General Discussion

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Originally posted by JediMaya
 I'm glad you wanted to start over.  Many of us don't want to start over....especially like me, who were finally getting to the Jedi class.  Maybe you think it's great at "low levels" but who in their right mind wants to play a low level character all their life?  How many times can you see the same missions over and over and over again?  Is doing the Rebel Mission more exciting the second or third time around? I have seen Jabba's Palace with three different characters.  I finally found one I really wanted to be Jedi and poof, SOE says, "We have changed all the rules.  Start again at the beginning."  Come on...if that's the case, then maybe they should have just wiped the player database and made everyone start over.

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I didn't say you had to start over. I said I did. Being introduced to the system, bit by bit, really does ease the translation. Even if you start the new system at max level, you're still a novice and need to relearn pretty much everything - and the whole combat level thing may be quite foreign if you didn't spend those 80 levels learning the ins and outs of it. Chances are, you'd try to play the NEW system the same way you played the OLD system, then get frustrated that it wasn't working the same. I didn't have to go through it, but I have enough faith in the human ability to adapt to think that everyone is capable of doing it if they have to. It just might be more frustrating than fun at first, and you may not be willing to give the new system a chance.

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For your information, my spouse was making money like crazy before he quit because people wanted chef food and he was Master Chef, however, it was impossible for him to get his character from place to place to get resources with no armor.  We haven't touched how they made it impossible not to get attacked outside of a mercant's tent on Dantooine.  Not everyone was a combat class.

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It's dangerous living on the fringe. However, with the new patch, not only is it possible for anyone to use camo kits, they've also made it so grey conned mobs don't attack - and since your level is set to the highest level of the people in your group, you can see practically the entire universe at no risk by grouping with a level 80 friend. And considering how much money the crafting classes make compared to the combat ones, they can afford a camo kit and a fast vehicle just fine.

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Let's face it, SOE tried to save a buck by taking an existing engine and pushed and shoved to make it fit.  It's a square peg in a round hole.  Yes, it was a year in the making with many people saying there were problems and they were unhappy.  It makes you wonder what they did for a year if they used an existing engine and adapted it.

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What the hell are you going on about? I play EQ2. Got that nifty station pass. Tried out a Froglok yesterday. SWG is NOTHING like EQ2. EQ2 has stuff like heroic opportunities, with an almost too balanced grouping system (for some content, you must have at least one of the four archtypes to succeed, no matter what), and an emphasis on magic attacks.

Meanwhile, SWG has a plethora of classes that you can mix and match together. Do you want a bounty hunter that has some pistoleer skills and some medic stuff? Do it. They changed many of the skills to be cross profession compatible, meaning that you can use a pistol skill with a rifle and vice versa. There is a much greater emphasis on ranged attacks. You get experience based on what skill you used, not just combat and trade. Only use rifles and only get better at rifles. There's only three types of armor, with only the appearances varying. The core equipment is still a majority player made.

They play completely different - unless, of course, you are talking about only the most shallow foundation that the two systems share, namely the fact that the icons have warm up timers rather than a queue and combat is based on level. In that case, you might as well call City of Heroes, World of Warcraft, Guild Wars, and Dark Age of Camelot EQ2 clones as well. They all use levels and timer based attacks, yet they all use it differently - and SWG still has way more customization, depth, and fun than any of those other games combined.

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I am not saying "Make it like it was before...what I want is a game where when it is 2 am in the US, I can still play the game even if it has to be by myself."

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You can. There is certain content which may be locked out to you without a large group, but you can still do plenty of stuff. For instance, at 4am today, I spent 30 minutes killing ro-roos on Kashyyyk, flying duty missions, checking my harvesters, and rearranging my space yacht. I got this really cool bantha head trophy that's bigger than I am that I just had to wedge around a corner to surprise guests. SWG has more non-combat gameplay than any other MMORPG, and that has not changed with the CU. As for the combat stuff, I've had no problems soloing, except early on before I got my first elite class and some armor.

