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All Posts by Torik

All Posts by Torik

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Originally posted by nebb1234
Originally posted by mmorpglover1

Personally, this comes down to common sense.


There are the people who say 60 pounds is nothing to them so its ok but these people are not doing it cuz the money is nothing to them in my opinion.


They just lack common sense.


For example, a person with common sense who isn't a millionaire would think like this. I can buy wasteland 2 for 30 pounds or I can go onto and get it for 7 pounds, I could buy shadow of mordor for 40 pounds or I could get it for 14 pounds from for steam.


Now the senseible person would think, that's a big saving, with that extra money I can save it and buy another house to earn more rental income or buy a nicer car etc.


The person without common sense would say boastfully that's its not a lot of money for them so its ok and doesn't even bother to think forward to how many 1000s it adds up to over the years and how they could have multiplied their earnings if they invested their savings properly into bonds, isas or property.


Then there are the last class of people, the people who are multi millionaires and genuinely don't care about investing any of their money to multiply it. For them, its legitimate if they really want to pay 60 pounds for dragon age 3 on origin or get it off for less than 30 pounds today.


They can go for the more expensive option but if they do that, they still have no common sense. In my experience, those with foresight and common sense end up earning the real money and buy games at value for money prices while those who buy things at rip off prices and boast about how they can afford it actually lack common sense and end up poorer than others because they spend their lives wasting money.


Lets face it, for most people like me, every pound I save on a game goes into buying another property to earn rental income from and I don't own enough properties to make me a multi millionaire yet so there is added incentive not to behave stupidly and to buy games at 30 pounds instead of 60 when I can.


At launch, ie now dragon age 3 is 60 quid on origin and less than 30 on I know where I bought the game.

bleh. If you own rental properties then get off this site and find a wicked hot girl..... seriously wtf dude.......

Bah,  have some common sense.  Do you know how expensive dating a hot girl can get?  He would save a fortune by buying some lotion instead.

Originally posted by nilden
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by nilden
Originally posted by nariusseldon

It is tested ... like camping is highly unpopular, and people prefer instances. So no one "assumes" camping is bad .. it is bad because people are complaining about it.

I'm sorry but there is a huge market for non instanced games. Almost every time someone talks about a virtual world they imply no instances. There are already tons of games that are running live servers with no instancing.



As huge the instanced game market? .. including WoW, LoL, WoT, ....

If your going to bring LoL and WoT into the picture then I raise you every open world game including GTA.

As a single player game GTA is functionally closer to a heavy instance MMORPG like WoW than an open world MMORPG.  It's one big instance where other players cannot interfere with what your doing and the decisions you make do not affect other players' instances of the game.

Originally posted by WillowFuxxy
Originally posted by ReallyNow10
Originally posted by Varex12

Pure sandboxes don't make money.  AAA titles are run by big companies who like to make money.  Pretty simple, when you think about it.  

The pure sandbox game is reserved for the indie developers whose main goal is to draw some interest through niche marketing since they don't have the funds to provide that big budget feel in their games.   



Microsoft is buying the company that made Minecraft for $2 billion.

Linear games don't make money after initial box sales, would be closer to the truth.

people will just say two things

1. MineCraft is not an MMO because it doesnt have more than 64 players on a server

2. MineCraft is not an RPG therefore it doesnt count

3. MineCraft is not an indie because its owned by Microsoft.


hand to god...wait for it...

 1 & 2 are true no matter how you want to argue about this.  Small populations means that Minecraft does not have to deal with many of the issues a MMORPG faces and more importantly the person in charge of the server can tweak the sandbox nature of the server to fit his/her own specifications for a sandbox experience.Thus Minecraft by itself cannot prove this argument one way or another.  There are a number of single player sandbox games that would suffer serious problems if they were turned into MMORPGs without changing the game mechanics to fit the new format.

Originally posted by routesman

Eve Online could definitely be classified as 'brutally unforgiving'.


1) For the first year you're playing, you're just trying to figure out what's going on and how the basic mechanics of the game work.


2) For the first 6 months to year,  you are pretty limited in what ships you can fly and how you can fit them.  Which puts you at a disadvantage if people are out to kill you.


3) If your ship blows up, its gone.  There is no respawn with all your stuff still on you.


4) Once you are outside the starter systems, its open market.  If someone scams you, CCP isn't going to undo the deal.  


