PvP in WoW is roughly the equivalent of the "red headed step-child".  

PvP was never really a concern for Blizzard.  PvE is the meat and potato's of the game.  It's proven over and over again.  Cross realms battlegrounds have ruined cooperation and teamwork.   Queues have become amazingly long on some servers and very short on others.   Battlegrounds are filled with AFK honor leeches that Blizzard seems to want to do nothing about.    The expansion has promised us 5-5 3-3 and 2-2 arena combat.......a far cry from the original AV and the slaughterfest that it delivered prior to Crossrealms. 

World PvP is a joke.   You PvP for 5 min (if in fact you encounter anyone who might try to stop you) and when you complete your little objective (take a tower, or gather some dust) you get a buff mainly set up for PvE raids.   Funny that both World PvP "battles" take place in some of the most highly trafficed areas in terms of raids.  

The honor system is beyond hope.  I acheived rank 10 on my server even at my measily 3-5 hours of playtime each day.   Anything past rank 10 would require me to quit my job, leave my wife and abandon my children. 

---

Originally posted by Kethrym

Anything past rank 10 would require me to quit my job, leave my wife and abandon my children. 

---

QFT

First of all, when discussing PvP, we should separate the minority who like the anarchy of totally open PvP, give them their own server like AC did with Darktide and then let the rest discuss what the rules should be. I don't know why those that want anarchy even play RPGs instead of FPS when they have little interest in RP.

While WoW PvP could have been much more meaningful, the way it has been implemented seems very artificial. What is contested in the 'contested zones'? You can't take over or control anything and there are no lasting consequences to any action. Sure you can raid a town and wipe out all the NPCs, but 30 minutes later they are all back again as though nothing has happened, so there is little motivation to defend your town unless you are strong enough to have a chance to survive. I know its too late to make any major changes to WoW PvP, but they should at least make killing a grey player as dishonerable kill unless they initiated the fight.

Of the dozens on online games that I've played, I think SWG had the best implementated (had, meaning before the redesign). The problem of ganking low levels was largely solved by allowing players to choose when they wanted to stop being neutral and pick a side. If you didn't like getting picked on as a low level, you could wait until you had advanced and felt strong enough. If you liked the risk of being a low level target, you could do that too.

In WoW, I think a great addition for the expansion would have been to add the goblins as a playable race with an emphasis on crafting and trading. They could be the neutrals in the game that could talk to both sides and safely visit both sides capital cities. A starting island between Ratchet and Booty Bay would fit right in.

I find the 'debate' a little restrained and lacking focus so I will simply address a pet peeve of mine...the notion that the little people cannot be effective fighters.

It must be peaceful having such a lack of imagination. Bigger=better

If a human can charge a giant or a dragon then surely a gnome can confront a larger, more clumsy Tauren (the David and Goliath story applies here). Within a fantasy setting the races are not simply small or large versions of a human base. If a gnome is as strong as a Tauren by some set scale then I imagine that the gnome is either composed of muscles like steel cable or fueled by some arcane energy.

The Jet Li version of an arena combatant if you will or perhaps, in this scenario, the relatively small matador versus a charging bull.

I suppose if it were a superhero game it would be easier for some although in this setting I suppose that the player characters are almost superheroes compared to the average population of their race.

Okay, okay I derailed and to make it even worse I responded to an obvious joke but I couldn't help myself.

---

Originally posted by dadown

First of all, when discussing PvP, we should separate the minority who like the anarchy of totally open PvP, give them their own server like AC did with Darktide and then let the rest discuss what the rules should be. I don't know why those that want anarchy even play RPGs instead of FPS when they have little interest in RP.

---

Because it's too difficult to grief on an FPS. With an actual "War" game the playing field is pretty even so even the guy who just started the same day and hasn't even learned all the controls will kill you if he gets the jump, you know, because having played 18 hours a day for 3 months doesn't make newbie bullets any less effective. That and the only real way to make yourself overpowered is to be skillful. I don't think anyone who's killing people 10 levels below them with a squad all day is looking for that kind of challenge.

The only way to prevent griefing is to restrict the levels you're able to attack. If you add penalties people will only make low level characters and continue trying to grief when they see a fight going on by running into AoE's or making people mistarget.

---

Originally posted by dadown

First of all, when discussing PvP, we should separate the minority who like the anarchy of totally open PvP, give them their own server like AC did with Darktide and then let the rest discuss what the rules should be. I don't know why those that want anarchy even play RPGs instead of FPS when they have little interest in RP.

