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Dark Age of Camelot

Dark Age of Camelot 

Round Table Pub (General)  » DAOC FAQ 1.5 (w/ updated ToA info)

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55 posts found
  User Deleted
2/10/06 9:59:28 AM#21

Originally posted by JulianDracos

I edited the crafting answer. Still not sure it is as nice of an answer you would want, but I made it less harsh. You are correct in that EQ does have a worst crafting system :) Not sure of any others thought. At least in DAOC your items are really good items once they have been spellcrafted.

Nice to hear you do sleep. I guess that is a good thing about marriage, your spouse makes sure you take care of yourself.


Games that have worse crafting systems, just off the top of my head (Some newer, some older):

  1. EQ
  2. AC1
  3. FFXI
  4. Lineage II
  5. WoW
  6. Lineage I

It's far from the worst.  And on par with several out there.  And it's one of the few that is workable and crafters make items that are highly desireable.  EQ2 has a better crafting system but the market for most of the goods is pathetic. 

  Tyget

Novice Member

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 4

2/10/06 10:52:44 AM#22

Boy ... I wish my head was more sponge-like instead of dead space ( hehehe ) there is alot to learn. I'm sure it helps playing other mmorpg before, least you have some idea whats going on when you start game play.

With the crafting issues, does that mean most items such as armor, weapons and spells are not in a large part crafted by players? just purchase from a broker of some sort?

  User Deleted
2/10/06 11:26:28 AM#23

Originally posted by Tyget

Boy ... I wish my head was more sponge-like instead of dead space ( hehehe ) there is alot to learn. I'm sure it helps playing other mmorpg before, least you have some idea whats going on when you start game play.

With the crafting issues, does that mean most items such as armor, weapons and spells are not in a large part crafted by players? just purchase from a broker of some sort?


Ignore the crafting part.  :)  It's highly inaccurate due to the fact that the writer doesn't like the crafting system.  The best items in the games asside from epic and artifact gear are made by players. 

A more accurate statement about crafting would be:

Crafting in DAOC can be very boring but it is a very lucrative and profitable business for players if you take the time and invest the resources to become a top notch crafter.  Asside from some epic items and artifacts the best equipment in the game is made by crafters.  Master Crafters make a tidy profit on the items they create for other players across all the servers but the Classic servers, due to the lack of TOA content, are more profitable, by far, than the others.

DAOC's crafting system is very costly to learn, as such new players would be best advized to either wait till they have the resources to fund their crafting properly or join a guild that will subsidize them until their skill is high enough to be profitable.

  JulianDracos

Novice Member

Joined: 5/24/04
Posts: 1529

 
OP  2/10/06 12:01:38 PM#24

No offense El, but my statements are true. Dismissing a comment because of the attitidue of the author is fallacious reasoing. If you dispute the truth of the statements then specify what is incorrect and provide evidnce that those statements are false. I currently have armorcrafter at 1165, Fletcher at 560, Tailor at 1165, Spellcrafter 1011, Alchemists 1072, and a weaponcrafter at 200ish. So since I have tried most crafts and now have most of them at LGM status I would say that I have enough experience with crafters to have a good view of how things works.

You can argue over if it is "boring" or not, yet the profitablity of crafters is a huge issue. If you wish to dispute this I can waste countless hours posting threads from 2+ years ago to current about crafting issues. Those issues are usually fall into three categories - boredom, MP quality issues, and lack of profitablity.


1. crafted gear is worthless unless it has been enchanted. You are better off with droped gear

2. the current spellcrafting system makes it so that MP is what most players will want. You will have a few who will settle for 99%. Ironically I can craft almost anything that I want and I settle for 99% instead of MP most of the time.

3. there are a huge amount of crafters in this game. There are so many in fact that most crafters other than spellcrafters and alchemists will find it impossible to make a profit from crafting. Mundane crafters make profit by salvaging.

4. low level crafted gear is not worth the time to make so it is extremely hard to find unless you are friends with a crafter or your guild helps you out

Perhaps the Classic servers are so new that there are not too many crafters at the moment. I know that without ToA on those servers then Crafted gear is the best for those servers. Even on the regular servers spellcrafters are in huge demand for only a few pieces. Yet, because of the huge time involved, and how the crafting system is hooked up, people will find it difficult to find a spellcrafter. I think everytime I have logged on for more than 2 hours, someone in /as asks for a spellcrafter and then states how they have been waiting for 4 months to get a piece done and still no spellcrafter.

