Vanguard: Saga of Heroes

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Originally posted by Lendal1

 Sigil is making a 'normal' game for the masses.

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You are completely wrong.
Brad is trying to convince people otherwise, but the truth is that the average player won't even play Beta, because they don't understand the game, let alone PAY to play the game.

Sigil is making a game who appeals people with more time and/or patience, something which the masses are quite short of.

Now, if the game does't perform well at launch, you will see SOE taking over, and you will see the "commercial" trasformation we saw in EQ, EQ2 and SWG.

If everything goes well, Vanguard could reach a player base of EQ and EQ2 combined, which is not bad.
So let s hope for Sigil that the "niche" who is gonna play Vanguard is big enough (and I think it is), but let's not fool ourselves; Vanguard is not a game for everyone.

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originally posted byAradune Mithara 12:40am 06/30/2006

Thanks for the quotes. I did some searching and have saved this off now so I can answer again as I'm sure this will rightfully continue to pop up as more and more people come to find out more about Vanguard:

Will the best loot come only from raids?

Aradune Mithara: No. Many of them will, but many will also be available to groups. Often the very best items will require a long time commitment, but these commitments shouldn't have to always be contiguous. In other words, say it requires 12 hours of adventuring to obtain a powerful item. In some extreme cases, this could require a raid, or even a group and it could take you all day to complete. In other cases, however, the 12 hours can be broken up into three 4 hour chunks, where the quest or encounter route for the item is broken up into fourths, such that after you achieve 1/4 of the quest or route, you can save, re-group the next day, and then finish up another 3 hour chunk.

I've posted quite a bit on this months ago and encourage your and anyone interested to dig up the posts (some have been re-posted in this thread already -- thanks guys). In a nutshell, we want the best items to be available though a variety of routes: raids, long contiguous adventures, broken up adventures, trade skills, diplomacy, etc. The only potentially controversial aspect of this is that is likely that not ALL of the best items you might want will be available through only one of these methods. If you are a person who wants ALL of the best stuff, you'll have to involve yourself in all of the above, including raiding and long contiguous adventures, even though the majority of content, including that which yields great rewards, will be group oriented.

Essentially, if you want it all (whether items or abilities or spells or whatever), you pretty much have to DO it all as well. I do stress, however, that to be a powerful and effective player, you don't have to do it all. What I'm talking about is the subset of players who, from a personal preference, decide they have to have all of the best gear of every type, for every situation, etc.

So, and hopefully more to your point, if you focus on the casual content in the game, you will find/buy items that make you better, and as you level up, acquire wealth, skills, etc. you will find better equipment, and should feel a sense of accomplishment.

But that equipment most likely wouldn't cut it in a grouping region, and most certainly not in a raid area. Those mobs are harder, more situational, and don't just require more attention when playing (making sure you counter that spell, etc.), but also require that you have items that are at least close to the level range of the group dungeon you are in.

It can't really be any other way. If you want to only be casual, you will progress, but as I've said in the past, you won't have the same stuff as the guy who groups, or who raids. Same with the other spheres and how much time you invest.

All that said, and here's where I risk some wrath, the most powerful items will likely require skill, challenge, risk, and contiguous time commitments involving a lot of people. The reason is that by putting all of those challenges together, you get a bigger challenge. The additional commitment to stay on those extra hours, the organizational skills necessary to lead and organize a large group of people, etc. There's still something to be said about all of that, even though it will be the minority of content, as per what I've commented on in the past.

That’s not clear and seems contradictory: please elaborate:

Aradune Mithara: What's key here is that the best items should come from experiences where there was the greatest risk vs. reward and time commitment (plus, there's always luck -- being in the right place at the right time, etc.).

Some of the best items will come from conventional raiding (large groups of people participating in long contiguous adventures). Some will come from long adventures consisting of less people and more importantly, while a lot of time will have to be invested, the content will be such that all of that time doesn't have to be contiguous.

Some also will come from the other spheres, but much of the same applies: the best components harvested and then used later to craft the best items will be very rare and in very dangerous locations. Some of it may require long contiguous time commitments, while others will be obtainable by completing several shorter contiguous adventures.

So I guess I'm still not totally sure what exactly you are asking here....

