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News & Features Discussion  » Star Wars Galaxies: Editorial: Audience Alienation

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Novice Member

Joined: 9/01/04
Posts: 1

6/13/06 12:39:26 PM#101
Best one I have seen to date about the changes. I couldn't not agree more.

Novice Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 416

6/13/06 12:45:03 PM#102




Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/04
Posts: 5

6/13/06 1:03:10 PM#103
State the obvious much? Though I must admit I agree with everything the poster says. I as a day one player can honestly say that the biggest thing that Sony did wrong is that they did NOT add enough new content for the ground game. They spent most of their development time early on, bringing in and fixing things that was already in (or should have been in) the game at launch. The rest of their efforts focused on space combat which had nothing to tie it to the ground game.

They had the same creatures/planets/missions for far too long that instead of focusing on the new content, the player base figured "well if this is all we're getting, this isn't good enough. So make it better." But SoE just could not show themselves as a quality group of developers. Obviously the more time went on, the more it seemed to be the same old game. I don't know if that is Lucasart's or Sony's fault, but very quickly it seemed that all creativty just ceased to be.

Where's Hoth, Dagobah, Cloud City, Ord Mantell? You find that out, and you find out why they needed to DUMB DOWN THE GAME and re-make it with new shiny toys for the newcomer at the expense of the long term gamer.

Guess I'm stating the obvious too.

Novice Member

Joined: 11/25/05
Posts: 1260

6/13/06 1:08:49 PM#104

Originally posted by Squidi
Old news. Maybe this article could've had some value SIX MONTHS ago, but at this late stage in the game, it is little more than a grudge. You want to write something about SWG, why not send someone in there to write about the state of the game TODAY, not SIX MONTHS ago. Just in case you missed it, SIX MONTHS ago. Even in the real world, six months is old news. Just become some whiney vets still carry that grudge long past its expiration date (and look at how mature they are about it) does NOT make it relevant. It's just pandering, plain and simple.

Write about the current state of the game. Hell, if you want, I'll do it. Just GET OVER IT ALREADY. A public editorial is not the place to play out an ages old grudge.

Why I was just in last month and you know what? It is still the same broke POS they dumped on us in NOV. so why waste the time or money? The fact that we are still mad 7 months after the fact should indicate to even a fanboi such as yourself that we felt wronged by SOE for the entire NGE debacle and that we will never forgive them. Most of us have moved on to other games but we still hold an interest in this one.

Betrayal is one of the strongest emotions there is that is why Treason carries the death penatly. While not a betrayal that endangered national security(probably even enhanced it after a lot of military lost their favorite game and therefore a reason to sneak back to the barracks and squeeze in 20 min when  the sgt wasn't looking) it is still important to the people that played SWG.

p.s. Whining about people whining is rather hypocitical.

aetiuslonginus Xfire Miniprofile

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/04
Posts: 1312

6/13/06 1:11:38 PM#105

This editorial takes all the things I wish I could have said in the many posts on this forum and others and puts them all together, making sense, and spelling out exactly what happened to a once great MMO.

My biggest fear after this all happened was that my other favorite mmo, Everquest II, might fall subject to some scheme in order to get more subscribers for SOE.  Yes, EQ2 has changed alot since launch, often taking features and ideas from WOW, but the fundamental game is still intact, and that is the most important point that was made in the editorial, I think.

People making arguments for the NGE often say that mmorpgs are works in progress and very often change, but not as drastically as we've all seen with SWG, so much that it appears to be a totally different game (and one that really looks like it should be on a console, but I won't get into that here).


Novice Member

Joined: 12/26/05
Posts: 21

6/13/06 1:31:29 PM#106
Excellent article. If SOE had fixed the original game's bugs I doubt they'd be in the situation they are now. The bugs alone made me leave; I don't have infinite patience to wait for game fixes.

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/31/04
Posts: 1

6/13/06 1:45:38 PM#107

An exellent article. The whoe SWG saga should be taught in business school about how not to completely screw up the most valuable license in gaming.

How can they, SOE and Lucas, have been so irresponsible that they alienated the huge number of fans and subsribers and decimated the best license ever? unbelievable!

