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News & Features Discussion  » General: AGC: Breakfast with SOE

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  Dana

Novice Member

Joined: 1/07/04
Posts: 2425

 
OP  9/13/06 1:12:37 PM#1

Carolyn Koh and Dana Massey met with four reps from SOE for breakfast on Thursday at AGC. Director of Corporate Communications Chris Kramer, EQII Community Manager Ryan Schwayder, Director of Community Relations Alan Crosby and SWG Event Manager Jason Ryan all chimed in as we discussed Star Wars Galaxies, EverQuest I, II and Online Adventures, The Matrix Online, Planetside, SOE Seattle, the DC Comics MMORPG and even Tanarus.

On Thursday morning of the AGC in Austin, Dana Massey and I met up with the Sony Online Entertainment folks and had a breakfast meeting at the local IHOP.

Amidst jokes about partying too hard the night before and who ordered the Rutti Tutti Fresh ‘n Fruity breakfast, we got in a round of questions about their core games. Dana and I agreed that we would start off with what was still the most controversial move in MMOG history, the Star Wars Galaxies NGE.

“In late winter through early spring, SWG was one of SOE's biggest gainers in terms of new players to a live game, coming through both the trials and through new software purchases,” said Chris Kramer, Director of Corporate Communications.

The whole article is available here.

Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios

  Dracis

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/06
Posts: 433

"Ideas are bulletproof"

9/13/06 1:44:54 PM#2

What a load on SWG. They still can't get one solid story straight on what happened with the NGE. They say they made mistakes, but it was the biggest gain of new players to a live game?

What a load of BS.

I like alot of the articles here on MMORPG.com, alot of them are good, but when it comes to SWG, you guys are always lacking an serious and hard core critizism.

Your reporters should not be afraid to ask the tough questions about it. They told everyone when the NGE came to be it would take 6 months to get everything in place. It's nearly a year now and it's still no where near complete. They lie right to your face and you smile and take it in stride.

That is a huge mistake on your part.

  Dana

Novice Member

Joined: 1/07/04
Posts: 2425

 
OP  9/13/06 1:47:58 PM#3

Originally posted by Dracis

What a load on SWG. They still can't get one solid story straight on what happened with the NGE. They say they made mistakes, but it was the biggest gain of new players to a live game?

What a load of BS.

I like alot of the articles here on MMORPG.com, alot of them are good, but when it comes to SWG, you guys are always lacking an serious and hard core critizism.

Your reporters should not be afraid to ask the tough questions about it. They told everyone when the NGE came to be it would take 6 months to get everything in place. It's nearly a year now and it's still no where near complete. They lie right to your face and you smile and take it in stride.

That is a huge mistake on your part.


Actually, we discussed this at some length and he even triple checked the numbers for us. What else can we do? Just proclaim it a lie with no proof? If you do not believe them, that's totally your choice, we're just telling you what they said.

Unfotunately, at this time, there is no way to indepedently varify statements like that with any degree of accuracy. All we can do is report back what they tell us.

Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios

  User Deleted
9/13/06 1:57:50 PM#4

Originally posted by Lepidus

Originally posted by Dracis

What a load on SWG. They still can't get one solid story straight on what happened with the NGE. They say they made mistakes, but it was the biggest gain of new players to a live game?

What a load of BS.

I like alot of the articles here on MMORPG.com, alot of them are good, but when it comes to SWG, you guys are always lacking an serious and hard core critizism.

Your reporters should not be afraid to ask the tough questions about it. They told everyone when the NGE came to be it would take 6 months to get everything in place. It's nearly a year now and it's still no where near complete. They lie right to your face and you smile and take it in stride.

That is a huge mistake on your part.


Actually, we discussed this at some length and he even triple checked the numbers for us. What else can we do? Just proclaim it a lie with no proof? If you do not believe them, that's totally your choice, we're just telling you what they said.

Unfotunately, at this time, there is no way to indepedently varify statements like that with any degree of accuracy. All we can do is report back what they tell us.

Yes, but you are enabling the spin. So, with no checks in place they can continue to spin spin spin.