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It just seems that SOE is saying, "We don't care if we lose players.  After all, SWG wasn't our money maker anyways and then we don't have to deal with LucasArts anymore."

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It seems to me that they are saying "I know you are upset now, but the CU is for the future of SWG. A little pain now for a much brighter future." In fact, I think they really did say that in one of the interviews. They care if they lose players, but they are looking at the big picture. They are looking at what the game will be like in two years, not tomorrow. I recommend leaving the game for a while. Take a break and see what outside looks like. Come back when the next expansion is released, when the bugs will be less damaging, and your frustration levels will be such that you can deal with change a little more gracefully.

OUCH .... this was not an article, that was hero worship. And that is coming from one of the most active supporters of SWG and the combat revamp.

COME ON, this is SOE. Squeeze their tender bits about the errors that were made. No wonder negative comments on the forum are dying down - these threads are getting deleted and the people that cancelled their accounts are losing forum access.

Where are the questions about often pushing patches live too soon with not enough testing ?

Where are the questions about long overdue bug fixes and profession fixes (ask them about the smuggler revamp promised in autumn 2003) !?!

Lets see some journalism here, PULLEZZEEE !!!!!!!!

have fun

Erillion

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Originally posted by Squidi

Honestly, yes. I guess you've never really had any experience dealing with public opinion, because the things that would fly between friends will end up murdering you in the public arena. I know what you want - you want some sort of assurance that everything is going to be okay. I think it is. I've had more fun playing SWG in the past couple weeks than ever before. However, SOE can't say that because it will just end up being fodder for the pissed off folks. You have to understand that nothing SOE can say or do at this point - even reverting to the system before the CU - can save them in the eyes of some very vocal people. The thread in the forums where they announced the multipassenger vehicles turned into a flame war because we got new and long wanted content rather than fixing bugs. Honestly, all they can do is wait it out because everything they say, no matter how little, will just be used against them tenfold.
If they admit a mistake, that just throws gas on the fire as now people will have some sort of official backing for their beliefs - no matter how twisted or misguided they may be. Suddenly, the CU doesn't just suck in their eyes, the Devs admitted it and you'd have to be a complete fool to disagree with evidence like that. If they say, mistake or not, sit down and shut up because this is how we're going to do it, you'll have a bunch of players getting upset at their arrogance and not listening to the customer base. Frankly, saying nothing will result in the vocal minority getting frustrated and leaving sooner when they don't get the attention they need. SOE is handling this situation the only way they can, and though it frustrates people, it is the approach that will lead to a happy equilibrium quickest.
One of the things I've always liked about SWG is that the developers have been really open about the development process, and indeed have tried to involve the players as much as possible - even when it wasn't feasible. This has perhaps been their biggest downfall as it frustrates players who are used to getting their way, as well as frustrates those who get excited about an in development idea that doesn't come out quite like they were expecting (or worse, getting cancelled). They told us about the Smuggler Revamp that they wanted to do, and I have no doubt that they did and still do want to work on it. But priorities are priorities, and the CU (which affects Smugglers) took precedence over a single class. And yet, I still see people complaining that there has yet to be a Smuggler Revamp - completely ignoring all the other new features and bugfixes that SOE has managed while still pumping out both a CU and an expansion pack. If they had never mentioned a Smuggler Revamp, there'd be nothing to complain about. I've seen docs on the new slicing mini-game they're working on, so I expect that the Smuggler Revamp may not be too far away - but patience can be so difficult when we want something so intensely.
SOE is learning the hard way how that kind of openness with the players can bite them in the ass hard. I've been on other MMORPGs, like WoW, where the developers never announced anything, responded to any of the complaints of the playerbase, or said "hey, we're working on it" - and I found the lack of information to be far more frustrating than SOE having to say, "we wanted to do this, but it wasn't as feasible as we suspected". I think SOE is brave for being so open, and I applaud them. As both an ex-game developer and now someone who has to deal with a bloodthirsty public on a daily basis, I not only understand what they are going through, but I am filled with empathy at their plight. They suffer the worst attacks and insults I've seen in a long time, and for a game they obviously believe in and want to make better in the most sincere way possible. I've yet to see another developer who cared more than these guys, and it really gives me faith that everything's going to turn out right. I don't think you guys appreciate how deeply the wounds you cut go. It's been a war against the morale of the devs for months now, and the onslaught has lessened but not disappeared. Were they the developers you guys think they are, they wouldn't be working weekends to fix bugs and add new features to the game. I know I wouldn't. I'd tell all you ungrateful bastard to go fuck yourself, but they haven't and they won't.
Mistakes were made, but they made the right decisions where it mattered most - even though they had to step on some toes to do it. They aren't perfect, but they do what has to be done. The SWG of today is almost nothing like the SWG that was first released - it's better. And it will keep getting better, not because they developers are falling just short of expectations, but because they are aiming for them in the first place. Just have a little patience and go a little easier on the devs. SWG has never been in a better place.