Will you be able to collect ALL of the best gear in the game without going on conventional raids and/or without trading/buying gear obtained from conventional raids? No.

Will you be able to obtain some of the very best gear without participating in conventional raids and/or buying gear obtained via conventional raiding? Absolutely.

If your desire is to be able to obtain any and all gear without ever having to raid or buy equipment obtained via raiding, then Vanguard may not be for you. But if you are content with obtaining some subset of the best gear without raiding or buying raid dropped equipment (or items created via crafting from harvested components obtained via raiding), then I think Vanguard will be fine for you.

Really, if you want the option of obtaining any item in the game period without buying/trading for it, you'll need to involve yourself in all aspects of the game, not just raiding. You'll need to level up in harvesting/crafting, level up in diplomacy, experience the higher end grouping dungeons and such, and also have the tenacity and patience to invest quite a bit of time in the game in general, as going on a high level adventure, whether group or raid oriented, doesn't guarantee that you will obtain that item you seek anyway. Someone else might get the item, or the item might not be available each and every time anyway, as perhaps the rare spawn that drops that item, or rare harvestable, just isn't around that night, or the quest that triggers a sequence of encounter segments that leads to that 'golden' boss mob might already be taken by another group, or even the mob or switch or item or whatever flags you and your group as being able to participate on the encounter segment might not be 'up' either.

Bottom line: if you want it all, you have to be willing to participate in all aspects of the game, especially if you are not willing to buy/trade and participate in the player driven economy, and when I say 'all' of the game, that would include the raids as well.

Does this answer your question? If not, I will try to explain further.

Please explain further – that doesn’t necessarily seem consistent:

Aradune Mithara: No, I think my posts were consistent, although perhaps not as clear as they could have been. Some of the best items will only be obtainable via raiding, other best items through grouping, and others through special casual areas, and others through the other spheres (harvesting/crafting and diplomacy).

Let me try to come up with a quick hypothetical example -- it's simplistic, but perhaps will make more sense:

1. The best all around helmet (say non-situational -- it has the best AC, or the best +STR attribute) for a warrior may come from a high level group zone

2. The best fire resistant vambraces may come from a raid zone

3. The best light armor boots may come from a challenging encounter that is made for casual/solo size groups (1-3).

4. The best AC armor (call it the Red Dragonscale Breastplate) may come from dragon scales collected in a difficult group dungeon, but then also require a high level harvester to actually collect the scales in the depths of a the dragon's lair, and then a high level crafter to be able to use it and other components to actually create the Red Dragonscale Breastplate

5. The best +Charisma Cloak (call it the Royal Red Sparrow Robe) that enables you access to the throne room in New Targonor may come from a series of challenging diplomatic quests requiring high skills, items, and strategy used by one or more players playing in the Diplomacy sphere.

Were a person to absolutely insist on obtaining all 5 of these hypothetical items above, he would have to either a. engage in all 5 activities to some significant extent, as well as work with others in most of the examples or b. buy/trade for them, assuming they are items that are tradable.

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http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1401499#post1401499

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Originally posted by Lendal1

You're wrong, Amathe.  Sigil is making the game for 'core' gamers.   Thats a term they use to mean the larger segmet of the player spectrum between 'hard core' and 'soft core'.  In other words, the average player.

They don't want to be a 'niche' market.  They are aiming at the broadest segment of the MMORPG player base.  As they should, IMHO.  It doesn't make economic sense to do it any other way.

There are, or were, some hardcore gamers on the Vanguard forums who thought if they posted loud enough they might influence Sigil to make a hard core game.  That didn't happen.  Sigil is making a 'normal' game for the masses.

They don't want to be a 'niche' market.  They are aiming at the broadest segment of the MMORPG player base.  As they should, IMHO.  It doesn't make economic sense to do it any other way.

There are, or were, some hardcore gamers on the Vanguard forums who thought if they posted loud enough they might influence Sigil to make a hard core game.  That didn't happen.  Sigil is making a 'normal' game for the masses.