I thought this was a news site..... I thought it was the duty of journalistic site to be a check for governments and companies. Seems mmorpg has gone the way of the useless news we get not (CNN,NBC, FOX).

And after that great article from your staff at the AGC talking about 3ed party media sites.

"trials and through new software purchases"

The trials are free, and they have repackaged the game about 3 times each time offering a one time item or vehicle only available buy buying it.

Why is it so hard to call them on this?

  Dana

Novice Member

Joined: 1/07/04
Posts: 2425

 
OP  9/13/06 2:09:35 PM#5


Yes, but you are enabling the spin. So, with no checks in place they can continue to spin spin spin.

I thought this was a news site..... I thought it was the duty of journalistic site to be a check for governments and companies. Seems mmorpg has gone the way of the useless news we get not (CNN,NBC, FOX).

And after that great article from your staff at the AGC talking about 3ed party media sites.

"trials and through new software purchases"

The trials are free, and they have repackaged the game about 3 times each time offering a one time item or vehicle only available buy buying it.

Why is it so hard to call them on this?


As I said, we didn't just grin and jot it down. The claim struck me as potentially controversial. I spoke to Chris on two occasions after breakfast to ensure that he had not simply misspoke.

Eventually, we have an equal duty to report what they say and we cannot just change what comes out of their mouths.

This was an issue I spoke of a bit at the Third Party panel and a problem with this industry as a whole. Ultimately, the only way for us to truly third party verify his claims is to get an inside source at SOE willing to tell us their subscriber numbers. At a certain stage, this is entertainment journalism and not national security. You cannot expect people to risk their jobs for things like that.

Even then though, short of being escorted into a room with the computer, that person could be lying to us.

Short and simple,with SOEs myriad of offers, station pass and games, it is impossible to glean even from their public financial statements how many people play what. Thus, we can only ask them these questions and report back what they say.

It is up to you the reader to decide whether or not you believe them.

Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios

  chlaos

Novice Member

Joined: 11/11/05
Posts: 1120

9/13/06 2:20:13 PM#6

While as a matter of personal opinion I find their statements about SWG to be patently absurd, I dont really see what else the MMORPG.com staffers could have done but ask them.   SOE has shown absolutely no remorse about flat out lying to anyone, be they customer or press, so this should be no great revelation. 

Dana, I would like to ask you though as a person with greater knowledge of the inner workings of these games and those that run them, for a more personal opinion of their remarks.  Strictly as a matter of opinion, do you see them as being honest, manipulating numbers via station pass, flat out lying, being in complete and utter denial and delusion?  

The vast majority of people retrying the game and keeping up with their forums bring back reports in stark contrast to the statements they made, in fact other statements from people within the company contradict these.  Clearly something smells bad here, of course short of hacking into their files their is no way of knowing what it is.....

TIA         

"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin

  User Deleted
9/13/06 2:35:14 PM#7

While I do enjoy reading the other games (EQ2 and EQ) I did find the comments concerning SWG to be "fabricated"

I believe that's what they told you and had "documents, etc" to back it up. The quote such as “In late winter through early spring, SWG was one of SOE's biggest gainers in terms of new players to a live game, coming through both the trials and through new software purchases,” said Chris Kramer, Director of Corporate Communications  sounds fishy at best. Maybe late winter through early spring 2003-2004 but not 2005-2006. I personally was there and the servers were completely empty saved for a few sparse groups at various spaceports.

Concerning the comment on the praises on the forums, I do not believe that as well.  Non-offical SWG forums may have had a good response to the NGE and new updates, but the official SWG forum is still occupied by concerned comments and questions.

If the devs were talking about how they no longer lock 3,891 threads an hour and have to call in MODs from EQ2 forums to help police (as they did for 6 months straight after the NGE), then I would have to agree that the forums have gotten better.

Nice info, but the SWG comments was reminiscient of Hitler's Gestapo of a Victorious World War 2 as the Allies were marching over the Rhiene River

Again, I believe this is what SWG DEVs told mmorpg.com and I believe mmorpg.com had listened and heard these replies, but the SWG DEVs was just ...well....blowing spent carbon particles up our digestive orafices.

