Sorry for the long post. :)

I, for one, am against death penalties. After coming home from work, wanting to relax and play my favorite MMORPG, the last damn thing I want is some punk to come along and force his game style on my fun. I am going to be touching a lot on PvP because in my view, PvP and death penalties go hand in hand and each of them affect the other strongly.

Oh sure, it is more "realistic" to have penalties and have repercussions. However, if I am not mistaken, last I checked MMORPG's are games, and by games' very nature are not "realistic". It is a form of entertainment. I don't get virtually killed while watching TV and I shouldn't get virtually killed while playing a game I pay for either.

I have played many MMORPG's:

UO
EQ
WoW
DAoC
AC
Horizons
Edit: Earth Above and Beyond (forgot about this one)
Edit: AO (forgot about this one)
Edit: SWG (sucks now, and I can't believe I forgot about it after playing for 2 years :P)

UO, DAoC, Horizons, SWG and WoW are the ones that I have played with any real commitment. Loved SWG until it got screwed over with the FPS change, but that is for another topic. :P

Let me touch a bit on my experience with death penalties and PKing. While I was waiting for UO to put their beta out, I was playing Diablo 1. It was in this game that I discovered the true meaning of griefing. I could see that if people don't have any deterrence from doing bad things, coupled with anonymity we have anarchy. If I were to set my game instance with D1 to allow anyone, it was a matter of minutes before my lowly character would get his rear stomped by some griefer. Of course I learned... I learned to put a password up and only play with people I knew in real life.

Now, in UO.... Oh, I saw their woes coming hard and fast after my Diablo experience. We had gank squads at every major city entrance in UO. Also, popular monster spawns were covered with gank squads as well. It sucked. As someone has mentioned, people were dropping off the game like flies in an exterminator raid. I NEVER carried anything magical. EVER. I simply vendored it immediately. Getting money out of the item was more beneficial then actually using it. What's the point? Just to have someone take it from me? Screw that. All my characters were created with the intent to support each other so if one of them died, getting them dressed was just a matter of re-crafting. I did a LOT of re-crafting in UO. There was no fun in it. Did I get a rush? Only the first few times, then it got old, fast. It got to the point, I would just stand there, wait to die, then go re-craft. Yeah, that's fun. (/end sarcasm) Then the devs at UO got the brilliant idea of murder counts. Oh, that was great. Now the murderers couldn't enter game cities without getting insta-killed. Naturally, all resources in the cities were stripped by the minute, forcing me once again to get killed outside city territory. Fun, no really, it was. Then, the people flagged as a murderer would simply go find a hiding place, usually a locked house, and leave their character logged on while they go to school/work to wear the murder counts off. Wash, rinse, repeat. Next brilliant idea by the devs was bounty. I can honestly say, I saw the problem with that immediately: the pkers would simply rank up has high a bounty as they could and then have one of their buds kill that character and collect the lovely bounty. Delete that character and start all over again. Finally, the devs got it: Let the players *gasp* have a choice of PvP or not. So we had a world split. The non-PvP was called Trammel, and the PvP side was Felucca. Guess which was the most populated? Sure the hell wasn't Felucca.

So, to sum it all up, if a game is going to have a PvP element at all, where a person doesn't have a choice in the matter, and there should be no death penalties or at least have weak ones. Or, as someone already mentioned, separate servers with harsh rules and moderate rules. Many, if not most, people don't like having someone's play style forced on them while they are minding their own business. The point of a game is entertainment, not stress. If I want stress, I can go back to work and work all night, too. I want to play a game and not worry about having to deal with a death penalty if I die, just to lose everything I worked so hard for in the last few hours.

So, usually, when I look at a game, the first thing I look for is PvP option. If I am forced to PvP, then I will avoid that game altogether. (read: EVE online.) I love the idea of EVE online, but I will not tolerate getting someone else’s play style forced on me when I just want to relax. So, I haven’t played EVE at all.

There has also been some talk about so-called weak death penalties in games like WoW. When comparing WoW to some death penalties in past or present MMORPG’s, yes it may seem a bit weak. However, if one is a casual gamer (such as myself) I don’t have the time to go and farm the hell out of an area to get drops and resources just to go sell on the Auction House and make money. So, when I die, the penalty is not only running back to the corpse and timing the resurrection, but the amount of money it will take to repair the items wore by my body. My characters are not rich and are not likely to ever be rich. In short, despite the “weak” death penalty, I still hate dying and avoid it when I can.

