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News & Features Discussion  » Star Wars Galaxies: Editorial: Audience Alienation

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  User Deleted
6/13/06 3:57:36 PM#121

Great read and sums up the whole SOE/LA SWG debacle in a concise way.

SWG willg o down in MMO game history for mismanagement and i hope no other playerbase has to put up with constant crap that we've had to put up woth from the devs of the game.

  Siceolai

Novice Member

Joined: 4/16/06
Posts: 6

6/13/06 3:59:33 PM#122

Originally posted by Amathe

Never in my life have I experienced such arrogance as with SOE and SWG. To say they wouldn't listen is like saying the ocean is wet, or that outer space is big. You just can't do justice to the magnitude of the concept  with words.

SOE is saying things NOW that were told to them in beta by many people, including me. Only back then, they not only didn't listen, they locked your threads as being "unconstructive."


It has been a long time since I played SWG, but I had forgotten this aspect of SOE.  However, I completely agree, both with the article and this comment.  It felt as though they were trying to manipulate public opinion by censoring their media.  It was creepy and Imperialistic...in a non-RP sort of way. 

I'll be honest, I miss having a non-fantasy game.  WoW is great.  CoH is fun once in a while.  But SWG has such potential.  If only they spent more time writing intersting quests instead of reworking the system, it could have been great. 

If they (someone other tha SOE) restarted the game just as it was out of the box (perhaps with a somewhat simpler crafting system), I would give it another try.  Back then and true to the movies there were no Jedi, the classes we well-balanced and intersting, the RP was good and available, but not overbearing for those not interested...it had many strengths. 
  HavokRainer

Novice Member

Joined: 6/10/06
Posts: 6

I''m going to live forever or die trying.

6/13/06 4:07:26 PM#123
This is one of the best articles i've read about SOE. Your analogy is one of the best ones i've read too. This goes out to SOE "If it aint broke, don't fix it".
  got2kill

Novice Member

Joined: 5/25/06
Posts: 39

"We relize that people want Pre-Nge, but it is not going to happen"

-John Smedley

6/13/06 4:10:38 PM#124
nicely put, to bad soe's devs aren't smart and don't listento player input
  kelisw

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/19/05
Posts: 2

6/13/06 4:13:26 PM#125
Originally posted by Squidi
Old news. Maybe this article could've had some value SIX MONTHS ago, but at this late stage in the game, it is little more than a grudge. You want to write something about SWG, why not send someone in there to write about the state of the game TODAY, not SIX MONTHS ago. Just in case you missed it, SIX MONTHS ago. Even in the real world, six months is old news. Just become some whiney vets still carry that grudge long past its expiration date (and look at how mature they are about it) does NOT make it relevant. It's just pandering, plain and simple.

Write about the current state of the game. Hell, if you want, I'll do it. Just GET OVER IT ALREADY. A public editorial is not the place to play out an ages old grudge.

yeah well the titanic sank almost 100 years ago, and people still talk about it and debate what went wrong.
SWG NGE is the titanic of the MMO world. 6 months is nothing
  Clattuc

Novice Member

Joined: 4/04/05
Posts: 165

6/13/06 4:18:57 PM#126

Originally posted by Squidi
Old news. Maybe this article could've had some value SIX MONTHS ago, but at this late stage in the game, it is little more than a grudge.


Nope, it's an analysis of what they did wrong, and a good one.  Your definition of "some value" is unnecessarily restrictive.  No magazine editorial is going to convince SOE/LA to change course, so it's pointless to say that "six months ago" would have been a better time to write this and have them ignore it.


You want to write something about SWG, why not send someone in there to write about the state of the game TODAY, not SIX MONTHS ago. Just in case you missed it, SIX MONTHS ago. Even in the real world, six months is old news.

I would suggest here that the editorial author didn't want to "write something about SWG" in a generic sense, but rather wanted to write about the specific thing he wrote about.  If you have a different article in mind, why not write it yourself and submit it?


Just become some whiney vets still carry that grudge long past its expiration date (and look at how mature they are about it) does NOT make it relevant. It's just pandering, plain and simple.


