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News & Features Discussion  » General: Editorial: Static Rewards

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38 posts found
  Dana

Novice Member

Joined: 1/07/04
Posts: 2425

 
OP  10/11/06 12:15:53 PM#1

Neil Thompson looks at what happens when games encourage everyone to seek the same items at each step of the way.

Over the last couple of years I have noticed a trend in most online games. EverQuest 2, World of Warcraft, Dungeons and Dragons Online to name but a few, all have the same problem: the player characters all look the same.

I'm not talking about their faces (though the differences here are mostly negligible too). I am talking about the way they dress. It seems to me that everyone is shopping at the same tailor/blacksmith. Take a tour around any game and you will notice that players of similar levels are usually dressed identically.

The full editorial is here.

Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios

  Hakiko

Novice Member

Joined: 6/13/06
Posts: 103

10/11/06 12:43:42 PM#2
While I agree with the point of this article I do not agree with the usual flawed hardcore/casual oversimplification and logic found here:

Let's look at it from another perspective; we are all farmers ploughing our land, planting crops etc. All our farms are perfectly equal in size and quality, the only difference is while you are out tending your crops I am out socialising, enjoying life while you toil away. Harvest comes around and we all harvest our crops and I notice that my yield is a lot smaller than yours, why is that? I'm sure I don't need to spell out the answer but as this is a word processor I guess I will have to - you put more effort than I did.

Of course in the real world the farmer could go to college and put in hard work for a short time learning something and then be able to make far more than his former farmer neighbors  in a lot less hours worked per week. In the real world time worked does not equal pay off. You can not make more than a highly skilled person by grinding away at minimum wage for an absurd number of hours a week, you just won't catch the guys making $50-$100 an hour.

Most MMOs do not allow for cleverness to outweigh dumb hours worked.
  Red_Rider

Novice Member

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 261

10/11/06 1:00:39 PM#3

    I think the probelm is a lot simpler,  what is missing is an outer layer of clothing.  In real life I believe that most peope in armor WOULD like pretty much the same,  I think only the king and a very few very rich people would have decorated armor.  The main difference betweem knights would be the outer clothing, cloaks, tabards and tunics.  So just give a way to make a variety of outer clothing and let people keep their static awards.

  Even in Ultima Online it was more the gown and cloak that differentiated the characters and the armor itself looked pretty much all the same.

  Rattrap

Novice Member

Joined: 9/09/04
Posts: 1594

Freedom of choice
is what you got,
freedom from choice
is what you want!

10/11/06 1:13:01 PM#4
Heh , a nice editorial about World of Warcraft

Anyway , It is not that everyone looks the same that is problem (although it sucks).

It is the fact that everyone has the same gear that they got from quests. Blizzard has shot itself in the knee.

First they invent game with totaly random gear drops -> Diablo
And then they go and make WOW where a certan monster will always drop the same peace of gear.


In short , there is no chance for economy - when there is this set of items that once you got you dont need anything anymore...



But than again that is the problem with the whole game. It has an end. A brick wall that you hit.

Like it is a single player rpg in which you reached end scene...





"Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas

  shae

Novice Member

Joined: 5/06/05
Posts: 2511

"Don''t take life seriously because you can''t come out of it alive."

- Warren Miller

10/11/06 1:21:05 PM#5

/sigh

I wonder how many Anti-WoW posts this is going to spawn. Because it's the only game with this problem, right everyone...?

Anyways, I have to agree, completely. Personally I feel this is all appart of a larger issue, which is basing the action part of a game around gaining gear. When you make gear the centric goal of doing "X" instance because with that gear you'll be able to do "X" Boss fight, well then what's going to happen? Everyone is going to want that gear of course and thus everyone ends up looking the same.

EQ2, WoW, DDO and others all have this same thing, getting to the end of a dungeon crawl isn't about the fun of doing it, or the story line your envoloping yourself into along with your gaming friends, it's about getting to the boss fights so that they drop "whatever" and then you rinse and repeat, going up higher and higher is you gain this and that level.