Again, I would rather see weak death penalties (or none at all) over harsh.

Having played a few MMO's including EQ, EQII, SWG, AO, and now WoW I have an insight on this death penalty system.  A few months ago I played an off-shoot of EQ called Winters Roar.  The death penalty was exactly like EQ but with the following exception, you get experience debt and did not loose a lvl.

Now from a realistic standpoint (yeah I know) you should not loose a level when dying, and adding xp debt makes it somewhat more realistic also.  It still makes you retrieve your body and get a rez unless you want the debt, which in the end game will still make you think long and hard before making mistakes.

WoW's system is too simple for my tastes, but dying will still degrade your equipment 10% each death, even with rezs.  And depending on your position in the zone and where you died at can make for a long run, not to mention the possibilty of mobs being near when you rez.

As far as people complaining about MMO being meant for groupings more than soloing, I agree but you have to remember that playstyles differ amongst individuals, and some I've met playing the games really didn't belong in groups anyway! LOL  But I find myself soloing more and more as time goes on, due to the methods of other players.  However that's why we have a guild on both the EQ and Wow servers I'm on that's for friends and family only, and they are not end-game guilds either by any stretch.  Been there, done that, no thanks anymore.

Now some of the arguments I've seen are presented from PvP perspective, such as being able to loot corpses.  EQ had a good system in place for that also, but I never partaked of PvP servers myself.  From what I understand you could loot one item from a corpse, which makes sense to me.  This would lessen the amount of ganking that would go on, as with human nature greed could take over if allowed to loot the entire corpse.

These are just my thoughts and opinions based upon a few years in the trenches, hope this has been of help.

I've read most of the posts but not all of them (that's my disclaimer).

I play WoW and unfortunately (as in not having a larger gamebase) that is my main basis for comparison. I played SWG but after the last change I gave that up. I have experienced other MMO's through my boyfriend's eyes and it saddens me that his interest in a game will immediately be turned-off when he sees that a game has open PvP. His own post is in here so I'll just leave it at that.

My opinions are this: Grinding on WoW, even with quests does take awhile and if one were to have XP penalties for dying, it would take forever to get those XPs back. Somehow it doesn't seem fair that a creature that only gives up 150XP could kill you and you could lose a few thousand points.

I don't play on a PvP server so I really don't have to worry about ganking and can actually concentrate on leveling, resource gathering, or whatever else I feel like doing that day. I understand the "thrill" of PvP, I get it too when we do PvP but I personally wouldn't want to be looking behind my back all the time or depending on friends/guildies to go out into the world. I do wish sometimes you could smack someone who is being a jerk but that comes with the gameplay style I choose.

As for the death penalty on WoW, I for one don't just go into any battle and not care if I die or not...I still think about anything I am about to undertake. Some people think the "penalty" is weak but I don't have tons of gold to put to repairing my items. I will still run from battle if I am dying and I hardly ever use the angel. Durability loss on equipped items is one thing but durability loss on items in my inventory too?
I guess in this way I am different from other gamers in WoW, I see people all the time with the little rezz sickness icon. I would much rather find my body and/or have someone rezz me then use the angel. The 10% durability loss on my equipped items is bad enough.

I like the one post about Dishonor kills being tied to stats, that could be a viable way to stop some of the griefing. It is sad that there has to be griefers out there that don't seem to understand sense of fair-play and plain decency.

I saw some site for a new game where they offer two types of characters. The one with "perma-death" and the more "casual" character. Sounds good but in the end if you want to own property or be in charge of a guild you have to have a "perma-death" character. The idea is there but I don't think it is fully formed yet.

In the end, the game is just that....A GAME! I play to have entertainment and socialize with friends. If I want exictement I can go to Battlegrounds or "flag" myself PvP. The idea of paying money so I can "die" and have to spend time/money/effort to get where I was before kinda blows. In one hand we want games to be like real life but on the other hand we don't. Hopefully as these games continue to evolve people will find a happier medium. Until then I'll stick to places that allow me to enjoy the game without worrying about being "gank'ed" from behind by some punk-a$$ kid.