  User Deleted
9/13/06 2:36:46 PM#8

Originally posted by Lepidus


Yes, but you are enabling the spin. So, with no checks in place they can continue to spin spin spin.

I thought this was a news site..... I thought it was the duty of journalistic site to be a check for governments and companies. Seems mmorpg has gone the way of the useless news we get not (CNN,NBC, FOX).

And after that great article from your staff at the AGC talking about 3ed party media sites.

"trials and through new software purchases"

The trials are free, and they have repackaged the game about 3 times each time offering a one time item or vehicle only available buy buying it.

Why is it so hard to call them on this?


As I said, we didn't just grin and jot it down. The claim struck me as potentially controversial. I spoke to Chris on two occasions after breakfast to ensure that he had not simply misspoke.

Eventually, we have an equal duty to report what they say and we cannot just change what comes out of their mouths.

This was an issue I spoke of a bit at the Third Party panel and a problem with this industry as a whole. Ultimately, the only way for us to truly third party verify his claims is to get an inside source at SOE willing to tell us their subscriber numbers. At a certain stage, this is entertainment journalism and not national security. You cannot expect people to risk their jobs for things like that.

Even then though, short of being escorted into a room with the computer, that person could be lying to us.

Short and simple,with SOEs myriad of offers, station pass and games, it is impossible to glean even from their public financial statements how many people play what. Thus, we can only ask them these questions and report back what they say.

It is up to you the reader to decide whether or not you believe them.

Im sure that it was true. As like i said, they said Trials and New software. The trials are free, and they have made three or so versions of the "software" each time with one time deal items (speeder, and now a walker) that you can only get threw buying it.... so yeah... Using those numbers im sure it was an increase to SALES, not subscriptions.. because the majority of those sales are people seeing something they think is new on the shelves...and current player buying the new box set for the in game item worth millions of credits.

But, so your saying that by asking the real questions...like the ones im sure your not in short supply off (read your forums) that you will loose your jobs?

Lets see.... Real questions asked = more people to mmorpg.com because of increased trust in the public eye , that in turn means = You loose your job.

Ok.

So, never asking the questions your readers care about or calling people on in discrepancies and just rehashing what they "Said" = The pubic eye of your readers gets pinkeye and no one trusts your reviews, interviews or ratings, that in turn means = you keep your job.

What does anyone at SOE or any other game maker have to do with your jobs, quite frankly, we pay for your jobs (just like the real news), with out us, noone would want to advertise with you.

your the leading MMO portal anywhere, your advertising is separated from your journalism.. (so you say)

I don’t understand.

Its your site i guess.


This isnt the only case eather... Its not just about SWG....

Infact some of your AGC articles read like some of the gamespot or F1 articles.



  User Deleted
9/13/06 2:38:45 PM#9

Originally posted by Enigma

While I do enjoy reading the other games (EQ2 and EQ) I did find the comments concerning SWG to be "fabricated"

I believe that's what they told you and had "documents, etc" to back it up. The quote such as “In late winter through early spring, SWG was one of SOE's biggest gainers in terms of new players to a live game, coming through both the trials and through new software purchases,” said Chris Kramer, Director of Corporate Communications  sounds fishy at best. Maybe late winter through early spring 2003-2004 but not 2005-2006. I personally was there and the servers were completely empty saved for a few sparse groups at various spaceports.

Concerning the comment on the praises on the forums, I do not believe that as well.  Non-offical SWG forums may have had a good response to the NGE and new updates, but the official SWG forum is still occupied by concerned comments and questions.

If the devs were talking about how they no longer lock 3,891 threads an hour and have to call in MODs from EQ2 forums to help police (as they did for 6 months straight after the NGE), then I would have to agree that the forums have gotten better.

Nice info, but the SWG comments was reminiscient of Hitler's Gestapo of a Victorious World War 2 as the Allies were marching over the Rhiene River

Again, I believe this is what SWG DEVs told mmorpg.com and I believe mmorpg.com had listened and heard these replies, but the SWG DEVs was just ...well....blowing spent carbon particles up our digestive orafices.


No, they are not.. all concerns and criticism is deleted on the official site.