The sad thing, it works. EQ2 certainly is hurting, we all know WoW wont be declaring broke anytime soon, so who knows. Maybe it's just those of us that remember a different way that don't like the way things are going, maybe we're the one that are wrong for wanting something different.

  Yeebo

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/05
Posts: 1360

10/11/06 1:22:10 PM#6
I can definitly see what you are talking about at high levels in WoW, and EQ II in general.  But at lower levels in WoW, you have no-one but yourself to blame if you are wearing the same outfit as everyone else. Usually in any given ten level stretch there are at least four "sets" of whatever type of armor your are wearing available.  The stats on the items are randomly generated, so you can  wear a set of whatever you like with whatvere stats you like if you are patient and check the AH a lot.  In fact, mxing and matching sets to make my lowbie alts look as cool as possible is one of my favorite activities in the game.  The reason that you see folks of the same level generally wearing the same gear is that they are wearing quest rewards. Most players don't bother to worry that much about what they are wearing until they hit the end game.  An honestly, you level so quickly that they are probably right ...unless you just enjoy getiing together nice looking sets of lowbie gear.  Even if you are a "powergamer" and want to be decked in blues at all times, there are multiple instances with their own loot tables in any given  level range. 

Obviously, all that changes at 60.  For each class there is only one set of "best" level 60 gear, an I think that stinks.  It's one of the main reasons I feel like the endgame in WoW falls on it's face.

One thing that would make a hige difference, imo, is a tinting system.  DAoC and EQ have really nice tinting systems where you can customize the appearance of gear at any level.  Other solutions include games like CoH or PSO where you design the look of your PC when you roll him/ her and it doesn't affect their stats in any way.  Lots of different sets of viable end game gear would obviously be even better...but that's just a pipe dream.  We'll nevr see that in any major game....


I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.

  LordVanidor

Novice Member

Joined: 4/27/04
Posts: 70

10/11/06 1:28:26 PM#7
I'm pissed off my space ship looks the same as everyone elses. EvE sucks.
  Netherbeast

Novice Member

Joined: 2/03/06
Posts: 55

10/11/06 1:30:38 PM#8
City of Heroes has done it right. Loot doesn't really exixts and you can look like any hero or villain you can think of and more. Your cape doesn't add to your defense, your powers do. This allows for an extremely large amount of diversity.

Star Wars Galaxies was a game that had everyone in the same armor. Eventually they added more armor, but it was attack an of the clones.

D&D Pen and Paper had stats for the same armor but one set of +1 Scale Mail didn't look like another set of +1 Scale mail. Online games should strive to add many variations of the same armor, removing the same look for everyone.

Or better yet, look at what Hero's Journey is doing. You can get any clothing or armor and it doesn't have the same stat efect, rather they have slots which add the powers. The game isn't out yet, but what it sounds like is that you can have a tunic with 2 slots be just as powerful as plate armor that has 2 slots. Same with weapons. You add defenses or attacks into the slots like diablo or FF7. In this way, there is a reduced chance of looking like everyone else.

I hope to see more innovation like city of heroes and heroes journey in other games.

Give a man fire and he''s warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he''s warm the rest of his life.

  User Deleted
10/11/06 1:57:29 PM#9

This is also another reasion that SWG pre-cu was so good.

Despite what everyone says, not every one cared about armor. and with the player crafted nature of them, sometimes bone armor was just as good as composite... so it was about looks. Resistances in armor varied, and no one set had them all, there was always something that could get threw. Most other mmo's just have the armor factor.

 

and lets not forget that you could mix and match pieces of armor types in different areas of your body.

Bone helm, ubese chest, composite legs... Nothing on the arms ..etc.. Bio-clothings.... etc... etc... etc...

  Liddokun

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/03
Posts: 1666

10/11/06 2:33:00 PM#10

I haven't seen any mmorpg where player skill is more important than loot. It's always about loot, loot and more loot. And even in pvp games the better geared person will almost always beat out the lesser geared ones. A prime example of this is of course World of Warcraft. A lvl 60 mage in greens will have almost no chance of beating a lvl 60 mage in full set Tier 2. But of course this is fair. Life isn't fair.

