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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » PK's. How should they be dealt with?And the ppl they killed?

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49 posts found
  paradyme

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/10/03
Posts: 239

2/10/04 10:02:53 AM#21

www.meridian59.com has the best open PvP system thats y its the only one still around left untouched.  It's also prolly the only game where the PvP servers r more populated then the PvE servers.

 

http://www.gilcon.net/meridian/ is a great site for info on the game.  All hardcore PvPer's need to play this game its gonna own with the new graphics update and rebindable keys and mouselook.

  Anofalye

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/03
Posts: 7442

The enemy is so dumb! They believe that WE are the enemy! - A famous orc commander.

2/10/04 11:08:51 AM#22

Any MMORPG that allow PK on anyone not working on PvP stuff should be banned, period.

 

If all you want is to solo in your little corner and become the best soloer, nobody should be able to PK you. :)

Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!

- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - René Levesque about the denial NO on the poll to his dream, project and goal. (Free translation)

  Adreal

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/05/04
Posts: 2081

Scripture is only as ambiguous as our ignorance of it allows it to be.

2/10/04 12:16:51 PM#23
I say have a community like old-school GemstoneIII's. You've got perma-death but clerics can raise you and you also can get points, deeds, credits, or whatever else to gain a second life for your character if you do truely die and decay. In this case PvP, as I read from someone else's post, would be intense, however there would be few that would go around PKing newbies otherwise if someone else witnessed it and rivaled them in level then they would have a problem on their hands (unless of course they just made a lvl 1 character to go out and be an idiot and try to slay as many newbies as they could before they died). A RP aspect also contributes to lowering the amount of PK activity within games if the main story line is geared toward fighting traditional AI monsters. However, I did witness quite a few fights in GS3 and in fact died from one (not permanently), but it was usually if someone stole from another or angered another in some similar way.

"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain

  TMcC

Novice Member

Joined: 9/03/03
Posts: 223

2/10/04 3:37:00 PM#24

Originally posted by Anofalye

Any MMORPG that allow PK on anyone not working on PvP stuff should be banned, period.

 

If all you want is to solo in your little corner and become the best soloer, nobody should be able to PK you. :)

Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!


I was gonna post about this message but i dont even think i have to. You know i mean.

  horrid

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 129

2/10/04 7:03:26 PM#25

The problem I have found is you can NEVER make a panalty that would stop PKers doing it.  What they find fun in killing someone who never had a chance (otherwise its PvP and thats a different story).  You can throw them in prison, have perma death or whatever.  None mean anything to them.  They just load up another character on another account.  Perma death means nothing, it just turns it into a game of how many people can I perma kill before someone takes me out.  They would get an even bigger thrill knowing that the people they kill are perma dead.

While playing Shadowbane there was a group of pkers who would level as a group then go out ganking everyone, they got off over killing newbies.  The best you could ever do was grab a few friends and go get revenge, problem was they didn't care if you killed them back, they expected it.  The person ganked didn't enjoy it or find it fun, they could do nothing about it.  The penalty for the pker was 0.  It didn't add a fear element, its added an anger and frustration element. 

PKing is not PvP, its killing people who are not able to defend themselves, its a sad sorry ego boost at the expense of other people and thats just pathetic.  Real PvP can be great fun, ganking is only fun for the ganker.

Given the downsides don't discourage pkers (and in many cases does the opposite, they want the reputation) I think the solution is to remove the unable to defend yourself factor.  No levels, no killing monsters for xp.  The entire game is PvP, kill or be killed, you no longer have PKing, you only have PvP. 

 

 

  Entico

Novice Member

Joined: 12/27/03
Posts: 107

2/10/04 8:02:39 PM#26

I wish we could all get our own site going and try to make a go of "our" style of gameplay.

There is lots of "PK" sites on the net, realy easy to find them, I'm suprised you havent found one, obviously never tried to look for one.

Looks like syndrom of "Only gay in the village" to me.