  Dana

Novice Member

Joined: 1/07/04
Posts: 2425

 
OP  9/13/06 2:46:43 PM#10

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

O



But, so your saying that by asking the real questions...like the ones im sure your not in short supply off (read your forums) that you will loose your jobs?

Lets see.... Real questions asked = more people to mmorpg.com because of increased trust in the public eye , that in turn means = You loose your job.




You misunderstood the "losing job" comment. My point was, I cannot expect someone at SOE to risk THEIR job to tell us subscriber numbers. My job would be fine, but they'd have to violate their employee agreement to share that information with me. You get those kind of leaks in political stories because ultimately, what they're leaking is important to the world good. No one is going to risk losing the ability to support their family to tell me how many people are logged into SWG.

If you can think of any other way to independently verify or disprove subscriber claims from a big company, I'm all for it.

Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios

  User Deleted
9/13/06 2:47:05 PM#11

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Originally posted by Enigma

While I do enjoy reading the other games (EQ2 and EQ) I did find the comments concerning SWG to be "fabricated"

I believe that's what they told you and had "documents, etc" to back it up. The quote such as “In late winter through early spring, SWG was one of SOE's biggest gainers in terms of new players to a live game, coming through both the trials and through new software purchases,” said Chris Kramer, Director of Corporate Communications  sounds fishy at best. Maybe late winter through early spring 2003-2004 but not 2005-2006. I personally was there and the servers were completely empty saved for a few sparse groups at various spaceports.

Concerning the comment on the praises on the forums, I do not believe that as well.  Non-offical SWG forums may have had a good response to the NGE and new updates, but the official SWG forum is still occupied by concerned comments and questions.

If the devs were talking about how they no longer lock 3,891 threads an hour and have to call in MODs from EQ2 forums to help police (as they did for 6 months straight after the NGE), then I would have to agree that the forums have gotten better.

Nice info, but the SWG comments was reminiscient of Hitler's Gestapo of a Victorious World War 2 as the Allies were marching over the Rhiene River

Again, I believe this is what SWG DEVs told mmorpg.com and I believe mmorpg.com had listened and heard these replies, but the SWG DEVs was just ...well....blowing spent carbon particles up our digestive orafices.


No, they are not.. all concerns and criticism is deleted on the official site.



You may want to reread that. That's what Im saying lol
  hulons1

Novice Member

Joined: 12/09/03
Posts: 75

9/13/06 2:47:17 PM#12

You can play with numbers when you don't actually give any numbers. They said one of their biggest gainers.  That's it. They didn't say which games gained, which lost, how much of a gain. What makes a one of

Just one of our biggest gainers. Means nothing.

  User Deleted
9/13/06 2:49:01 PM#13

Originally posted by Enigma
You may want to reread that. That's what Im saying lol



*hides*

My mistake. lol.
  User Deleted
9/13/06 2:50:19 PM#14
Oh My , I have never seen such an MMORPG staff active news thread , SOE what is the real agenda here . $$$$????
  User Deleted
9/13/06 2:54:20 PM#15

Originally posted by Lepidus

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

O



But, so your saying that by asking the real questions...like the ones im sure your not in short supply off (read your forums) that you will loose your jobs?

Lets see.... Real questions asked = more people to mmorpg.com because of increased trust in the public eye , that in turn means = You loose your job.




You misunderstood the "losing job" comment. My point was, I cannot expect someone at SOE to risk THEIR job to tell us subscriber numbers. My job would be fine, but they'd have to violate their employee agreement to share that information with me. You get those kind of leaks in political stories because ultimately, what they're leaking is important to the world good. No one is going to risk losing the ability to support their wife and kids to tell me how many people are logged into SWG.

If you can think of any other way to independently verify or disprove subscriber claims from a big company, I'm all for it.

Sure, call them on it, and include that in your report... What every they answer..atlest we know you tryed to get them to answer the questions people that read your site are wanting to know, and it was THEY who refused to do so, not that YOU would not ask.

I mean come on... you'll rip DnL a new one... but not any of the big boys?

