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General Gaming  » Is Gaming Leaving Gamers Behind? [linked article]

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  lizardbones

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

 
OP  8/29/14 9:37:28 AM#1

http://www.buzzfeed.com/josephbernstein/gaming-is-leaving-gamers-behind#shh77j

 

If you have time, read the article.  I think it's interesting, and something that is very near and dear to the hearts of many people posting on these forums.

 

I think the process that's being described in the article is happening at a smaller level within the MMORPG genre, and probably at a much faster pace than the gaming genre in general.  People on these forums have even described it, more than once if I'm not mistaken. 

 

When MMORPGs first hit the scene, they were populated by a small group of like minded people.  "Small" here is relative.  There were nearly a million people playing MMORPGs in the West before MMORPGs really expanded.  However, advances in technology, popularity and most importantly, funding have pushed MMORPGs more into the mainstream of gaming.  Now there are people who do not self identify as an "MMORPG Player", and they are just as important if not more important to developers than the original players because there are more of them, and they are certainly willing to spend money.  This has lead to feeling disenfranchised by the old guard.  We have all read the forums and the posts.  The verbiage can be colorful, but the vitriol tells about the feeling behind what's said.  The genre is "growing up", and leaving the original players behind.

 

What do you think?  Is gaming "Growing Up"?  Is the MMORPG Genre "Growing Up"?  Are a lot of people getting left behind, or are those people refusing to move ahead?

 

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  iridescence

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1491

8/29/14 10:00:08 AM#2

I don't know There are some similarities but also many differences. I think the pining for older MMOs we see here is more about people who used to play pen and paper RPGs (or still do) and want that kind of experience in an MMO vs people who never played them or don't like them. The backlash against Anita S. and things like that seems to be driven by a lot of just bitterness and sexism (even if there are also some valid reasons to criticise her a lot of the backlash is just pure hateful spite). It seems like these people (safe to assume mainly  teenage boys) are not so worried that games will not target them anymore but that maybe games will target some other group as well. I think old MMORPG players are really getting "left behind" (at least by the mainstream) but gaming in general is just expanding to be less of a teenaged bro-fest (although this is a *very* slow process). The latter is a positive trend and let's face it teenage boys will always be a major market for games, they never have to worry about being totally abandoned like old-style MMORPG players largely have been. 

 

 

  DoomsDay01

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/14/08
Posts: 788

8/29/14 10:18:41 AM#3

Sadly its not "growing up". If anything it is growing sideways. The mmo genre is not as it once was which was creating a game that the creators wanted to play. It is now about creating a game that will try to bring in the most money. Its obvious when you look at the game play, no real grouping of any kind, stop, group up to take out a big mob then see ya. The mmo genre cant even call itself mmos anymore. They are nothing more than single player rpgs that require an internet connection to run and lets you see others playing their version of their single player rpg at  the same time.

 

They have lost their focus of true co-op fantasy gaming to nothing more than plain greed. Sad but true. The genre is leaving behind the old guard, as you say, but its not for the better of gaming, its for greed only now and that just saddens me. We still have the small indie groups trying to make good games but compared to the AAA gaming companies, the difference in quality is like comparing a prius to a corvette. They just dont have the knowledge or talent to pull it off on such a small budget.

  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 3173

8/29/14 10:43:21 AM#4

The phrase "growing up" is an emotionally loaded one, better to go with "evolving" or "changing" 

 

This topic is one of my favorites, been beating this dead horse for years ! Mainstream online gaming has definitely shifted focus. A few years ago, when there seemed to be no hope on the horizon for us sandbox gamers, I steadfastly argued that sooner or later a bigger developer would focus on this niche, because it remained an untapped opportunity.

 

Now, several years later, we have Archeage, The Repopulation, Black Desert and EQN all in production. All of them seem to have more or less sandboxy features. The wheel has turned full-circle, there is light at the end of the tunnel. 

 

However, mainstream MMO efforts like Destiny and The Division seem set on a different path. Classic themepark is still strong with WoW, ESO and Wildstar leading the pack.

 

More variety, more focus on specific playstyles, all good things in my eyes. The fact that the total MMO player base has grown to the point where it actually becomes possible to market an AAA MMO at a niche and still be profitable.

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 5250

8/29/14 10:58:33 AM#5
Originally posted by lizardbones

http://www.buzzfeed.com/josephbernstein/gaming-is-leaving-gamers-behind#shh77j

 

If you have time, read the article.  I think it's interesting, and something that is very near and dear to the hearts of many people posting on these forums.

 

I think the process that's being described in the article is happening at a smaller level within the MMORPG genre, and probably at a much faster pace than the gaming genre in general.  People on these forums have even described it, more than once if I'm not mistaken. 

