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All Posts by tupodawg999

All Posts by tupodawg999

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Originally posted by Shrilly
Originally posted by immodium

I would like to see what Skyrim did. Remove quest XP all together. Keep quests for the story but XP is given to the activites involved within the quest. Not for handing them in.

Quests could still give coin/loot. Just no XP.

Could work. +1

 

Same. Separate it into mobs for xp and quests for some non xp reward: story, gear, coin, faction, keys whatever. That way you can pick and mix which quests you want to do and/or if you find a nice spot while questing you can get off the conveyor belt and grind mobs for a while.

 

The main problem with the current questing model (for me) is you have to do all the quests because the exp from mobs is so low. Separating the two allows people to just go off and explore and fight the mobs they find then come back and quest for a bit etc.

I'd say there are a few problems with an EQ type game now.

 

1. Time. I played EQ a ton when I had more time than I do now.

2. Social. EQ was a chat room with a game attached or a game with a chat room attached. Now social media is more widespread there's less reason for people who want to chat to join a social game. That doesn't mean there isn't a demand just a smaller one.

 

Having said that I still think there's a market for a game that has key elements which have been lost imo

1. Open world based on a consistent lore

2. most XP from mobs

3. most gear/special items/faction/money from (optional) quests

which leads into

4. Freedom

 

Having an open world design and most of the exp coming from mobs means every time you log on there can be a dozen or more spots you can go to level. Having lots of optional quests where the reward is something other than XP means you can pick and choose which quests you want to do and which to skip depending on if you need/want the reward. Also if outside mobs are generally weaker and soloable while dungeon / camp mobs are tougher and groupable then you can cater to both types of player.

 

There needs to be a solo option because of time and mood limits but the group option should be built in for weekends and sociable moods.

The leveling would need to be faster than old EQ but not too much.

Lost XP on death is good as not dying should be a test of skill but only if difficulty level is controllable.

Quests should all work.

 

edit: what i don't want and won't play any more is linear conveyor belts.

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by tupodawg999

There's crafting and there's trading. The trading economy part of crafting requires some kind of decay to maintain supply and demand.

 


 

That is not the only way. You can create new demand by having new tiers of gear (like WOW). You will then have a cyclical pattern of demand, instead of a steady level.

Who can say which is better.

 

That is decay - you just decayed the previous top tier.

Originally posted by Creslin321

Over the past few years there has been a lot of controversy over the Holy Trinity of MMORPGs (Tank, Healer, DPS).  Some people love it and some people hate it, some find themselves in-between.

Now, I've heard a lot of theories about why the Trinity is amazing, or why it is horrible.  As for myself, I've often wondered about what exactly it is about the Trinity that makes it so simultaneously beloved and hated, and if there would be any way to make an alternative to it that works just as well. 

To analyze this, let's start off with what attracts people to the Trinity.  IMO, the main aspect that makes the Trinity appealing is the fact that players get to have specialized, unique roles in a team that highly differentiates them from their fellow team-mates and gives them a sense of importance.  To illustrate why this specialization is good, just consider the following popular multiplayer games:

Team Fortress 2, DOTA 2/LOL, Payday 2, and Battlefield 3

What do all these games have in common?  They all allow the players to assume a specialized role in the team.  In TF2, Engineers defend the flag, while Scouts rush in and try to slip past defenses to grab the enemy flag.  In DOTA2, carries farm up enough gold to dominate late game, while supports try to keep their carries safe and disrupt the other team...etc. etc.

This roles make it feel like you are part of a team because it is not only necessary for your team to work together to succeed, but you also must work together as your roles dictate.  They FORCE you to work with the other players in a non-superficial way.  Without roles, it can often feel like the team is just independently contributing goal without really working together.

The Trinity offers this kind of specialization to an MMORPG.

 

Okay now that we looked at what is good about the Trinity...let's talk about what is bad about it.

