Thank you Mike for writing this journal entry. I plan on being a Rogue and was hoping that HJ would have a nice system for me to inform other players of the service I would perform and also away for me to see what services they are offering. It can get cummbersome looking in a chat window for someone offering a service I am looking for. The system you descibed sounds great and I cant wait to see it in action along with the rest of the game.

More innovation from HJ. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but it seems like they are picking up the slack for the dev teams that do nothing innovative. Awesome.

I have had nothing but unqualifiedly good things to say about HJ, but this will be my first departure from that.

The philosophy of this game is "more fun, less tedium." I see nothing fun about running all over the place fixing broken this and broken that and depleted some other thing. That sounds like tedium to me. I understand why they are doing it, because there are other games that do it, but I had hoped HJ would stick to its primary vision for the game.

The part about benefits players can bestow on one another, such as rangers increasing speed, is fine. That is an example of a benefit that might be nice, but isn't essential. But I can't be running around with broken or ineffective equipment, so now I am forced to go find someone to remedy that. Which leads to the next issue ...

In EQ 1 I was a ranger and I probably SoW'd about 1,765,987.465 people. The amount of money I was paid for that? Zero. By contrast, druids and wizards who ported people around were paid lots of money for that service. In the examples given in the article, obviously some classes will be cash cows because their services are essential whereas others will get bupkis for their efforts. I realize that the intent of the system isn't to make people rich (I'm getting to that), but it will not be lost on the players that they can make gobs of money with one kind of character and not another. So we start off with a class balance issue before the first sword stroke is even made.

I don't believe you promote community by forcing people to do things that aren't fun. If that were possible, people standing in line at a bus station would be a community. People stuck in traffic on a highway would be a community. People tend to socialize and form bonds when they are having fun together. I thought that was what HJ was about. What the heck is fun about me having to run all the way across some zone to find some guy that I can pay to fix my sword. I buy gas from a gas station near my house. I have been going to that same gas station for 10 years. I don't know the name of the person behind the counter, and I never will. I'm not there to make friends. I'm there because I need gas. She's not there to make friends. She's there to sell gas. But I guess according to HJ theory we are a community.

Please rethink this.

Well, they're not going to force you to use the services. Empaths in DR would get plenty of gems for their services, but not many of them demanded it (and I never saw those that did get treated all that well by the others). You won't have to bug a Warrior to repair your stuff, as there will probably be blacksmiths and the like to do it for you and if it's something they don't waste materials on doing, they shouldn't be charging anyway. Now if it costs materials to do it, then you should expect that they'll want a little something to cover expenses.

I think it's all good stuff. If you don't want to pay, join a guild that has the community that you desire, where they're all friendly and won't go charging you for something like that.

Also, you obviously haven't played any Simu games, as that's what it's all about -- sitting around chatting while an empath drops unconscious at your feet from trying to heal your critical wounds or hanging around the Ranger Guild and chatting while people spam foraging and train other skills. If that's how the services will work, then I'm all for it. Like one of the GMs said. The most fun they had was sitting in the Town Green and popping boxes for people while chatting.

They are not forcing me to use all of the services. I could play this game from stop to start and never need my speed enhanced. Sure that would be nice, but I don't need it. They are going to have an in game teleportation system so that I only have to travel a long distance to that place once anyway. Running faster is just a benny.

But if a substantial amount of my offense and defense comes from the wyr on my weapons and armor, and those crap out on me, you bet I have to fix that. That's a must do if I am going to be effective. And for that I have to trapse off, find some guy and do one of two things - pester him for a freebie (which is annoying to him and annoying to me) or pay him (which is annoying to me). Either way, we sure as hell aren't bonding.

Compounding this is the fact that some classes will clearly be able to print money off this system whereas those of us with fluff or unnecessary abilities will not.

Worse is the fact that in a game that promotes customization I can't choose my service skill - I am stuck with whatever the character class I am gets.

If you want to bring people together in towns, how about making towns fun? Put in some mini games. Make some bars where you can drink and toast. Let people dance or play musical instruments. Give people entertaining skills like juggling or sword swallowing or tightrope walking or you name it - something fun and imaginative. Have events there. There are lots of ways.

Or you could just put in some underinvented, unbalanced, mutual dependancy for unfun things system like this.