Yet, on the regular servers, crafted gear is regulated to only a few pieces. ToA bonuses can up your stat cap, they can increase casting range, they can decrease your casting time, and when you get to artifacts they have even more powerful effects that cannot be placed on by spellcrafting.

So for new players, yes you can make all of your armor and weapons. You can also have them enchanted with powerful magic. If you play on the Classic servers then these player made items will be the best you will find. If you play on any of the other servers then you will have the afore mentioned problems.

  User Deleted
2/10/06 12:52:15 PM#25

Originally posted by JulianDracos

No offense El, but my statements are true. Dismissing a comment because of the attitidue of the author is fallacious reasoing. If you dispute the truth of the statements then specify what is incorrect and provide evidnce that those statements are false. I currently have armorcrafter at 1165, Fletcher at 560, Tailor at 1165, Spellcrafter 1011, Alchemists 1072, and a weaponcrafter at 200ish. So since I have tried most crafts and now have most of them at LGM status I would say that I have enough experience with crafters to have a good view of how things works.

You can argue over if it is "boring" or not, yet the profitablity of crafters is a huge issue. If you wish to dispute this I can waste countless hours posting threads from 2+ years ago to current about crafting issues. Those issues are usually fall into three categories - boredom, MP quality issues, and lack of profitablity.


1. crafted gear is worthless unless it has been enchanted. You are better off with droped gear

2. the current spellcrafting system makes it so that MP is what most players will want. You will have a few who will settle for 99%. Ironically I can craft almost anything that I want and I settle for 99% instead of MP most of the time.

3. there are a huge amount of crafters in this game. There are so many in fact that most crafters other than spellcrafters and alchemists will find it impossible to make a profit from crafting. Mundane crafters make profit by salvaging.

4. low level crafted gear is not worth the time to make so it is extremely hard to find unless you are friends with a crafter or your guild helps you out

Perhaps the Classic servers are so new that there are not too many crafters at the moment. I know that without ToA on those servers then Crafted gear is the best for those servers. Even on the regular servers spellcrafters are in huge demand for only a few pieces. Yet, because of the huge time involved, and how the crafting system is hooked up, people will find it difficult to find a spellcrafter. I think everytime I have logged on for more than 2 hours, someone in /as asks for a spellcrafter and then states how they have been waiting for 4 months to get a piece done and still no spellcrafter.

Yet, on the regular servers, crafted gear is regulated to only a few pieces. ToA bonuses can up your stat cap, they can increase casting range, they can decrease your casting time, and when you get to artifacts they have even more powerful effects that cannot be placed on by spellcrafting.

So for new players, yes you can make all of your armor and weapons. You can also have them enchanted with powerful magic. If you play on the Classic servers then these player made items will be the best you will find. If you play on any of the other servers then you will have the afore mentioned problems.


That's cool Julian.  I can't speak to the 'normal' server crafters as I no longer play on one, and haven't since long before TOA came out.  But on classic servers it's like the game is new again.  Not many LGM anythings and crafters do make a hefty profit because PM gear is *the* best in the game, bar none.  It's better even than the epic gear. 

My point was that crafting is viable and profitable not a 'waste of time'.  Especially on the classics.  Even on the 'normal' servers the crafters I know, at least on igraine and iseult, state that crafting IS profitable, it's just 'boring'.  Which I clearly stated that it *is* boring.  I've got a fletcher, armor crafter, weaponsmith, tailor and a spellcrafter on Iseult.  I don't *enjoy* crafting but it did cut me a profit when I did it. 

And I fail to see how players wanting MP items (MP is MasterPiece, by the way 100% quality, for new players) is a problem.  I *always* charged them 10% over total costs so I *always* cut a profit.  And the profit goes up with every 99% piece I have to waste because they demand MP.  If you AREN'T charging extra for MP gear then you're only hurting yourself.  If someone wants MP gear then they should understand that it's going to cost significantly more unless they plan to provide the resources to get it.

