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All Posts by Torik

All Posts by Torik

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Originally posted by Kyleran

Many of us play for the sense of accomplishment, achievement, victory, for cool looking gear, or completing a huge list of achievements, or get to the top of a leaderboard,  but definitely not for "fun".

 

You just listed all the things in WoW that I find incredibly fun.

The only accountability is that the developer has to make a good faith effort to give the backers the rewards that were promised in the campaign.  Failure to do so is fraud.  On the other hand "good faith" is a fairly low standard.
Originally posted by AlanGreyjoy

So... to be clear... you're saying you want an actual hands on crafting system... like what you would find on a Nintendo DS, but in an MMO?

 

... I never thought of that. That would bring a VERY large and new dynamic to mmo's.

 

Player: Where did you that sword?

Player2: From SoAndSo

Player: Ah, his swords are good, but his daggers are complete crap.

Player2: So i've heard.

 

Not that this would be hard to do.... but man it's a lot to think about.

In my game, i have it setup so that you can create your own recipes and blueprints. And the crafting is on a grid style crafting system.

 

You know...... if crafting and a controller where paired, I could pull off what you want. Thumb flicks for hammering on a sword, heat, pressure, cooling down the metal... This sounds pretty cool!

 

This reminds me of a situation that occurred when I played A Tale in the Desert.  At the time there was only one really good active blacksmith on the server.  Having a high quality hatchet saved you a ton of time but hatchets were very hard to make properly so everyone went to the that one player to get their hatchets.  The guy was clearly fed up with making hatchets all the time even if people were offering a lot in trade.   I think he quit the game a few times just so people stopped bugging him about making hatchets.

You have to be careful that you do not make a 'necessity' item too hard to obtain by requiring player skills that only a few posses.

 

Originally posted by bartoni33
Originally posted by kikoodutroa8
Originally posted by Slapshot1188

Uh-oh... Jason, James and Lumpyman better watch out!

 

http://massivelyop.com/2015/06/11/crowdfunded-game-developer-bows-to-ftc-pressure/

Someone at FTC is mad he didn't get his board game.

But hey, in order to avoid such problems with the law, I can imagine how failed KS mmos will now release half baked crap before closing. Like, if they release an half baked alpha and call it "release", even for 2 days, they can say they delivered their product and thus avoid being charged.

Well that would prolly be enough "legally" to get them out of hot water. In the case of the guy in the story he didn't even go that far.

My hope is that it will stop scammers from even trying. IMHO Greed Monger wasn't an out-and-out scam, at least in the beginning. But somewhere along the way they had to know they would not be able to deliver on their promises.

In this case the guy publicly stated that he hired artists to do the artwork and he had no way of proving that when the FTC came knocking.  He also charged personal items to the company.  Guess he was too sloppy and/or greedy to even fake "good faith" development of the game.

Originally posted by ikcin
Originally posted by Axehilt
Why is sandbox PVP casual?  Because it's diluted PVP.  Instead of being a pure contest of skill which is only won by skill, things like progression and population exist.

When a 5-man group is stomped by a higher-level 20-man group, nobody ever seriously said "wow those players are really skilled!" That's because it's fairly self-evident that those things don't require significant skill.  Asking 20 friends to join you and playing the game longer than someone else aren't things you would consider skill.  The former is a very shallow type of skill, and the latter just takes time (not skill.)

When a 5-man group is attacked by 20, they will flee if they can loose gear in fight /if not they will trolling around/, then they will search for allies or better skills and gear to outnumber or overforce their enemies. So 5 vs 20 leads to politics, crafting, farming, fight, competition and cooperation. While 5 vs 5 on arena leads to nothing. In the best case you will buy better gear. I'm curious what is this poorly made game you play.

Maybe in theory...

In practice most of the time the 5-man group will suck it up and wait till the 20 man group gets bored and moves on.  Then they will go back to what they are doing and maybe gank a single player to feel better. They will not spend weeks gearing up and training just to get revenge on the 20-man group that most likely has long forgotten the incident.

There is also the fact that people tend to detest politics in skill-based competitions because it corrupts the "spirit of the game".  Figure skating has a horrible rep because judges tend to vote 'politically'.  The current FIFA scandal is due to politics interfering in how football leagues and championships are handled. 

Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by ikcin

Most of us are normal people with normal life. We do not play MMO games to hide from some misery. We play games for fun - that means no grind, entertaining and challenging gameplay, competition and cooperation with other players. The risk to fail is funny, it makes the game entertaining. Challenges and competition are funny. Grind is boring. What will be football if both teams win? Absolutely idiotic game. Please keep your misery for yourself.