Now I'm not saying Eve is a bad game; frankly, I love Eve because of how brutal it is.  But its probably the most brutal game out there right now.

EVE likes to punish gamblers and people looking for a challenge but I would hardly call it "brutally unforgiving".  When you die you do not lose any of your money or items in stations.  For most players a single death is more of an annoyance that you easily recover from. 

Unless a MMORPG has permadeath, I would not call it "brutally unforgiving".

Originally posted by Kyleran

But as Jean-Luc said, if the guild wants to require it, their rules, and I just make sure I don't join up with any organization that wants this, I don't expect them to adapt to my play style.



This reminds me of my early days in Earth and Beyond.  There was a major guild on our servers who started requiring their members to only log off in one specific location.  This got them a lot of ridicule from the other guilds.  I was part of a guild based on a live-and-live policy and we got a major surge of recruits shortly after this while the guild with the silly rules quickly dwindled. 

Originally posted by lizardbones

I think what could be said to be true is that games are moving towards a model where Guilds are not necessary to see most content available.  Even if players can level solo, they will run into a wall where Grouping is the only or best way through.


Maybe then guilds will return to their original function as social gatherings rather than the "group delivery mechanisms" that they have become due to the massive focus on grouping and raiding.


I would love if all MMORPGs copied the system from A Tale in the Desert where a player could belong to multiple guilds that then could be as generic or as specialized as people wanted.

Originally posted by DMKano

Freedom from others to impact you in any negative way, also make the positive impact lose meaning.

Removing the bad aspects also dulls the goods aspects thus delivering an overall bland experience.

To experience the highest highs you must endure the lowest of lows.

As Slayer put it succinctly - There is no heaven without hell



That's a very shallow way to look at things. 

My  best experiences playing MMORPGs come from maximizing the positive impact I have on other players in games where negative impacts are eliminated or minimized.  In fact I would say that adding negative impacts dulls the effect of the positive ones and makes them meaningless. 

Frankly, I pity people who need bad things to happen to them in order to appreciate the good ones.

Originally posted by allday88

I play in a mens hockey league...takes me 30 min to drive to the rink, 15 min to get ready, and we get an hour and a half to play.  Sometimes the other teams goalie doesn't show, sometimes we are short players, sometimes the other teams doesn't have enough players, sometimes we get killed we are all at the whim and wishes of who shows up.  At no point would anyone complain they should play in the league by themselves.  


You have a valid observation there.  You are willing to put up with all those incoveniences because you have fun playing no matter what happens.  I bet if there were serious rewards given to the winning team then the people in your league would take this more seriously and you would get the same type of complaints as we get in MMORPGs.


The simple fact is that way too many people are doing group/raid content because it is the only way to get powerful gear.  Few do it simply for the challenge and/or enjoyment.  I know that there are a few encounters that I want to do even if they give no reward and there are plenty others which I refuse to do unless the bribe is big enough.

My solution is to massively nerf the rewards given out by group content and then group content will become just like allday88's hockey league, a fun hobby for those who enjoy it.   Players who do not enjoy grouping content can participate in other cooperative activities that the game should offer and thus have fun on their own terms without having to be bribed into doing content they find uninteresting.

Originally posted by Horusra
Being forced to be in a group is not social. Wanting to be in a group is. The current generations only know forced grouping. Asheron's Call was about as solo a game as you could get, but I meet some of the best people that mostly did their own thing, but came together for the big stuff.

Exactly.  For me A Tale in the Desert was the most social MMORPG I played and that game does not even have grouping mechanic.  Instead it has systems that make it convenient for players to come together in an ad-hoc fashion and cooperate.

As others here, I do not see what the OP did as a scam.  There was no deception there, just an asymmetry of information caused by the buyer's laziness.  The OP gave the buyer exactly what the buyer expected to get and received in return the amount the seller was expecting to pay. 
Originally posted by FelixMajor

It keeps coming up because the people who never understood why the RPGs and MMORPGs were initially designed these ways was to allow a playstyle more similar to DnD playsets and rules.  Ex.  The roll of the dice determining an outcome.  The RPGs like this were more of a semi cinematic, and more strategic.  You would need to think about the fight, think about your options and the outcomes/consequences.



