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Originally posted by evilastro
Where instances do serve a purpose however is to move forward a story or quest in which there really shouldnt be anyone else around. Say you have just accepted the quest to sneak into an enemy base and take out the leader.... it would be a bit dodgy if there were 15 other groups doing the same thing.

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Good point.

But this would work well with "my" approach too, I think - where the NPC will only let one person have the quest at any given time. It makes even better sense in this situation, since the one doing the hiring will not want to hire so many that they are bound to be discovered.

This could even be used to promote some degree of specialisation and significance to various players. Maybe you will need to have a reputation as a skilled and stealthy person before you get to have a go at this mission - through other missions. (Of course, stealth missions and fame don't combine all that well) Or the quest NPC might have a trial planned out that anybody may run, and the best contestant / next to finish, gets the mission. Anybody who get themselves involved in violence will never again get a quest from this NPC, because he can obviously not trust them.

Makes the setting realistic and still makes it meaningful. Furthermore, the details of the stealth mission are, of course, not released prior to assignment. Not every candidate will know where to go to ruin your day.

Maybe you could put a city under siege somewhere, open up for all players to join the army, and any member of the army gains points when a battle is won. Points that give your reputation as a warrior, which will open other missions to you.

Important: Those who want to fight a lot should choose battles, and enjoy the fights. It may be a grind, but if it is fun then it will be worth it.

Optional: Maybe there is the possibility of losing the city, in which case the army will engage in the even more daunting task of winning it back, and intercepting any supplies directed to the now besieged enemies. (Now you're laying the siege)

Of course, if you start bashing friends you're everybody's enemy at once, and that will get you booted, killed and labelled traitor, so its going to hurt your reputation (available to every NPC and player).

The wizard in the tower might give you different quests based on what you are known to excel in. If you're good with foraging and herbs he might start you off on finding some, and in return teach you some uses for it - wham, you're now a provider of healing potions / speed potions, whatever!

The game should be designed so that you may pursue more than one path, but maybe so that advancing your reputation in one area will slightly reduce your reputation for other traits, encouraging specialisation.

There are so many post here I breezed threw about 60 or so. So apologies if this has been mentioned.

My personally believe being in the industry since it's humble birth, is instancing as many have stated, have a purpose if used correctly. With the following  example, you will see what I mean.

DDO perfect game to talk about instancing. Most who are PnP and MMO gamers have one thing in common, they are looking for adventure with other people. So let's again look at DDO, a game completely using instancing...

DDO concepts are fantastic, emphasis on in depth adventure with meaning and need of team work. This is what instancing is and should be in any game. However...

Instancing should be limited, let me take most of the PnP players back to the old game for a moment and those not familiar just follow along, you will understand. Ok, you start you roll up a character, give him/her stats and background, thinking how will you represent yourself to your fellow gamers. Then everyone meets up and the DM tells you about this vast world that you will be in. From the description, he tells you of towns and cities, history, stories then introduces you to your local current setting. Usually you start off in a local town with a pub. In this, each character (player) meets the other by role playing their part. While this can be done in an instance such as DDO , let me continue. You finally meet up with a gent looking for some help from some usually terrible tragedy. Help save someone , help defend something etc etc.

You then do your shopping and preparation then you and the party start on your journey. The journey is what makes an MMO an MMO. From the paths you take to the people you meet, wondering to a Tower or a dungeon is part of the adventure. Would you not want to say , in a game like DDO. Be introduced to such quest, but actually have to work your way to get there? No MMO does this to this day. Think of it, what MMO has the ability to give you a quest and along the way things happen to you? Sure you could put this in an instant like they do in Guild Wars but why? When even such events accurse, other elements not perceived (such as other players) get involved even furthering that event?

Sure many games such as EQ, DAOC etc have traveling were you can be attacked by random mobs , but take their RVR zone (realm vs realm like pvp). In this, not only do you have mobs to deal with , but players random ability to show up out of the blue and make your day allot harder. For those that will argue, "I don't like pvp" there is the non-pvp interaction as well. When a passer by saves your life (had that happen many times in eq) and all sorts or random interaction that you don't get in instances or as I would like to name them now "single player games". How can I call it this? because any game out there in the single player type of play usually have a mutliplayer aspect, in this players can get on a chat server and join up to play a round of whatever game they have installed. Up to usually 8 players unless connected to FPS such as Battlefield series, but we are not talking about FFS here.