It is interesting how much name calling the post-NGE supporters engage in - note Darth_Sushi's recurrent "precutards" neologism.  I have noticed that when Forum posters have the facts on their side, they tend to be remarkably polite and tolerant, since the facts are kicking a** for them.  It's when the facts aren't so convenient that the venom and names come out.  In this case, the inconvenient fact is that SOE made the game worse.  And veterans both "whiney" and otherwise, including many of the most admired and respected players and SWG citizens in the game, have denounced the changes and either left the game or gone dormant.  The most vocal defenders among the "Left Behind"(TM) therefore brand them as whiners, gripers, haters, or what have you.  And they cling to the only fact they have, which is that SOE isn't going to revert to the better game.  No argument there.

So now it's time to learn some lessons for the next great game.  And that is not "pandering" or a "grudge" or anything else of the sort.  It's vital to prevent repeating SOE's mistakes.  Better games may result.
  Ender4212

Novice Member

Joined: 7/07/05
Posts: 8

6/13/06 4:30:47 PM#127

I beta tested and then went on to play SWG until the release of the NGE.  It used to be my favorite game by far.  It's a shame to see how it is now and even worse that they(SOE/LA) seem absolutely blind to it all.  Nobody wanted a WoW clone, we were largely happy with what we had.

Yes, there needed to be a focus on the GCW, DOTs needed to be addressed, more viable armor options outside of composite, insanely powerful doctor buffs, etc.  Addressing those issues alone would've alleviated many issues.  What we got instead were two completely differing combat systems, each leading to more subscription losses for SOE/LA. 

I've resubscribed  a few times to see if I can bear to play it, and I can't.  Now I'm looking at my next game(Vanguard) possibly running into similar issues with them bringing SOE in as co-publisher and seemingly revamping many features to become more mainstream. 

McQuaid from Sigil, like the SWG devs, seem to be unwilling to be able to admit they were wrong on any issues.  If SWG could suck it up and go back to what we enjoyed playing, I know at least 20+ people who would gladly resubscribe.  Imagine that on a large scale...

  Tauceti

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/24/06
Posts: 168

"There is no such thing as coincidence; just other peoples plans you have no knowledge of."

6/13/06 4:31:39 PM#128

Originally posted by iceman00

Originally posted by Tauceti

Hi all,

1st, let me say that I thought this article was well written and covered many of our points extremely well.

2nd, let me say that I very happy someone has finally had the guts to write such an article. This article should be stickyed in the general discussion forum for future players. Lets also, hope that this start a trend by similar sites to stand up and write such articles. Maybe then the lights will be turned on at SOE / LA and they'll wake up and do something decent about this.

3rd, I agree with about 90% of what was said. I however feel that the Pre-CU SWG had awesome potential. If they had spent the time and effort fixing the bugs, make minor adjustment to the combat system, and avoided using the Nerf bat, we would still be playing a great game. Especially and most importantly if they had spent the time and resources developing a lot of content and a true GCW, then I firmly believe SWG would have gone over 500K in subscription. The Pre-CU SWG was trule revolutionary, I especially say this since I've looked for a replacement and have yet to find one.

Anyhow that my 2 cents.

IMO,

Tauceti



Oh I agree the Pre-CU was revolutionary.  And I was an ardent fan of it, and still am.  However my focus was more based upon the reason why SOE/LA/your mother/ whoever it was that decided to make the changed.  :)


Please don't mis-understand my intent on comment number 3. I was merely wanted to state that I felt that if SOE / LA had managed Pre-CU SWG better than it had, that it could have easily done much better in subscription. I also firmly believe if the game had a truly developed GCW, the way most fans of Star Wars and the game had invisioned [in many ways I think this is what many really meant when some said that wanted more of a Star Wars fell] it might have even competed quite well with WoW.

IMO,

Tauceti



  dolanious

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/02/06
Posts: 187

6/13/06 4:37:13 PM#129
The worst thing about all of this? No-one in the industy seems to be listening.

