> Coming into contact with people hogging in-game resources or mobs just to make
> a quick buck are preventing other players from utilising that part of the game.

Solution: use instancing for main loot areas, as in WoW.

> Kind of like with drugs, it's the drug dealers who are really violent and anti-
> social but without people buying drugs they wouldn't be there.

Solution: legalise drugs so that they can be controlled.

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Originally posted by Bhob

Once again, you're not reading what I said I said MILLIONS not MILLLION,

OH So that invalidates everything I said, because I didn't add the s? No the same thing still applies.

 as I knew you'd come up with that argument. It's not really the point though, as the reason why I don't like to give real world examples. The point being that people who buy gold are not as prone to contribute into the game as the ways it was designed

So people who don't ebay don't always contribute. In SWG it's totally player run econmony. Plaer Crafters make the best items, but that doesn't mean anyone who doesn't craft isn't contributing.

In GW there is no level cap for armor, since the only realy boundary to aquiring the armor is being able to get get to the area (by a high level person basically dragging you there), as long as you have the cash you can buy your way there.

GW isn't a typical MMO, and this was the way the game was designed, to encourage people to ebay.

Which games? I would be it was only rare and powerful items, but this has NOTHING to do with ebaying, it's the simple law of supply and demand that rasies the prices. If the farmers were farming it, the prices would go down due to the larger supply.

FFXI for one, and actually it has. The prices of these items are so high now. What does it have to do with ebay?.. I didn't really think I needed to explain but it would seem that if you can't afford these items, which as you know if you've ever played FFXI are almost required to get into some parties, you'd need to go outside the game. Oh and I wonder what happens to the proceeds after? Ebay

So you're saying the prices are high because of ebay and people have to use ebay because the prices are high? Look I didn't really want to get into an econimcs lesson, so I'll make this quick and to the point: If I buy money on ebay it will be distibuted to the server. I can afford something at a high price, ther person selling that item now has my ebay moeny. The people supplying that person can now get paid more, the suppliers now have more money. Now everyone has more money with only one person ebaying.

Now back your situation: The cost of things have to do with the simple law of supply and demand. Supply is low demand is very high price is very high. Just because you can't figure out how to earn enough without ebaying doesn't mean others haven't.

Well, I don't think I ever said you did...wow you should stop assuming what I said. I said for 'me' personally. As a paying customer of the MMORPG I should be able to play the way I want too without having to feel I need to buy gold or items outside the game ...yes? I mean if the game was designed to not to get injections of gold from the outside, I should not be expected to.

Actually I'm not assuming anything jsut going by what you said, and I quote : "But I enjoy games more when you actually feel like you've earned something."

If you didn't need anyone else's approval it wouldn't matter if you were the only one on the server who didn't ebay, you would still feel like you accomplished something.

Really? huh.... That's probably why you can pick up a copy of EQ2 for $9.99 and I get emails begging me to come back. Seems to me they would need to bargain basement their software spam me to come back if they were so successful.

EXACTLY Now you understand. You see the money SOE is making allows them to lower the price of their software. Oh and just an F.Y.I WoW sends me the same spam "begging me to come back". I guess they're in trouble too right?

Also I'd point out that I have an opinion just like you, that doesn't make it any less valid than yours.
I'm not saying how to play, I'm not saying my way is the best way.... I'm just discussing and pointing out the reasons why I don't agree with it.

And I'm just trying to make you see, the reasons you have, the reasons that have been spouted by thousands of MMO gamers, just aren't valid. You say you hate it because it borks economies, but this is short term at best. You say you don't like it because you want to feel like you accomplished something, yet claim not to need anyone else to verify for you that you've accomplished something. One of those things can't be true as they are mutually exclusive.

Like I said before, most people don't like it because they were told not to like it. It seems unethical and gamers like to pretend they're moral untouchable ESPECIALLY on forums. If any MMO player asked any other MMO player if they bought anything of ebay, 99.99% would say they haven't, yet SOMEONE is doing it or it wouldn't be such a large business. The MMO scocitety has decided it is unethical and trumped up reasons to support their case, but no one wants to take the time to think on their own.

[quote]Originally posted by Jodokai
[b]

OH So that invalidates everything I said, because I didn't add the s? No the same thing still applies.

No not everything, just the fact that a million dollars isn't that much

So people who don't ebay don't always contribute. In SWG it's totally player run econmony. Plaer Crafters make the best items, but that doesn't mean anyone who doesn't craft isn't contributing.

