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All Posts by Torik

All Posts by Torik

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Whenever I see a system like that proposed, the cynic in me starts to wonder if the main purpose of a mining/harvesting/crafting system like this is simply to provide lazy PvPers with an easy source of in-game income where they simply get to steal what other players spent a lot of time making. 

Where is the option for:

-use the dead character's skin for a belt and his/her skull as a drinking cup.

Originally posted by Boldyn
Originally posted by Torik
/Dislike.  Only really works if you know who DayBreak are and "SWG license " transfered does not really mean anything.  A good April's Fools gets people excited before they discover that they were fooled.  This one has as much relevance as me claiming that I ate a cookie today and then claiming that I fooled you since I did not eat a cookie today. 

Now you have me all confused. Did you or did you not eat a cookie today?


If you didn't, does that mean the cookie is also a lie? Soon all pastry will be lies :/

It was actually a Chocolate Covered Hazelnut Wafer Bar.  Never expected that twist, did you?  :)

Originally posted by Malabooga
Originally posted by Gaendric
Originally posted by CrazKanuk
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by CrazKanuk
Originally posted by Thebeasttt
You could literally stream burning all the kickstarter money live and theirs nothing the pledges could do about it, aside from let the Secret Service know you're destroying government property :p

Completely inaccurate. There's already been lawsuits, soooooooo, yeah, you're wrong. 

And the result was... ? Yeah, thought so.

Meh, Might kinda be like someone reporting that 0% of video games funded through Kickstarter were completed...... as of June 2009. As far as I know, the lawsuit I'm talking about was filed less than a year ago, so it's entirely possible it hasn't even gone to court yet. 

Well there was a case where the lawsuit forced the KS project leader to go into bankruptcy. 

That was a physical product though that he promised to deliver, but couldn't.  (plus the KS project owner went on KS without making a company for it, which is a huge rookie mistake) 

One of the backers was a lawyer who basically sued him because "It just ticked him off".

( )


"On November 28, Quest admitted defeat. There were too many internal conflicts and engineering problems to bring Hanfree to life. Quest notified all of the backers, Singh included, that they would not be receiving the iPad stand, and their money would be returned to them.

Singh wasn't satisfied. He sued Quest and Cespedes, although the suit against Cespedes was eventually dropped.

"Seth just stalled, and stalled, and stalled," Singh explained to Inc. "For me, this is why I became a lawyer. I guess I'm more of an idealist than anything else. It just ticked me off."

The lawsuit made Quest bankrupt. He spent last year in Brooklyn, dealing with lawsuit-induced anxiety and trying to find part-time work, which he says was difficult given his tainted reputation from Hanfree. Now he's in Costa Rica figuring out what to do next.

"When you fail on Kickstarter, it's a very public failure," Quest tells Inc. "It definitely derailed my career substantially. Your backers can give you massive support, but they can also tear you down if you fail."

Kickstarter, of course, took no hit. It's technically not to blame if a product fails to deliver or if someone isn't qualified to create a product.

For Quest, it was a very tough lesson to learn. But Singh isn't sympathetic.

"I'm convinced this was more stupidity than it was fraud," Singh says. "He just didn't think this through."


So, even if he got the money back the lawyer still sued author. And when he lost he claims "it was just for the kicks"

Says more about lawyers than anything else.

I read some of the comments on the article and one claimed that the story is incomplete and thus misleading.  Allegedly Quest never paid out the promised refunds and the bankrupty was actually caused by a number of other lawsuits the guy was facing for unpaid credit card bills.  Frankly, this version makes more sense to me than what the article claimed.

/Dislike.  Only really works if you know who DayBreak are and "SWG license " transfered does not really mean anything.  A good April's Fools gets people excited before they discover that they were fooled.  This one has as much relevance as me claiming that I ate a cookie today and then claiming that I fooled you since I did not eat a cookie today. 
Originally posted by Flyte27
Most people will always take the path of least resistance as shown by the games that are coming out today.

Camp grinding is the path of least resistance.

Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Robsolf

Whatever happened to camping for XP?

The Milkman, the Paperboy, evening TV?

Saturday morning cartoons, even? 


Originally posted by Stone_Fountain

Necessity leads people to form groups, guilds and log into a forum. Good guilds of like-minded people succeed in games that make raids or large groups to tackle content a necessity. From experience, joining pick-up groups and raids usually ends up with little in reward besides experience. Joining a guild offers one a chance to advance in such a difficult environment. Games that are so difficult they require groups or at least, soloers who have learned how to manage tough encounters are much more likely to have thriving communities. 