A real point here, that seems to get lost in all the side discussion, is the very real fact that Linear has won over Sandbox style of MMO. This has set the industry back about 6 years in my opinion. The "WoW effect" has single-handedly caused the sex change of SWG from an open-ended sandbox, to a sick, perverted, half-breed of a Linear crossover.

I just can't understand why developers hate sand-box games so much. Sandbox games are what the ultimate MMO is supposed to be, not linear.... not cooky-cutter... these types of MMO's can never simulate an open-ended world with the freedoms that sandbox games can. This linear crap that the "WoW effect" has brought has perverted the industry away from sand-box style games... as proof, one only needs to look at the games currently in development on the MMO horizion to see that there are zero sandbox MMO's even on the drawing board.

The next company to create a sandbox MMO will get my money, and lots of it.

Also, there needs to be more space-based MMO's (EVE doesn't really count, it's more of an RTS-MMORPG)... an MMO that ties the space game into the ground game (instead of two seperate entity's like SWG [unfortunatly] did) ... personally, I hate this cartoony fantasy crap that's out their right now. I hope we see a shift in the next generation of MMO's towards space-based settings.

I think we're entering a "dark age" in MMO history, where nothing of substance is being created, no real quality, no depth, no breadth.... and no end in sight.
  Dulok

Novice Member

Joined: 4/24/06
Posts: 10

6/13/06 4:37:54 PM#130
Well said.  It seems today in alot of businesses it's all about getting the new buyer and forgot about the current users.
  royalpenalty

Novice Member

Joined: 4/26/06
Posts: 314

its hard to have an intelligent discussioin about something as stupid as the NGE...

6/13/06 4:48:50 PM#131

hmmm, perhaps i should start a gaming site, i've been saying this since October-November when the first rumors about the NGE were starting to circulate.

i have started at least 5 threads on the Nazi boards saying exactly this, and all have been deleted rather quickly.

SWG ADDICT...clean since the NGE

  lordhavoc450

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/06
Posts: 23

6/13/06 4:49:37 PM#132

Nice article!!!

Sums up what peolple have been screaming about for months. It is nice to see it in such a highlighted state, on a website that has a dedicated MMO fan base.  Lets hope other MMORPGs listen to what has/is being said.

  SratoEd

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/06
Posts: 19

Necromancer "BLARRGHH!! DEATH, DEATH, DEATH!!! FEAR ME!"

6/13/06 5:02:11 PM#133
Very nicely written. And it sums up SWG in a "nutshell." I played SWG from release, and stuck in there up until this January, and it was the best MMO I've played so far. I just wounder how long it will take for SOE to admit their mistakes and fix it....oh wait that will NEVER happen .

Srato Ed: SWG,EQ,EQII,EVE,GW,GWF,WOW

  Grifin

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/04
Posts: 91

6/13/06 5:03:48 PM#134
yes.
  ajmstilt

Novice Member

Joined: 4/17/05
Posts: 30

The world will end, not with a Bang, but with a "do''oh!"

6/13/06 5:05:06 PM#135

I loved Pre CU SWG (I loved pre holocron SWG even more) it was a virtual world that I loved to loose myself in.  To this day I compare every MMO I play to SWG.  And all come up short.  Unfortunatly the SWG I remeber is no longer, and most likely will never exist again.

Had SWG not had the CU or NGE, I'd still be playing, and I'd still be paying SOE a monthly subscription fee.

But I am still searchign for that game to replace classic SWG if a developer manages to recreate that world, I'd sign up in an instant.

  sygmas

Novice Member

Joined: 12/12/04
Posts: 955

6/13/06 5:12:40 PM#136

Originally posted by BigJonno
What makes it worse is that if there ever was a game that needed to stick to its guns, it was SWG. I played the game a couple of months after release and, barring the inevitable problems caused by releasing about six months early, the vast majority of the complaints were from people who just didn't get it. I remember the rallying cry of "please don't let this game be Everquest in space!" It wasn't, it was something completely different and I don't think anyone could have done a better job of recreating an existing setting.