I agree about SWG though most of the mid level stuff isn't worth a whole lot because no one wants to buy it, not to mention the fact that I've been to many abandoned merchants that have zero inventory.

GW isn't a typical MMO, and this was the way the game was designed, to encourage people to ebay.

I agree hence the reason I don't play it. I don't find it fun to get everything at once. They also have a big botting problem....but then again I'm sure Anet thinks that's ok too

So you're saying the prices are high because of ebay and people have to use ebay because the prices are high? Look I didn't really want to get into an econimcs lesson, so I'll make this quick and to the point: If I buy money on ebay it will be distibuted to the server. I can afford something at a high price, ther person selling that item now has my ebay moeny. The people supplying that person can now get paid more, the suppliers now have more money. Now everyone has more money with only one person ebaying.

Yes that's exactly what I'm saying and once again you're missing the point. It always kills me when someone says they know economics. I'll try and make it simple for you, the gil does not go back into the game it goes back to the gil sellers. And no not everyone does it but it makes it harder for the people who don't

Now back your situation: The cost of things have to do with the simple law of supply and demand. Supply is low demand is very high price is very high. Just because you can't figure out how to earn enough without ebaying doesn't mean others haven't.

Yes there is supply and demand but the ebays unfavorably tilt it in thier favor.

Actually I'm not assuming anything jsut going by what you said, and I quote : "But I enjoy games more when you actually feel like you've earned something."
If you didn't need anyone else's approval it wouldn't matter if you were the only one on the server who didn't ebay, you would still feel like you accomplished something.

I'm not sure what your getting at, if someone approves is not the point. Until a game says somewhere in the directions that buying stuff on ebay is part of the game I don't think it's really playing as designed.

EXACTLY Now you understand. You see the money SOE is making allows them to lower the price of their software. Oh and just an F.Y.I WoW sends me the same spam "begging me to come back". I guess they're in trouble too right?

Actually I've never gotten anything from WoW. The only people who email me is people who's numbers are dropping. If you want to think EQ2 is a success, go ahead.

And I'm just trying to make you see, the reasons you have, the reasons that have been spouted by thousands of MMO gamers, just aren't valid. You say you hate it because it borks economies, but this is short term at best. You say you don't like it because you want to feel like you accomplished something, yet claim not to need anyone else to verify for you that you've accomplished something. One of those things can't be true as they are mutually exclusive.

So you're saying thousands of gamers who enjoy and play MMOs are wrong, and you're right?
I think there are reasons for and against selling on ebay, both have valid points, but I don't have to agree with them.. there a difference in disagreeing and explaining why and saying everyone is wrong but me. That doesn't prove anything.

Like I said before, most people don't like it because they were told not to like it. It seems unethical and gamers like to pretend they're moral untouchable ESPECIALLY on forums. If any MMO player asked any other MMO player if they bought anything of ebay, 99.99% would say they haven't, yet SOMEONE is doing it or it wouldn't be such a large business. The MMO scocitety has decided it is unethical and trumped up reasons to support their case, but no one wants to take the time to think on their own.

Like I said I don't like it because it ruins the game, in my opinion. And have you ever considered the people who have bought stuff and denied it don't admit to it because they are too embarassed?
The current games I've played have all had problems with botting, and exploits and the sudden news about unfair labor practices in the east with the gold farms.....yea that sounds like a real positive thing for gaming.

Most of this I'm just not going to convice you of, so I'm not going to bother. I've proven it doesn't ruin the economy but you don't want to see it so that's fine (oh and I do have a minor in economics so I do know a little bit about it, sort of why I take such a keen interest in MMO's economies).

The main thing I wanted to explain, is we're talking about opionions here, I can't call anyone else's opinion wrong just like I can't say mine is right. What I am saying is that people don't think for themselves. For as long as you've been playing MMO's you've heard buying off ebay is wrong and it ruins the game. People have spouted off reasons why it does, so people just buy into it. Society feels it's wrong so it must by. You also have to remember that society also felt women weren't smart enough to vote, so yes they can be wrong.

Think for yourself is all I'm saying. No one in all the years I've been having this argument can come up with a valid reason why it's wrong, or hurts the game at all.

To explain the part that wasn't clear: If you complete a quest that's hard for you to do, and you get this awesome sword, and you say to your buddy, "Dude, I just did this ultra hard quest, and got this cool sword" and your buddy goes, "So, that guy over there just bought the same sword off ebay", how do you feel at this moment?

A) Like crap. All my hard work was for nothing and my experience was cheapened.

