Originally posted by MMOExposed
Hey everybody. Something been on my mind lately.

There was this new upcoming Sandbox MMO on the way, that sounds as good, if not better than new hyped up sandbox MMO like Archeage.

Wow was I excited!!!!

that was until I read the part that the game has Perma-Death..... Yikes

Talk about, "depressing moment"....
I wanted to rant on it, but just chose to move on to the next sandbox MMO.

That's when I realized something.........

MOST, IF NOT ALL, SANDBOX MMOs HAVE HARSH DEATH PENALTIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!¡¡¡¡¡¡

But why? WHY is that such a big deal? Doesnt some THEMEPARK MMO have harsh Death Penalties as well?

Again I stop to realize something. Yes it's true that THEMEPARK MMO have many ranges of death penalty in their games,
but SANDBOX MMO seem to ALWAYS HAVE HARSH DEATH PENALTIES!!!!!!!!

Themepark MMO give players the choice to pick the MMO with the death penalty which they like most.

while Death Penality in Sandbox, seem to be the only "FREEDOM OF CHOICE" that players aren't given (ironic actually)

I havent done any research on Arch Age so cant comment on thta.

However I can comment on most of the other games. For instance EvE, Darkfall, UO etc all have full loot in some aspect on death. Some would call this harsh, however, the games play differently than themepark games.

For instance in WoW if you were to die and lose your gear that shows months and months of work. However, in themeparks 90% of the time dying and losing your gear isnt even remotely the same.

If I die in eve I lose maybe 2 - 3 hours of work as opposed to weeks and weeks. There are a few exceptions of course, but for the majority thats how it is.

The benefit of this system is encounters and such have meaning. If you die in WoW, Rift, SWTOR, or other themepark games its meaningless. Nothing matters. Sure your deaths may mean a lost BG but you can always requeue.

In EvE and other themeparks each death inflicts an economic loss. When you are fighting your butt is on the line, this leads to a much more heart pounding and exciting experience and allows conflicts to actually MEAN something.

So yes, while the penalties are harsher there are reasons for it.

Originally posted by youngkg

I lol'ed.

 

So the times is saying 200 mill huh....

 

And 75-90% retention...wow thats historic...lol

I was thinking absolutely ridiculous but historic works.

Originally posted by Msenge

Originally posted by Panther2103

Originally posted by Msenge

Originally posted by Grailer

SWTOR will get another big influx of players when the oceanic release of SWTOR comes out , hopefully with Oceanic servers.

This game is going to be awesome I cant wait . After reading all the great reviews I know this game is going to kick WOW and RIFTS butt.

Wait a sec...In this other threat you just said and I quote:

"

This is the best game ive have ever played .

 

At first I didnt like it but then it grew on me , now I realise it is the best game of all time"

from http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/338053/page/7.

You used past tense in that other thread going on about how great it is and now here in this thread you used a future tense and mention critic reviews as evidence of the game's greatness.  Which is it?

He came from the future and posted about how awesome the game was to him. Now his past self is excited because he has heard about how awesome it was from himself.

If he could do that wouldn't he have given himself the upcoming lotto numbers over how awesome some game was?

He obviously was only able to send one thing back in time, and instead of the cure for cancer, the lottery numbers, or the secret of our existence he chose SWTOR... pretty easy choice imo. **snickers**

Originally posted by Dudehog

There's no incentive for a big gaming site to give a negative review. What would they stand to gain by alienating a company like EA?  The res

Quite simply loyalty with their fan base...

Personally I'd love to see some more honest reviews by folks that share my same interest. Instead, I have to read 50 reviews to hear the one minor negative they sneak in and then read the forums to hear all the haters and more or less piece together the honest and true opinion.

Originally posted by Angier2758

Originally posted by Pyrostasis

Originally posted by IPolygon

So what. The next content update is inbound. People will return.

Edit: That's how gaming works, you blaze through the existing content, have a blast, do something else, and return when new content is available.

Believe you mean thats how "Bad games" work.

Technically to be fair, thats how themeparks work.

I'll take a good sandbox that doesnt require constant dev input over a themepark ride that gets boring the day after the content patch any day.

You might see a good sandbox before you die.  Sadly the people who want sandbox games don't realize that most of their criteria is out dated and stale.  It's rather funny when they ask in forums "What has your game done that's innovative?"  when all they want is a new UO  (which I'll be mean and say was only successful because it had little if any competiition).....

What would you say about EvE online? They are the ONLY MMO created in 2003 thats still growing...

Originally posted by Icewhite

Actually looking forward to the departure of the lookie-loos.  Should decrease the white noise level considerably.

oh its definitely going to get quieter thats for sure...

Originally posted by IPolygon

So what. The next content update is inbound. People will return.

Edit: That's how gaming works, you blaze through the existing content, have a blast, do something else, and return when new content is available.