1. While the Trinity offers specialization, it does so in a very asymmetric fashion.  Tanks and healers have a HUGE amount of responsibility to the group, and tanks have a very active and pretty fun role.  But DPS players are often just doing the same rotation over and over.

2.  In most Trinity games, players are essentially "locked" into one or maybe 2 roles on their character and it takes a SIGNIFICANT time investment to level another character and be able to play another role.  This means that if your tank doesn't show up, there's no raid...and this can be very frustrating.

3.  The gameplay of Trinity combat hardly ever changes and is not dynamic at all.  So every fight, the tank will taunt and take agro, DPS will do their rotation, and the healer will stare at health bars.  This is almost EVERY fight in the game, and it can get old fast.

 

So all of that said...I think it definitely IS possible for MMORPGs to have a more interesting team dynamic without the traditional Trinity, but the key is that specialized roles MUST exist, and they must be necessary.  I don't want to go into much more now because this post is already pretty long...so what are your thoughts on this?  Do you think the Trinity as it stands now is perfect, or can another system be created that is better?  And if so, what would this system be like?

If you want interesting group fights then players need interesting group abilities. Not all players want group fights of course and even those that do might not like how *rigid* a fixed role system like the Trinity is.

 

Personally i like the idea of tactical group fights but don't like how rigid the trinity is so i'd prefer a system where a class had a set of abilities some of which were only useful in groups e.g. a warrior having a guard ability which they put on another player giving that other player a defense boost if they stay within range of the warrior, or a distraction ability they can use to give a bonus to a rogue's attack.

 

Ideally (for me) players would select skills and abilities from a big skill tree as they progressed and one branch would have "tank" skills and another would have solo melee skills and players could mix and match according to their preference. This way players that liked group fights could tailor their character to that while solo players could ignore the tank branch of the skill tree completely and make their guy a solo fighter only.

 

If a game is designed around questing for your character's abilities then a player could create their own personal story through deciding which abilities they want and in which order.

 

For example you might have an apprentice wizard story in a newbie town with 5-6 quests for starting wizard abilities. Then the player might want to learn necromantic, charming or fire spells. The fire spells might be taught by a group of wizards to the west, necromancy by a group to the north, charm spells by a faction to the east. Some of these choices may be mutually exclusive and each of the journeys may involve other obstacles along the way which need to be overcome separately e.g. learning the charm spells might first require learning ancient language abilities which also involve quests to learn. Or they might want to learn staff fighting from the monk temple to the south.

 

With quests for special items designed around those path choices e.g. one quest for an amulet that boosts fire spells and another for one that boosts charm spells, each character's personal story could be different.

Originally posted by Foomerang

Quests are a way to tell the lore of the game, which is a facet of mmos that people enjoy. Its the same reason mmos have crafting, gathering, combat, pets, mounts, housing etc. These are all things that people can enjoy or not in an mmorpg.

I play mmos mainly for the crafting and enjoy the other aspects as well. Others play mmos for raids. For others, its pvp. Lore is a strong motivator for some people and is a feature of an mmo we can choose to experience or not.

 

I agree that quests ought to be a way of showing/telling the lore of the game.

 

One way of doing that more would if classes were directly derived from the game lore i.e. a wood elf druid type class had a specific function and purpose in the wood elf culture, then the classes and their abilities would fit that purpose and be part of the lore also. So instead of giving classes new skills/spells/abilities when they level each skill/spell/ability would be quested for e.g. their barkskin spell would have a quest, their root spell would have a quest, their charm animal spell would have a quest etc so levelling up would unlock the quests to gain those abilities not the abilities themselves.

 

So basically your wood elf druid would spend most of the game doing things that felt wood elf druidy.

 

This would still be linear but would make each class different in a lore-centric way - which i like. You could the same but make it non-linear by having a universal skill tree where each skill/spell/ability has a quest attached and you picked your own path through the skill tree.

