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All Posts by fistorm

All Posts by fistorm

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Originally posted by Nanfoodle

IMO this is great news. This is the first step in keeping their word to make 2015 the year of EQN. Also love that pic =-) More pls


From producer:

While we do this, we’re working in areas with high amounts of creative risk. This means that while we know what we want to do, we know it will take an unknown amount of iteration, tweaking and sometimes drastic direction changes to get these in game and working the way they need to. Because of this, we simply cannot commit to any dates, because until we get much closer, even our best estimates are educated (but still fairly wild) guesses.


My statement:

Skyrim took a creative risk every single elder scrolls and made a really great RPG.   


A look into the past.  EQOA was for the PS2 at a time when MMORPG's were new to Consoles.  If it had been released 5 years later with updated technology and given the amount of people who use the Internet and Consoles.  It would have been a number 1 game for over a decade


I can say the same for Vangaurd, had it been given more and more fun updates to the game it could have been another MMORPG that would have done very well. 


Both of these games lost me because of lack of updates/expansions and not utilizing new technology/moderinization/Sequel  or I would have been playing both of them as well today.  


Bottom Line:


Developers have to take creative risks that they know themselves as fun.   Draw the line at where fun is and what players want that would take away from YOUR FUN as a DEVELOPER on the game and in the game.   Only you know how fun the game is and if a feature that the people want would crap on that fun, such as PVP crapping on PVE or anything else the majority of the PVP or most shouting crowd of today is shouting at you every turn you look.   Stay true to what you know to be TRUE FUN in your PVE aspect of the world when its comes to ADVENTURING your game world and INTERACTIVITY with the game world. 

Take that risk.  ITs worth it and I WANT YOU TO.   I am a RPG only /  PVE only fan of games.


He probably secured his own golden parachute and thats whats happening now, hes jumped the plane.  Doubt he'll be back.


If you look at the brand name of SOE/Daybreak,  its been really hurt by this man and I can only hope all the games that were closed down on people without getting an update get started back up and given new development for modern games.  Just look at all the people who wanted EQ Next and got crapped on because of this marketeer.


From EQOA to Galaxy's to Vanguard to every RPG style game made by SOE,  by not being updated or remade or getting sequels as the technology gets more modern is a shame that they were closed down and not given the TLC they deserved that would be necessary to keep RPG's at the forefront of the marketplace.

I'll add one last statement here.  In a way most people can relate to.

Look at the amount of imaginiation it takes to really get that feeling of fishing in games these days.

in wow it would take 98% imagination to really achieve the same feeling as RL fishing.

If imagination is just as good as real life feeling on the screen meaning 50% realism or better to you, then corn would not even exist at all on the internet.  

My point is, if the fishing your doing in a game is less then 50% realistic feeling and over 50% all imaginaition, then its failing to meet the enjoyment levels of its players.

Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by fistorm
Originally posted by Fdzzaigl

If you want that exact feeling, why don't you take that axe and fishing rod and go out there yourself?

It's madness to want every MMO developer to create some sort of simulation game. Simulation of reality is just a tiny fraction of what the medium is capable of. It's a million times more exciting to me, thinking about the possibilities in a game world that aren't possible in reality.

Immersion and suspension of disbelief are important, but every game becoming a simulator is definitely not the way forward.

If you really think about it, all games are simulations of real life, from differant periods of time and different cultures.  In a way most of us do want a sim of what it would feel like to be in the middle of the woods learning how to survive without actually being dropped off on a deserted island and trying to do it ourselfs in real life, or take the renaissance for example, how many of us watch movies, TV shows and play videogames hoping to be a part of the simulated world we are watching or playing? 


I think you got the sim part right, I think you got the idea that somehow people do not want these things for the core of their game, would be wrong.  I sure do and millions do as well if you look at all the mods made for skyrim.

I think you're grossly overestimating the appeal of simulating the mundane things that many of us have actually done in RL. I've fished, I've chopped wood and even built and crafted. I don't want games that simulate those things any more than I want commuting or tax return filing simulators. I can see the appeal if you've never hunted, fished, built or crafted and lived a humdrum urban life... But even then it's still a poor choice to think that gaming needs to include medieval rural drudgery to be more genuine or that simulating those things is even necessary.