It's obvious to me (and most likely the rest of you) that this subject (and the subsequent debate) is all about preference.  Many MMO players exist and each has a slightly different take on what makes an MMO fun for them.  In general, those that focus more heavily on the conflict-to-competition aspect of gameplay will invariably prefer a more die-hard no-holds-barred approach to things like death penalty and player corpse looting.  Conversely, more casual players will tend towards MMOs that tailor themselves to as much fun as possible with as little risk of setback as they can manage.  This debate is truthfully pointless, because there is no one answer that will fit everyone.

The only thing you can hope to achieve is either to have separate MMOs in the market that cater to the needs of all various flavors of the MMO playerbase, or you try to architect a game that somehow can meet the needs of all types.  One potential solution I read above was to have separate servers/shards with different death penalty options, and this does achieve that goal.

Another alternative that a couple of MMOs have started to attempt to implement but never succeeded as of yet (to my knowledge) was having different paths of advancement that have different death penalties associated with them.  The only example I know of that would be of use in this is one of the original death penalty concepts being entertained in Horizons before it was revamped during the course of development.  In this early concept being entertained, dragons would/could be hunted by other races and potentially perma-killed under specific circumstances.  Dragons were intended to be rare and very difficult to play, and this was one way of facilitating that concept and insuring it would happen so that only the most dedicated (or careful) players would have dragons as characters.  I ravenously enjoyed this idea, because for those of us that are competitive and want to be special, such a game mechanic would allow for that.  Those that were interested in more forgiving MMO game mechanics would play the other races within the same game world.  At one point in time, they had such a mechanic in place for Jedi in SWG if memory serves me correctly, thus insuring that anyone attempting to become a Master Jedi and managing to succeed really earned it. 

Nothing could be further from the truth now in that context, but that's not really part of this discussion.  ;p

While this idea is not widely accepted, it has been entertained, even if only for a short time.  At one point, the EQ devs allowed players to take over specific NPC spawns (mostly in newbie areas) and use them to attack players.  I think they even allowed for XP gain and levelling, though it was within strict limits.  But these NPC's also had little to no individual identity of their own, and perma-death was swift and brutal because they were limited to where they could run to and what gear they could utilize.  I had a blast with that brief snippet of ingenuity, and have longed for a more well-developed and possibly long-term opportunity to play the 'monsters' in an MMO.

I'm not harping on this concept to try and sell anyone on the idea, per se.  I'm mainly illustrating it as one obvious means of implementing MMO mechanics that cater to more than one flavor of death penalty.  I'm sure there are other alternatives that we could think up that achieve the same end, either as slight variations or completely different.  But it can be done.  It's just that nobody's done it yet as an inherent game feature that I'm aware of... yet.

Different people respond to different things. Some people apparently respond more to the stick than the carrot. Personally, I don't need that stick to give my playtime meaning; while I can understand that point of view, it's not one that I share. I play these games to accomplish little goals (gain levels, get that set of armor, finish that quest), meet some friendly people, and roleplay a bit when possible. I don't play these games to overcome challenges, hardships, pvpers, or anything else like that.

I do find the entire concept of single-player-gamers being the reason for light death penalties to be faulty, though. I've been an administrator/builder on MUDs long before MMOs existed, and I've been involved with MMOs since their first generation. Light death penalties are showing up not because designers are trying to tap a new market, but because it's what a measurable percentage of their current market wants. I don't think that any single way of doing things is the correct one; it's a big market, and there's enough room for multiple variations for multiple types of players. Harsh death penalties and full pvp aren't my thing, but that doesn't mean I want them absent from the genre, just absent from the game I ultimately choose to play.

a strong death penalty is required.

in eq2 for example - there is not reason not to jump right in and try to kill some uber mob that you have no business engaging. the penalty in eq2 - a tiny xp debt - is quickly paid off by killing one or two mobs.

without a real cost of dying - there is no thrill.

I like harsh death penalties. The sense of achievement is gone from most mmorpgs. No death penalties takes the excitement of a fight out of the game for me.