  BountyGreg

Novice Member

Joined: 5/14/06
Posts: 37

10/11/06 4:25:00 PM#11
getting the same stuff from a mob wouldn't be a problem actually, if the item wouldn't always do the same thing.
We loot stuff and strangely they always have the best quality, aren't used, and are looted as they would have just been done. Added to this, they always do the exact same thing, same damage, protection, effect or whatever it is the loot does.
I think this is due to the nature of the instances and dungeons of those games. You go through a dungeon and at the end, the boss is waiting...To me it seems like bosses are lazy and just wait for their death.
And why does a dungeon HAVE to have a boss actually? I mean, you should go into a dungeon to see what's in, all we do now in games is searching the shortest way to the end. If we could just run through I bet we would do it.
When a dungeon has be beaten, another spawn should come, how comes NPC called "Ivan" always comes back and revives? is he a zombie or so? I always get to kill the same guy, either I do one particular dungeon 1 time or 50 times.
We should get rid of our bad habits and start to play for enjoyment and not for item-stats
  Anofalye

Novice Member

Joined: 11/19/03
Posts: 7445

The enemy is so dumb! They believe that WE are the enemy! - A famous orc commander.

10/11/06 4:32:21 PM#12

I respect other players that are stronger than me if they acquire this by playing the same gameplay I do (thereby I can dream of succeeding) or if they buy it with RL $ and that is a secondary way to progress, so that most peoples getting where they are, get there by doing the same gameplays I do.

The day someone is stronger than me by playing ANOTHER gameplay, I ask myself...is my gameplay at least EQUAL or better to get there, if the answer is no, I leave right away.

If a grouper is stronger than me, I will just work harder (will I succeed or not is another topic in itself).  If a raider is stronger than me, I will just change game.  Quite simple indeed.

- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - René Levesque about the denial NO on the poll to his dream, project and goal. (Free translation)

  Liddokun

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/03
Posts: 1666

10/11/06 4:35:43 PM#13
One way to make an mmorpg more immersive is thru scripted instances. Example: Instead of BIGBADBOSS_001 just waiting at the bottom of the dungeon wait for his eventual demise by Mr_Knightinarmor_005963. He would be in his chambers pacing around or in his study planning more evil deeds and as soon as the heroes approaches his room, BIGBADBOSS_001 would sense the hero(es) and bust open the doors to his room, and give a thunderous roar in defiance and say stuff like "Time to die, puny humaaaan!" Then charge at the heroes.
  Antioche

Novice Member

Joined: 12/14/03
Posts: 142

...

10/11/06 5:44:11 PM#14
I personally think that all items in any game should decay over time, except certain things that players would always have the chance of losing via death, or it being stolen from them, or going missing if the player were to stop playing the game or not log into the game for certain period of time.

More emphasis should be placed on players doing in-game designs for clothing and armor. If it were possible to create a system in a game that allowed players to do custom scrollwork, artwork, etc. to clothing and armor that would greatly increase the uniqueness of player models. Of course the load this put onto the servers and the players' connections might be too great.

It would also be nice to see armor and weapons visually degrade instead of me checking the con/dur of my stuff. I would rather be able to actually see dents in my armor, rips on my clothes, and notches in my weapons. I'd like to see bloodstains on my weapons/armor as well that stayed there until I cleaned them off. If I never cleaned them then they would just stay bloody and dirty etc. :)

The fact that the player's adventuring has no affect on the appearance of their avatar certainly detracts from a player's ability to feel immersed in the game.

It is pathos we lack, and this lack of pathos makes the worlds we explore quite stale.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Antioche

  uncus

Novice Member

Joined: 8/18/04
Posts: 530

10/11/06 7:47:28 PM#15

Originally posted by Antioche
More emphasis should be placed on players doing in-game designs for clothing and armor. If it were possible to create a system in a game that allowed players to do custom scrollwork, artwork, etc. to clothing and armor that would greatly increase the uniqueness of player models. Of course the load this put onto the servers and the players' connections might be too great.