My suspicion is that given the choice of what we can fantasize about and what we choose to do in a virtual fantasy world, the vast majority of us would choose much more exciting fantastic things than fishing and chopping wood. And when choosing which grand fantastic things we'd do in those virtual worlds, many of us would even go a step further and would prefer simulating things that never were over things that were... Magic over swinging a sword... Flying a spaceship over riding a horse.


The appeal for me is the grand adventure, the dungeons and the dragons, the space ships, aliens and exotic technologies, the super powers and super villains. It's never been about building tables, cornering the tribble market or picking the right color-coordinated  leotard and cape. As a matter of fact, the appeal of all those other secondary things in MMOs has always baffled me. They don't add realism, immersion or value for me. They just add fluff and time-wasting bloat as far as I'm concerned.

I think you are thinking of regular simulators that you see on the market like Airplane simulators or Fishing Simulators.

If you copy paste the sims on the current market, it would not be fun.


Now lets say we start out by looking at the Simulation we had in Skyrim instead as an example.   The chopping of  wood on a woodblock.   Did that even resemble a simulator?  Of course not cause it was a realistic part of the game that added fun. 


You threw the log over onto the lumber mill in skyrim and actually operated the lever,.   Did that even resemble a simulator?  Again it did not but we could actually catagorize those things as simulated in game.


Simulation in a game can take many different form other then the sims you see on the market today.


You can litterally make everything you do in RL fun in a game.  it doesnt have to be boring.


For example.   Think of all the ways you can make a Tackle Box a fun collection mini game in game.

                           Think of all the ways you could make choosing the bait a rewarding process.

                           Think of all the ways you could make casting lines and pulling in fish a fun realistic feature. 

                            (aiming the pole, getting your line stuck can even be made fun,  casting in the right spot can be made fun)

                           We all know the rewards of pulling a fish out of a water as well. 

If you focus on making each step of the process fun while giving the player a full realistic feeling of actually doing it..  Then mission accomplished.  Thats what I'm looking for in simulation in games.


I hope that clarifies it a bit better as its hard to show people what realism is if they look at RL as boring or not fun.  Sometimes how you do things in a Possitive way in RL make RL fun.


I went fishing many times and it was very fun and rewarding for me.  If you dont like fishing, you wont have fun no matter what you do during the fishing process, including catching the fish.  But if you capture that real life realism that people enjoy that feature in real life and add that to the game you will have captured the market on those people who love fishing in RL.


If you dont like fishing in RL and they added this feature, that would mean Fishing in game would not be for you.  While being extremly fun for someone who fishes in RL, those who hate RL fishing would probably hate it.   Not everyone has to fish.   I'm sure with 8 gatherings and crafts out there, a game could eventually find the one that you will be for you and you'll end up enjoying it that much more when they add the mind blowingly realism fun to that craft of your choice.  but if you just like to run dungeons ect and not craft then no matter what a game company does, you will not like any of those features in game anyways adding value to crafters you'll have to depend on for those things.


Getting a dev out there fishing will give them a real chance to see the RL feeling and see if they can bring that RL feeling to the game to give it to the player in a way thats mind blowingly real to them and very fun while rewarding.




I agree with you OP.

I been waiting for posts like this to show up, soon enough early access and kickstarters that are really weak will die out very very soon.   Once this decade is over we can finally get back to forcing developers to work for a dollar with finished games. 


Why develop something thats been a success before launch.  Launch then becomes an expansion to there devs.

Originally posted by Fdzzaigl

If you want that exact feeling, why don't you take that axe and fishing rod and go out there yourself?

It's madness to want every MMO developer to create some sort of simulation game. Simulation of reality is just a tiny fraction of what the medium is capable of. It's a million times more exciting to me, thinking about the possibilities in a game world that aren't possible in reality.

Immersion and suspension of disbelief are important, but every game becoming a simulator is definitely not the way forward.