What I would like to see, is a game that gives a group a quest and in this quest say it's in the far reaches of a certain place. During their travels , scripts activate to have "surprise attacks" or "random npcs" who help you on your journey. While in your open travels, you can converse and interact with other players who are not in your group, but still can react with you and you with them. After we reach our destination (dungeon, area, home what have you) our actual quest begins. This quest can be instanced or open. The difference is, it should be based off the quest and not the mechanics of the game. What do I mean?

If the quest say is "kill this guy" well since quest are repeatable by many, it shouldn't be a quest were I the player not doing said quest can see this mob. There for this quest should be instance. If the quest is "save so and so" then this could be a open quest, meaning no instance because all your doing is saving someone. Seeing this character being saved at the same location again can be just summed up to stupidity of that character. So basically, whatever we effect in the game world that would have a perm effect should be instance, while others "find this" "save that" could be in the open world were anyone could show up there.

Instancing should make since and not be used for the ease of development. It should be used to enhance the online experience not make it a single player game.

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Originally posted by chaintm
There are so many post here I breezed threw about 60 or so. So apologies if this has been mentioned.

My personally believe being in the industry since it's humble birth, is instancing as many have stated, have a purpose if used correctly. With the following example, you will see what I mean.
DDO perfect game to talk about instancing. Most who are PnP and MMO gamers have one thing in common, they are looking for adventure with other people. So let's again look at DDO, a game completely using instancing...
DDO concepts are fantastic, emphasis on in depth adventure with meaning and need of team work. This is what instancing is and should be in any game. However...
Instancing should be limited, let me take most of the PnP players back to the old game for a moment and those not familiar just follow along, you will understand. Ok, you start you roll up a character, give him/her stats and background, thinking how will you represent yourself to your fellow gamers. Then everyone meets up and the DM tells you about this vast world that you will be in. From the description, he tells you of towns and cities, history, stories then introduces you to your local current setting. Usually you start off in a local town with a pub. In this, each character (player) meets the other by role playing their part. While this can be done in an instance such as DDO , let me continue. You finally meet up with a gent looking for some help from some usually terrible tragedy. Help save someone , help defend something etc etc.
You then do your shopping and preparation then you and the party start on your journey. The journey is what makes an MMO an MMO. From the paths you take to the people you meet, wondering to a Tower or a dungeon is part of the adventure. Would you not want to say , in a game like DDO. Be introduced to such quest, but actually have to work your way to get there? No MMO does this to this day. Think of it, what MMO has the ability to give you a quest and along the way things happen to you? Sure you could put this in an instant like they do in Guild Wars but why? When even such events accurse, other elements not perceived (such as other players) get involved even furthering that event?
Sure many games such as EQ, DAOC etc have traveling were you can be attacked by random mobs , but take their RVR zone (realm vs realm like pvp). In this, not only do you have mobs to deal with , but players random ability to show up out of the blue and make your day allot harder. For those that will argue, "I don't like pvp" there is the non-pvp interaction as well. When a passer by saves your life (had that happen many times in eq) and all sorts or random interaction that you don't get in instances or as I would like to name them now "single player games". How can I call it this? because any game out there in the single player type of play usually have a mutliplayer aspect, in this players can get on a chat server and join up to play a round of whatever game they have installed. Up to usually 8 players unless connected to FPS such as Battlefield series, but we are not talking about FFS here.
What I would like to see, is a game that gives a group a quest and in this quest say it's in the far reaches of a certain place. During their travels , scripts activate to have "surprise attacks" or "random npcs" who help you on your journey. While in your open travels, you can converse and interact with other players who are not in your group, but still can react with you and you with them. After we reach our destination (dungeon, area, home what have you) our actual quest begins. This quest can be instanced or open. The difference is, it should be based off the quest and not the mechanics of the game. What do I mean?
If the quest say is "kill this guy" well since quest are repeatable by many, it shouldn't be a quest were I the player not doing said quest can see this mob. There for this quest should be instance. If the quest is "save so and so" then this could be a open quest, meaning no instance because all your doing is saving someone. Seeing this character being saved at the same location again can be just summed up to stupidity of that character. So basically, whatever we effect in the game world that would have a perm effect should be instance, while others "find this" "save that" could be in the open world were anyone could show up there.
Instancing should make since and not be used for the ease of development. It should be used to enhance the online experience not make it a single player game.