---

ugh... this is the kind of low-forhead overgeneralizing that makes me wander why I even waste my time at this site...

player-1: Look, the default normal designed form of the game is PVE !!  You got dueling, classes, quests, crafting, even battlegrounds with "honor"... numerous servers to play on, have fun!  We want to have a server where we can fight each other...then we are happy, and you are happy... everyone is happy!! We don't necessarily want a lot of servers... just one. Let the market decide. If a lot of people want more pvp, then the game runner can fire up more pvp servers. If more pve servers are desired by the playing public, then they can fire up more of them. EVERYONE should get to play and have fun, fun being defined by what they say is fun... pve, pvp, whatever...

player-2: No way! If you want PVP, you should quite playing MMORPG games and play only FPS games where it is even and fair! PVP is inconsistent with role-playing; just go away. I don't really know WHY I want you to go away... I really don't know WHY I'm not just playing on PVE servers... I just don't like it that you enjoy fighting other players instead of just NPCs and MOBs like me... it's just not right I tell you. Maybe it has something to do with this large pole stuck my arse? Maybe I got dropped on my head when I was little and it never completely healed. In any case, we don't want you to pvp in a manner we don't approve of; so go away.

The anti-pvp arguements I have seen on these forums have got to be the most retarded things I've ever read. IF there was only pvp servers, THEN there would be a big major point.... but there are both pve and pvp servers available! I swear I must be living in crazyland...

For the nubcake carebears who claimed to be debating.......

please stay far away from Darkfall Online, kthxbye

---

Originally posted by airhead

---

Originally posted by dadown

First of all, when discussing PvP, we should separate the minority who like the anarchy of totally open PvP, give them their own server like AC did with Darktide and then let the rest discuss what the rules should be. I don't know why those that want anarchy even play RPGs instead of FPS when they have little interest in RP.

---

ugh... this is the kind of low-forhead overgeneralizing that makes me wander why I even waste my time at this site...

player-1: Look, the default normal designed form of the game is PVE !!  You got dueling, classes, quests, crafting, even battlegrounds with "honor"... numerous servers to play on, have fun!  We want to have a server where we can fight each other...then we are happy, and you are happy... everyone is happy!! We don't necessarily want a lot of servers... just one. Let the market decide. If a lot of people want more pvp, then the game runner can fire up more pvp servers. If more pve servers are desired by the playing public, then they can fire up more of them. EVERYONE should get to play and have fun, fun being defined by what they say is fun... pve, pvp, whatever...

player-2: No way! If you want PVP, you should quite playing MMORPG games and play only FPS games where it is even and fair! PVP is inconsistent with role-playing; just go away. I don't really know WHY I want you to go away... I really don't know WHY I'm not just playing on PVE servers... I just don't like it that you enjoy fighting other players instead of just NPCs and MOBs like me... it's just not right I tell you. Maybe it has something to do with this large pole stuck my arse? Maybe I got dropped on my head when I was little and it never completely healed. In any case, we don't want you to pvp in a manner we don't approve of; so go away.

The anti-pvp arguements I have seen on these forums have got to be the most retarded things I've ever read. IF there was only pvp servers, THEN there would be a big major point.... but there are both pve and pvp servers available! I swear I must be living in crazyland...

---

Haven't seen any anti-pvp arguments around here. Crazyland is a definite possibility.

The effects of world PvP in WoW?

There are none.

Combat is so well balanced that if you kill someone they will be back in 2 minutes undeterred and annoying you again while you are trying to level to 60 as quickly as possible. You cant not go into an area because you want to avoid conflict, becuase you have to go there to "level". Leveling is just bs time wasting. Your PvP actions have no effect on the world. Sure MAYBE if you kill the leader of the opposing side the server just gets reset. How boring.

Whats the point of playing a game PvE only, wow is as lame as it gets already. You forgot roleplaying servers btw.

The only thing carrying this game is the fanchise of warcraft. If every1 judged the game on its mechanics no one would play it. Its crap.

---

Originally posted by _Seeker

...

The only thing carrying this game is the fanchise of warcraft. If every1 judged the game on its mechanics no one would play it. Its crap.

---

Please tell me that you are kidding and that you don't really believe your rediculous statement.  I would be very suprised if more than 1% keep playing just because it is a warcraft franchise, I know it certainly is irrelevent for me whether it has the warcraft label on it.  People pay to play it because they have fun (and if they pay to play something they aren't enjoying, then they need counselling).  If you don't have fun playing it, that's fine too, as everyone has their own preferences.  Just don't claim that a game that over 50% of the people CHOOSE to play is crap, because if it really was, then it wouldn't be the most sucessful online game in world (which it is)!