B) Great. I just finished a quest that was really difficult for me, and got my just reward. I don't care if I'm the last person on the server to get this, I got it and I feel good about it.

If you're an A person, this means what others do can effect how you feel about what you've done. You fit the "I need other people to verify my accomplishments" catagory.

If you are a B then someone buying off ebay CANNOT effect your feeling of accomplishment.

I personally think the only thing that should matter in a video game is one's ability to play the game. If how much money you spend determine's how 'good' you are in a game I won't play it. Simple as that.

BTW, I'm an A person, I'd expect that player to have obtained the item by the rules set within the game. If the rules were that you could buy the item than it would be acceptable, otherwise I'd assume that player lacked integrity.

Wow imagine that! An Ogaming/IGE affiliate patting SOE on the back for being
sellouts... never could have saw that coming

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Paraphrasing a few posts in this thread: All MMO players play for different reasons.

The reason why some MMO players have difficulty understanding why another player would spend cash to buy a virtual item is that the buyer is not, in fact, playing the game. The buyer is playing a meta-game. The rules of their meta-game may only be slightly different from the game the designers intended -- for example the meta-game player buys or sells a single item once after which the player plays the game "as intended."

Or the meta-game player could follow very different "rules" by developing a character that is focused on farming for real-world profit. This meta-game player is often interested in cornering the market, in predicting where the next great demand will be, in tracking the value of various farmed areas on different servers, etc. For this meta-game player, the "game" is exploiting something of little value to him/her to create something of more value to a buyer.

And then there is the meta-game player who does not develop a character at all. This meta-game player just trades. In this case, the "game" is surfing the trade forums, marketing, buying low, and selling high.

I am sure you can imagine other meta-games that might appeal to others but not to you.

This post is not about right/wrong, legal/illegal, or even what is good/bad for a game/economy. It is just my humble attempt to point out that the reason some do not play MMOs as intended is they want to play a different game.

Some game designers/developers may work harder to incorporate elements of the more "popular" meta-games into their games and if this frustrates you, I am sure the pendulum will swing the other way eventually. In other words, companies that cater to the "meta-gamers" will flood the market with products then savvy companies will make some great "MMO-traditionalist-centered" games to fill the void.

[I dislike labeling people, but I think you catch my drift]

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Originally posted by ajaxx

I personally think the only thing that should matter in a video game is one's ability to play the game. If how much money you spend determine's how 'good' you are in a game I won't play it. Simple as that.

BTW, I'm an A person, I'd expect that player to have obtained the item by the rules set within the game. If the rules were that you could buy the item than it would be acceptable, otherwise I'd assume that player lacked integrity.

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And I think the only thing that should matter is having fun. Keyword in video game being game.

Okay and if that player does lack integrity, how does that effect your accomplishments? Did it make what you did easier? All you lose is the ability to brag. "Look at me, look at what I have done!" that's all you've lost, because people can claim you bought it.

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Originally posted by BitterGamer

Wow imagine that! An Ogaming/IGE affiliate patting SOE on the back for being
sellouts... never could have saw that coming

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Originally posted by Jodokai
Most of this I'm just not going to convice you of, so I'm not going to bother. I've proven it doesn't ruin the economy but you don't want to see it so that's fine (oh and I do have a minor in economics so I do know a little bit about it, sort of why I take such a keen interest in MMO's economies).

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The only thing you have proven is you only read what you want to read. I've given you several reasons why the gold selling is not good for games, you may choose to disagree but you haven't proven anything.

If you take the economy aspect out of it, the very fact that gold selling breeds botting, duping, and a host of other exploits that break the terms of the EULA should be reason enough. This isn't someone selling thier character off when they retire.

If you are so keen of in game economies you should do a little more research on gaming economies and player psychology not real world economies. Being a minor in economics doesn't really impress me or convince me of anything. I've worked on a MMO, so what?

