Originally posted by Dubhlaith

This. The people behind the game have a lot more impact than the name of the company they work for. Games Ragnar has been in charge of have been amazing. I am not saying this will be, but I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

The problem for me is that it IS the same people as AO and AoC; I don't mean specific programmers but the management behind it. I do not feel that FC ever made any meaningful efforts to apologize to or adequately compensate the players they totally hosed on launch (and for months after) in AO and which they did *again* to those who bought AoC early.

Does FC have some great ideas, yep and they often have the talent to back it up...eventually. However they also seem happy with a combination of dumping a dysfunctional game in the box on launch day to recoup investment and a "we'll make it better someday," philosophy. Clearly this has worked for them, given how many defenders they still have...but it means unless there is a massive beta/open test that goes very very well indeed I will not be pre-ordering or even buying on launch.

I'd still be a whole lot happier if this were anyone other than Failcom. I'm interested, but FC has a really huge mountain of past failures that they need to prove they are past before I will buy another product from them.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

The Goons don't seem to play MMOs to win them. They seem to play for two reasons - to have fun together and to find creative ways to srew with the rest of the playerbase.

In so far as I have even a tiny problem with the goons, it is that second part. The vast majority of goons are good people and great fun to play with when I have run into them in various games; however there is a tiny minority that not only play for the second reason but who bring a malicious and ugly side to it. When your primary reason for playing a game is to "grief" (in the classic sense of ruining their gameplay, not just beating or besting them) other players, then to me you have some problems...

Yeah, if I haven't made it clear: I played WoW for a good while and enjoyed it; I've played a lot of the RIFT beta and enjoyed it...(although neither game is "ideal" for me, they are well done and I have never said otherwise)

The ad starts off with a fairly standard generic fantay bit, guys in armor..a dragon etc...and then a rift opens with tentacles coming out and the tagline "You're not in Azeroth anymore!" or something close to that....

I was mildly shocked and amused to see them spending the bucks to hit primetime advertising on a reasonably mainstream cable channel as well as taking on WoW directly like that.

On an interesting note, I was shocked to see a TV ad for RIFT on in primetime on Scyfy network last night; clearly directly taking on WoW.

Interesting choice on their part, it will be fun to see how it pays off on release.

Originally posted by fiontar

Once again, you abuse the term "Theme Park" and misrepresent the linearity of the title. Your Black and White "It's either an unstructured mess with nothing but player generated content, or it's 'Theme Park'" mentality just is not at all useful. As I stated, you can graph a game out between the two extremes and this game is closer to the middle of that line than most other quest heavy titles.

Once again you continue to spout gibberish trying to confuse the issue. We clearly have a different definition of a theme park game; I'm sure that I am right and that the vast majority here agree with me...but whatever. If you really want to plant a flag and try to defend a game with a progression of questing through hubs (while guided by pointers to destinations) as somehow being non-linear, feel free.

The thread has been thoroughly hijacked into a pointless debate on soul balancing anyways ;)

So I will close with a simplified restatement of my review: It is a solidly done tradtional fantasy MMORPG which combines many elements familiar to players of WoW/Lotro/WAR. The studio should be proud that by the horrific standards of the present market it is in great shape for launch.

Originally posted by Ceryk

Though I have to disagree with the overland travel comment from the OP.

As far as leveling goes, they've specifically stated that they made it so you don't have to quest to level if you don't want. I've gained several levels just from sealing rifts and invasions. Maybe grinding regular mobs or something isn't as effective, but in an interview, the interviewee specifically mentioned groups that just run around doing Rifts. And as someone else pointed out, you can get to max doing nothing but PvP.

I think you missed my point on the travelling part; It didn't bother me...in fact I liked not being able to port or fast travel all over the world...however the pacing of it is way out of line with the rest of the game. Levelling is faster than in nearly anything I have played, combat is very paced (to the point of being to fast/hectic for me)...while travel is paced much slower...it just struck me as odd.