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I wish I was wrong. Like you, I bought the "core gamer" mantra hook, line and sinker. That's why I followed the game for years and was once an enthusisatic supporter. In fact, when powergamers would post that Vanguard was for them and them alone, I would correct them and say pretty much what you just said in your response. And if you were right, I would play this game and enjoy it (as I have many other mmos, such as EQ, EQ2, SWG, CoH, CoV, WoW, GW, etc., etc.).

But as has become more clear over time, this "core gamer" concept is misleading. It doesn't mean what you have been led to believe it means. A "core gamer", in reality, is a more akin to a former EQ player who spent 6 years of their life doing nothing but playing EQ all day long who now has had to get a job. They log on 4-6 hours a night now because they have other responsibilities, but when they do log on they play with the raid/powergamer/elite mindset they always did. A core gamer is just a powergamer with less time to play. By this definition, Vanguard is directed to the core player, and if you meet this definition you may enjoy the game. If you don't, I guarantee you that you won't.

If you are not a core gamer by the above definition, will you be able to roll a character and kill some meaningless wandering mobs for some meaningless loot where your character will be absurdly weak to the point the game is a misery? Sure. Just don't confuse claims of "content" with "enjoyable content". If you are not a powergamer by mindset, you will hate this game like hot death on toast. And that is by design, because the Vision (tm), in a nutshell, is the glorification of elite players at the expense of everyone else.

Now, to be clear, I am ok with that. There are a lot of games on the market and there is nothing wrong with having different strokes for different folks. Just because I don't want to play this one doesn't mean there aren't people who will love it. But what galls me is the misleading advertising that Sigil and SOE are spewing these days, where they are creating the false perception that this is a game that casual players, solo players, and people who don't have a lot of time can play and enjoy. That's not true. They are only saying that out of fear that the subscription numbers for this game will mirror the type of game that it actually is, and that's just not enough folks.

Buy Vanguard. Give them $50. Tell me I'm a WoW kiddie and that I don't know what I'm talking about. Just do me one favor. When you get burned, right before you hit "cancel", pause and remember that I told you so.

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Originally posted by Kem0sabe
From what i could understand from brad´s communication, its just a PR stunt. Most people that have showed even the slightest interest in vanguard have gone and took a look at the boards, and all they see is 100´s of "this game is not for you" "go back to WoW" "We don't want in game maps" "we want harsher death penalty" ,etc.

The biggest obstacle vanguard has to pass to get some good pr and to generate some positive interest from most mmorpg players, its the Vanguard community, the smartest thing sigil could have done was to have no forums at all while the game was beeing developed, and only use forums for the beta testers.

Maybe it will change once vanguard is released and they take down all the "official" forums, but i think the damage already has been done.

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Very true statement.  Particularily 3 months or so ago.  Now that the community on the official site is getting rather massive most of the "we hate all things WoW" strings of posts have have either stopped or are equally contested.

In regards to the specific topics however there will be in game maps, and the death penalty actually fluxes, as in different types of death have different penalty...which inherently makes some places considerably more risky.

But yes, much of the VG boards were completely dominated by EQ1 vets many of which were hard core raiders and wanted VG to be the same.  Thus its not surprising that many people walked away bitter about being trash talked to and left with the burning impression that VG is hard core raiding only.  When beta 5 comes around and the NDA is lifted and some decent previews start coming around perhaps that will be what it takes to "fix" that perception?  Who knows.

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Originally posted by Amathe

Now, to be clear, I am ok with that. There are a lot of games on the market and there is nothing wrong with having different strokes for different folks. Just because I don't want to play this one doesn't mean there aren't people who will love it. But what galls me is the misleading advertising that Sigil and SOE are spewing these days, where they are creating the false perception that this is a game that casual players, solo players, and people who don't have a lot of time can play and enjoy. That's not true. They are only saying that out of fear that the subscription numbers for this game will mirror the type of game that it actually is, and that's just not enough folks.

Buy Vanguard. Give them $50. Tell me I'm a WoW kiddie and that I don't know what I'm talking about. Just do me one favor. When you get burned, right before you hit "cancel", pause and remember that I told you so.

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I rather enjoyed WoW.  I guess I understand their version of a core gamer differently.  My wife and I have very little time durring a week to play (perhaps 2hrs a day max if we're lucky?).  On some weekends we may have time to spend a large chunk here and there.  It appears that we'll do fine but that is our impressi