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Originally posted by Clatra
Paraphrasing a few posts in this thread: All MMO players play for different reasons.
The reason why some MMO players have difficulty understanding why another player would spend cash to buy a virtual item is that the buyer is not, in fact, playing the game. The buyer is playing a meta-game. The rules of their meta-game may only be slightly different from the game the designers intended -- for example the meta-game player buys or sells a single item once after which the player plays the game "as intended."
Or the meta-game player could follow very different "rules" by developing a character that is focused on farming for real-world profit. This meta-game player is often interested in cornering the market, in predicting where the next great demand will be, in tracking the value of various farmed areas on different servers, etc. For this meta-game player, the "game" is exploiting something of little value to him/her to create something of more value to a buyer.
And then there is the meta-game player who does not develop a character at all. This meta-game player just trades. In this case, the "game" is surfing the trade forums, marketing, buying low, and selling high.
I am sure you can imagine other meta-games that might appeal to others but not to you.
This post is not about right/wrong, legal/illegal, or even what is good/bad for a game/economy. It is just my humble attempt to point out that the reason some do not play MMOs as intended is they want to play a different game.
Some game designers/developers may work harder to incorporate elements of the more "popular" meta-games into their games and if this frustrates you, I am sure the pendulum will swing the other way eventually. In other words, companies that cater to the "meta-gamers" will flood the market with products then savvy companies will make some great "MMO-traditionalist-centered" games to fill the void.
[I dislike labeling people, but I think you catch my drift]

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I agree that gold sellers do not play the game, they are a business outside the game. They aren't interested in the challenge of gameplay just to make money. Gold buyers play the game except they don't want to deal with the niceties of things like having to do things themselve. They pay for the gold sellers 'time' to raise the money.

There are alot of people (including myself) who do play the games economy, farm, craft, buy low sell high ect, and thats what makes MMO's awesome in my opinion. But it's all in-game. The people who buy gold off people on ebay want to do none of that for the most part and just makes things more difficult (by supporting gold sellers) for the people who want to play by the rules. This is only my opinion.

There is a trend to make MMOs easier and more approachable to casual users nowadays and I think that gold selling goes hand in hand with this. If there are games that encourage this that's fine, but as long as a game does not support gold selling it is not right.

 The Gameing world has Changed over the years, But as for Real Life Cash to be used to better your advantage or to do whatever with is not right in my opinion.

(1) not Fair to the ones that Bust there bu**s off trying to do it the way it was ment to Play/Build/enjoy,

(2) Its a Game not a Factory Outlets store.

(3) MMORPG'S are Getting way out of hand, at the Beginning thay were great, because there was Trust among the People, now it has become what it has become.

 Theft, untrust,hackers, need i say more.

"Another question that raises itself in this story is whether or not these practices are fair. Let’s face it. Most of us can’t drop $2,000 to pick up a level 50/50 character and have to do it the hard way:"

Well there in actually lies the problem doesnt it....

Far from anyone seeing leveling up in EQ2 as "fun" or "a game" , noooooooo its described as "the hard way" and who would disagree. Its a treadmill that any self respecting hampster would rather die than jump on, let alone an otherwise inteligent human being.

Make the freakin games FUN and no one will want to buy the effort... the effort will be FUN!!

I swear this entire industry has lost the plot BIG TIME

As for the opening paragraph.... "Blizzard strictly prohibits the sale of items"

So explain this and stay fashionable..

http://search.ebay.com.au/world-of-warcraft-gold_W0QQfromZR40QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQsojsZ0QQssPageNameZWLRS

Its a joke...... J O K E.... joke

I personally hate the whole concept of buying in-game property with rl money.  This practice encourages cheating, hacking, and farming.  I think the only way honest players will ever get anything done about it is start making our voices heard.  Start writing people, work on getting laws changed.  For those who say it wont go away, if those that dont want start making a little noise it will go away.  

Its sad that in American society we have a bunch of lazy people who just because they have the money they think it makes it ok.  And I say this because yea the gold farmers may be in china but the lazy people buying the goods are mostly in America.  And it doesnt make you better than me because you paid $2k real money for a make believe sword, it just makes you really stupid.  And Im not jealous of you Im laughing at you.

I understand why there is such animosity towards buying in-game items with money.  Because those that are against it feel it gives the purchasers an "advantage".

I've seen a number of quesitonable arguments ranging from it's a conflict of interest for SOE to profit (odd, since it's thier product....) to it's cheating by those that buy the item (again odd since the'yre not using an exploit to do so).

The bottom line is that money is time pure and simple.  I may not have the time that others have, but I have the money to replace that time, so I level the field for me since I am at a disadvantage to the grinder that puts in 8 to 10 hours a day.

In a game world where how powerful you are is ONLY related to how much you play and has nothing to do with how mature or intelligent you are it's a screwed paradigm.

Having folks purchase in-game items doesn't take away from the game for those that don't or can't.  If my buddy buys all his high level gear it doesn't mean I have less fun by hunting mobs for mine.

Oh, I know the argument, "if folks pay money then others will "work" to gain that item to sell, and camp the spots 24/7 to get that item."