 

When MMORPGs first hit the scene, they were populated by a small group of like minded people.  "Small" here is relative.  There were nearly a million people playing MMORPGs in the West before MMORPGs really expanded.  However, advances in technology, popularity and most importantly, funding have pushed MMORPGs more into the mainstream of gaming.  Now there are people who do not self identify as an "MMORPG Player", and they are just as important if not more important to developers than the original players because there are more of them, and they are certainly willing to spend money.  This has lead to feeling disenfranchised by the old guard.  We have all read the forums and the posts.  The verbiage can be colorful, but the vitriol tells about the feeling behind what's said.  The genre is "growing up", and leaving the original players behind.

 

What do you think?  Is gaming "Growing Up"?  Is the MMORPG Genre "Growing Up"?  Are a lot of people getting left behind, or are those people refusing to move ahead?

 

Video games have been around since the 70s  with games like Pong., Then Atari 2600, and Intellivision, And then PC gaming. etc, etc. So, for 40 years now, video gamers have rotated in and out. The argument that EQ1 and Vanilla WoW players in their 20s who are now in their 30s, grew up and no longer have the time to play doesn't account for the  players who were then 10 years old watching Daddy play WoW, who are now playing WoW themselves.

I think it's more about online gaming becoming big(er) business. Nothing more.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  lizardbones

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

 
OP  8/29/14 11:50:35 AM#6
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by lizardbones

http://www.buzzfeed.com/josephbernstein/gaming-is-leaving-gamers-behind#shh77j

 

If you have time, read the article.  I think it's interesting, and something that is very near and dear to the hearts of many people posting on these forums.

 

I think the process that's being described in the article is happening at a smaller level within the MMORPG genre, and probably at a much faster pace than the gaming genre in general.  People on these forums have even described it, more than once if I'm not mistaken. 

 

When MMORPGs first hit the scene, they were populated by a small group of like minded people.  "Small" here is relative.  There were nearly a million people playing MMORPGs in the West before MMORPGs really expanded.  However, advances in technology, popularity and most importantly, funding have pushed MMORPGs more into the mainstream of gaming.  Now there are people who do not self identify as an "MMORPG Player", and they are just as important if not more important to developers than the original players because there are more of them, and they are certainly willing to spend money.  This has lead to feeling disenfranchised by the old guard.  We have all read the forums and the posts.  The verbiage can be colorful, but the vitriol tells about the feeling behind what's said.  The genre is "growing up", and leaving the original players behind.

 

What do you think?  Is gaming "Growing Up"?  Is the MMORPG Genre "Growing Up"?  Are a lot of people getting left behind, or are those people refusing to move ahead?

 

Video games have been around since the 70s  with games like Pong., Then Atari 2600, and Intellivision, And then PC gaming. etc, etc. So, for 40 years now, video gamers have rotated in and out. The argument that EQ1 and Vanilla WoW players in their 20s who are now in their 30s, grew up and no longer have the time to play doesn't account for the  players who were then 10 years old watching Daddy play WoW, who are now playing WoW themselves.

I think it's more about online gaming becoming big(er) business. Nothing more.

 

The article was coming at it from the direction of the "original" gamers not changing, but the industry changing around them to include many other people, especially those people who would not traditionally be considered "gamers" or who wouldn't even self identify as "gamers".

 

I was coming at it from the same direction: the industry is changing, and including more people, but the "original" players are not changing.  I think iridescence has a good point, in that with the gaming genre in general there are still many different types of games, and "gamers" are not being left behind so much as they are turning into total @sshats.  With the MMORPG genre, those "original" players are being left behind because there are fewer types of MMORPGs and not so many "old school" MMORPGs to play.

 

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  seamonkey001

Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/14
Posts: 12

8/29/14 12:44:37 PM#7

This is a touchy area due to the nature of the subject. I believe that you cannot blame the gamers of old on how new games are developed and how the old ones become more rounded instead of a niche group. You are talking about people that grew up on MMORPG games that where truly about roleplaying and becoming part of a group of people that was feared by evil. There is no longer the case, you can jump into any game and a traditional MMORPG has turned into an ARPG with a social media aspect added in to brag about your accomplishments. And it seems like people take on the elitist complex was too easily and don’t think about helping and just leave the new people high and dry. But you have to also think that developers, producers, and the industry in general are trying to get as much money as possible for as long as they can. Not saying that it’s a bad thing, WoW is still doing very well, GW2 is still fun to play, and countless others are still thriving or staying alive. But when you get down to the beginning, nothing will ever be as independent as EQ. I believe that is why to first gamers are feeling like they are being left behind because the games where originally made for them instead of a broad audience. I think that the companies should start reinventing the whole genre because there is a middle ground that can be made here but a company has to go for it instead of relying on the old strategy.