Played Eq, FFXI, and WoW (and some other boring mmos here and there). I couldn't play WoW more than a month. You rarely socialize with others. Most people don't want to group because soloing makes leveling faster. Most people don't know how to work as a group. I never played in the end-game raids but zerging has never been fun for me. I rather get 3 friends together and play gauntlet, because unless you come with your own guild into WoW, you will be pretty lonely until 60.

I have a background in marketing and a long history of PvP and MMORPG games thus my take on things might varry a bit from others.

To me the right death penalty for a game is the one which is tailored to achieve a specific objective for a specifc game considering its type of game (PvP, RvR, PvE) and the players who play it.

You can't just put UO's death penalty in any game and have it work because its success depends on weather the players like it and how well that game system allows you to recoever from it. For example the player base of WoW is primarly of casual gamers with some hardcore gamers that enjoy mostly PvE and like a side dish of PvP every once in a while they can partake in. The death system there targets time loss and monitary loss which are two of the most important things to a casual gamer. If you transported UO's death system into the game the time investment required to attain the max level and enjoy high end content would become far greater and many of those PvE loving casual players would be very fustrated with the game and their slow progression in the limited time they have causing it to become a second job and cause many to leave.

Dark age of Camelot is a RvR game which encourages team based conbat and holding/capturing territory in for your kingdom (Game faction not Player). In this game there are two death penalties but the main one you encounter in high end game is simply the time factor and likely loss of territory. This death system is not perfect but once again a UO system is not good for this game because of the style of combat it involves. If you had a UO death system then engagements with 10-400 players fighting it out will be highly discouraged and therefore Keeps and Towers will be ignored totally as they would become death traps which can never change hands. In that game nothing short of divine intervention will save you during a charge from the sting of arrows and spells from the defending realm. If your the unlucky target of 10 archers, your dead and there is nothing you can do about it. There are lots of extreamly competative players in DAoC and the biggest peanlty to them of all is loosing the fight and the reaward for their service is attaining ranks of prestige. For example a player by the name of Mistwraith gained global fame by hitting the maximum rank many times in her prime. There was also a point where her team of 8 defended a keep doomed to fall from an army 90 strong. Thats really fun to do, but there is no way you would attempt it if your going to loose everything at the end.

So what is a good death system?

Basically you need to first as a few questions to yourself when you design one...

1) How will my game deliver entertainment to its players?

     You need to preserve this and make sure your death penalty encourages this style of play.

2) In playing this game what do my players value most?

    This can be anything really from time to items, to money. This is important because it helps you identify elements of the game which can be used in your dealth penalty. You need a list of options because you want to discourage death enough to make the player value life, while delivering your games entertainment value. This means that if you encourage PvP, you shouldn't discourage people from participating in it with a huge death setback penalty.

This is also key to identifying game elements which can be used as a reward for players whom are victorious and gives you a range of options to choose from minor to major rewards.

3) What does the average player think takes away from the fun?

   This builds a list of elements to avoid in designing a death penalty and any other game system. Your players will remain loyal as long as your game continues to provide entertainment for them. Just as finding out what entertains your audience is important, so is finding out what turns them off. The point of a dealth penalty is to discourage death, not make your players miserable.

Conclusions

Every game has an internal imbalance which makes them unique and intreseting. This is espically present in games which teamwork as a focus because every class has its weakness and strength and those strenghts often do not contribute to offensive power. In the same way every game also has its own source of entertainment in the eyes of the players and its own fair set of things which detract from the entertainment value of the game. The way the game delivers entertainment is the foundations to a successful MMO and any dealth penalty the game has must support and enjance the entertainment value of a game and never take away from it. Finally, every death penalty system must offer rewards for victory while discouraging death and defeat. This means using game elements valuable to players in order to offer them rewards, and penalize them in a way which penalize them in a way which they can easily recover from but still discourage death and defeat. Though it is key to remember that list of what takes away from the entertainment offered in your game in the eyes of your players because your death penalty should never touch there. The entire purpose of those penalties is to enhance entertainment rather then punish players.

I must say, after more thought.

I think it depends on the mechanics of the game aswell.

Took at look at two games taht have open pvp, Ultima Online and Lineage 2.