Right, and as normal people it's understood that things don't have to go out of their way to deliver punishment in order to have that contrast and variation.

Playing games for fun is at odds with playing games to experience excessive pain.  A pursuit of fun is normal.  A pursuit of pain is masochism.

We're not talking about removing failure: In Football, one team loses.  That's where it ends.  When you lose there is not some additional punishment where you lose 10% of your material assets to the other team.

So Football is a perfect example of a game having only as much penalty as is necessary, and no more.  Anything more is masochism.

If you lose too many times you don't win your division, don't go to the playoffs and have no shot a championship until next year.

So let's try that in an MMORPG, if you can't beat a dungeon in as many tries as the average of your peers in a 3 month period, you get locked out of the dungeon until next year.  Reading the forums of that game would be hilarious!

 

That is actually a seperate feature built on top of the game of football that is utilized by a miniscule fraction of football players.  I have played football since kindergarten and I never was part of a 'division' or competed for 'playoffs'.  Most football games are pickup games with no serious consequences for losing.

Originally posted by zekeofev

However, there was not the hand holding quest leveling systems that waypoint the next place to go like current MMOs. In DAOC and SWG you at least had to discover through world exploration good places to level or find resources (or hear about them from friends).

Are you forgetting the SWG mission terminals which told you to go to waypoints where a mob lair would spawn so you could kill it and then go to the next mission waypoint?  When I played SWG pre-CU that was the primary way for people to level.

Whenever I see a system like that proposed, the cynic in me starts to wonder if the main purpose of a mining/harvesting/crafting system like this is simply to provide lazy PvPers with an easy source of in-game income where they simply get to steal what other players spent a lot of time making. 

Where is the option for:

-use the dead character's skin for a belt and his/her skull as a drinking cup.

Originally posted by Boldyn
Originally posted by Torik
/Dislike.  Only really works if you know who DayBreak are and "SWG license " transfered does not really mean anything.  A good April's Fools gets people excited before they discover that they were fooled.  This one has as much relevance as me claiming that I ate a cookie today and then claiming that I fooled you since I did not eat a cookie today. 

Now you have me all confused. Did you or did you not eat a cookie today?

 

If you didn't, does that mean the cookie is also a lie? Soon all pastry will be lies :/

It was actually a Chocolate Covered Hazelnut Wafer Bar.  Never expected that twist, did you?  :)

Originally posted by Malabooga
Originally posted by Gaendric
Originally posted by CrazKanuk
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by CrazKanuk
Originally posted by Thebeasttt
You could literally stream burning all the kickstarter money live and theirs nothing the pledges could do about it, aside from let the Secret Service know you're destroying government property :p

Completely inaccurate. There's already been lawsuits, soooooooo, yeah, you're wrong. 

And the result was... ? Yeah, thought so.

Meh, Might kinda be like someone reporting that 0% of video games funded through Kickstarter were completed...... as of June 2009. As far as I know, the lawsuit I'm talking about was filed less than a year ago, so it's entirely possible it hasn't even gone to court yet. 

Well there was a case where the lawsuit forced the KS project leader to go into bankruptcy. 

That was a physical product though that he promised to deliver, but couldn't.  (plus the KS project owner went on KS without making a company for it, which is a huge rookie mistake) 

One of the backers was a lawyer who basically sued him because "It just ticked him off".

( http://www.businessinsider.com/how-one-stupid-mistake-and-35000-from-kickstarter-made-an-average-guy-bankrupt-2013-1 )

 

"On November 28, Quest admitted defeat. There were too many internal conflicts and engineering problems to bring Hanfree to life. Quest notified all of the backers, Singh included, that they would not be receiving the iPad stand, and their money would be returned to them.

Singh wasn't satisfied. He sued Quest and Cespedes, although the suit against Cespedes was eventually dropped.

"Seth just stalled, and stalled, and stalled," Singh explained to Inc. "For me, this is why I became a lawyer. I guess I'm more of an idealist than anything else. It just ticked me off."

The lawsuit made Quest bankrupt. He spent last year in Brooklyn, dealing with lawsuit-induced anxiety and trying to find part-time work, which he says was difficult given his tainted reputation from Hanfree. Now he's in Costa Rica figuring out what to do next.