If you really think about it, all games are simulations of real life, from differant periods of time and different cultures.  In a way most of us do want a sim of what it would feel like to be in the middle of the woods learning how to survive without actually being dropped off on a deserted island and trying to do it ourselfs in real life, or take the renaissance for example, how many of us watch movies, TV shows and play videogames hoping to be a part of the simulated world we are watching or playing? 


I think you got the sim part right, I think you got the idea that somehow people do not want these things for the core of their game, would be wrong.  I sure do and millions do as well if you look at all the mods made for skyrim.

Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Loktofeit

If you're looking for a great virtual fishing experience, it makes far more sense to look for it in a game about fishing. "Fishing" in an MMO isn't designed to be anything like fishing because, of all the reasons a player wants fishing in an MMO, having a realistic fishing sim is pretty low on the list. 

That goes for your logging example and every other aspect of an MMO. The problem in this case is that you're looking in the wrong place for what you want. 

Here are some games you might like:

Fishing actually used to be pretty popular in Wow so there is some interests for it at least. A friend of mine used to sit 30 mins there whenever he needed to relax...

The thing is that it is a pretty different way to get crafting mats then the usual running around and mining. Instead of just finding the right node you do something different. I could see rules for panning for gold in rivers instead of gold mining nodes as well.


I didn't say there was no interest in fishing in MMOs, Loke666. I even indicated that there are many reasons people want fishing in their MMO. There's no interest in a fishing sim in MMOs, Loke666. That aside, you're spot on with the biggest reason people seem to like fishing in an MMO - an alternative to the standard fare of gathering or obtaining resources and loot. 

Imagine how much better an MMO game would be if it indeed did add a fishing sim to it.   After all its one of the many crafts that will remain part of the game for the entire life of the game.   That indeed is enough of a reason to add systems like this in the game for every aspect of it.   Like one poster said above, drop the PVP and start focusing on these types of content in a game so people stay much longer and have much better experience in game.

Originally posted by immodium

Skyim is a terrible example in regard to realism.

You can't chop trees down, you stand next to a stump and have an infinite supply of wood. Fishing with a pole is non-existent. You swim for fish and grab them. Not seen many fishermen do that down the canal.


Skyrim sales had nothing to do with realism, it was a great game.

To me Skyrim was a great game because they did add that stump you chop wood at and it did not even matter you did not have a infinate supply of wood.  You actually got the feeling of chopping the wood.   


Its about the Experience of realism,  feeling that experience when you take that Huge Log off the pile of logs at the lumber mill with the hook, and rolling it into place.  Then going around to the other side and pulling a lever that started the sawing of a Huge Log.  


It felt great to be a part of that experience and having left feeling like I actually did it.    Realism doesnt mean that every detail in the game was perfectly identical to real world, but that you had enough fine details in game to be able to really feel like you did the REAL thing in real life.  


Skyrim captured that realism 100% in the parts that it could make real, imagine if they went even further with future patches to make you be able to chop down trees and give you the experience of actually doing that?   Or if they went further and allowed you much much more realism? 


When they handed over the Creation Kit look at how many things people added to make the game feel even more real to them to give them that experience in game.

I hope that clarifies what realism means for you.   Its about being real enough to feel the actual experience as if you did it in real life.  Then letting development branch off from that starting point.

Originally posted by Theocritus
im lucky to catch more than a couple of fish over several hours in RL fishing, and it would probably take me a good hour at least to chop down a decent size tree and cut up the wood.........

Crafting is not for everyone, its ok to buy the mats instead and do the other stuff in a game you enjoy and make gold/game money that way as well.   Which is an even more added bonus to crafters to have people like you who would not want to do those things.

Originally posted by L0C0Man

After all, when was the last time you've heard someone say that a game sucks in most aspects, but he's still playing because he loves how the bobber moves in the water when fishing, and the treebark looks like when cutting wood?.

I guess Skyrim is the closest we'll have to figuring out that question, since a MMORPG of that level of core has never been built yet.   If a dev has to figure out that the experience in game is the reason a player quits a game by someone typing it on a forum...  then all hope is lost.  