(not trying to turn this into a DnL things...but you get the point)


  Dana

Novice Member

Joined: 1/07/04
Posts: 2425

 
OP  9/13/06 2:59:32 PM#16

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Originally posted by Lepidus

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

O



But, so your saying that by asking the real questions...like the ones im sure your not in short supply off (read your forums) that you will loose your jobs?

Lets see.... Real questions asked = more people to mmorpg.com because of increased trust in the public eye , that in turn means = You loose your job.




You misunderstood the "losing job" comment. My point was, I cannot expect someone at SOE to risk THEIR job to tell us subscriber numbers. My job would be fine, but they'd have to violate their employee agreement to share that information with me. You get those kind of leaks in political stories because ultimately, what they're leaking is important to the world good. No one is going to risk losing the ability to support their wife and kids to tell me how many people are logged into SWG.

If you can think of any other way to independently verify or disprove subscriber claims from a big company, I'm all for it.

Sure, call them on it, and include that in your report... What every they answer..atlest we know you tryed to get them to answer the questions people that read your site are wanting to know, and it was THEY who refused to do so, not that YOU would not ask.

I mean come on... you'll rip DnL a new one... but not any of the big boys?

(not trying to turn this into a DnL things...but you get the point)



You cannot just run around calling people liars with no proof, it's unprofessional. You may not believe them, but really, what he said is not out of the realm of possibility. His quote has a pretty limited scope to it and is probably factual. If he'd said "SWG has 5,000,000 subscribers", we may have felt the need to pad that quote with some commentary.

I think we've been quite fair with regards to the NGE. For example, a few days after it came out, I wrote this editorial: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/setview/features/loadFeature/325/gameID/6

Unfortunately, it's a year later and no matter what we do with SOE, we cannot do right in some people's eyes short of yelling at them and calling them names. We try to be balanced, but what many seem to think we should be doing is not that at all.

Also, the reason we hit some smaller games harder than some bigger games is less nefarious than you'd think. Simply, big companies have the money and talent to make decent games. They rarely make an absolute pile of unplayable code. The same is not always true of small start-ups. The problem is, with hype and attention comes expectations and when those are not met, people feel as if the product is worse than it truly is. This is the same mental trick that causes people to invariably list some of the generally accepted "best movies of all time" on their list of "worst movies of all time". Clearly, there are worse movies, but if you are let down or hurt by something that you expected so much of, it becomes infitely worse then if you just didn't care or had no expectations.

Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios

  Reachwind

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/21/06
Posts: 279

Yeah, what they said.

9/13/06 3:09:16 PM#17

Originally posted by Lepidus
“In late winter through early spring, SWG was one of SOE's biggest gainers in terms of new players to a live game, coming through both the trials and through new software purchases,” said Chris Kramer, Director of Corporate Communications.

The follow up questions I would have asked would be;

So then you have more subscribers now than you did prior to 11/15/2005?

How do the subscriber numbers now compare with the numbers from 2004?

Are there more concurrent users playing the game now compared to 2004 or 2005?

Former SWG beta tester and player

  MX13

Novice Member

Joined: 12/01/05
Posts: 2487

What in HELL is an Aluminum Falcon?!?!?!

9/13/06 3:09:43 PM#18

Originally posted by Lepidus

Originally posted by Dracis

What a load on SWG. They still can't get one solid story straight on what happened with the NGE. They say they made mistakes, but it was the biggest gain of new players to a live game?

What a load of BS.

I like alot of the articles here on MMORPG.com, alot of them are good, but when it comes to SWG, you guys are always lacking an serious and hard core critizism.

Your reporters should not be afraid to ask the tough questions about it. They told everyone when the NGE came to be it would take 6 months to get everything in place. It's nearly a year now and it's still no where near complete. They lie right to your face and you smile and take it in stride.

That is a huge mistake on your part.


Actually, we discussed this at some length and he even triple checked the numbers for us. What else can we do? Just proclaim it a lie with no proof? If you do not believe them, that's totally your choice, we're just telling you what they said.

Unfotunately, at this time, there is no way to indepedently varify statements like that with any degree of accuracy. All we can do is report back what they tell us.

But what does it mean? What's the context? Was this by actual comparative numbers or percentage? How many players left compared to joining during this time? Did SWG gain more new players than all other SOE MMO's for that short period only? Well, that's not surprise, but did they STAY? As a player at that time on 4 servers I can say they didn't, and subs are actually down to the lowest point I've seen them.