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Well put...thats all I gotta say...lol.

Garret is an idiot.  From his comments her has limited mmorph time in and it looks like only 2 games.  Instancing is fundement in a mmorph.

All he did was state the same argument over and over, it was week.  I too am tired of fight to the end of a cave only to wait in line to fight the last spawn.

Or to wait in line and then have some one gank you kill.  It does turn into a child fest of insults.  Obviously Garret limit experience has saved himself from that.

Instinsting rules and is needed!

I believe that instancing brings a controlled and scripted enviroment that developers can take advantage of the lore that's available for them.

It also creates a controlled measure to bring challenge to the game.  For example, the gate event for Blackwing Lair is quite tough and requires immense cooperation and execution to overcome, but if it was opened to 1000 players, they could breeze through the place and there would be no challenge.

And I reaffirm the boss mob stealing that open dungeons have.  Even the World Boss mobs in WoW are being camped and stolen unfairly.

If you aren't willing to be a part of a 40man team or guild, work for your items, and not expect to get everything that drops (casual players expect to get everything), you aren't entitled to high level equipment.  We should be helping our realm/faction?  Sure, we could tell them hints to overcome raid bosses and it doesn't take a genius to put up a raid schedule for their 40+ man guilds.  But we're not going to let selfish people take whatever they want and make us their slaves.

 I feel that this is a great thing for quwests. No wiating around twiddling your thumbs waiting for everything to repop just to finish a small quest that 50 other people are waiting for.

Some of us actually try to complete as many quests as we are able to. Just waiting around is a waste of game time.

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Originally posted by yyrkoon_80

Garret is an idiot.  From his comments her has limited mmorph time in and it looks like only 2 games.  Instancing is fundement in a mmorph.

All he did was state the same argument over and over, it was week.  I too am tired of fight to the end of a cave only to wait in line to fight the last spawn.

Or to wait in line and then have some one gank you kill.  It does turn into a child fest of insults.  Obviously Garret limit experience has saved himself from that.

Instinsting rules and is needed!

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Limited?  This is the guy you should listen to.  He played Ultima Online, the first true MMORPG which every new MMOPRG tries to live up to.  Honestly, its a huge plus to have comments from someone who played UO in the late 90's.  Vast knowledge there.

Instancing is not fundamental to a MMORPG, its fundamental to a RPG like Neverwinter Nights where you have a group a friends trying to complete a module.  Like I stated above, maybe a little instancing is ok, mixed in.  But the majority of a MMOPRG should be free reign.  Thats what makes them so ... well multiplayer. 

Hello all

Ok I have played 3 mmorpg online WoW, FFXI and EQ2. Now WoW just has so much lag on ever sever everyone yell about it all the time. EQ 2 and FFXI almost never lag's. This is because of there zoned area. WoW a open game you never zone. So I think WoW just sucks big time. And I can't see why so many people like it.

So on the posting part. Little server maybe best or just have zone area's. If you are lagging in the game or keep getting kick off line. Then the game not really that much fun. I like it more to zone and wait 2 sec then to lag all the time on a server. And yes WoW very big has allot people on it. But wait for a good game come out. And I Think you will be seen allot people quit very fast. I think people are just waiting for a good game to come out.

And if you are new to online games. This is about the only game that lag's. so do not give up. There are allot mmorpg online the has no lag at all 2 big one's are FFXI and EQ 2

Now for Dungeons & dragons I hope it a good game. It been around for very long time and it a good game but the way people keep talking about it. make's me question the people who are making it. It dose not look good at all But just because of the name i will try it.  If not you will see me in RF online It looks like they know what hay are doing. 