LOL
  This is somewhat silly, reminds me of a debate for the sake of having a debate over a non-issue.  PVP is meaningless in WOW, (other than for the fun of a good fight).  One side cannot "control" territory over precious rescources, it doesnt affect the storyline, and you can't even loot the fallen.  I've never been huge on PVP (because mostly there is no point, and because it is almost always poorly done), yet I do enjoy a little PVP action occasionally for the adrenaline rush.  PVP battle is always the most challenging and thereby the most exciting kind of battle in a game environment.  However except for a few games, its almost never implemented well.  Anarchy Online gets props for sucessfully implenting PVP combat, that had meaning and never involved ganking.  Games that implement unlimited PVP are rarely very successful as the uncontrolled ganking drives away most potential new players.

Is PVP combat "ruining" WOW? Hardly, most of the servers are PVE!. 

As usual the wrong question is being asked. 

The real question is "How do you improve WOW PVP without ruining the game for everyone?"  Personally I wish every world had some contested zone's, with quests crucial to both sides within", I would focus on areas for characters level 30+. Theres something wrong when I go to searing gorge on my PVE server and the Horde and alliance flight points are like 100 feet apart.

Rigghawk

Ok. I read the original artcle again for the thrid time... forgive my last tirade; I didn't stay on point...

Joe: How do you folks out there feel about griefing and open PVP?

I have NEVER camped/griefed anyone in my entire mmo gaming life... but if I saw you in a game, I would camp and grief you till my dick fell off.  why?

Joe: Before anybody really gets into why I'm on a PvP server and not a PvE server, its simple why would I want to limit my options.

Because of 'reasoning' like that, (if you could call that reasoning). ... so you want to be FREE (not limited) to do what? have a few battles with humans in a virtual world? Why? (maybe because like everyone else you get a little bored clicking mines or killing respawnable mobs)? You never really said what you wanted to be free (not limited) to do...

So I have to guess from the other stuff you said about 'versus' that you want to be free to fight other humans as long as the fight is fair and equal? Of course every single swing is a random thing... a random chance to hit someone, a random chance they will not parry, block, or dodge, and if you hit them, then a random amount of damage. So suppose we could define 'fair' as being this: if two people fought each other 100 times, it would work out where each person won between 40-60 percent of the time? And I guess a 90-10 split would 'unfair'? And even given that, I suppose if multiple people are involved, that each side would need to have the same number of people? Then there is the whole level difference..... and mixed together is also a factor, because I remember winning with multiple lower-levels going against fewer higher levels and killing them all. And once such a 'fair' fight was defined, contrived, and actually occured... I suppose you want it to be repeatable, and yet everyone have the option to terminate the activity when they desired?

So to me it sounds like you want to be free to have ONLY fair fights (fair being a random win probability between 40-60 percent let's say), that groups will be even, and that it will not interfere with your sometimes short schedule of playtime.

And yet, such structured, even, and fair instances exist on PVE SERVERS!! They are called battlegrounds. Each side has the same number of people, level ranges are enforced, there is even a reason to do them, as you could grind out honor/faction. And if you don't have much time on any given night, you can go quest/grind money and NOT be bothered by other players. Given all that, you reject the implemention of everything you desire, to play on a pvp server, so you can be free to experience what? The things you don't like?

Sorry, but that's the kind of thinking that drives me batty... makes no sense whatsoever.

Debates between soft-pvpers and almost-PvE'ers aren't really debates I'm afraid.

Also, I don't think a pve'er rolling on a pvp server 'to keep their options open' is a valid reason. Clearly they should be on PvE. One of my biggest frustrations is PvE'ers who roll PvP then try to make the system more carebare to suit their own needs. Get a transfer or re-roll pve mate.

On PvP servers, a contested zone means what it says on the tin. One faction or the other will hold sway over certain areas and that's part of the fun. If it's too hot in one particular zone then move on. For instance, Stranglethorn Vale is always good for PvP but there are less contested areas where players can go to level up and bypass that zone completely.

Ganking is a pain, true, but I'm on my third level 60 now & I've never found it too much of a problem. Especially when there is no death penalty in pvp.

---

Originally posted by dadown

What is contested in the 'contested zones'? You can't take over or control anything and there are no lasting consequences to any action. Sure you can raid a town and wipe out all the NPCs, but 30 minutes later they are all back again as though nothing has happened, so there is little motivation to defend your town unless you are strong enough to have a chance to survive.

---

---

It's the zones themselves that are contested I think. Your faction dominates it so the other faction avoids it in high numbers giving you reletively peaceful questing and farming. Some zones are war zones where you always need to watch your back. That would be the defintion of contested I think. It more or less sums up what you are walking into when you cross the border.

I do agree that it should be more purposeful but I think we'll have to wait for Warhammer Online for that.