I would challenge you to this: Where is the followup question about the context? If you don't ask, all you're doing is enabling spin. And on top of that, if they won't share their numbers, what right do they have to use them to promote?

You're enabling spin, and as an independant source on MMO's, and a respected one I might add, that is truely sad. I understand that you want to discuss their games, but it's not out of line to ask for proof, supporting REAL information that you can verify or tell them that you won't include spin without supoorting materials.

I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!

In fact, forget the SWG!!!!



  User Deleted
9/13/06 3:13:09 PM#19

Originally posted by Lepidus

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Originally posted by Lepidus

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

O



But, so your saying that by asking the real questions...like the ones im sure your not in short supply off (read your forums) that you will loose your jobs?

Lets see.... Real questions asked = more people to mmorpg.com because of increased trust in the public eye , that in turn means = You loose your job.




You misunderstood the "losing job" comment. My point was, I cannot expect someone at SOE to risk THEIR job to tell us subscriber numbers. My job would be fine, but they'd have to violate their employee agreement to share that information with me. You get those kind of leaks in political stories because ultimately, what they're leaking is important to the world good. No one is going to risk losing the ability to support their wife and kids to tell me how many people are logged into SWG.

If you can think of any other way to independently verify or disprove subscriber claims from a big company, I'm all for it.

Sure, call them on it, and include that in your report... What every they answer..atlest we know you tryed to get them to answer the questions people that read your site are wanting to know, and it was THEY who refused to do so, not that YOU would not ask.

I mean come on... you'll rip DnL a new one... but not any of the big boys?

(not trying to turn this into a DnL things...but you get the point)



You cannot just run around calling people liars with no proof, it's unprofessional. You may not believe them, but really, what he said is not out of the realm of possibility. His quote has a pretty limited scope to it and is probably factual. If he'd said "SWG has 5,000,000 subscribers", we may have felt the need to pad that quote with some commentary.

I think we've been quite fair with regards to the NGE. For example, a few days after it came out, I wrote this editorial: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/setview/features/loadFeature/325/gameID/6

Unfortunately, it's a year later and no matter what we do with SOE, we cannot do right in some people's eyes short of yelling at them and calling them names. We try to be balanced, but what many seem to think we should be doing is not that at all.

Also, the reason we hit some smaller games harder than some bigger games is less nefarious than you'd think. Simply, big companies have the money and talent to make decent games. They rarely make an absolute pile of unplayable code. The same is not always true of small start-ups. The problem is, with hype and attention comes expectations and when those are not met, people feel as if the product is worse than it truly is. This is the same mental trick that causes people to invariably list some of the generally accepted "best movies of all time" on their list of "worst movies of all time". Clearly, there are worse movies, but if you are let down or hurt by something that you expected so much of, it becomes infitely worse then if you just didn't care or had no expectations.

No one said call them liars or be unprofessional.

The poster above has some good follow up questions.... That you readers wish to know... Answered by them or not, they should have been asked.

I only want your "balanced" questions, and i do not think that the questions we want are so bad or falls into the catagory of "yelling at them and calling them names".
  MX13

Novice Member

Joined: 12/01/05
Posts: 2487

What in HELL is an Aluminum Falcon?!?!?!

9/13/06 3:15:37 PM#20

“In late winter through early spring, SWG was one of SOE's biggest gainers in terms of new players to a live game, coming through both the trials and through new software purchases,” said Chris Kramer, Director of Corporate Communications.

“We’ve had great responses from the players. The last two patches were player initiated bug fixes and lingering issues. The Expertise system is going in and has been well received,” added Jason Ryan, the Events Manager for SWG.

“Players have been very upbeat on the forums and the questions are mostly about the future and what the game is about moving forward,” added Alan Crosby, Director of Community Relations.

Thank you for enabling SOE to spin until they fall down. I can't believe that a site that prides itself on being for-the-gamer wouldn't challenge such obvious spin, spin that's harmed their users... just sad.

I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!

In fact, forget the SWG!!!!



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