Time to call it a day for a month or two, remove the "upgrades" and get back to basics maybe even fix the bugs and fire whoever was in charge of customer relations.


Novice Member

Joined: 5/29/06
Posts: 705

6/13/06 1:46:24 PM#108
Amen to that editorial.

Novice Member

Joined: 6/03/04
Posts: 8

6/13/06 1:52:44 PM#109

Very good article.  While the radical changes to EQ2 have been much better, it is very stupid that SOE has to change EVERY game they have in order for it to be decent.  I would just once like to play a game made by SOE that didn't completely change within the first year or 2.  

 I played SWG for about 2 months when it was first released.  Ironically some of the reasons I quit are things they fixed.  I really thought the classes/skills etc. were very complicated, so was the crafting very complicated I also thought the way you shot things with a blaster was really weird.  I wanted it to be like KOTOR and it was blast this, no aiming, wait your next turn.  However, even after the changes it still stinks because of the bugs and the half assed way it has been thrown together. 

If they wanted to impliment an easier system with slimmed down classes and a better real-time combat system, then it should have been implimented in SWG2 or something.  But completely redesigning a game that has been out for several years was foolhardy.  I also have a problem with sticking to the Star Wars mythology, hundreds of Jedi running around after they had supposedly been slaughtered... whats up with that?


Novice Member

Joined: 7/14/04
Posts: 6


6/13/06 1:54:32 PM#110
I agree 100% with the article, well written, good job. I'm a SWG vet, haven't played it in a long time. I really miss the old SWG before the 2 upgrades. Some of my best MMO memories are of playing SWG. Such a shame it's turned out like it has.

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/06
Posts: 432

Your Favorite Console Sucks

6/13/06 2:01:49 PM#111
Thank you, Kevin, for putting a title to the plight of the displaced SWG vet.  And thank you for reiterating, in slightly more coherent form, everything we have been saying.  Don't disrupt your playerbase.  Word of mouth is still what sells MMOs.  And even if your IP is Star Wars, you are guaranteed NOTHING.

It's so ironic, how close SOE and LA came to being the first American MMO to a million subscribers.  Before the CU was released in April 2005, the SWG devs were working on what was known as the CURB (Combat Upgrade/ReBalance) in late 2004 and early 2005.  Devs such as GreenMarine patrolled the boards looking for, and responding to in some way, good and well-thought-out ideas.  They brought the community into the discussion, and made everyone feel as if their voices counted.  And they did!  Things were implemented on the backend in testing that mimicked what the community was asking for.  A curbing of Combat Medic's power (the nuclear option), more droids, more content, the Smuggler's Revamp (an object of myth at this point)... but no simplification of combat, no change in rounds or queue.  Then rumblings were heard that GreenMarine was gone, along with other devs who supported the CURB, and we got the CU.  The rest is history.

For what it's worth, I cancelled my last account on June 3 of this year.  I tried to work with the NGE, I really did.  I loved Star Wars.  No longer.  SOE has lost a customer permanently, that goes without saying.  But LucasArts has succeeded in turning away a potential lifetime customer as well.  Not just for games, either.  I will no longer buy anything with the Lucas name on it, or where Lucas is associated with it.  I will not buy the DVDs of the original movies, or any other releases.  I will not buy any more LucasArts games.  And if the live-action Star Wars television show is ever released, I will watch it, and specifically avoid purchasing anything from any advertiser that puts a spot on during the show.

There's a sucker born every minute. - P.T. Barnum


Novice Member

Joined: 4/13/06
Posts: 6

6/13/06 2:11:29 PM#112

This is exactly why I quit.  The CU was bad and NGE even worse.


Novice Member

Joined: 11/03/04
Posts: 424

6/13/06 2:24:22 PM#113
Thanks for depicting us, the swg (ex)players, to the rest of your readers. This is history guys, this is pure history in the gaming industry. The new paradigm of what NOT to do.

Novice Member

Joined: 11/29/04
Posts: 30

6/13/06 2:29:32 PM#114

I concur that this article sums up the passing of the ages in this game.  I also found it interesting the rather subtle, damaging changes that did occur due to the passing of the veterans away from SWG.   The point about less available teaching and community resources is certainly a nasty and underappreciated side effect of SOE's changes.