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Alright, since I am not half asleep now and post coffee I will try to give abit more of an explanation to this over my original post last night.

I was not looking for any assurance what so ever. I don't need that, I see the new players coming in, I see my own guild almost unnaffected population wise by this. We have lost a few, but hardly like I see many others making it out that player towns are ghost towns now (they always were, because they are busy PLAYING the game), and guilds suddenly vanishing over night.

I also think you completely misread what I said, because the basis of what you were answering me about was completely wrong from my retorical question. I wasn't asking if it was too much for them to admit the CU was a mistake. I have already stated time and time again I am for the CU, however, I do not approve of their methods nor the state in which the CU was pushed.

My point was however that in many of the Q&A's and articles they have pushed since the CU they have tried to make it appear rather perfect when it was pushed WAY to early, hardly resembling what they did speak with the players about as what was coming which was a redo of the HAM system, AND designed in parallel with another expansion. They were VERY clear when they decided to release JTL before the CU that there would NOTHING else until they were done with the CU. They would put all manpower forth to fix the combat system the moment JTL was up and running smoothly. That was not the case and I cannot see how you say you can be a programmer and that you LIKE the way the developers handle the game. The SWG development team is one of the laziest I have ever seen in the market. They have left some of the most rediculous little bugs in the game for years that anyone else would have QA'ed a LONG time ago.

Their communication with the playerbase about the CU was below par and innacurate. And by the time they did start asking for everyone's opinion on it, it was far too late to change it. They had decided on what they wanted, and even the simplest things weren't getting changed at the players request. They took a "we changed our minds, this is how it is, deal with it" approach. And a huge patch that should have been considered beta was pushed live as "ready for release". Then LA made statements that the update wasn't being pushed now JUST before the new movie comes out, that was merely coincidence. They felt the patch was 100% ready for public consumption. No alpha phase, no closed beta, just from developers desk to open beta, no time for any major bug fixing or player input to even matter, bam, pushed live. The only way LA and SOE suffer from being too open is in their misinformations on what they are going too do. They will all too well say far too much and end up doing a 360 when the time comes.

I have a very hard time beleiving you are a programmer and you find the quality of their work sufficient. I program and database engineering and if my work was to the quality of theirs I would have been out of a job before I ever even finished the product. And its very obvious the developers have taken the typical stance that programmers often take of "It won't work that way, we can't do that, we know best how it should be".

As for patience, I have only been playing this game a few months. I have followed it since it started developement. However I refused to buy it after I saw how the development was going and their original attempts at advertising a first expansion for the game before it was ever even released. An expansion that originally was supposed to be the entire other half of the game (space travel). I will let those that have played since release answer on the patience issues, because I beleive they have shown an enormous amount of patience to a company that has taken over 2 years to get their act together and get the game where it was supposed to be when they started paying.