The major problem with this - besides bandwidth as you very insightfully point out - is kiddies that want to use swastikas, penises or other symbols that many would find offensive.  Look at the number of idiots with names like "Sir Spoogalot"...do you think that giving them crayons is a good idea?

Your suggestion of gear without vivible stats is excellent!  Unfortunately, I again doubt that the unwashed masses would stand for it.  I remember when Ryzom was in beta and there was no "conning" of MOBs; you had to guess how tough they were by size alone.  That hit the forums and went away quickly [and they still had few subscribers...]  Great ideas, but most likely unable to withstand the pressure of the lazy or obnoxious.

<p align=center><a target=_blank href=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm><img border=0 src=http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg></a></p>

  Brynn

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/03
Posts: 345

10/11/06 8:47:09 PM#16

Originally posted by uncus

Your suggestion of gear without vivible stats is excellent!  Unfortunately, I again doubt that the unwashed masses would stand for it.  I remember when Ryzom was in beta and there was no "conning" of MOBs; you had to guess how tough they were by size alone.  That hit the forums and went away quickly [and they still had few subscribers...]  Great ideas, but most likely unable to withstand the pressure of the lazy or obnoxious.



I love that statement.   It attests to the maturity level of most players.

I think most of the posters in this thread feel as I do. A couple of the upcoming online games are listening to us, but not most. Afterall, if most players are the level uncus states, there are more of them to pay the monthly fees.

And don't forget the gold farmers. They have to make a living too. Item centric games guarantee that they will.

  Sabbicat

Novice Member

Joined: 6/19/06
Posts: 261

Common Sense - The ultra rare loot with extreme decay.

10/12/06 12:29:19 AM#17

I say randomize the loot drops. For the life of me I could never really accept that the Uber Wolf carried the Sword of Destiny tucked away below his tail. And no matter how the fight was going it didnt pop out until it was killed.

Crafting should diversified. And the truely creative should be the ones to make that Sword. And someone should be made to work really hard and save all there shillings to buy said sword.

Sending 70 players to battle over who gets the drop is just rediculaous and probably why I gave up on these games long before reaching uberness.

IMHO

  sumo_koten

Novice Member

Joined: 8/29/04
Posts: 23

10/12/06 12:32:52 AM#18
 Why do we need uber-loot that places one person far above those that do not have it? Why can we not reduce the impact of items on the power level of characters in-game?
  Bleakmage

Novice Member

Joined: 12/06/04
Posts: 177

I cut my teeth on Pong. \m/

10/12/06 1:22:53 AM#19

I remember how, long ago, with my Wookie that I got to look just like I wanted wore clothing that I took painstaking hours to have tailor-made for me to get it just right.

And then there was World of Warcraft, and the image that persists in my mind every time this subject comes up is how I was once in a group when all four or five of us had exactly the same armor/look. . .at the time I thought it was ludicrously retarded, but now that I think about it, it being WoW and all, wouldn't that be the way we would look if we were being generated by a building in one of the Warcraft RTS games?

Can hardly wait for Hero's Journey! I just hope the howl of the whiners doesn't ruin that game like it has most MMORPGs in general. I remember back in Asheron's Call when it took a hell of alot of work to get uber loot, and you felt prould to wear it. More games should use that game as a model instead of EQ. . .ugh! (EQ2 isn't bad, though. . .)

Off Topic: If Hero's Journey can be even a third as good as what it promises, it will blow everything else out there out of the f*#king water. :D

https://www.smashwords.com/profile/view/Bleakmage

  thePREdiger

Novice Member

Joined: 5/23/03
Posts: 152

10/12/06 2:19:00 AM#20
DAoC fixed the "looks the same feeling" with the ability to dye your armor pieces.
Although many wear the same armor (in terms of texture) they still were able to personalize their
char using their favourite colors on their armor parts/cloaks.

WoW is really bad when it comes to individuality - all chars look the same in their armor sets.
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