Lastly:  I don't understand your logic that crafting isn't profitable because there are too many crafters.  How is this true when you go on to say that people wait months to get things spellcrafted?  That tells me that there is a dire need for spellcrafters on your server and if someone made one they could clean up if they wanted to.  If someone is waiting 4 months to get something spellcrafted then they OBVIOUSLY aren't using the server forums to find a spellcrafter.  That or the server doesn't have enough spell crafters and they should be raking people over the coals, price wise, for their services.  Heck, if I were on a server where the average player waited 4 months to get something SC'd as a spellcrafter I'd be charging 25% over costs for any non-guildie who wanted something done.  I'd be one RICH spell crafter.

MMMM which server is that again?  Maybe I'll do a plat transfer and make a char there and ramp upa  sc'er just to make a fortune with ;)

  JulianDracos

Novice Member

Joined: 5/24/04
Posts: 1529

 
OP  2/10/06 8:11:27 PM#26

I should rephrase that - mundane crafters have a difficult time making a profit ont he regular servers.

If you are willing to invest 12p on getting 1001 in Spellcrafting and you are willing to do overcharge orders then you can make a profit. Alchemists can also make a profit but the upper levels become very expensive on making procs over and over.

Classic servers I saw profit potential. I was over there crafting for awhile when it came out thinking of how much plat I could make. Then I saw so many other people with the same idea and then I decided it wasn't worth it. I guess that many of those never made it to LGM.

The issue with MP is when it takes so many remakes sometimes then it can be hard to make a profit and a profit that is worth your time. Often people will want a fixed cost. If the mateiral cost is 1p at 10% above that you only make 100 gp.

25% over cost as a spellcrafter (at least on the regular servers) would be the cheapest you will find. If for some reason I feel sorry enough to do a spellcraft order you will pay through the nose (and given what people tell me I am the cheapest on the server). I just pulled up an old Ranger set. I have no idea how long ago this way, but the material cost estimates 627gp for the cost. It is a 5pt OC on every piece. I charged this person 2 plat. I charge about 50% less than other people, given what people say. If I do 5 or more pieces I make 800 g - 1.5 profit off of it. I often get tipped another plat or two on top of that.

I will even go on to suggest that many crafters have stoped crafting or quit the game. Also the small population on the regular servers have helped make things easier. Yet, outside of spellcrafting, your time is better spent in ToA farming instead of crafting.

  Yeebo

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/05
Posts: 1360

2/10/06 8:22:46 PM#27

Maybe if you just seperate out the items that are your opinion, and put them at the bottom with a disclaimer. I personally agree with some of your opinions, but it is a bit misleeding to have them mixed in with facts about the game. For example, on the crafting debate I personally feel that DAoC has a pretty Okie dokie crafting system. Not the best, but far from the worst you can find. At least it's possible to get crafted gear with whatever stats you feel like. That's amore than I can say about most games.

On the other hand, I couldn't agree more about ToA, it's pretty much the devil to me personally (abandoned a bunch of chracters on old servers when I started playing again). But I also see that many players think raids are awesome, and like having gear that gives them a huge PvP advantage as proof that they are a giant studly raider with more spare time than a prison inmate.

I think the FAQ would be a much better resource if you just make it easy for a new player to discern which items are your opinion. Cheers!

I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.

  JulianDracos

Novice Member

Joined: 5/24/04
Posts: 1529

 
OP  2/11/06 1:59:09 AM#28

I guess it is that what people object to I do not see as opinion.  If I were to state that you should go play in Hib and not another realm then that would be opinion.  Lets look at ToA.  People want to know why three servers do not have an entire expansion!  What I wrote covered the basic reasons why many people were upset with that expansion:

ToA stands for Trials of Atlantis. It was DAOC 2nd paid expansion. The expansion adds in great looking zones, mobs that drop lots of coins, new quests, 10 "Master Levels" and extremely powerful items called artifacts. ToA, when launched, was confusing and most of what you had to do was Raid content. ToA is wrongly blamed for many things and rightly for some things. What ToA did was bring out the difference between many groups of players and polarized the DAOC community. For example, it brought about a noticeable difference between more casual players and 'hardcore' players. At the launch of ToA it took 50+ in game days played to reach level 50 and then you had to spend another 50+ days doing ToA. So for those that could play 14 hours a day, they had a huge advantage over those who didn't. Another issue are those who just wanted to RvR and were upset at the PvE content. The addition of essentially mandatory PvE content in order to RvR again greatly upset many people. The year before ToA Mythic made a commitment to player made goods being the best in the game. However, Mythic went back on this commitment with ToA when artifacts and many drops were added. This did huge destructive damage to the crafter community and the economy as a whole.