==============================
And besides, like it or not, people do try to "win" massively multiplayer RPGs. The rules of engagement are something like this:
* If there is a status bar, make it grow bigger
* If there is a number, make it higher
* If it moves, either get a mission from it or kill it

==============================
And besides, like it or not, people do try to "win" massively multiplayer RPGs. The rules of engagement are something like this:
* If there is a status bar, make it grow bigger
* If there is a number, make it higher
* If it moves, either get a mission from it or kill it

  Dekron

Old School

Joined: 10/01/03
Posts: 9540

2/10/04 8:24:28 PM#27

Originally posted by TMcC
The best "pk situation" that I ever witnessed was old school UO. Pkers could attack anybody that was outside guarded towns and if they did kill the other player there was a free for all on looting. After 5 pks in a certain amount of time{40 hours with out another kill to put it in a short description} the players name became red and others could attack him on site without the chance of becoming grey or a criminal. What you commented on about the "may I attack you" bs is a joke and anybody that likes this game play isnt really a role player IMO. Look up Dragon Empires and Darkfall. Hopefully these games wont sell out like the other MMOS and have consensual pvp. They are promising that they arent going to......we'll have to wait and see. O and by the way Horizons sucks and so does WOW.

PS. When you die you should lose everything and when you are resurrected you should have one  hit point and therefore you should be able to be "rez killed" over and over again. But your actual skills should not be changed IMO.


I totally agree.  UO had the best pk system until they nerfed the hell out of it.  I loved the concept of the bounty board (well actually hated it since I was a dread lord with a 500k bounty on my head ).  All current mmorpgs should take a look back and use that as a primer to PvP.

--------------------------------------------

33.333333333333336% of me is a huge nerd! How about you?

  Dekron

Old School

Joined: 10/01/03
Posts: 9540

2/10/04 8:28:41 PM#28

Originally posted by horrid

The problem I have found is you can NEVER make a panalty that would stop PKers doing it.  What they find fun in killing someone who never had a chance (otherwise its PvP and thats a different story).  You can throw them in prison, have perma death or whatever.  None mean anything to them.  They just load up another character on another account.  Perma death means nothing, it just turns it into a game of how many people can I perma kill before someone takes me out.  They would get an even bigger thrill knowing that the people they kill are perma dead.

While playing Shadowbane there was a group of pkers who would level as a group then go out ganking everyone, they got off over killing newbies.  The best you could ever do was grab a few friends and go get revenge, problem was they didn't care if you killed them back, they expected it.  The person ganked didn't enjoy it or find it fun, they could do nothing about it.  The penalty for the pker was 0.  It didn't add a fear element, its added an anger and frustration element. 

PKing is not PvP, its killing people who are not able to defend themselves, its a sad sorry ego boost at the expense of other people and thats just pathetic.  Real PvP can be great fun, ganking is only fun for the ganker.

Given the downsides don't discourage pkers (and in many cases does the opposite, they want the reputation) I think the solution is to remove the unable to defend yourself factor.  No levels, no killing monsters for xp.  The entire game is PvP, kill or be killed, you no longer have PKing, you only have PvP. 

 

 


ganking if only fun when youre the one being ganked and you turn around and beat down the group that ganked you lol!  I remember in UO I had the incognito spell so my name was changed (and so I could go into town without being murdered by guards since I was dread lord) and then I got ganked by some low level adept archers.  It was soo fun cause I was a gm mage...just summoned a demon and it was over

--------------------------------------------

33.333333333333336% of me is a huge nerd! How about you?

  hercules

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/21/03
Posts: 4791

2/11/04 9:11:22 AM#29

Originally posted by Phil
Hello there! Im new to mmorpgs and havent played any,yet. Im a student studying computer games design and over the past week have been reading up on mmorpgs.
The area of PK's and the ppl they have killed is something which really caught my attention. Some of the solutions applied by some games are terrible! From one game where players had to ask,"may i kill/attack you?"(this one had me in stitches) too others where PK's were running riot due to there being no consequences for thier actions at all!
What about the player which has been killed, what should happen to them? Currently games allow the killed to re-appear with everything at a set point in the game-world. Their items, their stats and health all unchanged! Come on, they just died!
As i said im just getting to know mmorpgs and am looking for peoples opinion on this area from both avid players and anyone who has one.