Believe you mean thats how "Bad games" work.

Technically to be fair, thats how themeparks work.

I'll take a good sandbox that doesnt require constant dev input over a themepark ride that gets boring the day after the content patch any day.

Originally posted by dweeb80

See I think the exact opposite. I personally think SWTOR failing would do the mmo market a hell of a lot of good for a few reasons.

1. It might make the big corporate big wigs reconsider investing again and again into the same exactly formula leading to **Gasp** some innovation
2. It might just teach these folks that we as gamers cant just be bought by big prices, huge marketing schemes, and hype.
3. It might after six years FINALLY make developers wake the hell up.

 

I can understand why people would want SWTOR to fail, I can also see why people think it will change the shape of MMORPG's for the better.  Sadly it won't.  If SWTOR doesn't retain subscribers it weakens future developer requests for investment.  Why invest 50million dollars into a break even MMORPG project?  The argument will become "if an IP like Star Wars and company like Bioware can't make it work for 150million how can you for 50million?"  This doesn't mean the MMORPG genre will die, but will suffer and probably evolve in a direction most won't appreciate.

Also those who think SWTOR is the way it is because "they only want money?" should re-think.  LA, Bioware and EA could have made a lot more profit (not revenue) with little risk by focusing on Star Wars social network and mobile games.  The star wars IP alone would have pulled in 50 million MAU, on average spending $0.10 each.  This is a massive long term profit considering social and mobile games would have cost less than 1% of SWTOR. 

SWTOR is the way it is because 11 million people seem to be addicted to the formula in WoW.  So rather than focusing blame on EA and Bioware - blame those 11 million players. 

SWTOR is like WoW so that entire communities can migrate from WoW with ease.  Dividing established communities through innovation, visuals etc etc is impossible - most people don't care and just want to be doing something with friends.  This has been the hurdle constantly for companies and Bioware have taken design decisions to give their game a chance to appeal by feeling familiar and comfortable at launch.  Surely ensuring they have a populace so the massively multiplayer aspects of the game thrive is vital? 

I disagree.

If anything wow has been in a slow decline over the past few years that is just getting steeper and steeper as the days go on. SWTOR is the way it is because WoW was successfull and corporate execs are focusing on the profitability and potential rather on the actual mood and feel of gamers. Which is what business usually does obviously.

The issue is with MMO'ers a lot of us are willing to try ANYTHING that comes down the block and then we will rip it to shreds when its the same damn game. Game devs for the most part seem to have either lost all touch with gamers or simply never had it to begin with. There are a few exceptions but it seems time and time again we have some rich dude in a corporate office more or less telling us that, "No thats what you say, but what you really want is X" and then a few months later their game implodes because for some reason they refuse to listen to the players.

EA is doing what it is doing to make money, if you disagree with that then... well I cant help yah. TOR failing will hopefully get it through future investors heads that you cant just reskin the same genre. If it doesnt then we will see a nice jump to indie gaming, however I dont think thats going to happen. MMO's simply have too much cash in them and they will continue to be chain produced (and most will fail) until we get another solid hit.

I just hope someone wakes up and starts innovating again and coming up with something completely different.

Originally posted by senadin

 

---

Originally posted by wormywyrm
I don't want games like TOR, I would rather start over with low budget MMOs and see them gain momentum down the right path.  The path layed out by UO --> SWG  --> ???    NOT the path laid out by EQ --> WoW  --> a bunch of really bad rip offs.

---

 

Well technically it went like this...

UO --> EQ --> SWG --> WoW....

And SWG was not a low budget....

 

Guess you didnt understand...

UO and SWG were sandbox games

EQ and WoW were theme park games

Thats why he listed them on seperate tracks.

A better way to list it would be...

Sandbox track

UO - > AC - > Shadowbane - > SWG -> EvE Online ->

Theme Park track

EQ -> EQ2 -> WoW -> WAR - > AOC -> Rift -> SWTOR

Both tracks are extremely different games. One focuses on player driven content that needs very little dev creation the other is 100% developer induced fun.

One could stop getting content and play on for years just fine... the other would die rather quickly

Originally posted by BigBadWolfe

Okay so I'm hearing a lot of reports from players saying that they like TOR but they don't want to stay subbed to it, or that they are going to cancel and resub back to the game when they've added more content/fixed issues.

DON'T DO THAT.

EA/Bioware spent a lot of money on SW:TOR, I'm hearing estimates around $300 million or so, that's the most money a company has ever tossed at the MMO industry.  You WANT them to toss money at us.  However in order to cover such a big investment, Bioware needs an evern bigger return, and that's where the MMO community comes in.  Unlike other gaming industries, MMOs need to establish a relationship with the playerbase to keep making money, and lately that relationship as soured. A lot of developers think the MMO community has turned into a bunch of loud-mouth, lazy, fickle bunch of spoiled brats.