Joe Iuliani put it the best way I have heard it so far.

Why is WoW the center of every mmorpg topic? It doesn't qualify to be the center of attention it's a cartoony game for kids.

Ok to the point, PvP does NOT belong in any mmorpg period. Not only is it nuts when it's a level based game but the shear amount of people who use scripts and other forms of hacks and exploits only cause the real grief here. Ganking and all that no skill stuff are just that, no skill.

Why the children think they need PvP in these game types is beyond me. If you want to really have skill go play FPS online games where your skill on the keyboard and mouse determines your success. Yes some people use hacks in those games but not as much to the shear number of players who do in mmorpgs.

There's no skill or honor in killing other players in mmorpg's, FACT. What about the players who actually have lives outside of games i.e. full time jobs and real life responsibilties versus the losers who have 24/7 to max out their character then start griefing low level players. Where we only have so much time to play a game we are PAYING for to be griefed by immature morons.

Why 90 something percent of companies incorporate PvP into their online games is a very bad move which can cost them literally thousands of subscribers.

I have played almost every mmorpg and I have only seen 2 or a little more if that that got PvP right when their title first launched. So far most mmorpg's out there have totally screwed up PvP mechanics completely.

---

Originally posted by DeathWolf2u

Joe Iuliani put it the best way I have heard it so far.

Why is WoW the center of every mmorpg topic? It doesn't qualify to be the center of attention it's a cartoony game for kids.

Ok to the point, PvP does NOT belong in any mmorpg period. Not only is it nuts when it's a level based game but the shear amount of people who use scripts and other forms of hacks and exploits only cause the real grief here. Ganking and all that no skill stuff are just that, no skill.

Why the children think they need PvP in these game types is beyond me. If you want to really have skill go play FPS online games where your skill on the keyboard and mouse determines your success. Yes some people use hacks in those games but not as much to the shear number of players who do in mmorpgs.

There's no skill or honor in killing other players in mmorpg's, FACT. What about the players who actually have lives outside of games i.e. full time jobs and real life responsibilties versus the losers who have 24/7 to max out their character then start griefing low level players. Where we only have so much time to play a game we are PAYING for to be griefed by immature morons.

Why 90 something percent of companies incorporate PvP into their online games is a very bad move which can cost them literally thousands of subscribers.

I have played almost every mmorpg and I have only seen 2 or a little more if that that got PvP right when their title first launched. So far most mmorpg's out there have totally screwed up PvP mechanics completely.

---

unbelieveable....

1. SKILL is irrelevant. It's not about 'winning or loosing', it's about having some degree of UNPREDICTABILITY, some degree of dynamism to an otherwise boring repetitive game. You are obviously replying to some taunt made by a kid who pwnd you are whatever... just say it with me... "kids will be kids...I really don't care... this is only a game".

2. I need PVP and I'm not "children"... got 3 children myself... that play MMOs. "attack the man" technique is of course irrelevent. I have a life, job, wife, kids, business, and I want pvp in an mmo. When I want to feel 'skilled' I play fps... sure. I want pvp in an mmo because I'm not rainman.

3. IF a game provides PVE servers (as does WoW, eq2, etc), then complaints about GRIEFING are irrelevent. You can play on PVE servers and have EVERYTHING you desire... why do you care whether pvp servers exist at all? Then to even hint that you would quit a game ("loosing literally thousands of subscribers") because pvp exists, when you could of course play on a pve server, is absolutely insane.

4. most MMOs have screwed up pvp mechanics completely. Well, I might agree with that statement... you have a point there perhaps. There is of course a sure fire way to answer that. Create multiple servers, each with some slightly altered pvp mechanic. Then let the people/customers decide. For that matter, they are deciding between pve and pvp servers right now, by the fact that both exist, and the customers go to one or the other. I don't know the exact breakdown, but I suspect there are more pve players in wow. But I don't think it's 90-10 or anything... a little closer to 50-50 maybe. So if either of those categories are "too broad", then companies should have various alterations of the game mechanics and see how server populations evolve.

But then again, all this is assuming that the SOLUTION to the existing broken mechanics you claim to exist are actually defineable, reasonable, and can be implemented. You didn't say what was broken, and then you didn't say how it could be fixed... so who knows.

Let's face it, PVP (outside of battlegrounds) in WOW is just lame and pointless.  There is no purpose to it, other than to waste another player's time.  What percentage of the time do players engage in fair PVP fights?  5%?  Less?  And what benefit is there to PVP?  None.  There is no loss for dying, so you don't get the victim's stuff.  Granted, there is some small thrill you get when escaping a higher level attacker and some small satisfaction derived from ganking some poor fool trying to kill pigs or whatever, but that's really about it.  PVP exists solely to waste people's time.  I honestly don't understand why they even have PVP servers.  Just let players PVP in the battlegrounds.  I understand that some other MMO's have meaningful PVP and that's great, but WOW is not one of them.