The response to ToA was slow to come but it finally had come. DAOC launched new servers without ToA content. Further, the last patch (1.81) addressed many of the issues with ToA. Essentially ToA has become a lot quicker to do. This has helped make it so that more people can get ToA items they need to compete.

So while not back to pre-ToA play style on the regular servers, changes are certainly for the better and those who do not remember the 'good ole days' should find the content easy to do and many will find it enjoyable as well.

I will correct this if you tell me what is the opinion part.  By that I mean what of these issues is something that is significantly disputed?  The state of the game when SI came out stated that they intended from launch that crafted gear be the best, and then ToA changed that.  Crafters were, and are, rightly upset about that.  ToA did offer a lot of new abilities that affected RvR.  Thus it did require people to go on long raids.  That also upset people.  Those are many of the reasons why a server without ToA one on the poll than ran.  No buffbots only got 3% of the vote. 

As for crafting, what I wrote seems pretty clinical:

Crafting involves buying material from an NPC merchant. You then sit or stand in place. You click on the icon you want to make. If you make the item there is a chance that you will raise your skills. There are 100 points to each rank. When you make it to the next rank it opens up new items to make (or often just higher level items of the same item depending on the tradeskill). In order to be of the use for most of the player population you will need to get near the max skill for your craft. Crafting is a secondary skill to your primary class. It is nearly impossible to level a tradeskill to the point of being useful if you are a level 1 character. It involves a significant monetary commitment. It is best to get to level 50 and get the money and then begin crafting. On the regular servers, the only profitable tradeskill by pure crafting is spellcrafting (putting magical bonuses on items). On the Classic Servers, if you are willing to put in the time to make the highest quality gear, then you can make a profit from the mundane tradeskills such as armorcrafting.

I can see some slight modifications perhaps.  I could list all of the tradeskills the game has to offer and what spellcrafting and alchemy can do.  This is perhaps the one good point about the DAOC crafting system over say EQ1.  In fact I will probably make that edit tomorrow.  But what else?  I could rephrase it such that given the significant monitary commitment is is highly unlikely you will be able to raise your skills to LGM status by pure crafting.  For spellcrafting and alchemy it is impossible because there are no tasks.  I could change it to saying that on the regular servers you will most likely only make a profit from spellcrafting and not the mundane crafts.  But to me, this is something more in terms of semantics. 

I am willing to change the FAQ once I know exactly what people have an issue with and why.  Kunou posted something about crafting and I changed it to this.  I asked him if that was acceptible enough for him and he said nothing in return.  I would not have gone into ToA in detail like that if it wasn't for the need to explain why people would want to play on servers without an entire expansion. 

  PWR_SURGE

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Joined: 2/10/06
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Behold the shiny 'NERF-BAT' welcome all who enter the nerf bats chamber of doooooooooom

2/11/06 11:35:03 AM#29

just to make sure I am understanding this right. I am new and considering what game to play now that i left COX within the last couple days.

anyways. If i D/L the 14 day free trial and decide i like it and then go buy the platinum edition I will basically play 45 days for free using the same acct?  Thaat would be a nice edition and a good selling point to keep WIFE AGGRO to a minimum.