Ultimately though, no matter how much any of us liked, loved or hated the game, it will likely not change SOE's viewpoint.  They seem hellbent on catching Blizzard's brushfire of a hit called WOW regardless.  If any of the numbers on subscriptions are true, then it is interesting that none of these MMORPGs, escpecially by Sony, have caught the imagination around the world as well as WoW.

Sadly, SWG followed that pattern and lost its core.  But, I suspect they lost a core cadre early on when the eagerest of SW fans flocked to the game, despite not being gamers.  The Everquest Grind thinking, coupled with being Uncle Owen more than say even a Wedge, drove them from the game after the first 90 days - 6 months.

And thank you Kevin for summing up this SWG experience for us.  Very nicely done!


Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/12/06
Posts: 1009

6/13/06 2:37:46 PM#115

SW:G was a dead game before it released. Anyone who was in beta saw it. There was a huge cry from the beta testers to stop the release. A game with almost no content, a poorly designed skill system (4 different ranged combat types??), several professions who hadn't even been beta tested, no real reason to pvp, clunky interface, boring combat, and worlds that made the Sahara desert seem "full of stuff", really said "No!" to releasing it.

But the bean counters won. WoW was going to gobble up all their subs (and did).

I feel sorry for the people who thought the game was the best thing since sliced bread. I don't understand how anyone could feel that way about such a hunk of junk, but maybe the  "Star Wars" aura overwhelmed them while they danced the night away in a cantina AFK.

I don't have much pity though, they should have known what was going on when they didn't lift the NDA till it was released... helloooooooo if a game company doesn't lift the NDA till release, that means one and only one thing: IT SUCKS. Of course, if your game sucks, you're doomed anyways. Look at DDO.... they lifted their NDA and the hue and cry was loud: IT SUCKS. And it cost them.

Lesson to developers: Don't make a game that SUCKS. Note WoW, with its no NDA... hugely successful. Why? It doesn't suck. It might not be for everyone, but as a game, it was "fun", for a while. Not so many bugs... and if they'd stop babying the shamans (heh), the game could be fairly well balanced.

Note: I don't play WoW anymore. I don't really play anything anymore. I'm using up a free month on EQ2 atm, and its far better than it was in beta, you can actually, you know, DO stuff without having a group of 6. But its just gonna be the same ol "grind", and I don't think I can take that again. Vanguard, you listening?


Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/20/06
Posts: 310

6/13/06 2:39:34 PM#116

A perfect 10 out of 10 for summing up this whole ball of wax, this article needs to be faxed and emailed to SoE and LA's offices everyday, over and over to drive the point home.  Then maybe they will get it.  Probably not, but there is always a chance, however slim.


Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/05
Posts: 1367

Kevin Tierney

6/13/06 2:42:40 PM#117

Originally posted by Mythor
I can't believe how many pats on the back this article is getting for the writer.
Everything in it was said far more eloquently any number of times 4-5 months ago when it became clear the NGE was a dud. The writing was on the wall 3 months ago as the servers became ghost towns and you could go an entire play session and only see one other person in your travels.

This article is at least 2 months too late, and that's being kind.
It really should have been saved and posted as part of a post-mortem in the inevitable: "Star Wars Galaxies: How To Successfully Launch A Game And Still Be Judged A Failure" article for when the servers are shut down at the end of the year.

Well I'd like to thank everyone for the pats on the back, as "this writer" is yours truly.  :)  I've been arguing this line in numerous other venues for quite some time.  It's just that on the SWG forums on this site that argument came up again by one of the NGE defenders, and when nobody presented it, I ran with it.

Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/05
Posts: 1367

Kevin Tierney

6/13/06 2:45:47 PM#118

Originally posted by Tauceti

Hi all,

1st, let me say that I thought this article was well written and covered many of our points extremely well.

2nd, let me say that I very happy someone has finally had the guts to write such an article. This article should be stickyed in the general discussion forum for future players. Lets also, hope that this start a trend by similar sites to stand up and write such articles. Maybe then the lights will be turned on at SOE / LA and they'll wake up and do something decent about this.