Originally posted by FlyByKnight

I think every dev actually needs to go back and play old fighting games, old RPGs, and watch some classic fantasy/sci fi movies.


I personally don't want a game that is a replacement for things I can do and see in real life, because I have a real life. I also prefer fantasy/sci-fi because I don't want to deal with real world cultures and religion fucking off my happy time with their "lore"


All jokes aside it's been pretty well proven that super realism doesn't translate well into games. To each his own though.

I get the feeling you would be that pvp kind of guy who would run through my woods while I'm fishing and kick water in my face, grab my fishing pole, break it and beat up my ass while telling me I'm not strong enough Karrrrrrrrl.   I hope no dev that makes RPG listens to your advice about realism.   If super realism does not translate well into games, look at the sales figures of skyrim.  When devs take enough time to build a core of a game you make more money and people play your game much longer.  


Maybe what we need is a Todd Howard to make us a game and show the MMO world how a RPG should feel like.

Originally posted by sunandshadow
It's so easy to go fishing for real though - if I enjoyed that kind of boring activity I would just fish for real.  I prefer fishing gameplay that is faster and more of a tactical challenge.

I do fish in real life, I find it very fun and rewarding experience.  In games however sure you can have fast and tacitcal and even cartoon if you wanted on an iphone app which takes only hours of development.   What I want is a bit more then that, I want a game that you can feel what your doing as if you just did it in real life...   Again, look at the shooter games these days, look how real it looks when your in the game doing war, how can shooters have gotten this realism so right and dead on but RPG world not offer any MMO to that level of realism and experience yet? 

What I describe is basic things you find in a game.  Woodworking gathering and fishing, these things will be around the entire gamelife for crafting.   I agree some people hate fishing, but there is other crafts you can do that you do that you do enjoy. Some of the crowd will pick fishing as their craft only because they like it. 


These basic crafts you see in games time and time again get no attention and should have been the focus to the degree I describe because they are only 7 to 8 crafts and are the very basic and core of your game.  


Why not take the time to develop those crafts to be, yes, time consuming with the feeling of realism to a person who enjoys them in real life so they can walk away really feeling an experience of accomplishment in game.   I bet logs would be worth alot more on auction if it took some time to gather instead of hitting trees like a gold farmer.  Giving value to your craft.


If you cant even give your basic core elements a real mind blowing realism feel to it because you want to develop other things instead, then your game will always only be quarter good or half good at its core and that leads to bordem much faster, expecialy for a crafter.  


Focus on the feel of the core of the game and let new stuff develop from there.  If you had the core I described, you could then have Log hunts in swamps for rare logs like you see on TV shows of them trying to find that one log in the swamp worth alot.


If you give someone realism, people wouldnt get bored with the crafting as fast as some games where you press a button and see an item icon only.   Look at the price of wow gathering items, pages of herbs for the same price, pages of copper for the same price...   Whats worse is no one felt some sort of feeling of actually picking flowers and mining a rock and just a click spamfest of an empty experience of doing something.  They spend hours gathering and its mindless and really boring.    Same for all cores of the last how many games so far.



Grab the Axe and the fishing pole and go down to the nearest secluded woods and stream.


Now cast out a line into the water and listen to the sounds of the trees, the chirps of the birds, and watch the bobber floating in the water.   This is how a game should feel like in the 21st century.  Like you actually are fishing.


Now put on some celtic women in the background wooing you with their beautiful voice.


Next, go over to the nearest tree you can find thats old and ready to be chopped down.  Hit that thing with your axe.  thats right use a real axe and wack that thing.   Feel those woodchips flying back at you and how that bark is flying off the tree like that.  This is how a game should feel in the 21st Century.


I want to play a game that feels just like all the things I do in real life, when I'm not in real life doing it.  I want a living breathing world I feel like I am absolutely able to lose myself in and feel like I enjoy every single thing I do in the game and feel like I do in real life.