As for the pace of exp; can you level up on rifts/general killing or PvP sure; but anyone who tries to tell you it is as fast as the quest path is either lying or just doesn't know how to quest efficiently.  On the pvp side, maybe if you played nothing but a pure dps caster and had enough obliging targets it was as fast...but you can also sit in ques waiting to get into the battlegrounds for 30min+ if they are busy...and if you are  a melee character you can come out of the BGs with very little exp at all.

As for "balance" all I will say is that on the pve side it seems fine to me; the build system is very complex and there are many "good" builds...yes and some that suck but respecing if you mess up seems to be really easy. On the pvp side, ranged dps casters just win...which is on par with nearly every game of this type I have played.

It's not really relevent to my overall point (and in fact could be a whole different thread); but to try and argue that Rift is not a themepark is just doing a massive disservice to anyone thinking about it.

The world *is* linear; you go to quest hub A, get a handful of quests to do at point B, when you are done with the quests at hub A you are nicely directed to hub C etc ad nauseum.  The fact that at some points you can choose to go to hub A, C or E (usually because they are slightly different levels) doesn't make it less of a themepark. The fact that some of the guided quest lines send you back through areas where you have been before doesn't make it less of a themepark either.

The quests are well written, the story overall hangs together well and it has a nice feel to it. There is even a nice balance between generic line soloable quest and group dungeon missions; take that praise for what it is and be happy. No one who prefers even a mild sandbox sort of game will be the least bit happy in RIFT, so why try to delude them into trying it?

Warfronts are a thoroughly meaningless sideline; while they offer rewards there isn't really any point to them and don't even come close to the exp rewards of questing. Nor does a battleground (by any name) which you can que for from anywheres and insta port to and from make anything less of a themepark.

PS Just to be clear, I am not talking about lvls 1-10 here, those go by in a blur...I levelled several characters to the mid 20s on both sides.

Now the beta is wrapping up, I figured I might as well post my opinions of the game :)

First off, RIFT is a very derivative game. In a great many ways it does exactly what WoW did when it first came out; merges many of the best elements from existant games into a new one that does a great many things very very well.

The worst problem I saw from a technical standpoint is that the game does have some lag/stability issues when massively populated or very high player density...however, I have *never* in 10yrs+ of online gaming seen a game that didn't have those sorts of issues at launch. Other than that, the game is remarkably stable and very playable. I am pointedly ignoring any "balancing" issues between abilities and such because lets face it, we all know that those will get tweaked over time.

That said, as a general overview the game is a very fast paced themepark of the WoW/WAR style with lots of little conveniences, tweaks and just generally cool new bits added in. The one glaring exception to this is that in a game which is otherwise fast paced and easy, overland travel is a major pain in the behind. I wouldn't care, but it is jarringly out of step with the pace of the rest of the game.

I find the graphics and look of the game overall to be very nice; not stunning but well done and less "cartoony" than WoW and far less "anime" than the asian-derived games. The writing is well done and the quest lines are relatively interesting, but it is still a hook-through-the-nose themepark quest grind...there is no parity between quest exp and killing exp. Gear is the standard WoW-esque progression with not a whole lot of variation or point to it below 20th-25th level at least. Crafting is a relatively pointless skill-up grind; I'm sure it has a place but it is the least attractive system of the game.

I found combat to be overly hectic; a button-mashing arcade-style fest that was actually too fast for me...but I freely admit to being old and slow...so if you like that sort of thing, I am sure it is great. The rift invasions are great fun for a while and remain an amusing side note throughout; overall they are MUCH better done than the public quests from WAR. However, at low population times or if the are is just unused they become a zone disruption beyond belief. I fthey aren't stopped, they really will shut down the area for any meaningful questing by "appropriately" levelled characters for the area.

So, overally while it is just not the sort of game that I am looking for it is very solidly done and well put together. It will appeal a lot to many WoW players.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

I've read numerous posts, blogs, articles etc. that seem to suggest that the only thing SOE ever did wrong with this title was the NGE.  SOE made "a" mistake we're told, they've apologized and learned from it. 

So, what do you think.  Is it true that the NGE was the only thing SOE ever did wrong with this title, or is someone forgetting an awful lot of nastiness?

