trading areas.  People with special, in-demand skils traded their services for cash like has been done since barter was invented.  Spells meant to stop a mob from doing damage to a player, were used to kil the mobs without them being able to do damage to the players.  The simple fact that a solo player could kill a mob and gain xp made solo classes possible.   Even the holy trinity was entirely predictable since the mechanics have been used in video and tabletop games long before EQ. 

The devs would have to have been naive and/or incompetent to not have predicted most of what happened.  They would not have known how it shape up in the long run but in the short run most of the stuff was easy to foresee. 

It is not easy to design a system that incentivizes players enough to play those types of roles while at the same time prevent it from being exploited. 
Originally posted by Flyte27
Most people didn't know any optimal path of progression.  It took a long while before I figured out the layout of the zones and where I could go and not go.  You may be referring to guides published by players, but you didn't have to follow those.   You might have learned of optimal areas for certain level ranges over time if you looked hard outside of game. 

EQ didn't really tell you anything about classes.  You basically picked a class and went at it.  I didn't even realize EQ was a group oriented game when it first came out.  I played as a Ranger solo for a long time until I got frustrated that I couldn't progress very well without a group.  Then I tried other classes to see how they would fair solo.  The holy trinity wasn't created by the developers.  It was created by the players.  The solo classes/kiting was also invented by the players.  The devs didn't intent any of it.  They just threw out some D&D 2nd edition classes with some slight modifications.  Nothing was really set in stone.  That's part of what made it great.  There was no raiding, holy trinity, trading areas, ports/buffs for money, etc.  It was all invented by the player base.

I would like to point out that most of the things you described were also true of World of Worldcraft when it was released.   People starting with the game did not know about holy trinity, grouping rules, loot rules, raiding rules, etc.  They picked all the stuff up as they progressed through the game and encountered content that required it.

Originally posted by UsualSuspect

That would be great, let them go to another game, get rid of the disease of solo whiners and let's get the people who want to actually play an online game back into the genre. Those 'features', as you put it, appeal to the brainless masses who just want to stare zombie like at the screen, pressing buttons until they get bright flashes of colour and cheery sounds to praise them for how 'amazing' they are at playing the game.

Yeah, I wouldn't shed any tears if they up and left.

As opposed to the features that appealed to the brainless zombies who like old school games like EQ?

Originally posted by Azrile
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

Now if you get slapped in jail and you're account is locked to that character it makes a difference.  Even if you have more then one account you still can't kill or face the same treatment.  It also makes the community want to be more involved.  Its tough getting motivated to protect those who can't if the perps are right back over and over and over.  That's why I support a system of locking players up who kill outside of the desired bounds.  

To me that has always seemed like the most effective solution to this 'problem'.  Unfortunately there are very few PvPers who are hardcore enough to want to play under that kind of system.


If the only people who don't play are the people who aren't going to follow the rules with the spirit of the game in mind, wouldn't that mean the method was successful?


Exactly, you want to get rid of all the kiddie pks who run around just trying to be idiots...  but yet encourage the PKs who want to be notorious and play the bad guy within the confines of the ruleset you establish.   But is that possible.

The problem is that in order to get rid of the 'kiddies' you have to make the penalties actually hurt and they have to apply to everyone.  The PK who 'plays by the rules' will be caught sooner or later and the penalty will make him reconsider whether he wants to keep playing the game or not.    Once the dedicated PKers quit, you are left with the non-PvP and/or consensual PvP crowd.  

If the penalties are too lax, the "kiddies" will find ways around them and nothing will really change.  If you make the panalties harsh enough to get rid of the "kiddies" then you are also forcing out "legitimate" PKer out of the game.


Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

Now if you get slapped in jail and you're account is locked to that character it makes a difference.  Even if you have more then one account you still can't kill or face the same treatment.  It also makes the community want to be more involved.  Its tough getting motivated to protect those who can't if the perps are right back over and over and over.  That's why I support a system of locking players up who kill outside of the desired bounds.  

To me that has always seemed like the most effective solution to this 'problem'.  Unfortunately there are very few PvPers who are hardcore enough to want to play under that kind of system.

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