This viewpoint clashes with my own personal experiences.  Back in the pre-WoW days I joined a guild purely for social reasons.  We did not group up regularly and we mostly did our own thing.  Yet the guild grew really large, we had a lot of emergent content and we ended up with a thriving community despite not doing any difficult group or raid content.  We continued to thrive even as we moved to WoW and played extremely casually. 

It was only when decided to start doing the raids that our community started to fray.  Raid scheduling and loot distribution started creating conflicts and factions formed with what was once a unified guild.  A few months later the guild imploded.

Guilds formed in order to conquer difficult content tend to be exclusionary in nature and do not inspire loyalty.  More laid back casual guilds are needed to get a thriving community.


Originally posted by Pepeq

Now you would have had a better argument if you used the Beta versus VHS tape recorder... Beta was clearly a superior device and format but it was a proprietary platform made by Sony.  VHS on the other hand was an open format, so even though it was lesser quality overall, it was far cheaper to mass produce and you didn't have to pay a royalty to Sony every time they used the format to put a movie out.  So you see, cheaper often wins out over better.


So in conclusion, the key is to get the public to buy your product, by any means necessary, and you will automatically *win* even if you should have lost.

There is also the fact that just because something is technologically superior, does not automatically make it a better product.  Cost and availability are just as important.  The advantages of Beta ended up being outweighed by the advantages of VHS.  

Originally posted by Kyleran

There you go with that "fun" word, no I would call losing a ship fun at all, but the thread was about when your heart skipped a beat and yes, probably would skip 2 beats if it was 1/10th of my wealth.

Never mistake enjoying the thrill of  the chase, or being chased with something like "fun", totally different experiences.

I enjoy doing many things that aren't considered fun, like putting in a hard days work in the yard, or running that extra mile, but none of those are really fun. 

I think that might be a language issue.  I was under the impression that "fun" and "enjoyment" were mostly synonomous.  ie fun=source of enjoyment.  If I enjoy working in the yard all day then it was a fun activity.  If it was not a fun activity then I would not have enjoyed it. 

I think you are conflating two related by distinct events.  The chase is thrilling and thus enjoyable/fun but losing the ship in not enjoyable/fun.   It is the difference between gambling and just setting your money on fire.


Originally posted by Nightbringe1
Originally posted by SuperXero89
why does there have to be a death penalty?  It's not always about the skill of the player.  There's plenty of ways MMOs stick you with cheap deaths that can't be avoided.  Why lose hours of progress or be forced to AFK for 10 minutes just because extra mobs decided to spawn on top of you?

Without a death penalty, there is no drive to learn, to progress skills, or to gear up before level cap is reached.

A game with a strong death penalty means people reaching level cap are going to be more invested in their characters, more proficient with the game mechanics, and less likely to view zerging as a viable play style.

It also weeds out the players without the patience to learn the game or gear as they level. Those players will quickly grow frustrated with their inability to advance.

I call BS on this. 

It is not my problem that you are not motivated enough to try and get better at the game you play so you need extra punishment to force you to become a good player.   If I like the game, I will strive to become better at it and failure to complete an objective will motivate me to try different approaches until I succeed.  I do not need the threat of having to spend hours grinding pointless content just because my tactics were flawed or my concentration slipped for a second. 

Harsh death penalties are a poor attempt to motivate the bad players.  For players who want to challenge themselves, they act as a demotivator by making players less willing to experiment and instead settle for safe, boring tactics.

Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by Dammam
Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by BadSpock

So the real TL:DR is:

Open world is bad for theme parks, and good for sandboxes.

The more you try and mix and match, the more muddled and watered down the experience becomes - you can't please everyone, aim for your target players, and fill their needs.

The real problem tends to be with the way open worlds are implemented.   Too often they tend to be grindfests which go against bot the Hero Bob and Farmer Bob playstyle.  Despite appearance, Farmer Bob also wants to progress in a meanigful way but in a more measured way by building up the environment around them.  A boring Open World is just as anti-sandbox as it is anti-themepark.

I agree with this sentiment. I think the idea of an open world has always been part of the allure of MMORPGs, and though a good implementation can be challenging, I don't think it's fair to write off the idea entirely.