Now in UO (my fav mmorpg of all time) you lost EVERYTHING you had on you. However the game really was not an item dependent game. Losing a sword you could merely go get another one and still be viable. It wasn't a lv based game either, all swords were a sword. There was no "lv 13 sword/lv 50 sword."

However in lineage 2, it was EXTREMELY item dependent. Losing your weapon really gimped your character bad. You weren't viable without the lv of gear. You had to grind grind grind to get money to buy a new weapon if you didn't have it, and items were expensive. You didn't drop everything you had either, it was more of a random chance for "x" item to drop. However it was a loooooot more of a "sting" when you lost things because of it's extreme item dependency, your character didn't make himself, his items did.

IMO UO was a lot better designed for losing items when it came to looting and pvp, lineage 2 sucked.

As far as "exp" loss, I'm not really for that myself. I much prefer players to lose items (a la UO) and/or take a durability loss (with eventual breaking). This in turn also creates money sinks (which are good for the ecnomoy) among other things.

It makes you not want to do and gives you that rush when you think you might, but doesn't make you want to bludegon yourself with a nerf bat because of it.

1. I don't like WoW, I don't play WoW, I don't hate WoW. The game isn't for me, but it is setting a standard. I'd like an alternative (I see one on the horizon).
2. As more and more people point out, death must be implemented to complement the individual game. The game experience as a whole is what should determine how death is handled.
3. I have my own very strong preference: Rather realistic (meaning there is no such thing as level 60), immersive worlds that are significantly affected by the actions of players.

That does go far beyond the subject of death handling (penalties, if you want to call it that , but I see anything less than dying as a bonus). However, it has just been pointed out that the question of death implementation is not an individual matter than can be taken out of context.

Disadvantages of significantly "penalized" deaths

• Frustration: Those who are big already when small people join can keep small people down forever. (However, I consider this the failing of the level system that makes top range characters god-like compared to the bottom level characters. Face it: A level 60 able to stand there an take ten swings from a level 1 without dying isn't "realistic" - although it may for some games be an appropriate reward for playing time)
• Frustration. I just realized it is the only clear disadvantage I can truly see.

Advantages

• Less people will randomly enter combat without a care for their fate. This also reduces the risk of being randomly killed, and so reduces some of the problem it causes. However, unless followed up by a strict griefing policy, it could attract more of them.
• As long as you keep it at this level (which is very unspecific) I don't see many more advantages either. But if we take it further...

Permadeath disadvantages

• Increased frustration
• Possibility of actual loss of character (basically frustrating, though...)

Permadeath advantages / strong sides

• The top-range players will sometimes be knocked out and start from below, keeping the game open to newcomers.
• Allows a dynamic and immersive world, where people come and go.
• Allows for a consistent storyline, which can greatly enrich the world.

Tricks to improve a permadeath game

• Reduce the significance of grind: You've got that level 1-60 progression where the top couldn't get killed by the bottom even if they wanted to. That means that if you die, you have a looong ways to go before you're anywhere near where you used to be. (If you used to be high). If there is a battle featuring many high leveled characters, it shouldn't be pointless for a lower level to join the fray on either side. (This would even encourage higher levels to treat lower levels with respect, and take advantage of their friendship when needing help)
• Make the most important aspect of a character his identity, and let the stats be only complimentary data to assist the identity in gaining uniqueness and usefulness.
• Make the same gear available to everybody, and let anything be craftable. Of course, there has to be full loot. But if you attack only to loot, well: There isn't much encouragement. Most likely, you're as well equipped as your victim, and the loss won't be too aggravating as his new character can obtain reasonably good equipment shortly after coming into existence.

Some might complain that this system does not at all reward long timers who are devoted to the game, and that it isn't fair / realistic.

• There are games abundant for those who feel this way
• Did you ever see a real person with ten years of training take out ten untrained enemies in melee / brawl? I haven't seen much melee or brawl, but I am quite convinced that allies and good sense makes as much a difference as training and experience. At least, they're fairly even, all able to tip the scale.

You could reduce looting motivation (to have fewer [perma]deaths caused by looting alone) by having individual weapon skills rather than attack skill / level. The sword in the corpse's hand will be even less interesting when you've only really focused on the axe.