Originally posted by onlinenow25
Originally posted by tupodawg999

A general system needs to cover a very different creatures

- giant beetle: easy to hit, high armor, high mass (standard hp), critical organs? (lower secondary hp pool)

- dragons: hard to hit while moving, easy to hit (in theory) when on the ground (with a fear check to attack?), very high armor, high mass, critical hit HP pool?

- giant: easy to hit (fear check?), variable armor, high mass

- spider: dodges, low armor, variable mass

- rats: hard to hit, low armor, low mass

- humanoids: all variable

 

When you look at it like that rather than as just humanoid vs humanoid or mech vs mech then i think it shows how splitting up the combat into try to attack, try to hit, try to penetrate armor, try to damage, makes sense. The standard HP number rolls them all together. In a computer game the rolls can still all happen at once. The underlying aspects simply effect player tactics.

e.g. Dragon

fear check to attack: 1+ ranged, 6+ melee

to hit: 1+ stationary (ground), 2+ moving (ground), 6+ flying

penetrate armor: 9+

HP: 48 mass HP, 12 critical HP

 

You can already see from that what dragon fighting tactics and gear might be. If you start by looking at the different creatures and how to model them in a non-generic way the fighting system builds itself.

Almost sounds like Monster Hunter.

Monster Hunter is a good example of a game that makes fighting each mob different.

There's crafting and there's trading. The trading economy part of crafting requires some kind of decay to maintain supply and demand.

 

For those people who specifically get a kick out of the crafting process or from playing a crafter character a game can provide that by making the crafting process interesting in itself - not just a crafting mini-game but the whole process of learning recipes, skills, finding and gathering materials etc.

 

Even in a game like WoW if you had specific crafting character classes with their own path through the game (or if a skill based game then separate trees of crafting skills) then being a crafter could be made interesting separately from the economy.

 

A general system needs to cover a very different creatures

- giant beetle: easy to hit, high armor, high mass (standard hp), critical organs? (lower secondary hp pool)

- dragons: hard to hit while moving, easy to hit (in theory) when on the ground (with a fear check to attack?), very high armor, high mass, critical hit HP pool?

- giant: easy to hit (fear check?), variable armor, high mass

- spider: dodges, low armor, variable mass

- rats: hard to hit, low armor, low mass

- humanoids: all variable

 

When you look at it like that rather than as just humanoid vs humanoid or mech vs mech then i think it shows how splitting up the combat into try to attack, try to hit, try to penetrate armor, try to damage, makes sense. The standard HP number rolls them all together. In a computer game the rolls can still all happen at once. The underlying aspects simply effect player tactics.

e.g. Dragon

fear check to attack: 1+ ranged, 6+ melee

to hit: 1+ stationary (ground), 2+ moving (ground), 6+ flying

penetrate armor: 9+

HP: 48 mass HP, 12 critical HP

 

You can already see from that what dragon fighting tactics and gear might be. If you start by looking at the different creatures and how to model them in a non-generic way the fighting system builds itself.

- seasons (say one real week per game month so on a twelve-week cycle)

- day/night cycle (skewed to the day part so say 50 minutes game day and 10 minutes of game night per real hour)

 

And for elements in the game to change accordingly and not just graphics e.g. some mobs, quests, gathered items etc vary over the day / night and game year cycles.

So even though the game content is static the way it is rotated through the seasons makes the world feel dynamic.

Originally posted by Mendel

Originally posted by maplestone

You need a way for players to know if they are winning or losing. I've tried a lot of ideas for replacing hp with some other inventory of injuries, but all I've learned from it is the more complexity there is, the less players like it. There may be something clever I've not considered, but personally, I've given up on coming up with alternatives and accepted that on some level, hp will always exist in any game without sudden one-shot death or long strategic turns.

Definitely.  Feedback to the player needs to be simple enough to easily understand.   But the underlying mechanism can be a lot more involved than the simple HP system.

Originally posted by Helleri

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

Multiple bars.  That could be useful, especially to relay information to players, but I don't know if it addresses the underlying simulation.  I'll have to re-read your post in the morning and think about your idea some more.