"When you fail on Kickstarter, it's a very public failure," Quest tells Inc. "It definitely derailed my career substantially. Your backers can give you massive support, but they can also tear you down if you fail."

Kickstarter, of course, took no hit. It's technically not to blame if a product fails to deliver or if someone isn't qualified to create a product.

For Quest, it was a very tough lesson to learn. But Singh isn't sympathetic.

"I'm convinced this was more stupidity than it was fraud," Singh says. "He just didn't think this through."

 

So, even if he got the money back the lawyer still sued author. And when he lost he claims "it was just for the kicks"

Says more about lawyers than anything else.

I read some of the comments on the article and one claimed that the story is incomplete and thus misleading.  Allegedly Quest never paid out the promised refunds and the bankrupty was actually caused by a number of other lawsuits the guy was facing for unpaid credit card bills.  Frankly, this version makes more sense to me than what the article claimed.

/Dislike.  Only really works if you know who DayBreak are and "SWG license " transfered does not really mean anything.  A good April's Fools gets people excited before they discover that they were fooled.  This one has as much relevance as me claiming that I ate a cookie today and then claiming that I fooled you since I did not eat a cookie today. 
Originally posted by Flyte27
Most people will always take the path of least resistance as shown by the games that are coming out today.

Camp grinding is the path of least resistance.

Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Robsolf

Whatever happened to camping for XP?

The Milkman, the Paperboy, evening TV?

Saturday morning cartoons, even? 

Communism?

Originally posted by Stone_Fountain

Necessity leads people to form groups, guilds and log into a forum. Good guilds of like-minded people succeed in games that make raids or large groups to tackle content a necessity. From experience, joining pick-up groups and raids usually ends up with little in reward besides experience. Joining a guild offers one a chance to advance in such a difficult environment. Games that are so difficult they require groups or at least, soloers who have learned how to manage tough encounters are much more likely to have thriving communities. 

 

This viewpoint clashes with my own personal experiences.  Back in the pre-WoW days I joined a guild purely for social reasons.  We did not group up regularly and we mostly did our own thing.  Yet the guild grew really large, we had a lot of emergent content and we ended up with a thriving community despite not doing any difficult group or raid content.  We continued to thrive even as we moved to WoW and played extremely casually. 

It was only when decided to start doing the raids that our community started to fray.  Raid scheduling and loot distribution started creating conflicts and factions formed with what was once a unified guild.  A few months later the guild imploded.

Guilds formed in order to conquer difficult content tend to be exclusionary in nature and do not inspire loyalty.  More laid back casual guilds are needed to get a thriving community.

 

Originally posted by Pepeq

Now you would have had a better argument if you used the Beta versus VHS tape recorder... Beta was clearly a superior device and format but it was a proprietary platform made by Sony.  VHS on the other hand was an open format, so even though it was lesser quality overall, it was far cheaper to mass produce and you didn't have to pay a royalty to Sony every time they used the format to put a movie out.  So you see, cheaper often wins out over better.

 

So in conclusion, the key is to get the public to buy your product, by any means necessary, and you will automatically *win* even if you should have lost.

There is also the fact that just because something is technologically superior, does not automatically make it a better product.  Cost and availability are just as important.  The advantages of Beta ended up being outweighed by the advantages of VHS.  

Originally posted by Kyleran

There you go with that "fun" word, no I would call losing a ship fun at all, but the thread was about when your heart skipped a beat and yes, probably would skip 2 beats if it was 1/10th of my wealth.

Never mistake enjoying the thrill of  the chase, or being chased with something like "fun", totally different experiences.

I enjoy doing many things that aren't considered fun, like putting in a hard days work in the yard, or running that extra mile, but none of those are really fun. 

I think that might be a language issue.  I was under the impression that "fun" and "enjoyment" were mostly synonomous.  ie fun=source of enjoyment.  If I enjoy working in the yard all day then it was a fun activity.  If it was not a fun activity then I would not have enjoyed it. 

I think you are conflating two related by distinct events.  The chase is thrilling and thus enjoyable/fun but losing the ship in not enjoyable/fun.   It is the difference between gambling and just setting your money on fire.

 

Originally posted by Nightbringe1
Originally posted by SuperXero89
why does there have to be a death penalty?  It's not always about the skill of the player.  There's plenty of ways MMOs stick you with cheap deaths that can't be avoided.  Why lose hours of progress or be forced to AFK for 10 minutes just because extra mobs decided to spawn on top of you?

Without a death penalty, there is no drive to learn, to progress skills, or to gear up before level cap is reached.