If you want to make crafters happy (the obvious driving force behind this move to check the obligatory box in the features list), then give them abilities where people will want to go to them, not have to. Of course that takes a lot more effort and is a lot harder to implement. But I would rather have no system than a half baked system that imposes nothing more than a tedious hardship on me and nothing to show for it other than back to the status quo of my stuff working again, a few gold pieces lighter and my time wasted.

I think if you had played either Dragonrealms or Gemstone then you would have a better understanding of the system that Simu is going to use for this game. These services were never tedious at all in DR or GS. First, it was very easy to find whatever service you needed. Healers(empaths) usually camped out in the center of town so if you needed healing then you knew to always go there. If you needed a box disarmed and unlocked then it was easy to find a locksmith. I never found searching for these services to be tedious and usually had a good time chatting with the other characters.

As for your concern about money. Money has never been an issue in Gemstone. People are tipped for their services but it is an unwritten rule that you never demand money for your service. Healers, for example are tipped very little for their services. A few hundred silvers, maybe 1000, depending on the wounds. Or you could chose to tip gems instead of silver. Locksmiths are tipped a percentage of what's inside of the chest that they have opened. Regardless of the service you offer, it's not much of a way to earn a living, at least not in Gemstone. Hunting is the best way to build up your bank account. Treasure chests contain plenty of silver, gems and artifacts that you can sell for good silver. A lot more silver than you could make by repairing weapons, healing or lockpicking. The serivices that Simu are granting each class are to help add a bit of roleplaying to HJ, not to create an economic imbalance. And if that does manage to happen then Simu has always been good about adjusting the economy and taking money out of the game. So I wouldn't worry about that at all.

Personally, I think what Simu is doing is a great idea. Breakage is a much needed aspect in roleplaying games if you ask me. Some people may not like their weapons and equipment degrading but I think it adds another element to the game. I don't like that weapons in certain games are indestructable. I also like the idea of needing true healing. I don't like RPG's where you get in a fight, take damage, lose hit points but still end up without a scratch. If you get hit hard then you should suffer an injury. A punctured abdomen, a broken leg, whatever. And you should require healing from an empath in order to fix your wounds. I like having that system in Gemstone because it always made me more careful when I hunted. I couldn't be wreckless when I was in battle, even if was just one on one, because I knew that if I got hit too hard then I could suffer a major wound and start bleeding and possibly bleed to death if I didn't find a healer. Those are elements in Gemstone that I wish were in other games. You may find them tedious, but I find them an important part of a good mmorpg.

I guess my concern would be if I had to give my weapon or staff to the warrior or wizard to fix / recharge then they could just scamper with my stuff leaving me high and dry. But I am assuming it opens some trade like window where you can tip if you want, and dont actually pass your gear over.

Well I think its good for promoting balanced parties on quests. Warriors can now fix gear as well as do the grunt work, wizards can recharge their own staffs, rogues can open chests you find, healers and clerics - well that goes without saying, and if you decide to flee an encounter a ranger will be handy.

But maybe Simu could go a bit further with the services. How about everyone thinks up some new ones.

- Rangers could make arrows
- Rogues could act as fences - value gems, items, make poisons.
- Healers could make potions
- Wizards could scribe scrolls, make staves and wands
- Necromancers could make poisons that could be applied to weapons, poison enemy water and food, make staves and wands
- gearknights could fix your clock :), make weapons.
- Clerics could banish spirits. So remove that nasty ghost in the ruin you want to search.
- warriors could beat up things.

So I assuming things like scrolls and potions are in the game.

Oh, one footnote. Did you notice that the "service ability" for the cleric is rez? That is the classic signature ability for a cleric. It's like giving rangers a service ability of shooting arrows, or mages a service ability of casting damage spells. So clerics get nothing under this system they shouldn't already have. The same is true of rogues and lockpicking - a classic rogue skill. That should already be in their skilltree. So they get nothing. What do healers get? You guessed it! They get to heal wounds for a service ability. So what do they get for a skilltree? Snowboarding? Not enough thought went into this.

Oh be quiet really. Like it says, there's still a long ways to go and you obviously don't know Simu. They put loads of thought into everything they do, or at least, they make it seem that way. They won't toss something in without going over all the possibilities first. You've put in your thoughts amidst plenty of whining and I'm sure Illuminati and that other one will pass it along to their development teams.

And apologies for any extra growliness. Simu fanboy here, so... yeah. Sorry.