Originally posted by krage

if a more realism based game were to come out i would like to see bodily damage accumulating over decreasing HP.

The one downside though is the snowball effect from it. Pretty much makes the first few blows the defining outcome for the rest of the battle, once someone is injured it is very unlikely they will win....but ya know what thats ok imo if the game is build around it.

I will tell you what though with such a system the environment, weapon selection, and timing is wayyyyy more important than in traditional systems since it is so unforgiving.

Hit Points are one of the most unrealistic things in RP games.  A system without HPs would probably be seen as much more realistic.  That didn't bother me particularly, as I was wanting to make a fantasy simulator, rather than a game.

You hit on the main problem I've encountered several times -- either the combat goes on forever (especially with low skills involved), the first blow determines the nature of the fight, or the first hit kills.   All too often, one combatant would go from perfectly fine to dead in a single instant.  I don't know how 'quick' combat between two equally equipped and equally skilled opponents 'should' be.   Realism has to allow the insta-kill, but that's not fun to play.   I was aiming for a system that required 3-7 shots before death/incapacitation, but my last effort never quite got there.

Another thing about the combat system in a fantasy game, it needs to allow for a 'heroic' battle where one man beats several opponents.  A lot of systems that work in a 1-on-1 scenario simply fail when faced with a 1-on-2 or worse odds.   A side with 5 shouldn't always be able to win against 4 opponents, with 3 1-on-1 battles fighting defensively, and the 2-on-1 fighting aggressively and just rolling up the opponents

You're also right about the weapons and especially timing, but I think I had those aspects pretty well covered.   When you think about it, a 3"x2"x/5" puncture into the stomach from a sword isn't really any different from a 3"x2"x.5" wound in the same location from any other kind of weapon.  You can factor a lot of the randomness out of the weapon's damage, and have fatigue costs on heavier weapons.

 

"Another thing about the combat system in a fantasy game, it needs to allow for a 'heroic' battle where one man beats several opponents."

 

That's one of the things I wanted. I didn't want a level 20 Aragorn to fight level 20 orcs. I wanted a system where a level 20 Aragorn was potentially killable if 20 standard orcs attacked him at once.

I split combat into hit / penetrate / damage and renamed HP as Luck and use Luck points to avoid being hit. Say a mob needs 8 to hit a character and rolls a 10 then the character would expend 3 points of luck to subtract 3 from the mob's score bringing it down to 7 turning the hit into a miss. When your Luck runs out you have to rely on your armor to stop penetration. In this system *all* hits to the actual body are potentially very damaging.

 

(In my amateur system humans have 4-8 HP depending on size up to a max of 12 with various abilities or gear. Mobs do 1-6 points of damage depending on size, penetration and armor and all wounds bleed so you lose 1 HP each turn until the wound is bandaged. Healers "heal" normally except now they are blessings that restore your luck and they also heal / bind the actual wounds - except both characters must be out of combat to do that bit. Assassin type strikes roll luck vs luck and if the assassin wins the target doesn't get to use their luck to deflect the strike and it goes straight through to the armor / damage phase etc).

 

Apart from anything else splitting standard DPS vs HP into hit / penetrate / damage makes it easier to make mobs different even without any clever AI and that means different player tactics for different mobs which makes the fights different e.g.

- slow hitting beetles with a strong shell might be best fought using light armor and a two-handed weapon

- fast hitting (and fast moving) spiders with weak penetration and soft bodies might be best fought in medium armor dual-wielding two fast weapons

etc

All the people using raids and instances as examples of why the games aren't too easy are effectively agreeing that the levelling part is too easy - which is the important point for people who like the levelling game.

Mobs for exp

Quests for gear / faction / money

Originally posted by Psychow

Forum Guy #1 "MMOs are so easy! The quest of ultimate truth was a faceroll!! Give me a challenge!"