You could throw levels out the window and bring in skills, but now I'm not keeping it as general as I initially intended. If I keep this up I will be discussing Adellion - which is not the topic, but is exceptionally close to the ideal I seek. (No, that game is still in alpha and no schedules are published.)

I look very much forward to having a game that is tailored to needs like my own rather than the mainstream desires that so many find satisfied in the current games.

In a game of skill the death penalty should be high but in a game of number crunching.. strictly gear nad levels the death penalty makes not much sense. I mean if you could get away from someone or fight off a mob or player much higher or geared then u then I can see a reason for a heavy death penalty because your just not skilled enough and should of not been playing with fire. When it comes to gaves like everquest.. lineage 2.. UO.. and whatever else you can name.. the power of the player is considered solely by his level.. gear and ability to spam skills making it extremely unfair.

I am with Frank, There should be a harsh death penalty. I loved UO until it went soft. Sure I got murdered a few times, but I also turned in a few heads for the bounty. You can't find the thrill anymore even on the PVP servers. There is no penalty and no reward. I love WOW, but it would be nice to have a SOF(Survival of the Fittest) PVP surver. The rules would be similer to the orginal UO PVP rules:

-Attack anyone at anytime or even some type of faction fighting, with flagged rogues attacked by all.

-looting(minimum all money and what ever you can carry from the bags, equipment from the body also, but add a long timer for removing it from the body, that way adds the fear that you might get caught)

-Murder counts and bounties to hunt down the murderers(I always thought this was a nice balance in UO, you kill too much and people will come hunting for you)

-pickpocketing(I loved pick pocketing in UO,never got into a house, but and proude to say I was able to steal a boat once :). Would be nice to able to do it again. )

GIVE ME BACK THE WILD WEST!!!!!

SNAKE

It seems to me that there are two "larger" camps of people.. those who like it.. those who don't.

Either camp finds it hard or "annoying" to live in the world that the other camp prefers...

seems to me that game companies should offer two types of servers.. one with the harsher death penalites, harsher pvp system etc and one that allows for players to play a more relaxed game.

Some games do have this .. seems to me if they take the time to allow each different portion of the player base to enjoy the game in the manner they would prefer there would be more retention of players.

More hardcore players are not going to want to stay in a more "carebear" world and the relaxed players are not going to want to put up with the attittudes of the hardcore... trying to cater to both sets at the same time on the same server just gets disillusinoned players or a waterered down game.

Frank is right imo.. you gotta have penalties for death or it's no fun. I played Lineage 2 for over a year and believe me, with the grind in that game you didn't wanna die and lose xp! You thought twice about your actions whether hunting or deciding to pvp.

Well here is the thing. It is my opinion that a good PvP game should have a few things in common regarding the death penalty...

1) The death penalty though undesirable should be easy to recover from. Death is part of PvP as winning and loosing are both critical parts of the game and its learning expierence. It should make a close victory that much more rewarding and encourage me to use common sense before I engage. However if I die, it should piss me off some but I should be able to quickly recover and get back into the fight. However in such systems it is also important to have proportional penalites becuase you should learn from your mistakes and being a repeated dumbass should be punished.

2) Progression should be through PvP not PvE. Most pvp players play such games in order to progress in the PvP world. The PvE element is the part of the game we pain to get through asap and hopefully never return to. We should never be forced back into PvE over a simple PvP death.

Part of my above reasoning is that for a PvP game to be good battles should be frequent and they must conclude. There is nothing more distasteful for a pvp player then running around all day or playing a game in which your opponent always runs away and a battle is rarely won. PvP players often see victory through one side retreating hollow and unsatisfying for all sides. Its best if players are not so fearful of dieing that they will allow the battle to climax and fight to the bitter end. Those battles are the most fun because they open up opportunity for sudden reversals and desperate but amazing and close victory.

In my opinion there is NOTHING more satisfying in a game then getting into a hard fight which lasts a good bit and comes down to the wire, and yet you managed to pull through even if it has taken its toll on you. Its so much more better then rolling a group of people who don't have as much equipment, buffs, expierence, or levels then you.

TBH, that is obvious. You do not have to PvP ~ AT ALL ~ in EvE, unless you want to. I have 2 accounts. One is a PvP type guy. The other, who is an industrial/science type, has never seen anything more dangerous than a station or a asteroid in months.