I want this game without some idiot pvp'r coming crashing through the woods and ruining my enjoyment of the game world, I want a RPG that is PVE.  Keep that PVP punk kid in the arenas or somewhere he cant ruin my PVE  RPG life.


If a game like Modern Warfare can make war feel realistic enough for people to feel like they actually killed someone with their toys.  Then why cant we have an RPG without PVP where I can feel like I am really doing the things as long and as enjoyable as the real world?


Just saying, this could really help the game industry if you do this.  Creativity comes from experience, get outside and try it once.


Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade

I think you'll be dealing with PvP once you hit the last couple of levels. Or at least I seem to recall reading about that.

The reason it's not full PvP from the start (which a lot of people wanted) is to cut down on the douchebag factor of endlessly griefing people thirty levels lower than you. I wonder how that will change the playing field, random PKing is likely going to be a lot less when they're faced with opponents that can actually fight back.

I'm sad to hear this.  PVP douchebag factor and endless griefing can happen at end game as much as the start.  If I have to deal with any sort of PVP in the game as part of the open world sandbox I'd probably rather not play, since I like to only choose when I PVP like in arenas or battlegrounds.  I dont like PVP in open world where I want to feel the PVE experience the most.


If I wouldnt like it at low levels, why would they expect I would like it at high levels?   I dont understand why games have a progression into PVP in the open world, it should just be ALL PVP or NO PVP at all in the entire game.   I'll have to keep on waiting I think for an all PVE open world sandbox with this level of graphics unfortuantly.

I'm a really big fan of Skyrim style graphics and Skyrim kind of adventuring and exploration.  Also love PVE as the top focus of games I play.  I was wondering what it was like in Black desert.   I always thought PVP should stay to the Arena's and Battlegrounds seperated from PVE gameplay and sandbox. 


PVE  -  I love a game that has a small story but with mostly players adventuring and being able to grind mobs in the middle of nowhere if they want to with themselves or friends and getting an ocassional rare.  

Love finding a ton of objects and items in the game world that makes it feel unique.  Like going to the woods and finding an object that starts a special quest or a rare in the wilderness that drops a cool random rare.

Any of this in the game?


Sandbox - I love the feel that you can roam around in a game world and really feel like your in a massive world the size of earth and get lost in the middle of nowhere or in a dungeon so large you cant find your way out and die a few times trying to find an exit.   

Adventure and discovery with the feeling that I'm finding something special or finding a camp thats great for me and my friends to grind out some mobs and rares.  Spending hours in the middle of the game world and no one around for miles while I'm searching the woods or dungeons.

Any of this in the game I might like?


Will this game be PVE and Sandbox focus only?  I hope so, let me know how PVE and Sandbox its going to be so I have an idea as someone who hasnt had much knowledge of this game.  Love the graphics and its got my attention.


Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by fistorm

blah blah blah

You don't have to participate in pvp if you don't want it. It's not forced on you.

The OP said

"Claim #3: Black Desert has no open world PvP.

This is false. At level 50 you can literally kill anyone you want to kill who is above level 50"


So I'm guessing there will be guilds out there like in EVE or Archeage (mainly Archeage)  Who wont care about penalties of courts and karma and grief you nonstop cause they can.

This breaks my heart.   Another really promising PVE game world I would love to play in and its PVP focused only.   


When will PVE lovers get a game that looks just like this one and has strong PVE focus in it.   FFXIV was good but I want a game like this for my PVE world.


I think this games downfall will be the Easy bosses just like in archeage giving it weak PVE focus.

I think the second biggest downfall is allowing Greens on Greens warfare like Archeage,  it always leads to one Green guild teaming up with Reds against the more powerful Green guild,  wrecking gameplay for everyone.

I'm also curious to see what the skyrim numbers are on Steam, it just went on sale for 5 bucks.  Meaning the full numbers of PC sales should be in after that sale closes.  It was probably also used as a hype for ESO before it goes to console now.

Consoles will probably put this game at over 10 million players easy, especially now that its free to play after box price.  Who wouldn't own one as console player when the MMORPG's on consoles are only TWO so far!

Probably looking at the next WoW but with consoles.

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