  Can you explain how warriors would be Magical Item repairers? Most of the other classes have very logical services.Typically Warriors will use magic items to improve there skills. They usually dont have the ability to understand the complexities of those magical energies though. Let alone repair the magical energies of a item. That would require the skills of a mage. This tho brings up the stigma that mages generally arent smiths. Which leaves the question who could repair a magical item. The logical choice is someone who understands and can identify the items energies, but has a very good understanding of physical sciences. The natural choice to me is a bard. This begs the question what does a Warrior do. They deeply understand the physical world much like a gearknight. But gearknights tend to be more mechanical. So warriors make swords, armors, spikes, traps, seige weapons of simple origin. So perhaps they could have a Embelsih item skill to add physical improvements to armor, clothes and weapons. Perhaps even add badges to uniforms via the skills. ALot of the improvements would be simple temporary improvements like leather straps that add a little protection but dont last forever. Sorta like what Leathercrafters leather patches do in WoW, but temporary?

No offense meant by this Amathe, but go pick up a copy of Guild Wars Factions.
It sounds about what you're after.
You don't need to rely on another person if you don't want to. You don't have to worry about weapon degrading or people with signature abilities that are mainly there to promote roleplay.

You just don't get what Hero's Journey is about. It sounds like you're expecting Simu to make their version of WoW or something.
The special class abilities are more about creating community and promoting roleplay, and less about "WTS my abilaty 2 rez u in cas ui die!" BS that every other MMO suffers from.
These abilities will help to create roleplay in the sense that we all have something to provide each other, so there's just as much point for us to gather and sit at the fountain in town, showing off our new forged/found gear, whilst advertising our ability to help others. Roleplay. You know?

Besides, you make it sound as though you're going to go out into battle with one sword, a sword that degrades after 2 hits. That it'll degrade a short part into the mission, that you'll need to take ten minutes to get back into town then have to run around screaming "Heelp meeeeeee!!1!" until someone happens to show up.
If you don't have the brains to take backup gear in a game with a system that has degrades, well... And besides, chances are that you'll have people IN YOUR GROUP that can fix up whatever your problem is on the spot.


Personally, I think this is top stuff from Simutronics. Anything at all that goes beyond CharacterClassClone#325B9 is great, and they're one of the only Devs doing it.
What I would love to see though is for each class to have the choice of say 2 out of 4 special abilities at creation. Thus a Rogue would need to choice two from the choice of 'lock picking, fencing, cloaking other or disarming traps'. Or some choice, you get the idea.
That way reaaally creating choices with services and thus giving us even more customisation.

By the way, to any of the Devs, are the skills something that improve in skill and you get better at? Like, will you need to find a very qualified locksmith to open some dangerous box? Or will just anyone be able to have a good go at opening any box?

Will we as individuals get known for our service abilities?
For example, me being a Healer. Is it possible to get to the point where you'd see someone say "Wow, with a wound like that you'll need to go see Arremus"?

Looking great Simutronics, very fun indeed! (Would love to hear more about wounds and the impact of them please? )
 

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Originally posted by Arremus
No offense meant by this Amathe, but go pick up a copy of Guild Wars Factions.
It sounds about what you're after.
 

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Arremus, I have played almost every major mmorpg to high level, plus I roleplay (which does not, by the way, consist of throwing pennies in fountains while waiting on some Dev mandated timesink to run its course). One thing I have learned from my travels is that while I love some games and dislike others, they all have their charms and their warts (in greater and lesser proportions) so I am a fanboi of none. I call balls and strikes as I see them for the purpose of providing development teams with feedback, which by the way HJ speciifically asked for in the article (feedback, not sycophancy). I didn't hear you complaining about my supposed lack of mmorpg experience or understanding or skill in any of my many threads praising HJ. But now I am critical of a specific HJ system and this makes me a kid or a l33t dude or a whiner? Classic fanboisim. People like you are the reason we keep getting handed slop.

That said, there is nothing wrong, and a lot right, with having class interdependency. Every mmorpg worth its salt seeks to achieve that. It promotes grouping which in turn promotes community and adds depth to group combat. I do think characters should have some soloing ability for many reasons I won't list here, but I certainly support each class having a unique role to play and being needed.

That is NOT the same thing as putting in some arbitrary, concocted reason to have to limp back to town all the time just because some short sited developer thinks repairing my sword will stimulate roleplay or build community. You say that I won't need to do that because my party members can provide that service. Then what's the freaking point? I am already interacting with that person. How does my having to keep asking him for repairs while we are supposed to be having an adventure together do squat for community building? Either you are wrong about how this works or this system is just a waste of time.