Well, to be honest I have always felt that grind had NO place in sandbox, where as grind/chasing carrots is a necessary component of the themepark.

I've always thought of the sandbox as a blank canvas, and the developers hand you a series of tools in which to craft your own story.

Problem is, most sandbox games go too far on the RPG side and ask you to grind for XX hours in order to use the tools.

It's like, hey - over here in the sandbox is this dump truck - it's really cool, you can move tons of sand at once with it... oh but in order to use it, first you have to dig with your hands for 97 hours.

Where as in themepark, it's - hey, there is this cool ride over here, but you have to be this ^ tall to ride - but that's ok, there are these rides over here that are more your current speed for now.

I think it's because themepark shows you your goals, dangles them in front of you as a place to reach - so having to grind a bit, chase that carrot, is really ok.

Where as sandbox, well you should be setting your own goals, and if you have to beat your head against a wall for eons to get there, it really takes away from the experience.

Yeah, they shouldn't just give you everything you want quickly, as the goals would then be meaningless, but I think a sandbox like Minecraft works because you can see your progress so clearly. Like if I'm building a castle, yeah there is going to be some grinding to strip mine enough materials, but I can lay the foundation.. and then build the outer walls, and then build the towers, and etc. etc. the progress is measured, meaningful, and personal.

Much better, imo, than "hey, in order to use this fancy new Greatsword +5 I just made, I have to first grind skeletons in the bone room (UO reference anyone?) for hours and hours and hours over many days/weeks to skill up my Greatsword use skill from 70-85.

That just isn't fun.

That was my main issue with SWG which I still consider the best example of MMORGP sandbox.  The game required you to do a massive amount of mindless grinding in order to reach the creative content that made the game so interesting.  I am actually all for grinding that teaches you to get better at a task but SWG had grinds that required you to move the mouse and click on a button over and over.  It was an activity that taught you nothing, produced nothing of value and made my mouse hand cramp up for a week.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Well what does this have to do with open world?


The open world is necessary for a sandbox as limiting players and their interactions and in a sense forcing them into "heroic" activity in your carefully scripted encounters is directly opposed to the intended goal of freedom and the responsibility of forging your own destiny.

The open world is a major hindrance to the themepark sub genre as it highlights and accentuates the obvious problem of everyone being the hero and doing heroic things - making nothing truly matter or have any impact. 


So the real TL:DR is:

Open world is bad for theme parks, and good for sandboxes.

The more you try and mix and match, the more muddled and watered down the experience becomes - you can't please everyone, aim for your target players, and fill their needs.

The real problem tends to be with the way open worlds are implemented.   Too often they tend to be grindfests which go against bot the Hero Bob and Farmer Bob playstyle.  Despite appearance, Farmer Bob also wants to progress in a meanigful way but in a more measured way by building up the environment around them.  A boring Open World is just as anti-sandbox as it is anti-themepark.

Originally posted by Mithrundir
I like my mmo's to be as realistic as possible, instances aren't realistic, so I would much rather prefer an open world (sandbox) mmo over a theme park. Same thing with my pvp, doing an instanced 12v12 or whatever in the same instances over and over isn't realistic, so I play open world rvr pvp (much more realistic).

MMORPG PvP is highly unrealisticand open world PvP is more unrealistic then tournament style PvP. 

Also I find instanced dungeons much more realistic then open world ones since it is highly unrealistic to have multiple groups camping the same dungeon for hours waiting for respawns.

Tabletop RPG features as translated to MMORPGs:


-everything is instanced

-instant travel between encounters

-very little grind

-consensual PvP only

Originally posted by nebb1234
Originally posted by mmorpglover1

Personally, this comes down to common sense.


There are the people who say 60 pounds is nothing to them so its ok but these people are not doing it cuz the money is nothing to them in my opinion.


They just lack common sense.


For example, a person with common sense who isn't a millionaire would think like this. I can buy wasteland 2 for 30 pounds or I can go onto and get it for 7 pounds, I could buy shadow of mordor for 40 pounds or I could get it for 14 pounds from for steam.


Now the senseible person would think, that's a big saving, with that extra money I can save it and buy another house to earn more rental income or buy a nicer car etc.


The person without common sense would say boastfully that's its not a lot of money for them so its ok and doesn't even bother to think forward to how many 1000s it adds up to over the years and how they could have multiplied their earnings if they invested their savings properly into bonds, isas or property.