It seems to me that there are two distinct types of MMO out there. Massively multiplayer online games and massively multiplayer online worlds. WoW is very much a MMOG, it is designed to be played in a certain way and everything is geared to creating a fun playing experience. It's probably why this style of game has so many endgame problems, but that's another topic. SWG was very much an online world. There was no particular goal, you were given the Star Wars universe and could live in it however you liked. The reliance on other players (outside of the normal grouping context) was very indicitive of this. The people who were complaining were those who wanted a game and not a world. They were the ones maxing out their characters and wondering what they were supposed to do next. Unfortunately they were a very vocal group and I think that SWG's downfall is a result of that group being listened to too closely.


This is exactly right.  The developers admit this themselves, they are going for a 'game' not an online world anymore.  Star Wars is a type of license that has many 'games' out there -- in many genres, of many types, including multiplayer capable ones.  What Star Wars didnt have was a recreation of its universe as a whole -- a world, and thats what SWG was to be.  (And why it was my first MMORPG, because I'm a devout SW fan and there was nothing more appealing than living in a SW world to me)

Once they changed and made it evident their intention was to get away from this type of game, I was pretty much gone for good.

  Torchsinger

Novice Member

Joined: 5/28/06
Posts: 11

6/13/06 5:17:25 PM#137

How many Vets remember what happened when the CU came out???

There was a gathering in Theed of players complaining about the Combat Upgrade and how no one wanted it! Remember what SOE did?

THEY BOOTED US ALL OUT OF THEED! CLOSED THE CITY TO EVERYONE.. BANNED ANY GATHERINGS AND EVEN BOOTED PAYING CUSTOMERS OFF THE GAME WHO VOICED THEIR COMPLAINTS.

Is it me or does SOE need some serious customer relations training?

  remyburke

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/03/04
Posts: 3052

I liked MMOs better when gamers didn't play them, and just geeks did.

6/13/06 5:37:26 PM#138
Great article.

Now if you don't mind, I'm going to go back to dreaming about PU13.

SOE is doing the same damn thing to EQ2...and thus I have now quit playing that as well.


Sony, in all honesty, you are never getting my money again. I don't care if it's a pair of headphones.

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  JonathJCen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/16/03
Posts: 193

Eternal life brings eternal hunger.

6/13/06 5:54:20 PM#139

    Very well writen article and exacly what I've been trying to get through to $OE. Glad to see that someone with the tools of greater influince shares my logic

SWG killed my inner child
  iceman00

Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/05
Posts: 1367

Kevin Tierney

6/13/06 5:59:19 PM#140

Originally posted by generis2

Although I agree with most points made in the editorial, I would like to offer another angle to be explored:

There is no doubt that WoW is the undisbuted King of MMO's.  It has generated more player base (i.e. introduced fresh people to MMO) than previouly thought possible.  With a market share of 50%+ across the major MMO titles (source: www.mmogchart.com), there is no way that SOE will allow to let the potential $$$ to silde.

it can be debated if WoW is currently hemorrhaging subscribers and in what amounts (I'll just assume there are and the peole leaving are looking for a new game to try). Even if it's a small fraction, it's still a considerable amount of people. 

SWG has about 1.5% share of the same market (same source as above).  If I am a SOE exec., i would seriously look at the possibility of WoW-ify-ing (trans: to make your current game play like WoW and appeal to current WoW patrons) my game and hope to attract the people leaving WoW in search of something new. 

From the point of $$$, even if SOE have to lose a fraction of the 1.5% in SWG to attract the possibility of a fraction of the 50% from WoW, it's an oppertunity they can not miss!

How does that sounds for an excuse? hehe



Sure.  :)

However I think a few things are overlooked.  What made WoW so big?  Was it just the gameplay?  What made the gameplay really that much different from every other linear game?  However, WoW had reliable customer service, few if any bugs, and they were willing to stand behind their products, not consistently change them.

If SWG had followed these 3 principles before they talked about content, then they would've challenged WoW, easily.

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