We need to change our ways and have more realistic expectations of new MMOs if the industry is going to survive. 

1.) We need to understand that a game that just launched is simply not going to have as much end-game content as a game that's been out for over a 1-6years.

2.) We need to understand that if we want new content, we have to pay for it.  If you like the game but want more content, unsubbing isn't going to help, but only make things worse.

3.) We really need to stop comparing everything to WoW.  I think this is self-explanitory.

4.) We really need to stop wishing every MMO that's not your kind of MMO will fail.  Just because I might not like that style of MMO doesn't mean that it should fail, and nobody be allowed to play it.

I'm not a SW:TOR fanboy, I'm just concerned what will happen to the industry if a huge financial investment like TOR can't buy its way into the market.  I can imagine that it's failure will create another black hole, similiar to Warhammer, where the industry was stuck in the dark ages of bad mmos for another 2-3 years.  Or even worse, MMOs turn out to be an unprofitable fad and they pull the plug like they did with the Guitar Hero type games.

So in conclusion if you do like Star Wars: The Old Republc, give them your money.  TOR may not be the best game in the market, or any good at all, but it's definitely super expensive, and it's new, and EA gets really mad if they don't get paid.  We want to keep the relationship between MMO companies and communities good, or they might pull out and go make cheap browser games or something.

See I think the exact opposite. I personally think SWTOR failing would do the mmo market a hell of a lot of good for a few reasons.

1. It might make the big corporate big wigs reconsider investing again and again into the same exactly formula leading to **Gasp** some innovation
2. It might just teach these folks that we as gamers cant just be bought by big prices, huge marketing schemes, and hype.
3. It might after six years FINALLY make developers wake the hell up.

Originally posted by teakbois

To keep the thread moving Ill post mine before bed:

 

The story of a blue ball determined to rescue the pink ball of his dreams no matter how many harmless snakes he must pass and no matter how many tower floors he must ascend

Sounds like marble madness

Originally posted by defroststar

Ack! 

Get back here, frog! 

Don't touch that - it is radioactive!

Now you're jumping down a hole?!!

I'm coming after you!

AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHhhhhhh!   

...

Whoa, sweet ride!

Going to guess Battletoads

Originally posted by Zippy

I just gained some respect for Bioware.  Any player should know its an exploit to loot level 50 gear when they are a low level.  If they can get to Illum they should report and bug it, not exploit it.  BW did the right thing giving them a short term ban.  More games should do  he same and let people know any exploiting will result in severe punishment.  They are lucky it was not a permanent ban.

Its not an exploit you can fly your ship there as early as level 16

Originally posted by mcburly

Originally posted by Mundus

@mcburly The problem is not what SOPA is allegedly aimed at (stopping piracy), but what it actually does.

You might want to read this: http://www.tomshardware.com/news/toms-hardware-sopa-Stop-Online-Piracy-Act-PROTECT-IP-Senate,14393.html

yet if pirating hasnt gotten out of control like it has then its possible this act wouldnt be an issue. This can be argued many different ways and there are areas of that act I dont agree with. As someone who just wants to enjoy the games I play Im tired of these hacker groups pulling this crap. That last attack on sony effected me as I wasnt able to game. In no way was I blaming Sony on that, im blaming anon. plain and simple. If they really have a "righteous cause" then they better make sure it only targets the ones they intend it to.

 

im against pirating and thats all. As someone who works within this industry, I am the one who gets screwed over by products getting stolen, pirated instead of being purchased. Its definitely not the big wigs. All they do is cut payroll if business is getting slow. Most if not all are pretty well off so if they so happen to go out of business, they will be fine.

I think most people are anti piracy, but  this is like cutting off your nose to save your face. I'm all for going after the pirates, but this is NOT the way to do it.

Hell just look at your sig and icon, did you create those images? Do you own the rights? Thats infringement right there. Do you see how ridiculous this can get?

Originally posted by Puremallace

Originally posted by Pyrostasis

So sites like youtube, twitter, facebook, internet forums like this one, web hosting companies, search engines etc etc are all targeted. This will pretty much kill social networking and any and all sites based on user generated content.

Imagine if someone at MMORPG.com had to authorize any and every post on the site.

So before you go throwing your support in for a bill you might want to see what exactly it is they are supporting. I'm not a pro-hacker but I definitely wont be doing business with sony anymore if I can help it.

[Mod Edit]

I dont know there are a lot of rather large companies against it. Google, Twitter, Amazon, Microsoft, Ebay, Paypal, just to name a few.

I know they are talking about a national blackout of webservices prior to the vote to help get the word out. Imagine if all of those services shut down for even just a day....