Phil



Well if you are intrested to know about pvp then the solution is simple go play them!

There are many mmropg out there to try.

This post is basically another duplicate of like 10000000 posts on this site and many others.

So honestly I don't see what you expect to be different and from all the answers so far it been said loads of time yes even recently on this site more then once.

All you get from asking this is the same old pvp rocks ,pvp sucks post.

Smart folks know there are many many mmorpgs out there that offer diversity on the issue to pvp or not to pvp.And smart folks know that rather then sit on a board and demand all games are pvp based or pve based ,they can go find the game that suits them and actually have fun.

  Dash

Novice Member

Joined: 1/11/04
Posts: 25

"Wat er ook gebeurt, altijd blijven laggen"
(Whatever happens, always keep on laughing)

2/11/04 11:20:59 AM#30

Ah a future fellow student who will be studyting the same subject as i will. cool.

Anyway I agree the current Killing of other player rules are very much underdeveloped.

Some games you can steel a guys item of a tough creature they just killed from right under there nose and they cant do anything couse you dont accept a battle with him. (me being the thief but still)

There are games that are working consequences of being killed acording to the players level. The higher the players level the better items they could lost by being killed. that item will then be there for anyone to pick off his corpse. I think this is a good Idea since the new players when they die wont loose anything yet and as you become stronger, entering a battle with another player will have a higer stakes then before so it makes it more exiting. also it stops people from going on a random rampage and killing as many weaker charecters as they can couse the weaker charecters could join forces kill him and then he would actually loose somthing valuable instead of just coming back to life with everyting and start killing all the people all over again.

The fact that some games have or are making areas where your not aloud to pk is good. this gives a place where you dont have to worry about being slaughtered anytime soon.

Dash The Ryu

Dash The Ryu

  LrdHades

Novice Member

Joined: 2/11/04
Posts: 163

2/11/04 1:00:56 PM#31

Player Killing runs rampant in games because of:

A.
Its the fastest way to accumulate wealth, gain access to an exp spawn, or to prevent others from doing one or both of those two things.

Resource Accumulation / Resource Denial - basically

B.
There is no other interesting conflict/combat feature to the game that provides a suitable alternative.

People complain about being PK'd mainly because of resource loss, or time loss. Today's MMORPG's are time sinks whether you talk about travel time to destination, making something, gathering stuff, etc and the loss of that time by uncontrolled or random PK'ing frustrates a lot of people who don't have a lot of time to invest each day.

Over the years I've seen games try to control it one way or another, and usually they nerf it too bad or make it too much of the focus of the game while lessening other content.

About the only way to do it without killing a game is to make a PvP zone game, with real incentives to care about that PvP zone, and perhaps toss in some monthly updates that move the PvP zones around for variety.

Guildmaster
Lords of the Dead, LotD

  Novacain78

Novice Member

Joined: 2/03/04
Posts: 27

2/11/04 1:57:05 PM#32

I remember the first time i got pk'd in UO, by the time  i realised what was happening i was dead and looted.The items i lost upset me a bit but the fact that i always had to keep my attention fixed on the game in order to stay alive and not just set into some comatose lvling grind was more than worth the items i had looted from me.I think UO still had the best system ive seen for handling pkers, having their names glowing red made there lives a lot harder then they made everyone elses and having them easily identifiable allowed people to police the servers themselves.

Now having said all that in favour of pkers i dont think they should have free run of the servers, there should be pk free zones that allow people to play the game without it or at the very least lvl there characters in peace until they get to the lvl where they can defend themselves against the power gamming pkers. I also really liked Lrdhades idea of shifting pvp zones, variety is always a good thing.If a game isnt going to allow outright pking at anytime like the original UO they should at least provide a outlet for people who like pvp and gives them reason to want to participate in it, If daoc didnt have pvp it wouldnt have the replay value it does.I also had the misfortune of playing SWG they managed with their lame duals and and lack of a reason to fight ( ie..no terrotory to conquer or items to fight for) to turn a intergalactic battle into the most boring combat imaginable.

Hopefully 1 of the MMO's slated for release this year will find the right balance of pvp,pkers and just plain old roleplaying to finaly makea game with some replay potential!