The NGE was a transcendent moment of sheer stupidity. The magnitude of the disaster it caused made every previous bug, mistake and "oops" of SWG seem trivial.

SWG was badly flawed from the begining; the list of problems with core systems, exploits, bugs and lore were legion...but none of them had killed the game or made it unplayable. Many of the problems could have been fixed or had already been fixed.

Honestly, by the incredibly lax standards of the present day it would be only be fair to characterize the NGE as a wonderful launch :) However at the time, it represented the single biggest "FU" ever given by the management of a major MMO company to their existant playerbase. (Who holds that title now is somewhat up for debate, sadly!)

I don't really consider this to be about "casual" vs "hardcore" as that is more of a personal choice and limitation. If the game is fun to play and you enjoy doing it, who cares how long getting to a level cap takes? I *enjoyed* playing lower levelled characters in EQ and often did so wih friends even after we all had much higher level ones.  I also consider myself definitely more on the "casual" side these days.

I also don't think you can de-couple the speed of levelling from the problem and claim is just devs making games only for the endgame. One logically follows from the other; how much dev time should be spent on any given range of lower level areas and activities if even the "average casual" player is only going to spend a weekend in them?

Originally posted by MimiEZ

I don't get how getting to the level cap faster is devolving...its just different. Some would argue that is an example of it evolving because they hate leveling. I'm not one of these people as I generally like leveling. 

I don't think MMORPG are devolving, I think they're evolving, but at a dramatically low rate for a type of entertainment, almost the same rate of actually living things :)

Why don't you make a list of things you would like that current MMO's don't have that you would consider an example of evolving?

The race to the level cap has become so casual and so fast that it has eclipsed all other aspects of MMORPG-play; the faster you get to the level cap and the more the game is designed around the "endgame", the more trivial every aspect prior to that magical endgame becomes. Honestly the state most games are in now, I'd support totally level-less games where you just started at the "top"; seriously why bother having *anything* below the level cap if you are designing the game for the "endgame"?

I should be clear, I don't blame WoW for this at all...the trend was well established before they launch. At worst they have accelerated and amplified it, not created it. Also, I don't say there is anything *wrong* with that sort of game, it just isn't what I am looking for. I'd also argue that the spectactular lack of success by all the "WoW-killers" would sort of imply that the player base which likes WoW is, amazingly enough, playing WoW and I wish more companies would make games outside that box.

When did advancement stop taking any time and when did the idea that gameplay should be fun for its' own sake not just a race to an "endgame" go away?

I'm not expecting to like every game, nor am I looking for the "perfect" game..(nor am I going to list what I want, we've done that in endless other threads); I'm just wondering why the "bar" for success seems to have been moved so far up? Has funding become that hard? Coders that overpaid? Is it just impossible for a company to shoot for a polished game that gets a mere 100k subscribers and consider itself happy / successful anymore?

Or has the business model for the entire industry changed to a "crash and burn" of massive investment, big box sales driven by hype followed by a horrid launch and slow death? Is the WoW-clone, casual friendly race to the endgame the only model that we will see even midling studios release?

I realize this isn't exactly a unique or entirely new line of thought but it really struck me today.  In terms of the things I really want from an MMORPG, the entire genre has been going backwards and this is not a recent change. I realized that with only a single exception, I have played every new MMO for a shorter period of time than whatever MMO I was playing previously. Now some of that is due to simple "burn out", I won't argue that...but there is more to it than that.

In EQ, my first MMO, I only ever had one character at the level cap and that wasn't a big deal to me. I enjoyed *playing* the game, it wasn't some kind of race. I had multiple alts on different servers at different levels that I would go and play just because hanging out at level XX doing things with friends at that level was fun. Yes, the game was unpolished in many ways and there are lots of elements to newer games that I would have liked...but that basic "pacing" and gameplay was enjoyable.

In every MMO since then, I have had multiple characters at the level cap and with the notable exception of LotRO basically the entire game centered around being at that level cap. Everything below the level cap was just something you got through as fast as possible on the way to the "endgame". That race to the end has gotten faster and faster with every generation of game and everything else has become meaningless.  In a recent beta, I was 10th level in less than 2 hours and 20th by the end of my second session of  gaming...not once in that time did I bother to speak to another player, look to buy any gear or even bother to optimise my gear; there was just no point. I didn't need any one else to adventure, there was no point in buying gear that would be outlevelled in a matter of minutes and why bother to even try and make longer term friends when even an hours difference in play time would see them beyond my point in every quest arc?

