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All Posts by tupodawg999

All Posts by tupodawg999

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The Everquest system: lots of factions, lots of complexity, can change faction attitudes but it takes time, also change them temporarily with charm and illusion spells - great system.


Negative faction should be much more than positive though. Killing one of their side should be a massive hit - not kill one and then make up for it by killing one of their enemies.


Some of it could be hard as well - for example certain factions being enemies to all create fun game opportunities.

one single thing: non-combat options


what i mean by that is not necessarily activities that don't involve combat but activities where combat is just one option; once you have this then you unlock the opportunity to have a lot of non-combat abilities like: charm, social skills, stealth, speed, pacification etc.

for example delivering a message to an npc at the top of an undead tower a player could fight their way to the top if they wanted to or depending on what non-combat skills they picked they might climb up the outside, use a levitate spell, stealth or invisibility, bribery, pacify, disguise etc


Everquest (50%)


EQ had lots of factions and sub-factions and many were hostile to each other so if you did something to gain faction with one group you would often lose faction with another.


Only 50% because the actual method of raising faction was a bit too painful.


(That was EQ's problem generally imo. It was maybe 10% too hard / frustrating like a lot of the early games.)

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by tupodawg999

I think if AAA companies do disappear from mmorpgs it will be better in the long run as I think those AAA companies were all chasing an artificial "wow killer" game rather than a bunch of people trying to make a game they wanted to play and that's why they went wrong.


Who is still doing that? No AAA companies are making new AAA MMORPGs anymore. I think that fad has ended.




The odd thing is the single player games are becoming more and more like (less buggy versions of) the early mmorpgs: open world, non-linear etc while the newer mmorpgs have become more and more like old single player games.


I think if AAA companies do disappear from mmorpgs it will be better in the long run as I think those AAA companies were all chasing an artificial "wow killer" game rather than a bunch of people trying to make a game they wanted to play and that's why they went wrong.



- seasons, day/night cycle, weather


- food sources, herbivores, predators

- herbivores move to food sources, predators move to prey, no random mobs standing around or random movement


- day cycle: hunting, patrols, work etc depending on monster


- like simple sims, have a home and place of work, despawn at night etc


so even if players aren't there the world is alive



- options for more non-combat progression: as well as non-combat professions, paths etc also make monsters the obstacle in a mission more often than the goal itself so a mission to retrieve an object could be completed by killing everything along the way or it could be completed by stealth, charm, bribery, magic etc

- non combat skills/spells to fit above

Cool article btw, despite the flaws SWG was easily the most satisfying MMORPG experience I've had: horizontal progression ftw.
Originally posted by Horusra
I would challenge that most players like to explore. Most seem to want maps and guides. Much like people ingeneral.


I agree it's a minority but a minority that could be catered for by having a wilderness alongside the content hubs.

Originally posted by Raph

Heh, too small and square? I am pretty sure SWG's scale is still among the bigger MMOs, to this day.

Bigger ISN'T always better, Content density matters, so does player density. A big giant world where players spread out too much will basically feel like a single player game and lose a lot of MMO qualities. Travel time has huge impacts on the perception of size as well.



I agree about the player density thing generally but I would chip in that some times low player density adds to the feel of a particular task e.g. heading off into the wilderness to find rare materials, in that specific instance long journeys, prospecting, lack of other players was part of the "feel" of that part of the game, with dangers but dangers to avoid as you harvest rather than dangers you seek out.

It's an exception to the general rule but an important one for harvester type players.

Originally posted by Winterleaf
Originally posted by Gamer54321


Player control over own actions

A really, really, really big map to play on.

No bullshit

Proper environmental effects, like rain, proper snow etc. Preferably seasonal changes. 

Not the bs rain seen in Arma/DayZ.

Environment! That was another question I wanted to ask about.

How many gamers here actually like that? I personally enjoy weather changes if the environment calls for it such as snow on a snowy mountain, but I think a whole season change would be pointless unless materials and mobs, possibly even quests change along with it- that's going to be a lot of work, but could create an amazing immersed game. 