Then there are the last class of people, the people who are multi millionaires and genuinely don't care about investing any of their money to multiply it. For them, its legitimate if they really want to pay 60 pounds for dragon age 3 on origin or get it off for less than 30 pounds today.


They can go for the more expensive option but if they do that, they still have no common sense. In my experience, those with foresight and common sense end up earning the real money and buy games at value for money prices while those who buy things at rip off prices and boast about how they can afford it actually lack common sense and end up poorer than others because they spend their lives wasting money.


Lets face it, for most people like me, every pound I save on a game goes into buying another property to earn rental income from and I don't own enough properties to make me a multi millionaire yet so there is added incentive not to behave stupidly and to buy games at 30 pounds instead of 60 when I can.


At launch, ie now dragon age 3 is 60 quid on origin and less than 30 on I know where I bought the game.

bleh. If you own rental properties then get off this site and find a wicked hot girl..... seriously wtf dude.......

Bah,  have some common sense.  Do you know how expensive dating a hot girl can get?  He would save a fortune by buying some lotion instead.

Originally posted by nilden
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by nilden
Originally posted by nariusseldon

It is tested ... like camping is highly unpopular, and people prefer instances. So no one "assumes" camping is bad .. it is bad because people are complaining about it.

I'm sorry but there is a huge market for non instanced games. Almost every time someone talks about a virtual world they imply no instances. There are already tons of games that are running live servers with no instancing.



As huge the instanced game market? .. including WoW, LoL, WoT, ....

If your going to bring LoL and WoT into the picture then I raise you every open world game including GTA.

As a single player game GTA is functionally closer to a heavy instance MMORPG like WoW than an open world MMORPG.  It's one big instance where other players cannot interfere with what your doing and the decisions you make do not affect other players' instances of the game.

Originally posted by WillowFuxxy
Originally posted by ReallyNow10
Originally posted by Varex12

Pure sandboxes don't make money.  AAA titles are run by big companies who like to make money.  Pretty simple, when you think about it.  

The pure sandbox game is reserved for the indie developers whose main goal is to draw some interest through niche marketing since they don't have the funds to provide that big budget feel in their games.   



Microsoft is buying the company that made Minecraft for $2 billion.

Linear games don't make money after initial box sales, would be closer to the truth.

people will just say two things

1. MineCraft is not an MMO because it doesnt have more than 64 players on a server

2. MineCraft is not an RPG therefore it doesnt count

3. MineCraft is not an indie because its owned by Microsoft.


hand to god...wait for it...

 1 & 2 are true no matter how you want to argue about this.  Small populations means that Minecraft does not have to deal with many of the issues a MMORPG faces and more importantly the person in charge of the server can tweak the sandbox nature of the server to fit his/her own specifications for a sandbox experience.Thus Minecraft by itself cannot prove this argument one way or another.  There are a number of single player sandbox games that would suffer serious problems if they were turned into MMORPGs without changing the game mechanics to fit the new format.

Originally posted by routesman

Eve Online could definitely be classified as 'brutally unforgiving'.


1) For the first year you're playing, you're just trying to figure out what's going on and how the basic mechanics of the game work.


2) For the first 6 months to year,  you are pretty limited in what ships you can fly and how you can fit them.  Which puts you at a disadvantage if people are out to kill you.


3) If your ship blows up, its gone.  There is no respawn with all your stuff still on you.


4) Once you are outside the starter systems, its open market.  If someone scams you, CCP isn't going to undo the deal.  


Now I'm not saying Eve is a bad game; frankly, I love Eve because of how brutal it is.  But its probably the most brutal game out there right now.

EVE likes to punish gamblers and people looking for a challenge but I would hardly call it "brutally unforgiving".  When you die you do not lose any of your money or items in stations.  For most players a single death is more of an annoyance that you easily recover from. 

Unless a MMORPG has permadeath, I would not call it "brutally unforgiving".

Originally posted by Kyleran

But as Jean-Luc said, if the guild wants to require it, their rules, and I just make sure I don't join up with any organization that wants this, I don't expect them to adapt to my play style.



This reminds me of my early days in Earth and Beyond.  There was a major guild on our servers who started requiring their members to only log off in one specific location.  This got them a lot of ridicule from the other guilds.  I was part of a guild based on a live-and-live policy and we got a major surge of recruits shortly after this while the guild with the silly rules quickly dwindled. 

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