Good luck all and happy game playing

I tend to agree with Garret dungeons aren't like they once were back in UO fun, dangerous, and exciting!! Everything has been so dummied down since UO and it's sad there's no  real adrenaline rush like there used to be. Here's a little list of things they've dummied down since UO.

1) Class based instead of Skill based

2) Death means little to nothing anymore

3) Dungeons have become stale, static, predictable, and no longer includes 3rd party interaction or interferance.

4) Shiny new loot has taken precedance and replaced the overall gameplay instead.

5) Games have became faction based and force you to choose sides no longer is it a option to be blue, grey, red, green, or orange. It's been limited to A vs B take your pick and if you have 2 friends that each play a different factions your forced to pick and choose between them.

6) Players can run infinately with out getting fatigued.

7) No longer when you run through another person or mob are you fatigued you can now seemly mend time and space and defiy the laws of physics alltogether. Thanks EQ for making it a problem and good job WoW for simply cloning EQ's screw ups and just trying to improve upon them. The fact is your solution is still screwed up.

8) Crafting has gone from a highly sought after aspect and economical aspect to mmo's to something of no real relivence and just something that sits on the back burner instead.

9) Travel changed from fast paced and group friendly point to point travel to some sort of indy 500 race to get from point A to point B. What do you expect tho with games with no real backbones behind them they need to slow down the pace of things as much as possible because the content they have is weak and they know it. Let's face it Molten Core and other high end dungeons aren't really all that difficult the hardest part is setting a time and getting enough players of the right class's together to rush/creep through the place.

10) PvP has changed from unpredicatble and never knowing what to expect and when to rock, paper , or siccors. What will they think up next rolling dice...oh wait nm that's how they determine loot.

11) Karma and Fame has change to honor and reputation grinding for items rather than a status thing and the only worries with them now are killing the wrong npc's. It used to be much more of a point system unlike the honor system which is purely about who plays in there little daycare centers aka the battlegrounds the most. Reputation system is basically along the same lines as well.

I'd think of more things but I'm tired and just don't feel like it but maybe ill edit it later and add to it.

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Originally posted by Jade6

Well it's not like anyone is going to read this far, but I will add my opinion anyway.

The bottom line is that those who ask for "open worlds" are not doing it for anything as noble as "the community", all they want is more opportunities to gank people. For them "community" equals "more opportunities to pray on others". Sadly, the fact still remains that the more PvP there is, the less of a community there is. This has proven absolutely true in every online game ever made.

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I think you may have hit the nail on the head here.

DAoC is a prime example:  listening in (watching in?) on the chat screens usually has tons of things about Keeps or Watchtowers being taken; help needed at such and such  BG; etc.

Wander around the realms outside the BG's, and most of the time, there isn't anyone to be found.  Why?  Because it seems everyone is in the PvP (RvR) zones.

RvR is good, don't get me wrong.  I know people who are killers (pun intended!) at that sort of thing.  But there are others who just don't do well in that sort of situation.  Now those people can choose to do one of several things:

1.  Craft

2.  Chat

3.  PvE soloing at different areas, alone

4.  Instancing

Number 3 is fun, you can pretty much see any mobs near you and have a good time.  Especially if you know you only need 3 blues or 1 yellow to ding.

Number 4 is better, because in an instance dungeon, at least on DAoC, you can step around a corner and get whammed, not even see it coming.  I've actually let out shocked yelps that have gotten the attention of my husband (and my startled cats!) when that has happened.  No preparation, no 'pulling' one creature at the time, just total melee from the onset. 

The *layouts* of the instances may be the same, but the content varies upon the task assigned, and that makes it fun....you never know what you're going to run into.  Makes the game interesting, and challenging.

Originally posted by Wolfpack75

  The instances on DAoC are like that.

For every 10 levels, you have to go to a different location of the world, and talk to a different Taskmaster to get your instance task.  And each task is different as well.  One might be to kill the named mob boss; another might be to kill 9 of a certain creature; another might be to clear the instance completely.

AND, you can do this alone or with friends.

Its not always the same thing, and you never know what you're going to get.