Thanks I am new to these threads And i must say since the community manager is following this thread...This is the greatest site I have used in 2 years (almost) of playing COX. eVERYONE HAS BEEN SO HELPFUL ON  assisting me on my difficult decision of what game to start on now.

thank you all for the info and your time you put into  posting this stuff for us "noobs"

Thx again :>)

  PWR_SURGE

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Posts: 15

Behold the shiny 'NERF-BAT' welcome all who enter the nerf bats chamber of doooooooooom

2/11/06 11:42:25 AM#30

also as i read further i cam eup with more questions about crafting. Now the crafting this is totally new to me personnaly; COX only implemented it recently with Supergroups in bases making things for the grp.  To me IMO it just seems as "something else to do with your time". If i purchase this game, can I play alot without having to do much crafting or none at all. maybe after I have played for abit and decide i want to see something new then I would like to try. just right now It is not my cup of tee, but i am always willing to try. this thread is awesome thanks alot for taking the time to post we 'noobs' appreciate it.

  JulianDracos

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OP  2/11/06 3:17:30 PM#31

1. Crafting is entirely optional. You do not need to do it unless you want to. If you want crafted gear you can purchase it from crafters or from the merchants they can put at their houses. But there is droped gear, quested gear, gear you can trade for via seasl or aurulite. There are plenty of ways of getting good gear in DAOC.

2. If you use the trial you can then by the EPIC edition and add it on as an expansion. This will allow you to have a total of 45 days for free at the cost of just the epic edition. Someone posted you can get the Epic at gamestop for $20. I have not verified that, but I have seen it at Wal-Mart for $29.99.

  JulianDracos

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Posts: 1529

 
OP  2/11/06 4:00:42 PM#32

Updating the Crafting info - perhaps less people will object to it now ::::39::

Added auto training and acronyms.

  RJCox

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Posts: 2695

"It''s OK... I''m a leaf on the wind! Watch how I soar!"

2/13/06 8:31:23 AM#33

While you might not feel it was opinion based on your own experiences and such, the crafting section was very much clouded by your opinions. While you may feel that it is slow and boring and not profitable in any form, there are many others out there who don't feel that way. I mean in one breathe you said that the crafting system was pointless, and that there were entirely too many crafters on the server... If it is pointless why are there so many people doing it then?

Don't get me wrong, I'll be the first to admit that the crafting system does indeed need some work, but as someone who has crafted extensively in every game on the market with a crafting system, DAoC's is BY FAR not the worst available, and a lot of people actually enjoy it, myself included...

Richard J. Cox
"There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."

  JulianDracos

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Posts: 1529

 
OP  2/13/06 10:55:30 AM#34


Originally posted by Kunou
While you might not feel it was opinion based on your own experiences and such, the crafting section was very much clouded by your opinions. While you may feel that it is slow and boring and not profitable in any form, there are many others out there who don't feel that way. I mean in one breathe you said that the crafting system was pointless, and that there were entirely too many crafters on the server... If it is pointless why are there so many people doing it then?

Don't get me wrong, I'll be the first to admit that the crafting system does indeed need some work, but as someone who has crafted extensively in every game on the market with a crafting system, DAoC's is BY FAR not the worst available, and a lot of people actually enjoy it, myself included...


I never said it was the worst available. My actual words were it was the worst aspect of DAOC.

Why are so many people doing it? Salvage mostly. Some also to be able to provide their guild with the occasional non ToA piece they need. I do think the the smaller servers being made smaller by the addition of the Classic servers has helped the crafting economies out. There are now fewer crafters out there so less supply and more demand can lead to an increase in cost. Further, there are fewer crafters who will sell crafted gear at or below cost like before and this has also helped.

I think you provide the best example of the people who like the crafting system. If I recall, what you enjoy is sitting down and talking to people while crafting, right? That is usually the answer I hear from people who enjoy the crafting system. However, I would like to point out the clicking the button and watching the green line is not what you enjoy (although I think crafter do get conditioned to the ding just like a dog). What people enjoy is the community they are talking to. Which says a lot about the community as well as the state that crafting is in.

In any case, since you are using the past tense, does this now mean the crafting section has your approval?

  RJCox

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"It''s OK... I''m a leaf on the wind! Watch how I soar!"