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Originally posted by Kvasir78

So, usually, when I look at a game, the first thing I look for is PvP option. If I am forced to PvP, then I will avoid that game altogether. (read: EVE online.) I love the idea of EVE online, but I will not tolerate getting someone else’s play style forced on me when I just want to relax. So, I haven’t played EVE at all.

 

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Originally posted by jacobR
the most annoying part is when i go into ghost after being killed by a GRIEFER (always 20 lvls more than me) i have to run all the way back to my corpse again and than rez and be killed again? No i dont like that concept. Especially since i lose nothing. So Really i could come back a few hrs later and do whatever i was doing again and not worry.

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This is a shoot yourself in the foot argument...

Think about that exact scenario, but now ADD a DEATH PENALTY too!  How does having a death penalty STOP that 20 lvls ahead griefer doing exactly the same thing?  And if you tell me, "oh communities build up to stop the griefers and it's all friendly and such"...I'll tell you...GARBAGE!  All that turns into is a to-and-fro killing match that makes any sort of "game" that orginally existed turn into a sideshow for mob revenge killings.

Frank is wrong too, a death penalty doesn't deter the gerbils (because they actually GET their fun from the risks)...all the DP does is give gerbils POWER!  The power to take away hard earned experience, hard earned loot and any other lost game time that the kill produces.

FIGHT the power...don't give in to the gerbils...after all, it's probably the gerbils themselves that are calling for the reintroduction of DPs in all the new games.  Gerbil: [whine voice] "It's just no challenge, it's just no fun...I don't get anything from killing unsuspecting players anymore...bring back the DP so I can ruin people's day totally...please"

Go kill each other in UO or Shadowbane (or even EVE)...and watch as your puny populations of like-minded gerbils decrease until there's none of you left...and good riddance!

I like challenge and realism.  A severe death penalty can provide that challenge.  It worked in PnP RPG's just fine.  Permadeath is not really a good idea in an mmorpg but heavy xp debt and severe but temporary stat loses are appropriate.  The only major mmorpg I know of that has a reasonably severe death penalty is EVE online.  The others make death a joke and that's sad.

I don't like having to make corpse runs because it doesn't seem realistic.  Nor is it a feature of any fantasy or sci-fi literature that I'm aware of.  There are other, more immersive ways to penalize defeat. 

Well I have read pretty much of the debate (I did skip a few pages as it is getting late).

I was suprised to see only passing reference to Asherons Call and its death penalty system. Basically, when you died you were resurrected at your lifestone - wherever you were 'tied' to. You then had to make your way back to you corpse from which you could retrieve the one or two random items that you would drop n death.

Now those dropped item usually were the higher value items, so many players would carry 'death items' - ie high value low use items, like golden cups and the like. SO if you died and only dropped you death items you could pretty much not bother with corpse recovery. If however you dropped you favourite sword or breastplate, then it was imperitive that you recovered it.

I remember with great fondness many guild corpse runs, with guildies clearing the way for the recently deceased to reclaim their good.

Fun times generated by a reasonable death penalty.

For those of you that call others n00bs because you profess to be the cool "real death penalty" kids:

If you want a severe death penalty go smack a bear on the bum.  Otherwise stop thinking you're an e-hero and get a life.  Games are for entertainment.  If you think you're better than the masses of players who play low/no penalty games because you played a game with harsher penalties, your goofy arse needs to go do something in real life that means something.  Do something, anything, that matters.  Do something that requires you to detach your rear from the chair and put in on the line.  But don't act high and mighty, as if you're tougher or cooler because you think a video game death penalty means anything about your "e-skill" or you.

Games are about enjoyment.  Real consequences, toughness, etc., are for the REAL world.  Go get something done in real life you smack-talking goobers.  Until then, enjoyment is the name of the GAME.  Join the volunteer fire company.  Join the Army.  Step in front of someone hurting someone or something else.  Do SOMETHING of consequence.  At the very least stop being a raging tard about how "tough" you think you are, and how "n00b" you think other people are. 

The most "carebear" people I've ever seen are the trash talkers who think they're PvP or MMORPG heroes.  Pathetic.