Personally I think seasons would be the easiest way to create a dynamic *seeming* world without it actually being dynamic but as you say you'd have to change quests and mob spawns to get the effect. It wouldn't have to all change just some of it but it could make the game very replayable if it was enough e.g. on one character a player might level through four zones when those zones were in spring - summer - fall - winter mode respectively and then another time do the same thing but this time when the zones were in their fall - winter - spring - summer mode.


Similarly with a day / night cycle - on it's own it's not that great but when different mobs spawn at night then it makes the world feel dynamic even though it's not really.


If you had weather you could have different mobs then too in a few cases e.g. djinnis during sand storms in a desert.


Originally posted by Phry
Would love to see a Traveller MMO, still have all the 'classic' Traveller books from the 80's, but given the scope of how large the Traveller Universe was, even just covering the Spinward Marches alone would be a huge undertaking. But yeah, as far as i am concerned they can name whatever sub price they like, i'd pay it


yeah it would have to start pretty small but at the same time that would make it infinitely extendable.


I'd like it done in terms of "systems" so the main systems would have both a main (or more than one) main planet with moon colonies, asteroid miners, hollowed out pirate bases etc (for anyone that doesn't know the Traveler idea is a bit like the Age of Sail in earth history so although there are big planets with big navies it might take a naval squadron four months to patrol from one end of their territory to the other end so there are cracks for pirates etc to exist in) so the big systems might have a ton of different things to do and then have a chain of little backwater systems in between with (initially) just a refueling station so you get the sense of scale without an impossible amount of work and then add more detail later.


So for example imagine a sector of 30 systems in a network with six fully developed systems and the rest just gas giant refueling stations (at first).


Originally posted by VikingGamer
I think the Traveller universe would be great to see in an MMO. But one of the things that has always made it so distinctive is the amount of time it takes to travel between worlds. This is the major reason given for why mankind has regressed back to a feudal system of gov't. Some way would need to be found to maintain the sense of time needed to go from world to world without it actually hindering gameplay. Not sure how that can be accomplished without it simply turning into EVE Online.


I think the way to do it would be to either

a) make the travel fast but simulate it by adding to character age then at say 50 the player's stats start to drop until their high skill is outweighed by their lower stats. That then adds a whole new set of game motives as the player hunts down organic implants, cyborg parts, longevity drugs etc that give them more time but eventually you just pass on your alien blaster rifle to your kid and start again at 20.




b) the idea mentioned of making certain activities in game happen only during travel might also work - random encounters, social skills, gambling, crafting (aka ship maintenance) etc - although i think that might have to be optional. I'd be into that but players desperate to see the next system might get annoyed.


Yes I think Traveller's "jump drive" idea (where it takes an average of two weeks to jump from system to system) lends itself very well to an mmorpg because it creates the basis for isolated feudal planets with their own unique and possibly weird political setup but in a space context - systems are both self-contained and at the same time connected to a vast network.


Another aspect of Traveller that might be interesting is the idea of a character starting at different ages with a lower or higher level of skills and then aging with each jump. So you could start at age 40 with high skills (maybe good fro raiders) and avoid too many jumps whereas an explorer player might want to start at age 20 with low skills but more time (age 40 would take 500 jumps). Aging would drop your stats and fix the end game problem. Your character would have to have a kid and start at 20 again.


Lots of cool alien critters and planets, moon bases, refueling stations at gas giants, could be great.


(Lends itself to a very non-linear game play as well.




Originally posted by Winterleaf

Good Afternoon,Morning or Evening all.

I know that I'm asking a generic question, one that's probably asked a lot on here.

However, I'm currently doing some market research for an upcoming indie MMO currently in pre-production- we're hoping to get an Alpha Demo out just after Christmas.  I'm not here to advertise it or shove it down your throats- all I have are Questions!

So I'm just going to jump straight in:

When looking for a new MMO to play what draws you in?

What do you like when it comes to UI/HUDs? Got any examples of what you would call the perfect UI experience? 

What do you hate about MMOs that you wish they would just stop doing? (Just so we know what we can try to avoid!)

What is your all time favorite MMO, and why.. if you can explain it in words. 


I believe that's all I have for now, but I'm sure more will follow.

Thank you for your time, and I'm looking forward to your answers!