 

Forum Guy #2 "Wow, I thought it was kind of hard. I died twice trying to complete that quest chain. Forum Guy #1 must be a REALLY GOOD PLAYER!"

 

Forum Guy #1 "Thank you for acknowledging my leetness!" 

 

Basically, Forum Guy #1 just wants his epeen stroked.

 

 

It's weird how people can't get very simple logic. If you have a solo quest game that *every* player has to pass through then the level of difficulty *must* be set at the level of the least able.

 

A class version of the same thing would be if one player is levelling a priest and a second player is levelling a hunter then the level of difficulty *must* be set for the priest to be able to complete which makes the entire levelling game a faceroll for the hunter.

 

The only way to get round that (what should be completely obvious) *logical* truism is to have difficulty modes like single player games or different levelling routes so players can pick the exact level of difficulty they prefer.

 

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Well that's my conclusion after thinking about it.

While MMO do well and sell well, they are not really MMO anymore, they're all small scale dungeon instancers (LoL, Vindictus), solo quest grinders (WoW SWOTOR), , or glorified action Hack & Slash multiplayer games (Tera, GW2).

I haven't seen a game with a true community where the primary focus was the world and human interaction and the gameplay came second in MMO in a number of years. Now the gameplay is frist and if it isn't too much trouble maybe you'll be interacting with someone too, and if no ones interacts, join an artificial bubble called a guild and interact in the bubble.

 

Most people don't need MMO to interact online, there are plenty of chat opportunities, facebook, twitter, disqus, liveFire, forums, email, messengers, smartphones, youtube. You have all these ways to interact with people you want, there is way too much noise to make a world where people will be truly immersed and willing to spend time with each other in a game outside of gameplay.

There's no need for it anymore, there are thousands of other and arguably better ways to interact online.

I think the term MMO lives on even though the games are now becomes multiplayer action games, but the idea behind MMO is long gone I think, it's replaced by other communities online that are far easier and more effective way to interact.

 

I don't think so. I think they went down a dead end for a long time trying to copy WoW's success and are just starting to reel back now - that still means a long wait though.

The market has spoken very loudly that the subscriber model is the model they like for the number one game (maybe the number one in each of a few genres) and F2P for the rest.
Originally posted by Lonzo

And the few quests seem very important and meaningful....

 

EQ had/has 1000s of quests but 95% have a really bad cost/benefit - mostly the time it takes to get the quest reward is longer than it takes to get something better - so people only did the few that were ok so over time it seemed there were only a few.

 

What i'd like is EQ style zones with lots of different areas with different levelled mobs to grind on *and* lots of EQ style optional quests that you could do if you wanted the reward but this time not designed by angry sadists.

 

The more i play EQ again after playing so many other games since the more i think the basic design of EQ was sound and most of the problems with it were to do with the original difficulty* setting being about 20% too high for the zones and about 30% too high for most of the quests - especially the low level ones.

 

*difficulty including mob difficulty but also things like rare spawns, rare drops etc i.e. things taking three hours that should have just been one.

Solo questing MMOs where every player goes through the same quest-chains are easy because they *have* to be easy.

 

1) The least solo-able class has to be able to beat the mobs so they'll be easy for most of the other classes - especially the most solo-able classes.

2) The newest, least experienced players have to be able to beat the mobs so players who've played these kind of games for a while will find it easy.

These things are obviously and necessarily true.

Games can get round the first by making all the classes the same but the second will always be true. If all the players *have* to go through the same content then it must be balanced for the least capable players - obviously.

 

If you got most of your exp from fighting mobs with optional, often class-specific, quests for gear/money/faction then players could pick their own difficulty.

 

EQ had the right design ideas imo. The problem was the implementation e.g. EQ had thousands of optional quests but for 95% of them the cost/benefit really sucked.

I kind of like how blatant it is - fan service ftw, but apart from the smut angle it's not my kind of game. I also think the female characters in Wushu look cuter. I would probably have played it at age 12 though.
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