---

Originally posted by Garfunkel

Debates between soft-pvpers and almost-PvE'ers aren't really debates I'm afraid.

Also, I don't think a pve'er rolling on a pvp server 'to keep their options open' is a valid reason. Clearly they should be on PvE. One of my biggest frustrations is PvE'ers who roll PvP then try to make the system more carebare to suit their own needs. Get a transfer or re-roll pve mate.

On PvP servers, a contested zone means what it says on the tin. One faction or the other will hold sway over certain areas and that's part of the fun. If it's too hot in one particular zone then move on. For instance, Stranglethorn Vale is always good for PvP but there are less contested areas where players can go to level up and bypass that zone completely.

Ganking is a pain, true, but I'm on my third level 60 now & I've never found it too much of a problem. Especially when there is no death penalty in pvp.

---

Unless there's something I need to do there i'll kill anyone in the area that cons to me, because picking fights with everybody in a no foul system just makes things more difficult for me. He'll be back a minute later and pissed off, now I need to leave with nothing accomplished to avoid the bind rush and the inevitable call for help. I don't join groups unless there's another group following me around and pissing everyone off. Mostly because it makes things boring and unchallenging, and there's still no point. Why do I need 5 other people to help kill anyone? And I don't kil greys because there's no point. I get nothing out of it but wasted time and they just come right back. Am I a soft PvPer? I think that's just common sense and decency. I think everyone should have it, but since it's not possible I think it's up to the developers to even things out. They should at least protect the newbie population and the up and comers. I think it makes for a much healthier base when people aren't being griefed into quitting before they ever get started.

Background:  42 year old professional, WoW is my 28th MMO (19 of which were alpha/betas), multiple 60's on PvE and PvP realms, yadda yadda yadda.

I am not a PvP player.  I never have been, never will be, it is not my style.  That said, I do understand it, have done it, and know the score.  I play on a PvP server because IRL friends play there.  I have never been griefed, though I have been ganked, and that's just part of the experience.

Killing someone on a PvP server is not griefing, no matter how you slice it.  The Horde and Alliance are at war, they are out to kill each other, it's canon.  If you are in a contested zone and allow your health to get low, you deserve to die.  If you are not paying attention and you get ganked by a rogue, you deserve to die.  If you tape $100 bills all over your body and go walking through some high-crime neighborhood at 2am, you deserve to die.

If you don't want non-consensual PvP, then play on a PvE server and have the "best" elements of PvP in the battlegrounds.  On a PvE server, if you don't want to PvP, you don't.  If you do, you /pvp and you are.  You are 100% in control of your experience on a carebear server.  I know, I did it.

If you make a toon on a PvP server, you are told when you auto-flag, and if you aren't paying attention, then you get to die.  You assume you will be ganked at every moment, and act accordingly...that is the PvP experience, not just in WoW, but any MMO that allows non-consensual PvP.  It's not griefing, it's called tactics.  If the OP feels that the only real PvP is when Ally player A walks up to Horde player B, ensures they are of the proper level, gets their attention, slaps them in the face with a gauntlet, then awaits their reply, they are SERIOUSLY detached from reality.

You go AFK on a PvP server in a contested zone, you are going to die, guaranteed.  You get in over your head and overpull some mobs, you are going to get ganked.  These are facts of life on a PvP server, and not even remotely griefing.

The OP needs to transfer to a PvE server and stop being so sensitive.  People who bash PvP in general simply don't understand it and are showing their intolerance of things they don't understand.  Folks enjoy it, obviously, so condemning it won't make it go away or less popular, nor will Blizzard suddenly close all the PvP servers because a handful of forum campers disapprove :)

Woot, finally I find someone else who thinks the way I do. So, how about this for a debate:

Would an MMORPG game work if it didn't have levels?

No matter how high you set the level cap, people will reach that level, so what will they do when they reach that cap? If you cant keep them interested at this point, then people will max out and get bored. If you can keep them interested at this point, they why force people to go through all the leveling in order to get to and see this content that had created for max-levels? If you dont have levels at all, then you only have to balance classes for one level (instead of making them balanced 50 times over - once for each level), and new players can play with vetrans, friends can play with friends. Forming guilds would be easier, raids would be easier, and everyone who plays the game can feel like they can contribute. Also, levels cause economy problems (if you make higher level creatures drop more/better loot then you have twinking, etc)