2/13/06 11:36:02 AM#35

I'm sorry, I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make about chatting with people while I craft. Yes, that is what I enjoy, naturally I don't enjoy staring at the green bar. I don't think there's ever been a crafting system made that was completely enjoyable in its own right. Regardless of what it entails it is always repetitive and monotonous until you max out your skill in it. No matter how "interactive" a game tries to make its crafting system everything on the market always boils down to the same thing, watching that green (color may vary) bar fill up over and over. EQ2 added a lot of interactivity to their crafting system, you had to pay attention and use counters to improve quality, etc. But even with all that it was still just a matter of watching the bars fill up over and over. Honestly if that is what you're using to determine if the system is good or not I think you're off the mark. Nobody crafts because they enjoy the mechanics of the system itself, watching the bar go up, etc. They craft for the end result, the interaction with the community, selling their wares, the fame it can bring them if they're one of the top crafters on their server in their line of work, etc.

While I have stated several times that I feel the crafting system in DAoC isn't perfect and needs work, I don't feel that work is needed in the mechanics of the system. HOW the system works is fine imo, how long it takes, how much it costs, etc, all fine to me. What needs to be changed is making it a viable option again, making crafted goods as desirable as farmed drops, artifacts, champion weapons, etc. Not made better than, cause then you just reverse the problem, everyone only wants crafted goods and all the dropped/farmed loot becomes worthless, etc.

Again, all this is purely in my opinion as a player/crafter, not anything official as a Mythic Employee.

Richard J. Cox
"There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."

  JulianDracos

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Joined: 5/24/04
Posts: 1529

 
OP  2/13/06 4:23:52 PM#36

1.  I do have issues with the mechanics of crafting.  I think you are right that for the most part every crafting system is the same.  Some just happen to try and make it more interactive.  However, I would make the same claim for most aspects of the PvE experience.  You kill things over and over to get XP to get a level.  You then train.  Go back to the spot and continue to kill.  It is just as monotonous as crafting in theory.  What makes it not feel that way is how it is impleneted.  How many distractions there are?  What are the risks/rewards?  Am I actually doing something that requires me to look at the screen?  Do I move?  Do I press more than one button? 

All I am suggesting is that we dress crafting up as much as possible to be like the rest of the PvE experience.  It is monotonous at its core, but we dress it up pretty so that people do not mind it.  Many will actually enjoy it. 

2.  The desirablity of the crafted goods.  I am 100% with you on this.  At one time I would have prefered crafting to droped loot.  But I think many players like questing for items.  It gives them something to do and a feeling of accomplishment.  So I think in terms of desirablity that crafted items need to be on par with almost any droped/quested item in the game. 

So is what is written now acceptible or does it still come off to you as crafting is worthless? 

  RJCox

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"It''s OK... I''m a leaf on the wind! Watch how I soar!"

2/13/06 7:05:36 PM#37

Looks good, though you still contradict yourself somewhat... How can SCing be the only profitable tradeskill when you need crafted armors and weapons to do the SCing to... Granted SCing is definitely MORE profitable, seeing as one SCer can take an order to work on many different pieces constructed by various other tradeskills.

Also there is a typo in the Alch part, by "crates" I assume you mean "creates".

Also, one minor suggestion which you may hate me for... ;) I think the whole thing would be A LOT easier to read if you differentiated the questions from the answers in some manner, bolded and underlined for example...

Richard J. Cox
"There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."

  JulianDracos

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Joined: 5/24/04
Posts: 1529

 
OP  2/14/06 1:05:53 AM#38

I will fix the typo.

And yes going through it I agree it needs to be color coded. I will go in an mark the question and answers in differnet colors when i get the chance.

  JulianDracos

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Joined: 5/24/04
Posts: 1529

 
OP  2/14/06 4:47:38 PM#39

Fixed the Alch typo.  I did not see where I said you could only make money with spellcrafting.  I mean it said that at one time, but not the current version.  It still might be there and me, being such a bad editor of my own work, am unable to see it.

In any case it is now color coded for your viewing pleasure.  If you think other colors would work best let me know and I will change them. 

  User Deleted
2/15/06 9:53:49 AM#40

Originally posted by JulianDracos

Fixed the Alch typo.  I did not see where I said you could only make money with spellcrafting.  I mean it said that at one time, but not the current version.  It still might be there and me, being such a bad editor of my own work, am unable to see it.

In any case it is now color coded for your viewing pleasure.  If you think other colors would work best let me know and I will change them. 


Hmm try just making the questions yellow or cyan and leaving the answers white... might be easier on the eyes. 
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