(like) skyrim type world design / crafting / freedom

(ui) i think wow nailed the UI thing really - apart from having two many damage skills flashing away on multiple tool bars - but that's more to do with the combat system

(hate) linear quest conveyor belt

(faves) EQ - lots of problems but lots of freedom, SWG ditto


I prefer fantasy to sci-fi but not by that much. I think part of the problem with sci-fi is ranged combat is more difficult to get right with mob AI and usually ends up as melee with guns which looks silly.


I like the game and particularly like the skill system and the tactical combat it creates but I am just so burned out on linear quest lines I can't stand it for more than a few hours.


I'll probably go back and go through it some more just because I want to see the rest of the world but I'll do it a few hours at a time.



Too many so just the crafting top 3 (for me):


1) A prospecting type gathering sub-game like SWG or Ryzom. In a fantasy world it wouldn't make sense to prospect for wood so make it the same as now with wood nodes, iron nodes etc to make the standard item but to make an item with a special property also requires some gathered mana that you prospect for and extract like in SWG. The type and quality of the prospected component would effect the item e.g. green mana might have different healing effects depending on the type / quantity while red mana might have various damage effects. You could also change gear effects by redoing that crafting step with new mana e.g. a player might loot some chest armor with a weight reducing effect they don't need so they get a crafter to replace it with a resist poison effect instead.


2) Regional crafting - personally i find it boring to have the same recipes in every region and it would make crafting more interesting if each race/faction (including some of the non playable factions) had their own version of standard recipes plus some unique ones and also if some items were only craftable with drops from certain zones. So your crafter dude could wander the world picking up recipes from different factions and/or crafting fire arrows from drops in one zone and ice arrows from drops in another etc. Also each faction having their own weapon / armor / clothing styles. The stats on the gear might be the same or might not but they have their faction's style so a crafted orc sword would look different to a crafted elf sword even if they were the same item in game terms.


3) Make gear style a separate crafting element - this is connected to the above and means have the gear and the style of the gear as two separate things. For example each faction might have the same basic recipe for leather armor (maybe using different local components and giving slightly different stats) but the style is separate. So an elf crafter would know the elf style and craft elf style leather and an orc crafter would know the orc style and craft orc style leather - but you could also learn the other faction's styles - so you could learn the standard recipes and your faction's style in your home region and then travel around learning other faction's unique recipes and also their faction's styles so you could change gear's appearance from one style to another that you have learned.

What this would mean is instead of having a wardrobe option which other players see where your character looks cool and also a main character window on your character sheet where the player can see how bad their dude really looks in their mismatched random drop armor - instead if a player liked elf style leathers and had lots of random leather pieces they could hire a crafter to change all their mismatched leather armor pieces into elf style (if the crafter knows the elf style).

This would both create additional demand for crafters from other players and give crafters a natural kind of quest line to follow.


Originally posted by MMOExposed

What's the size and features you are looking for in a MMO game world?

give some examples of MMOs that currently exist that fits your mode for what a standard MMO world size should be (based on fantasy/Sci if genres)

also explain what gameplay features you want in a MMO game world, to make it more than just moving background?


What I'd like is an mmorpg with nine or ten distinctive cultural or racial provinces with distinctive lore designed like Morrowind or Skyrim with masses of side quests / tasks. Each province would have a long main quest as well that was a) optional and b) entirely wrapped up in the lore of the province's main race and c) a decent single player game but if you switched it off you could start in a bunch of different towns and just do your own thing.


(If the provinces were big enough they wouldn't all have to built from the start. They could be penciled in in advance but you could have some at the start and then add the rest in expansions.)


Class customization by choosing from a set of skill blocks like SWG or Archeage (with preset templates for people who don't want to bother with it). (I'd like crafter to be one of the skill blocks you could choose but that may be too much of a minority thing.)


Good crafting. This would include: an SWG-like gathering mini game / treasure hunt, SWG-like item customization that increased with skill, crafting tasks/quests, regional/racial crafting and leveling up as a crafter (what this means is if you want to play the game in the sequence craft for a while / level / craft for a while / level etc that the stuff you make in the craft part is useful in the leveling part).


Good exploring: this would include hidden quests/tasks out in the wilderness, long range collection quests and the ability to create classes that were specifically good at exploring (i.e. speed, stealth, escape and evasion) at a cost of being less good at other things.