I may sound like another anti-cu person to you. It really doesn't matter to me if I do. However I love the game, I am playing it nightly. It took me from EQ II which at the moment I am hardly playing anymore. Sony and Lucas Arts will continue to get my money. However don't sit here and tell me either Sony or Lucas Arts deserves praise or gratification for what they have done. They were attempting to fix issues that go back to its release and they are just now getting up off their backsides to get around too. In any other market how many companies could get away with releasing a product that they were finally fixing fundamental issues with 2 years later do you think would survive? I would HOPE they were in a better place by now. The game should be on cruise control by now with just expansions coming out twice a year instead of this type of poor business practices and exceptionally poor quality control. Another company tried doing that and they are still suffering for it right now, their name is Turbine.

And YES they could have admitted some mistakes. NOT that it was a mistake, but that they have made some along the way instead of trying to push their rose water down my throat about how great the CU went and how happy the "real" players are that have spoken to them via more private means. I think alittle admission would go a LONG way with all the fans that want to beleive in their ability to give them a good product and star wars experience. However, they, like me are about fed up with all statements that are being released about how great this is, and how happy we should be about it.

My question is this, why didnt you ask them about the real issue here and what destroyed the game.... DAMAGE MULTIPLIER SYSTEM.

Every single issue can be traced to it. Fact is, SWG players loved the game bcause it was skill-based. Yes the creatures technically had levels hidden behind their color codes. However, they always hit the same ie. no damage multiplier. And i could always improve myself. Better skill tapes, ubber armor, exceptional weapons, a few % higher food items, etc. There was always something to strive for.

Now the game is pointless. I brought this up to Tiggs and two other devs at Celebration 3. Their response was "interesting, send your prof rep those concerns" They totally blew me off.

I dont care if the CU is bug-free or if they somehow fix it to where i can solo again. Doesnt matter cause a level-based game with a damage multiplier means all elite crafted goods are no better than junky ones. Food is now pointless as well. Sure some action regen food will make things go a half-sec faster but it cant change the outcome of any predetermined level=based battle.

The game now is just a dumbed down version of other level based games now. The potential everyone always spoke about was in reference to the bugs and balance issues. Now thanks to the CU, we still have bugs and balance issues, just in a dumbed down inferior system.

And SOE is full of it. The game in most peeps opinions has lost 1/3 of its player base. All servers are on light loads now. Yes there are a few newbs in starter cities, but we all know that most wont stay around. Those type of players are fickle and will leave for the next flavor of the month. If they were such big star wars fans, they certainly wouldnt have waited 2 yeats to try SWG.

 

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Originally posted by Erillion
OUCH .... this was not an article, that was hero worship. And that is coming from one of the most active supporters of SWG and the combat revamp.
COME ON, this is SOE. Squeeze their tender bits about the errors that were made. No wonder negative comments on the forum are dying down - these threads are getting deleted and the people that cancelled their accounts are losing forum access.
Where are the questions about often pushing patches live too soon with not enough testing ?
Where are the questions about long overdue bug fixes and profession fixes (ask them about the smuggler revamp promised in autumn 2003) !?!
Lets see some journalism here, PULLEZZEEE !!!!!!!!
have fun
Erillion

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Thank you E, I had a feeling this would be too much for even you.

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Originally posted by JediMaya
It's not that CU worked. It was shoved down player's throats, and when we saw that nothing we said to SoE worked, we moved on. For the guy who loves the CU, he must group fight A LOT! Soloing has been totally eliminated in the game unless you want no experience. I have a spouse who makes the food buffs and even he has lost all the enjoyment in the game. He is looking for a new game to play.
SWG had a fabulous crafting system and was a fun game for people no matter what time they played. I am not the traditional in the US American player and I am very choosy who I group with as I really hate dying. I tried SWG for about a week after the CU came out. I tried