The problem with this line of thinking is that MMORPG's do not really play like PnP RPGS in the long run.  PnP campaigns do not have a grind since if the campaign gets too repetive and boring, the players simply threaten to  replace the GM and the pace improves.  The reliance for grinds a filler will always differentite MMORPGs from old school PnP RPGs.

Originally posted by Sevala
Originally posted by Octagon7711

I never got to play but didn't any of the players warn the devs what they were about to do was going to be a disaster?  Makes you think maybe dev board meetings could use about 25 actual high standing community players to represent the voice of the customer.  How many mmo's have been destroyed with a well meant expansion / update?

That was part of the problem. Players were upset because nobody knew how to become a Jedi.  So the dev gave them hints.  Then players were upset because Jedi never left their houses.  So the Devs created forced pvp for Jedi that pushed them out of their houses if they activated a Jedi skill.  Then players were upset cause Jedi was hiding.  So the Devs fixed the tracking system.  Then players were upset because it was too difficult to become a Jedi.  So the Devs made Jedi a regular profession.  Not to mention the usual cry about op skills and constant nerfs.  And that was just about Jedi, imagine constant demands being made by just about all the classes and professions.


Some of the players. All the whiny cry baby Jedi wanna-bes who wanted instant gratification and didn't want to do anything or work on anything.


The intelligent player base, did in fact warn the Devs, every...EVERY step of the way, but Sony doesn't care or listen to people.


The Jedi hologrind was another massive fail on SOE's part.  They reduced the most iconic part of the IP into a mindless grind.  I found it highly insulting to me as a fan and a player.  It was just another example of the grind-focused lowest common denominator thinking that wrecked that game. 

The game was designed with very ambitious high concept systems but once it was released, the devs tried to solve the game's issues by hiding everything behind grinds rather than actually try and evolve those systems

Originally posted by Rydeson
     There were many games in the past that were innovative and exciting to play..  Some like EQ1 and SWG had few major issues that should of been addressed and corrected..  However instead the devs sat on their asses and did nothing until it was too late, then tossed the baby out with the bath water..  Both EQ1 and SWG are worth playing as a primary MMO game to play if they would just FIX some of the main issues.  I'm confident that as a lead dev along with a few chatters on this forum we could turn both those games into Top 5 gaming communities..  But then I'm not part of the inner "incompetent" circle of industry devs.. 

I would not be so sure about your conclusion.  When I played SWG, I noticed some fundamental issues with the game that seemed to be caused by deficiencies in the core engine.   I have always believed that the buggy nature of the game was caused by the devs trying to fit in their features around those deficiencies and as a result piling one hack on top of another.  (It's an issue I regularly encounter with legacy code).  My theory is that the NGE came about because they realized that they already had to open up and rework the core parts of the game and decided that this gave them the opportunity to redisign how the game functioned.

Originally posted by Phry
the problem is that WoW far exceeded those kinds of numbers, and the pressure was on then to gain those kinds of figures, it wrecked the game, first with the hologrind, the CU and the NGE, which pretty much just killed the game completely.


The Jedi Holgrind actually predated WoW by a good six months.  I see it as a direct precursor to the NGE since to many SWG players at the time, including me, it heralded the fact that SOE was creatively spent.  In many ways it was an insult to the players as it treated them as sheep who would engage in a mindless grind, just so they could play Jedi.   It was one of the many reason that prompted most of my SWG guild to quit long before CU or NGE.

Originally posted by IMPYRE
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
I found swg to be s horrible boring game.


I am with you on that. The had to make changes. People were leaving.


1. SWG released 2003

2. WoW released 2004 (WoW a phenom of subscribers)

3. SWG Combat Upgrade 2005 (Mixed emotions of player base about CU)

4. SWG NGE Upgrade 2005 (Let's make our game more like WoW and grab more subscribers, let's make it more Star Warsy with iconic professions) (Mass exodus of veterans and what's left of the player base stay due to their love of Star Wars).

5. SWG cancelled 2011 for a game called SWtOR that would be Star Wars version of WoW.

That's about it.

edited for this video ->



What most SWG fans seem to ignore is the exodus of players between points 1 and 2.  CU was just being announced, few people thought much about WoW and early SWG players started to leave the game because they hit a dead end and run out of stuff to do in the game.  My guild had an active fully upgraded player city and in the span of a few weeks it was dead as most inhabitants just quit to play CoH, EVE or Planetside. Those were the players who managed to play through the incredibly buggy early period.  