  Sir-Sven

Novice Member

Joined: 8/07/03
Posts: 778

Stop gaming. Now.

2/11/04 2:23:12 PM#33

I agree- there should be places with in which no PK's are allowed. This way newbies can train themselves and gain status in skills. Then again- it was pretty easy for me to get skills when trammel never existed.

The thing is- if you're a newbie with PK's around you can't gain skill or kill monsters or even survive. The alternative is to have some people help you gain skills. This is how you can get to know other players and join guilds. I think without the PK zones, people interact more an socialize more. So- what I have to say about PK zones is: BOO!

Sir Sven


  TMcC

Novice Member

Joined: 9/03/03
Posts: 223

2/11/04 2:25:17 PM#34
Just mimic pre trammel UO plain and simple. Everything down to the bounty board and that loved statement...."i must consider my sins" god that ruled.

  Kriminal99

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/21/03
Posts: 378

2/11/04 4:22:03 PM#35

I think one of the main problems with pking is the developers willingness to cater to antipks.  If people would just accept that it is nessecary to the fun and believability of the game to allow random pking then they would simply adapt to it rather than go nuts over it.  Its not just the developers either, the problem almost always starts with volunteer gms.  By nature they look unfavorably towards pkers since they are "volunteers to help the community"  But since they have a air of officiality when they condemn pking they are teaching players to refuse to accept it as part of the game world - and thus have a fit when it happens even though its "not supposed to"

And then when games are ruined, have no endgame value, and are basically no different then a single player game all these new players that faced friction with pking simply leave out of boredom rather than realize or admit they were wrong.  And the people who previously adapted to the rough enviornment are robbed of their fun realistic game.  And players should be warned before entering such zones.

But beyond that pks should be limited from say forcing unfair fights like say a lvl 100 killing a lvl 5 and the lvl 5 doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell..  PVP should be made somewhat consensual by having zones in which people know they may be attacked in, but maybe want to go in to aquire certain resources etc. 

Anyways I think the only penalty pkers should face is whatever other real players are able to do. IE auto killing AI guards or unfair penalties should be removed and people who wish protection should organize in groups. 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5

  horrid

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 129

2/11/04 6:34:29 PM#36

Random PKing nessecary to the fun?  How so?  I played and had fun in EQ for 3 years, DAoC for 1 year, Anarchy online for a few months,  none had random pking and I had fun in all of them.  Now playing Horizons and its also fun (some of the time anyway).

Played Shadowbane for a few months, what drove me away was the random pking, the total distrust in every other player on the server.  It wasn't like every few days you might run into a pker, it was every time you formed a group you asked everyone you knew if any of the people joining the group were known pkers.  What fun about that?  Didn't make it believable for me that someone could kill me at random with no consequences.  Didn't make it believable for me that 50% of the population would kill you given the chance.  Made it pointless to log on.  If I was a pker I probably would have loved the game, but I'm not.  Fair PvP where both sides are ready for the fight is a challenge of skill, anything else is a waste of my time (even when I would be on the winning side).

Zones in the game are a good system, thats something I enjoyed about DAoC, I could enter PvP when I wanted to.  Not once was I pked in DAoC, a few times a high level stealther jumped me and killed me before I could react but that wasn't pking, I was in the PvP area looking for a fight.  Race wars, guild wars and similar systems are my prefered options.  Have no problems when a known enemy kills me regardless of how he does it.

An intersting system might be that you are requied to join a guild of a specific type, a rogues guild is able to steal, a pure evil guild and kill on site, good guilds may kill members of rogue and evil guilds.  All players have a visible indication of what guild they are in (maybe rogues can hide that they are rogues as a skill) so every player you see you know what to think about.  Games lacks enough detail to make any informed decisions about a player in a way that give you time to react.  In the real world when someone walks up to you you have time to take a look at them and decide if you might need to defend yourself, you lack these tools in game, they need to be replaced by an artificial system.  Running speed also needs to be toned down in most games, no one should be able to charge you from off screen in less time than it takes to target them, it someone is running directly at you in a world known to be full of pkers you should have enough time to turn and face them, get your weapon out and fight.