It should be a challange just to walk around in the game world, the entire game world of WoW, apart from maybe 10% of it, is geared towards leveling your character. The other 10% is for when you are level 60 and you hardly ever return to those areas afterwards. No wonder so many people enjoy leveling characters as oppose to playing the end game "content", it's the only time you get to feel part of the world. The instances do not feel part of this world and playing in them neither do you. The quest chains are not well enough written into the game and the stories are weak and shallow and do not justify the instance in any way at all.

BGs is the worst offender of all instance types. It removes PvP from the real world and all excitement is gone from the game. All the PvPers that make an MMO special and unique for each realm has turned into a leader board worthy of an arcade game. If I met Gork or Sheepdog on Europa shard back in the good ol' days I would have deficated in my pants and then died. Do the same on WoW and you will probably wave because you are just about to go into MC and are far too busy to take down the best player on the server (or in WoW's case, the one with most time and a priest sidekick). Failing that you can always just join the BGs queue, wonderful invention! You get to join a virtual queue! Fantastic!

Developers have got to stop treating gamers like spoilt children and give games some realism. mmoRPG, yes "RPG", it is a roleplaying game and in order for it to be a roleplaying game it has to have relations to real life. In life good things happen and they feel good becuase they are balanced against the bad. Basically you could never have a good day if you didn't have the other side of the coin. This should be no different in virtual worlds and I want see some god damned developers realise this and start thinking about the possiblities. Remember bad things happen in games all the time, you can still make these bad things fun and intresting or may be motivating. In life you do not get instances so please stop insulting our intelligence and do away with them.

Instances are just developers way of segregating the population into nice eaily pleasable groups. It adds nothing to an MMORPG you might as well just allow everyone to run p2p instances and list them through gamespy then havew a ladder of who is best.

Thania

instancing sucks, consensual PvP sucks

Is there a nice mob that give a nice loot. I gather party, head there, kill everything in the way, including others there that might be attempting to get it. And that's it. Good gear belongs to the one that can get IT, and hold to IT (avoid beeing killed for it). What's that bs about standing in lines or other things.

If I die in the process, then perhaps I was not worthy enough to have such a good item, PERIOD.

I tried WOW, didn't appeal to me, And the question would be ... Is it there a game that has a thing like I mentioned before ? I really don't have the finances to test all the mmorpgs out there.

Peace, over & out.

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Originally posted by Jade6
Well it's not like anyone is going to read this far, but I will add my opinion anyway.
The bottom line is that those who ask for "open worlds" are not doing it for anything as noble as "the community", all they want is more opportunities to gank people. For them "community" equals "more opportunities to pray on others". Sadly, the fact still remains that the more PvP there is, the less of a community there is. This has proven absolutely true in every online game ever made.

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I would disagree with you here fairly strongly. Lets take WoW as it is a prime example of the negative effects of instances.

When the game first started I grouped with so many random people every day that I met out in the game world. There was loads of real world PvP and our guild members would gladly aid anyone if meant a bit of a guild v guild battle. I remember thinking this is exactly the way it should be. Then you hit 60 and most level 60 are either ganking or doing MC for the first times with there guilds. At this point the games was at it's best the battles in Tarren Mill every night were so much fun and you began to really get to know who the strong and weak were on your server and you felt that even though there was nothing at stake that you really wanted to win the battle.

Then BGs came along...

Now the guildies who protected us are earning honor for the Defilers and are too busy for real world PvP. The noobs in the guild have to level up without help as we are all in instances trying to get decent items to PvP better. We no longer care about the battle as "i'll get honor anyway" and the fear and excitment of anything happening out of you control is gone.

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Originally posted by Chimmi
instancing sucks, consensual PvP sucks

Is there a nice mob that give a nice loot. I gather party, head there, kill everything in the way, including others there that might be attempting to get it. And that's it. Good gear belongs to the one that can get IT, and hold to IT (avoid beeing killed for it). What's that bs about standing in lines or other things.

If I die in the process, then perhaps I was not worthy enough to have such a good item, PERIOD.

I tried WOW, didn't appeal to me, And the question would be ... Is it there a game that has a thing like I mentioned before ? I really don't have the finances to test all the mmorpgs out there.

Peace, over & out.

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SWG had this but it also suffered huge problems along side and because of it.