For the story click here

Originally posted by mcburly

Originally posted by VowOfSilence

Originally posted by mcburly

Originally posted by Zadawn

Originally posted by mcburly

someone needs to take these dumb hackers down. these companies have every right to not wanting people to pirate software. If someone doesnt feel the item is worth paying for then dont pay for it. pirating is theft no matter how you slice it. This group anonymous's cause is ridiculous and they are just trying to show how "powerful" they are because they are good with a computer.

Then i must be the greatest thief there ever was/is.

thats just sad

 

unfortunate how common it is for people to believe this is ok.

so i take it that you believe that a maximum penalty of 5 years in prison for 10 pieces of music or movies is ok?

I'm afraid the world isn't as black-and-white as you'd like it to be.

so just cause the penalty is harsh its wrong? lol

In what way am i going to feel bad for someone who decides to steal a form of entertainment. I dont care if the penalty is death. Its not like they are stealing food to survive.

So just to be clear, you are fine with the death penalty for any and all copy right infringement?

Originally posted by mcburly

someone needs to take these dumb hackers down. these companies have every right to not wanting people to pirate software. If someone doesnt feel the item is worth paying for then dont pay for it. pirating is theft no matter how you slice it. This group anonymous's cause is ridiculous and they are just trying to show how "powerful" they are because they are good with a computer.

The funny thing is this sopa act isnt going to stop pirating but it is going to seriously hamper if not destroy the internet as we know it.

Currently websites are not held responsible for user generated content that infringes as long as they take things down when they see it / its reported and do their best to self police.

With this new policy that will no longer be the case. Everyone will be liable for what their users do post, which means anything thats posted has to be screened first in advance.

So sites like youtube, twitter, facebook, internet forums like this one, web hosting companies, search engines etc etc are all targeted. This will pretty much kill social networking and any and all sites based on user generated content.

Imagine if someone at MMORPG.com had to authorize any and every post on the site.

So before you go throwing your support in for a bill you might want to see what exactly it is they are supporting. I'm not a pro-hacker but I definitely wont be doing business with sony anymore if I can help it.

Originally posted by NMStudio

Originally posted by Pyrostasis

Originally posted by NMStudio

From their site, which is NOT 2 1/2 years old: "HeroEngine is designed for Massive Multiplayer games, easily accommodating tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands or even millions of players in a cluster."

Im glad its designed to do that...however it is not currently doing so.

There are a lot of startups in the technology industry that make wild claims and when you actually get down to brass tax its not quite what you thought it was.

I remember a year ago there was talks of a new engine that could host billions and billions of on screen pixels then it came out they couldnt be animated correctly. So while gorgeous it wasnt really applicable.

I have never heard of the hero engine, and its quite possible that when its setup it can host good numbers. Hell eve's server can run 60k - 70k people. The question is what is the draw back?

Eve's system works well because of how the game is designed, you never have more than say 2000 people in the same system / on the same node. However, with theme park games thats not the case. If EvE were a theme park game their setup wouldnt work.

Hero's engine will definitely have limitation. It just depends on what they are and if a game is acctually acceptable based on said limitations...or...even used for that matter.

The fact is, you don't know what it is currently doing or not doing.

The Hero Engine manages things in much the same way as Eve's, by limitting the number of people you are actualy interacting with.  Their documentation focuses on designing the game to handle as many players as you need, but reminds you that if you have, for example, 100 players all standing together, every single movement or action of each player has to be sent to 99 other players.  So, everyone jumps to the left and there are 100x100 updatings being sent out.

One of the devs talks about a test he did with 5000 AI characters active in a single node, all completely aware of each other, essentially testing this out.

I am aware it is not running a single game live atm.

I am also aware that AI characters do not = actual players. Darkfall pretty much proved that to us.

My point is, until its picked up and used its all just hype.

Originally posted by NMStudio

From their site, which is NOT 2 1/2 years old: "HeroEngine is designed for Massive Multiplayer games, easily accommodating tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands or even millions of players in a cluster."

Im glad its designed to do that...however it is not currently doing so.

There are a lot of startups in the technology industry that make wild claims and when you actually get down to brass tax its not quite what you thought it was.

I remember a year ago there was talks of a new engine that could host billions and billions of on screen pixels then it came out they couldnt be animated correctly. So while gorgeous it wasnt really applicable.

I have never heard of the hero engine, and its quite possible that when its setup it can host good numbers. Hell eve's server can run 60k - 70k people. The question is what is the draw back?

Eve's system works well because of how the game is designed, you never have more than say 2000 people in the same system / on the same node. However, with theme park games thats not the case. If EvE were a theme park game their setup wouldnt work.

Hero's engine will definitely have limitation. It just depends on what they are and if a game is acctually acceptable based on said limitations...or...even used for that matter.

Originally posted by Dkompoze

Been playing since beta, have yet to see a gold farmer,maybe your misinformed.

Spam started on my server yesterday