I've seen complaints of this in WoW with "chinese farmers" working for IGE; and complaints when I used to play Shadowbane.  Ah, SB, there is an interesting example.

In shadowbane how good you were was soley related to gold.  You could easily cap out your level; but building a city, maintaing a guld took a lot of gold.  And the ONLY way to get gold was to farm.  And, farming took time... a lot of time.  That came was perfectly suited for buying gold.

I did when I played.  Because my guild was filled with adults; parents with jobs.  We did not have the time to have presence in the game 24 hours a day; we did have time-zone overlap so someone was almost always on, but getting gold was hard.  So, we resulted to buying it off EBAY.  This kept our city afloat.  We (my wife and I) traded money for time.

WoW is the same thing.  Exept BZ threw a monkey wrench into the mix with Bind on Pickup.  So, you REALLY do have to participate in that 8 to 10 hour long raid to get a chance to loot that epic BoP item.  Which means raid after raid after raid etc...

So, only those with tons of time have their full set.

And, these are also the folks that scream the loudest (in my experience) against purchasing things with real money.

I think hamstringing yoru business model by excluding this path to revenue is stupid for any business running an MMORPG.  Sony did the smart thing (buisiness wise) by enabling folks and allowing them to do what they would anyway while Sony got some profit from it.

oh well, that's my 2 cents worth

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Originally posted by iamsomeguy
I understand why there is such animosity towards buying in-game items with money. Because those that are against it feel it gives the purchasers an "advantage".
I've seen a number of quesitonable arguments ranging from it's a conflict of interest for SOE to profit (odd, since it's thier product....) to it's cheating by those that buy the item (again odd since the'yre not using an exploit to do so).

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Actually most gold sellers are the ones doing the cheating if they use bots and such, to support gold sellers is in essence condoning thier cheating.

...but my opinion on the excuse that people don't want to spend hours grinding is odd because it seems to me the point of a MMORPG is to build up your character, not have everything handed to you. It's sorta like reading only the end of the book just because you don't have time to read the rest.

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Originally posted by Bhob

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Originally posted by iamsomeguy
I understand why there is such animosity towards buying in-game items with money. Because those that are against it feel it gives the purchasers an "advantage".
I've seen a number of quesitonable arguments ranging from it's a conflict of interest for SOE to profit (odd, since it's thier product....) to it's cheating by those that buy the item (again odd since the'yre not using an exploit to do so).

---

Actually most gold sellers are the ones doing the cheating if they use bots and such, to support gold sellers is in essence condoning thier cheating.

...but my opinion on the excuse that people don't want to spend hours grinding is odd because it seems to me the point of a MMORPG is to build up your character, not have everything handed to you. It's sorta like reading only the end of the book just because you don't have time to read the rest.

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Yup Ive said it 1000 times, its the fault of the devs for not stopping this problem at its source and that is the bot farmers. I would say less than 5% of the gold on ebay is got by genuine players...

As for the "grind" well it looks like some players have lost the plot too..... ITS NOT MEANT TO BE A GRIND ITS A GAME ITS MEANT TO BE FUN!!

Geeez Louise doesnt anyone remember FUN ???

If the devs made games that werent a mindless grind fest there would be no pharming, there would be no out of game sales etc etc etc yada yada yada.... If it was fun to play and level up people would of course prefer to do that..... FUG people its not rocket surgery...

Grinding game system = players wanting to bypass the grind = out of game sales

Fun game system = players wanting to play = dramatically reduced market for out of game sales

I do not think that this can be separated. The "feel" of having a really powerfull character on a server where its perfectly legal to buy anything you want in-game for real cash is not the same as having one where its not allowed and less people dare to do it becouse of scams. A powerfull character on a Non-station exchange server would be more valueable to me than one on a station exchange server i.e.

But i have left Mmorpgs alltogether, it all sounds so far from reality. It IS possible for SOE to make 58413905849130854903158 plat on those servers by only snapping their fingers or something. Think about that

This thread is a good example why group minds and indipendent minds can't get along. Group minds insist doing things precisely as they are told, and define their self-worth by comparing themselves to others within the context of those directives. Instead of questioning authority, they actively seek authority figures to obey, and only pick on their inferiors, according to the rules handed from above. No solution will help because, in the end, all their arguments come down to bragging rights. True, we could prevent inflation by making games fun enough to play and perhaps setting base prices for the most basic items; but it doesn't help, because that is not why group minds play these games. I said it once, and I say it again: they play to extend their penis.