Roleplay? "Excuse me Brother Tom, but it appears that my Rubber Sword has lost its elasticity for yet the third time this adventure. Can you repair it once more by striking it with a mallet?" Real swords don't break all the time. They last for years. Real blacksmiths can't fix broken swords sitting in a cave with no equipment. So don't tell me this adds verisimilitude for roleplayers. Even if they could do this, as a professed "rolreplayer", has it occured to you how imprudent that would be? Do you suppose that flailing away with an iron mallet on a piece of metal in an enclosed space might make a lot of noise and be disturbing to any of the residents of that dungeon (picture the incident in the Mines of Moria)? Of course, as we know from a game mechanic perspective mobs are actually stone deaf and routinely ignore these things, but these factors would certainly occur to a roleplayer (at least one that leaves the fountains).

Possibly the purpose of this system is to make sure that soloers can't be in the field for long before their wounds or need for repairs requires them to come home again. So back and forth, back and forth. Tedium. A player like that won't want to sit and pluck geraniums. Could it be that  - yes! It's the reason they are soloing. They will want to get back to what they were doing, annoyed at the interrupition. Again, you can't force people to have mandatory "fun."

When a development team sells me on a game based on a specific vision, I expect them to stick to it. I don't compare apples to oranges. This system would work great in Vanguard. They love pointless extra steps and timesinks over there. It's their version of fun. If this was a Vanguard system, it would fit right in with their thousands of other time wasters. But HJ has said "more fun, less tedium", and that's what I expect them to deliver. This is a departure from that.

Okay - how about people stop giving Amathe a hard time. He has a concern - he has raised it. Thats what these forums are for.

It seems to me Amathe that part of your concern is you think your weapons and equipment are going to degrade really fast/frequently thus requiring you to make lots of trips to town that you would not otherwise have to make.

Can we get some feedback from the Devs on how fast things will degrade?

My expectation is that they will balance it during testing so that you go to town to get stuff fixed about the tiume you would have gone there anyway to unload your junk, shop for goodies etc, so it would be something to encourage you to spend a few more minutes in town and talk to other people.

So I wouldnt expect my sword to break 10 minutes into a mission.

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Originally posted by Kenorv
I think if you had played either Dragonrealms or Gemstone then you would have a better understanding of the system that Simu is going to use for this game. These services were never tedious at all in DR or GS. First, it was very easy to find whatever service you needed. Healers(empaths) usually camped out in the center of town so if you needed healing then you knew to always go there. If you needed a box disarmed and unlocked then it was easy to find a locksmith. I never found searching for these services to be tedious and usually had a good time chatting with the other characters.

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I have played both, though primarily DragonRealms and can say that these services were tedious.

1. Dead, waiting 1.5 to 3 hours for a cleric to happen to wander by (no global chat when dead) - how is this fun? Can't do anything but give a ghostly moan.  Departing meant massive experience loss.

2. So injured that the character can't barely walk let alone go fight for money or experience.  No empath to be found.  Have to travel an hour or three to the nearest NPC empath who might heal some of the injuries but still leave the character damaged with scarring that to go fight would still mean death.

3. Overburdened with chests, trying to find someone to open them.  Have to travel 1 to 3 hours to a town popular enough to have it's own locksmith. Can't fight while overburdened.

What I'd like to see are customized community lists. For example, the ability to list categories, name them, organize them, and assign people them. For example, I could create a list called, "Friends & Family" which has a list of all characters who I want to add to that list.  I could create a list called, "Enemies", or "A-Holes" or "Don't Group With" or "Guild Friends" or whatever I want.

I'd like to pose a question: which class is usually the most popular in a mmorpg?

Is it the fighter?

Yeah, it's the fighter.

So fighters are the most common and fighter can be a 2nd class that can also get this weapon repair skill. This means that there will be more than enough players that will have this skill. This isn't the crafter class that is highly specialized and only dedicated people will take it. This is a class that even casual players will have. Add in a map with icons showing players who have this skill near you and you're set. You may even be teamed up with a wizard/fighter, rogue/fighter, bard/fighter and heck, how about a necro/fighter who can do this for you for free.


What I would like to know is if you can be more than a gearknight and get gearsmith skills. Wouldn't crafting clockwork minions be a nice job skill? Or some kind of gear ability.

Arremus, I have played almost every major mmorpg to high level, plus I roleplay (which does not, by the way, consist of throwing pennies in fountains while waiting on some Dev mandated timesink to run its course).