For me the big change that started SWG's decline was the Jedi Hologrind.  SOE took the most iconic thing about Star Wars and turned it into a lowest common denominator grind.  This signalled to a lot of players that they run out of creative ideas and would not expand on the sandbox nature of the game. 

NGE was the reaction to the hemmorrage of players that the game experienced during that period.

Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by MumboJumbo

Generally there are 2 types of quality of immersion recognized by 2 schools of thought for mmorpgs:-

1. Narrative-driven, high quality story content crafted by devs. People seem to mention The Secret World for this type of mmo-rpg. Alternatively  a rich IP you like realized and the players are apt to role-play eg LOTRs is mentioned in this respect or ESO if you love that IP. GW2 would shower you in a beautifully crafted art rich content world by comparison if you like the tourist safari version of immersion. 

2. Player-driven, usually but not always involves open pvp (dangerous player vs player anywhere) where the players actions create a post-hoc narrative. A good eg is rogue-likes where each "run" can use a formula that churns out a new experience recombining different elements. Can often be lower quality but can also offer genuine excitement and surprise. Examples would be EVE Online or Darkfall amongst others.

These are often called Themepark mmorpg (1) or Sandbox (2). It's subjective but the above 2 options are a good distinction to use.

I like where you went with that. :) 

For player-driven immersion, EVE Online has an incredibly dark and frighteningly real dystopia that I think is fascinating. For narrative-driven immersion, Age of Conan and The Secret World seem to do a good job of drawing one into the story, the latter moreso than the former. 

For player-driven immersion it very much depends on the player.  Personally I found EVE's PvP features to be the least immersive parts of the game as I see it as incredibly artificial and meaningless.  On the other hand I got great immersion out of the mining and manufacturing systems. 

The game where I got the most player-driven immersion was A Tale in the Desert.  If you are really into that type of game, it's really easy to find a niche in the game that will give you hours of immersive enjoyment.  The various communal projects were great and I spent hours on the wine making minigame as well as perfecting my linen production infrastructure.

Originally posted by 3-4thElf
Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by 3-4thElf

If you're a ruthless solo ganker, then armies find you and make your game time tough.

If you're a gank squad, there will be a bigger squad to hunt you guys down and make it harder for you to find people.

If that were true, there would not be need for this discussion.  The reality is that the in-game solutions are laughably inadequate and most of the time amount to barely a slap on the wrist.  Heck, a lot of the time the 'punishment' is the equivalent to a parent punishing a kid by telling him to play video games and eat ice cream. 

If a FFA PvP game actually had a meaningful punishment system then I would give it a try.

It is true. There's only one game with it now, but that's just due to the other ones getting super dated graphically.

EvE's very real. 

It exists.

The way players regulate how all aspects of the game is played is a bit much for new comers to grasp, but that's not the game's fault.

The problem isn't gankers, it's people making things up.

I played EVE at multiple points over its existence and I find the punishment system to be laughable.  It might work on the meta scales of alliances and sov ownership but it does little for the casual players.  A dedicated ganker cannot really be seriously affected by any of the punishment systems in the game since they are so easy to work around.   Heck, It's a game where suicide ganking is a well established method for players to make money. 

Originally posted by 3-4thElf

If you're a ruthless solo ganker, then armies find you and make your game time tough.

If you're a gank squad, there will be a bigger squad to hunt you guys down and make it harder for you to find people.

If that were true, there would not be need for this discussion.  The reality is that the in-game solutions are laughably inadequate and most of the time amount to barely a slap on the wrist.  Heck, a lot of the time the 'punishment' is the equivalent to a parent punishing a kid by telling him to play video games and eat ice cream. 

If a FFA PvP game actually had a meaningful punishment system then I would give it a try.

Originally posted by YoungCaesar
I love this thread logic, FFA pvp games can only survive if carebears stay, but why would carebears play a FFA pvp game in the first place?

Answer:  The game offers gameplay options that cannot be found in another game and thus players are wiling to 'suffer' through the FFA PvP. 


Personally, I have tried playing EVE twice over the last ten years but after months of playing the PvP aspect just got to be too much for me.  I like a ton of stuff about EVE but not the FFA PvP. 


That's just Day 1, right?  I know that I did not buy the game until the weekend because I did not have the time to play it during the week. 

How does it compare to the first week and first month sales of current MMORPGs?

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