A game with a strong death penalty means people reaching level cap are going to be more invested in their characters, more proficient with the game mechanics, and less likely to view zerging as a viable play style.

It also weeds out the players without the patience to learn the game or gear as they level. Those players will quickly grow frustrated with their inability to advance.

I call BS on this. 

It is not my problem that you are not motivated enough to try and get better at the game you play so you need extra punishment to force you to become a good player.   If I like the game, I will strive to become better at it and failure to complete an objective will motivate me to try different approaches until I succeed.  I do not need the threat of having to spend hours grinding pointless content just because my tactics were flawed or my concentration slipped for a second. 

Harsh death penalties are a poor attempt to motivate the bad players.  For players who want to challenge themselves, they act as a demotivator by making players less willing to experiment and instead settle for safe, boring tactics.

Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by Dammam
Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by BadSpock

So the real TL:DR is:

Open world is bad for theme parks, and good for sandboxes.

The more you try and mix and match, the more muddled and watered down the experience becomes - you can't please everyone, aim for your target players, and fill their needs.

The real problem tends to be with the way open worlds are implemented.   Too often they tend to be grindfests which go against bot the Hero Bob and Farmer Bob playstyle.  Despite appearance, Farmer Bob also wants to progress in a meanigful way but in a more measured way by building up the environment around them.  A boring Open World is just as anti-sandbox as it is anti-themepark.

I agree with this sentiment. I think the idea of an open world has always been part of the allure of MMORPGs, and though a good implementation can be challenging, I don't think it's fair to write off the idea entirely.

Well, to be honest I have always felt that grind had NO place in sandbox, where as grind/chasing carrots is a necessary component of the themepark.

I've always thought of the sandbox as a blank canvas, and the developers hand you a series of tools in which to craft your own story.

Problem is, most sandbox games go too far on the RPG side and ask you to grind for XX hours in order to use the tools.

It's like, hey - over here in the sandbox is this dump truck - it's really cool, you can move tons of sand at once with it... oh but in order to use it, first you have to dig with your hands for 97 hours.

Where as in themepark, it's - hey, there is this cool ride over here, but you have to be this ^ tall to ride - but that's ok, there are these rides over here that are more your current speed for now.

I think it's because themepark shows you your goals, dangles them in front of you as a place to reach - so having to grind a bit, chase that carrot, is really ok.

Where as sandbox, well you should be setting your own goals, and if you have to beat your head against a wall for eons to get there, it really takes away from the experience.

Yeah, they shouldn't just give you everything you want quickly, as the goals would then be meaningless, but I think a sandbox like Minecraft works because you can see your progress so clearly. Like if I'm building a castle, yeah there is going to be some grinding to strip mine enough materials, but I can lay the foundation.. and then build the outer walls, and then build the towers, and etc. etc. the progress is measured, meaningful, and personal.

Much better, imo, than "hey, in order to use this fancy new Greatsword +5 I just made, I have to first grind skeletons in the bone room (UO reference anyone?) for hours and hours and hours over many days/weeks to skill up my Greatsword use skill from 70-85.

That just isn't fun.

That was my main issue with SWG which I still consider the best example of MMORGP sandbox.  The game required you to do a massive amount of mindless grinding in order to reach the creative content that made the game so interesting.  I am actually all for grinding that teaches you to get better at a task but SWG had grinds that required you to move the mouse and click on a button over and over.  It was an activity that taught you nothing, produced nothing of value and made my mouse hand cramp up for a week.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Well what does this have to do with open world?

Everything.

The open world is necessary for a sandbox as limiting players and their interactions and in a sense forcing them into "heroic" activity in your carefully scripted encounters is directly opposed to the intended goal of freedom and the responsibility of forging your own destiny.

The open world is a major hindrance to the themepark sub genre as it highlights and accentuates the obvious problem of everyone being the hero and doing heroic things - making nothing truly matter or have any impact. 

 

So the real TL:DR is:

Open world is bad for theme parks, and good for sandboxes.

The more you try and mix and match, the more muddled and watered down the experience becomes - you can't please everyone, aim for your target players, and fill their needs.

The real problem tends to be with the way open worlds are implemented.   Too often they tend to be grindfests which go against bot the Hero Bob and Farmer Bob playstyle.  Despite appearance, Farmer Bob also wants to progress in a meanigful way but in a more measured way by building up the environment around them.  A boring Open World is just as anti-sandbox as it is anti-themepark.

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