Now as I said, none of this is exactly new...and I grasp that clearly many are happy with the frenzied hamster race to level caps, but why do the companies involved not see that it just speeds up burnout? Or do they not care, since if they pay off dev costs with the opening box sales, who cares about game longevity or player retention? Is everyone just chasing the lure of a WoW-esque payday?

As amusing as lines of thought like this are, ultimately the answer will be whatever nonsensical reason the author(s) of the fiction want to justify. Any concept of rational progression or even of keeping to established "canon" of the universe was tossed out the window years ago.

The reasons mentioned are plausible, but if they want the reason to be that the Sith Empire just wanted control of the one-eared fluffy force-bunny population on one of those insignificant border worlds then that is what it will be.

The answer is simple, because everyone has a different definition of a "good" MMORPG. I *know* from what has been publicly released that BioWare is not making a game that I will like. This bothers me because as an old SWG vet and longtime SW fan I was hoping for a "second chance"...but I have simply accepted that and will stay away from SWTOR.

The game may well be a commercial success for BioWare, they are a solid company with a good history and there are lots of reasons to expect they can pull off a good launch. However, even if they do everything perfectly there will be a lot of people who end up disappointed because they were expecting/wanted something that the game is NOT. So, due to that and other factors any little mistake they make is going to be blown out of all proportion...

This will PO the fans, but Perpetuum is a bit over-rated in this topic.

It is a solid game, well done technically and stable. It is also a great deal of fun...for a while and that is where the commentary goes off the rails. The game has NO depth and there really isn't any indication the company is working to add it. The gameplay areas are tiny, the missions few and repetitive...even the "pvp" side is just too small.

The mechanics and concepts are sound, but saying it has depth is either delusional or just rampant faboi-ism.

I have to agree that if you aren't going to do a crafting system with any depth then there is little reason for every game to include it. Many of the current themeparks seem to have a crafting system tossed in just, "because they had to have one".

Personally, I'd rather have a sandbox type game with a serious crafting system, but I know I would find some of themeparks more enjoyable if they just got rid of the wasted systems. Toss out all the "junk" loot that serves as nothing but cumbersome coin tokens; get rid of crafting that has no depth or personality.

I want a great many things from this game, fortunately I do not expect to get the vast majority of them.

I would like to get a game with a true open world, balanced "classless" system, ridiculously large numbers of factions and options, detailed player based crafting, an intricate economy, lots of tools for "player generated content", signigicant risk and loss from death, dynamic world reactions and quest spawns, NO instances at all after the tutorial; and probably a few more besides.

What I *expect* and will be happy with: A very derivative modern MMO with many of the features and gameplay of games like WoW, AoC and LotRO. It will be a themepark much moreso than a sandbox, but hopefully it will be well implemented. On the good days I am hoping for WAR done right...on the bad days I suspect it will be a dismal failure of a WoW-knock off.

Wow people are still flogging this dead horse? Give it up, the rapid solo'ers are never going to get it.

I prefer soloing myself most of the time, but I have zero problem with the idea that in some games that means there is content that I will not get to do and that is the essence of the issue. The unreasonable ones want to be able to solo through everything in the game; go everywhere, get everything and do everything. There are games that will let you do that; I don't even have a problem with a game calling itself an MMO and having little more than social functions but which lets players solo everything...but that shouldn't be *every* game.

The argument of the fanatic soloers seems to be that "because there are more of them" they have the right to play any game at all and whine, forum rage and whimper until the devs cave in and make it the soloers paradise they want. Of course they are free to do whatever they like, but I disagree with them completely and I'm sickened by how much the industry has caved in to them over the years. Catering to soloists is a LOT of why games have gotten shallower, simpler and easier.

This is another category that really needed a "none of the above"...nothing any of those choices did was actually innovative.