The major problem they had was that the server reset would bring about the 1 and only spawn of certain boss/mobs. This meant that the major guilds would ensure they woke and logged on at exactly server start and killed all the bosses before anyone else would log on. This was abviously flawed.

It is no excuse for introducing instances as the answer though. How about make them random and you have spend the day hunting them down or a hunter could try tracking it or something then the guild can prepare and intercept. Anything but instances, please! Over and over and over and over and over and over...

Thania

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Originally posted by duckncover

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Originally posted by Chimmi
instancing sucks, consensual PvP sucks

Is there a nice mob that give a nice loot. I gather party, head there, kill everything in the way, including others there that might be attempting to get it. And that's it. Good gear belongs to the one that can get IT, and hold to IT (avoid beeing killed for it). What's that bs about standing in lines or other things.

If I die in the process, then perhaps I was not worthy enough to have such a good item, PERIOD.

I tried WOW, didn't appeal to me, And the question would be ... Is it there a game that has a thing like I mentioned before ? I really don't have the finances to test all the mmorpgs out there.

Peace, over & out.

---

SWG had this but it also suffered huge problems along side and because of it.

The major problem they had was that the server reset would bring about the 1 and only spawn of certain boss/mobs. This meant that the major guilds would ensure they woke and logged on at exactly server start and killed all the bosses before anyone else would log on. This was abviously flawed.

It is no excuse for introducing instances as the answer though. How about make them random and you have spend the day hunting them down or a hunter could try tracking it or something then the guild can prepare and intercept. Anything but instances, please! Over and over and over and over and over and over...

Thania

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hmm odd, that's easy to overcome. make the boss spawn at random times, People will stand around and kill eachother waiting for it. However, without a death penalty to PVP this is a bit pointless.

Instances, properly done, would mean that you hadn't noticed that you were in one. Likewise others shouldn't be able to notice you're in one either.

Immersion should be the key for MMO's otherwise we could all be playing PnP rpgs or teh consol games of our choice. If I want the classic DnD experience I'll gather my gaming buddies together and we'll go on a dungeon hack; it's prefered to sitting going pale in front of our computers. I doubt I'll be playing DDO.

Instancing, as has already been said, is to MMOs as the module was to old school DnD. While I have fond memories of the DM turning up for the game with a nasty gleam in his eyes and a shiny new adventure, fresh from the store yet already sporting a hundred weight of bookmarks, grasped tightly in his fist. We all gathered our character sheets together with apphrehension knowning that hit points were going to be spilled... glory days but not what I play MMOs for. I mean if I want to have that experience online I'd play NWN.

MMORPG's are currently stuck where first generation PnP RPG's were twenty years ago. Unless the industry is seriously challenged we'll continue to go nowhere fast.

I'm pro instances and contra PvP.

The problem is that the contra instance faction thinks instances change the community. Features like instances can have that effect, but every other feature too.
When instances hurt the community why was it so easy to find a group in Guild Wars. Why so difficult in DAOC.

Instances are the means to make a world immersive, to bring more atmosphere for groups. If i get a quest to kill a villian, how interesting is it to get through the dungeon without a kill and to wait in line with 30 others to make the kill.

In contrast one big world. You wander the sandy wastes of tatoine and can't see a grain of sand because of all the factories. One big world is less persistent that instancing when everything respawn and nothing ever realy changes. The only persistent thing is the charakter and his inventory.

While i see the arguments that say instances keep players from contact with the community why where my best interaction with other players in instances?

I think the difference is the world mechanic. I think you can make an mmorp with only instancing that is far more persisten an has a better community than an mmorpg with an open world.

Looking at the existing MMORPGs you can see that the difference lies in motivation. There are boring MMORPGs that lack features and things to do, but they attrackt a good community. Because of the lack of goals the players use the community to generate new goals and atmosphere.

If you take instances and make them the only goal for a high lvl character you will get no real community but a guild oriented community. Modern MMORPGs try to motivate the players and guide them to different ways to improve their charakters. Most of them miss real goals that further the community.

So i think not instancing is the problem but the goals and motivations. If you have to many goals and motivations that are contra community then you will end with a weak community.