For me the combat would ideally be more tactical than flashing lights or twitchy but i think i'd be in the minority there and combat for me is less important than the other things anyway. Although one way to have all three (flashing lights, twitchy and tactical) at the same time would be to design one set of classes that were mostly uncomplicated flashing lights, one set that were good but twitchy and a third set that were complicated and only good if you used them tactically (EQ enchanters were like that).


PvP would tie into the game world somehow like Rebel Alliance and Imperial in SWG. For example in medieval times tournaments didn't just have jousting they also had single combats and mass battles where people would try and take prisoners for ransom prize money. (That's where the word "melee" comes from.) So for example you could pay 100 gold to join the melee and if someone defeated you they'd get the cash and exp. Each city could have their own distinctive tourney field.


"Tournaments often contained a mêlée consisting of knights fighting one another on foot or mounted, either divided into two sides or fighting as a free-for-all. The object was to capture opposing knights so that they could be ransomed, and this could be a very profitable business for such skilled knights as William Marshal. There was a tournament ground covering several square miles in northern France to which knights came from all over Europe to prove themselves in quite real combat."




I think that's it :)

deep, open world with good lore (with optional fast leveling chain quest for people who want that)

class customization with interesting choices (with templates for people who want that)

good crafting (but optional)

good exploring (but optional)

okay combat (ideally with a tactical option)

pvp as part of the game world (but still optional): either wars between two of the provinces (that can be won and then a different one starts) with their own battleground representing the border zone and / or the tournament idea where you can level up fighting other players.




The difference in a world designed like this to something like EQ's design is in EQ you have a faction starter zone with one big settlement surrounded by wilderness zones. In a more elder scrolls province type design each province would be the equivalent of say 3-5 EQ zones that border each other (so the pvp border battle grounds makle sense) with multiple smaller settlements and the wilderness areas *within* the province like Red Mountain or the Ashlands in Morrowind.


Originally posted by someforumguy

I honestly can't tell what my personal max price would be. I only can point at released MMO's which I think are not worth the sub or box price for me.

I tend to avoid subs these days, but thats not so much because of the price, but because I would have to pay it regardless of how much time I have that month. That payment model just doesn't suit me.

Also, other developments influence this a lot for me. Atm me and my friends play modded Minecraft on a server that I made for us. We do this instead of playing MMO's at this point. This is already our third world and third modpack we made for it. Every time made around a differentt theme. So right now, we just don't feel like spending any money on MMO's. But the moment we get really bored with this, this could all change.


"I tend to avoid subs these days, but thats not so much because of the price, but because I would have to pay it regardless of how much time I have that month. That payment model just doesn't suit me."


I think that's why i'll only do it for games i know i'm going to keep coming back to because then i don't mind still paying the sub when i'm not playing.


Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Dagon13
Originally posted by nariusseldon

What huge difference? Many good SP RPG that you design you char has a predetermined story line too. Fallout 1-3, Borderland, even Ultima 6!!

My case in point.  In Fallout I create my character and play how I want with almost complete freedom in how I go about my business.  In Borderlands I play a pre-generated character through force fed quests where my only choice is to do them or ignore them.  You really don't see the difference?  It's fine if you don't, but if that's how it is then you've got nothing to contribute to an actual discussion on this topic.

Only in combat, and some side quests. The main story is the same for everyone. There is no "complete freedom". In fact, it is a myth. As long as there is a story, there is no complete freedom.



Which gives the answer imo. The way to do it is design an mmorpg like Skyrim/Morrowind *except* you let the player choose at character creation if you want the main quest/chain switched on or not.


If you leave it switched on (on by default) then you start in a particular spot and get the linear SP game but if you switch it off you get to choose a bunch of different starting towns and then make up your own story.


I mod the ES games like that where i switch off the main quest (hard to do it 100% but good enough for me) and then make new starting points and gear for different characters like start as a Nord warrior with decent basic gear just arriving off the boat in northern Morrowind or an escaped Argonian slave starting in the swamp with nothing but shackles and a pair of pants etc.


I think it would actually be easier to make a game like that because you don't need a big story to explain why a village whose economy is based on exporting crab meat wants the p[layer to hunt crabs.


edit: btw not saying the main quest/story in Morrowind/Skyrim were bad - i usually play them first - but then i want to play again but with my own character


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