3rd, I agree with about 90% of what was said. I however feel that the Pre-CU SWG had awesome potential. If they had spent the time and effort fixing the bugs, make minor adjustment to the combat system, and avoided using the Nerf bat, we would still be playing a great game. Especially and most importantly if they had spent the time and resources developing a lot of content and a true GCW, then I firmly believe SWG would have gone over 500K in subscription. The Pre-CU SWG was trule revolutionary, I especially say this since I've looked for a replacement and have yet to find one.

Anyhow that my 2 cents.



Oh I agree the Pre-CU was revolutionary.  And I was an ardent fan of it, and still am.  However my focus was more based upon the reason why SOE/LA/your mother/ whoever it was that decided to make the changed.  :)

Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/05
Posts: 1367

Kevin Tierney

6/13/06 2:51:16 PM#119

Originally posted by Squidi
Old news. Maybe this article could've had some value SIX MONTHS ago, but at this late stage in the game, it is little more than a grudge. You want to write something about SWG, why not send someone in there to write about the state of the game TODAY, not SIX MONTHS ago. Just in case you missed it, SIX MONTHS ago. Even in the real world, six months is old news. Just become some whiney vets still carry that grudge long past its expiration date (and look at how mature they are about it) does NOT make it relevant. It's just pandering, plain and simple.

Write about the current state of the game. Hell, if you want, I'll do it. Just GET OVER IT ALREADY. A public editorial is not the place to play out an ages old grudge.

To be honest I was waiting for when you would post your fanboiness.  :)  Good to see ya Squidi.

However, if you actually read the editorial, you'll notice it has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GAMEPLAY PER SE, but rather the reasons why the gameplay was changed.  Nowhere did I criticize the iconic ideas or the FPS stuff.  Been there, done that, got the T shirt.  However, I've yet to see an editorial here (or anyone in these forums) actually crystalizing and giving a summa of the points I made.

Don't get all upset because an editorial slams your game.  :-p


Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 2

6/13/06 2:52:53 PM#120

I was a subscriber to Star Wars Galaxies back in beta... and six months after release had three seperate accounts.  By only allowing a single character per server per account, for me to completely immerse myself into the game I just needed more characters in order to do EVERYTHING.  When the CU hit, my accounts went down to two.  When the NGE hit... none.  I moved onto better things... like DDO and then World of Warcraft.

There were a lot of bugs initially... and some very simple fixes would have saved the game.  PvP was very unbalanced in SWG... defense stacking ranking amoung the worst.  Simple fix... hard cap the defense stacking to a certain score that is then increased only by attaining a master box in a specified profession (aka.. TKM, MPike, MSword).  This provides a bonus to people who master a profession while at the same time focusing their remaining skills on other things.  It would have allowed them to compete in PvP while at the same time having healing abilities, weaponsmithing, or something else.  SOE in the infinite wisdom ignored us.

Then there were the other bugs that were around since week one but never got resolved.  Anyone that fought with a rifle knows this bug... you go prone to fire and warp 30m toward your target.  Not very good if you are trying to rely on stealth to get a couple shots off before your target sees you.

Then to make matters worse... SOE made it WAY too easy to be a Jedi.  Yes... I had a Jedi.  I earned my jedi in the old system... ground him out in the old system (mostly)... and had it all ripped away with the complete changes they kept doing to the profession up till the time they made it a starting profession.

What I think LA and SOE fail to realize is that of the 350,000 subscribers they HAD, how many would willingly return to a future game that brandishes the SOE logo?  The client base felt betrayed, lied too, and ignored throughout the entire history of the game.  If an SWG2 is released that is promoted to be the *end all* of MMO's and exactly what every Star Wars fan wants... will we believe them?  Will we be willing to quit our current games of World of Warcraft and Dungeons and Dragons Online for one run by an unscrupulous company who really doesn't care about anything other than the bottom dollar?

I think Star Wars Galaxies has ruined the reputation of SOE in the gaming world, not just the SWG license that they currently hold.  If Lucas Arts is smart (and I doubt they are given what they allowed SOE to get away with), they will contract Bioware or even Blizzard to release their next MMO for Star Wars.  Anything else and the MMO community will likely not even bother with them.

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