But you still haven't played Gemstone or Dragonrealms or else you would have a better understanding of what Simu is trying to accomplish with this system.

That is NOT the same thing as putting in some arbitrary, concocted reason to have to limp back to town all the time just because some short sited developer thinks repairing my sword will stimulate roleplay or build community.

You won't have to, trust me. The breakage system that has been used in Gemstone has been a fair system. You won't see your weapon or armor breaking in 10 minutes or anywhere close to that. Usually it's a good long time until something breaks, depending on how much fighting you actually do. And like Arremus said, if you take more than one weapon with you then you shouldn't have any problems. I think the breakage system will be very fair in HJ. I don't think that Simu wants players feeling screwed over by the system, yet at the same time they don't think that weapons and armor should be indestructable and I agree with that. I mean how do you do damage to someone if they have indestructable armor on?

Possibly the purpose of this system is to make sure that soloers can't be in the field for long before their wounds or need for repairs requires them to come home again. So back and forth, back and forth. Tedium. A player like that won't want to sit and pluck geraniums. Could it be that  - yes! It's the reason they are soloing. They will want to get back to what they were doing, annoyed at the interrupition. Again, you can't force people to have mandatory "fun."

Yes but then what's the point of playing a RPG if your character is indestructable? If you don't suffer any wounds and your weapons and armor don't break then how can you feel a sense of accomplishment? I played FFXI and I thought it was silly that you could heal youself just by kneeling. There needs to be more to it than that or else what are you actually accomplishing?

When a development team sells me on a game based on a specific vision, I expect them to stick to it. I don't compare apples to oranges. This system would work great in Vanguard. They love pointless extra steps and timesinks over there. It's their version of fun. If this was a Vanguard system, it would fit right in with their thousands of other time wasters. But HJ has said "more fun, less tedium", and that's what I expect them to deliver. This is a departure from that.

I think that it would be best to at least wait for the beta testing to start before you comment on this. Based on my experiences in Gemstone, I don't think that it will be as bad as you think it will be.

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I have played both, though primarily DragonRealms and can say that these services were tedious.

1. Dead, waiting 1.5 to 3 hours for a cleric to happen to wander by (no global chat when dead) - how is this fun? Can't do anything but give a ghostly moan.  Departing meant massive experience loss.

2. So injured that the character can't barely walk let alone go fight for money or experience.  No empath to be found.  Have to travel an hour or three to the nearest NPC empath who might heal some of the injuries but still leave the character damaged with scarring that to go fight would still mean death.

3. Overburdened with chests, trying to find someone to open them.  Have to travel 1 to 3 hours to a town popular enough to have it's own locksmith. Can't fight while overburdened.

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Sure it can be tough to find a cleric or healer or locksmith at the "dead" hours in GS or DR but I don't think that HJ will have that problem. I don't know what the peak is for players in either of those games now, but when I was playing GS I think it was maybe 1500-2000, maybe not, I can't remember. And the low point was probably 200-300. I expect those numbers to be higher in HJ. I think that Final Fantasy averages 3000 people per server at any given time. Average, not peak. So if HJ can average half that then there should always be plenty of healers, clerics and locksmiths around.

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Originally posted by Netherbeast
I'd like to pose a question: which class is usually the most popular in a mmorpg?

Is it the fighter?

Yeah, it's the fighter.

So fighters are the most common and fighter can be a 2nd class that can also get this weapon repair skill. This means that there will be more than enough players that will have this skill. This isn't the crafter class that is highly specialized and only dedicated people will take it. This is a class that even casual players will have. Add in a map with icons showing players who have this skill near you and you're set. You may even be teamed up with a wizard/fighter, rogue/fighter, bard/fighter and heck, how about a necro/fighter who can do this for you for free.


What I would like to know is if you can be more than a gearknight and get gearsmith skills. Wouldn't crafting clockwork minions be a nice job skill? Or some kind of gear ability.

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Wizard/fighter, necro/figher=gimped. Gimp=boot. No gimps in my party. Sorry, bad Final Fantasy moment there. FF didn't allow much freedom when chosing job combos because the wrong combos meant you were gimped and since that game was all but impossible to solo past level 20(some say level 10 but I could solo to 20 just fine. It just took a long time) unless you were a beastmaster, you weren't getting into a party if you were gimped. I hope that HJ allows for more flexibility with the class combos without players being gimped.