Kriminal99 once used "random punishment" to describe what happens in PvE when a monster you should be able to kill somehow managed to kill you.  I see PKing without one of the warnings above to be the same as random punishment, it drives many people away.

 

  heartless

Novice Member

Joined: 1/05/04
Posts: 5057

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. -Carl Sagan

2/11/04 7:37:21 PM#37

You know, that is the biggest argument that pro-PKs bring up when talking about free PKing: it's realistic, more believable, etc. However, they (pro-PKs) fail to take into account that since men developed from living in caves into civilized societies, there was always consequences to pay for murder. Yes, you can kill virtually anybody at any time but usually you'll be facing execution or incarseration or incarseration followed by execution as punishment. Unless you're OJ Simpson but that's another story altogether.

Now, the way I see it, if you're talking about making a game believable, then PKs should be punished for their actions. Otherwise it's stops being believable and becomes Quake.

As for whining about PvP and Pking, it's a two-way street. The PvP community in general is one of the most vocal communities in any game. They are always whining about balance issues, nerfs and all that other fun stuff. As the end result of their whining the game gets ruined for everyone, because once the developers nerf a skill or a class it not only effects all PvPers in the game, it also effects all PvEers in the game. Then of course the blame gets placed on carebears...

  horrid

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 129

2/11/04 7:49:13 PM#38

I agree with you heartless, 

maybe the system should be a perma death system.  If you PK someone you get flagged as a PKer, for a set amount of time if you are killed its perma death.  Make this the only way for perma death and one character per server.  You pk and die you restart from scratch.  That may be a big enough incentive to reduce the number of pkers.  Would also like to see it set so that if you are ganking low levels then town guards sent out to kill you.  If you kill people your own level or higher than you its up to players to take you out.  This should help reduce the kililng newbies who have no change of killing the pker in return.  Open PKing but the only person who can ever really be hurt by it is the pker, its a very high risk high return system rather than the no risk high return we see in most games.

 

 

  TMcC

Novice Member

Joined: 9/03/03
Posts: 223

2/12/04 10:24:20 AM#39
Dude thats a horrible idea...perma death if u get killed when ur flagged a pker. There would be no good pkers out there which would make pking boring. Even my best pkers died at some point after killing maybe as many as 40 players without gettin killed once. And u stated that you couldnt trust anybody in shadowbane...like we cafe who you trust in a game. I personally am very deceiving on my characters especially my theif. I would make my theives on UO have positive charisma up to glorious lord and have a guy trust me with his life and then Id rock him for everything he owned. So if you cant trust players just pve forever. I believe there should be rish but what you are stating is that theres almost no chance of coming out on top as a pker in the long run.

  Anofalye

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/03
Posts: 7442

The enemy is so dumb! They believe that WE are the enemy! - A famous orc commander.

2/12/04 10:40:36 AM#40

Originally posted by LrdHades

Player Killing runs rampant in games because of:

A.
Its the fastest way to accumulate wealth, gain access to an exp spawn, or to prevent others from doing one or both of those two things.

Resource Accumulation / Resource Denial - basically

B.
There is no other interesting conflict/combat feature to the game that provides a suitable alternative.

People complain about being PK'd mainly because of resource loss, or time loss. Today's MMORPG's are time sinks whether you talk about travel time to destination, making something, gathering stuff, etc and the loss of that time by uncontrolled or random PK'ing frustrates a lot of people who don't have a lot of time to invest each day.

Over the years I've seen games try to control it one way or another, and usually they nerf it too bad or make it too much of the focus of the game while lessening other content.

About the only way to do it without killing a game is to make a PvP zone game, with real incentives to care about that PvP zone, and perhaps toss in some monthly updates that move the PvP zones around for variety.

Guildmaster
Lords of the Dead, LotD


The incentive cannot have any non-PvP real edge, it need to be all PvP, if if have any non-PvP edge, you trivialise the non-PvP aspect of the game and make non-PvPers trivials in the same time.

- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''

- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - René Levesque about the denial NO on the poll to his dream, project and goal. (Free translation)

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