  Harafnir

Elite Member

Joined: 2/18/04
Posts: 1382

8/29/14 12:58:25 PM#8

Weird analogy, and weird thinking. "Its like movies, but only science fiction! Now its all kinds of movies!" The correct analogy would be:

Ffor 50 years a group of people have loved going to the movies, to see all kinds of stories. Then, suddenly compaines start to focus on a new consumer group, an untapped market to see where that will lead. So they begin to make movies for people that do not like movies. And it is quite succesful, a lot of people that do not like movies and do not have the attention span to sit still and actually watch the movie for any length of time, suddenly start to buy tickets. Only problem is, all the people that actually did like movies have very few movies to see nowadays. And they get upset not a single company care about the actual movie lovers, and they feel they have nothing to see that is not catered to uninterested people with a short attention span.

 

In short... We wanted more Easy Rider, Star Wars and The Iron Cross. Instead we have a full market with slightly different American Pie.

There is a more correct movie analogy

"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"

  Ludwik

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/14
Posts: 254

8/29/14 1:25:38 PM#9
Good article. While I understand the premise, I have to disagree with it.

Classic games are still around. Someone can always pick up an old Nintendo or Dreamcast and still play those games. But it goes beyond that.

With a little bit of imagination and effort, someone can simulate that classic feel. The new conviences that have been put into games don't have to be used. Meta builds and BIS gear don't have to be run. It's possible to bring that old school EQ style to a game like GW2 if that's what someone really wants to do.

But people don't do that. They instead choose to come to forums, like this one, and cry about new generation gaming.

Classic MMO gamers haven't been left behind by the gaming, that experience is still out there if they want to pursue it.

They've actually been left behind by a new generation of gamers that doesn't want to play with them.

That's the one message I wish I could beat into the heads of some of the regular posters around here. MMOs are becoming more solo oriented because no one wants to play with a lazy, whiney jerk. So coming on here and being a lazy, whiney jerk isn't exactly helping the cause.
  Dr_Shivinski

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 209

8/29/14 1:36:38 PM#10
Originally posted by Ludwik
Good article. While I understand the premise, I have to disagree with it.

Classic games are still around. Someone can always pick up an old Nintendo or Dreamcast and still play those games. But it goes beyond that.

With a little bit of imagination and effort, someone can simulate that classic feel. The new conviences that have been put into games don't have to be used. Meta builds and BIS gear don't have to be run. It's possible to bring that old school EQ style to a game like GW2 if that's what someone really wants to do.

But people don't do that. They instead choose to come to forums, like this one, and cry about new generation gaming.

Classic MMO gamers haven't been left behind by the gaming, that experience is still out there if they want to pursue it.

They've actually been left behind by a new generation of gamers that doesn't want to play with them.

That's the one message I wish I could beat into the heads of some of the regular posters around here. MMOs are becoming more solo oriented because no one wants to have put in the the time and effort to develop friendships outside of their 3 man arena team. 

Fixed that up for you buddy.

Here Siggy Siggy!

  VonTakala

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/30/11
Posts: 223

Wookiee. Jetpack. Lifeday moomoo. Flying into the SWG sunset on Lok.

8/29/14 1:54:06 PM#11

Let's say gaming like AOL's Neverwinter in the '90s, or UO or SWG attracted MMO players and designers and pushed all kinds of new ideas and content.

Then EA / SOE / insert-megacorp-name-here sees this as an 'opportunity' to monetize things.

Yes you've got huge games now, but is a monetized cash-shop glorified-Farmville 'game' really a traditional MMO or game in any regular sense (?) I'm still not sure how SWTOR is an MMO game, I've played single-player games that had more interaction, and that's just one example of many I can give.

If the internet went back to being like cable TV, with pay-as-you-go models, and an internet 'fast lane' and RIAA / censorship of people trying to create private servers and emulators, would that be the genre is now 'growing up'?

This isn't 'growing up' it's just bad, bad, bad..... It's the reason I'm irked by so many so-called 'games' now. :( They're not really games, there's no freeform to them, they're not interactive or immersive in the sense of players having fun interacting, it's cash-shops masquerading as gaming and is really disappointing.

/end_of_rant

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 5250

8/29/14 2:41:35 PM#12
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by lizardbones

http://www.buzzfeed.com/josephbernstein/gaming-is-leaving-gamers-behind#shh77j

 

If you have time, read the article.  I think it's interesting, and something that is very near and dear to the hearts of many people posting on these forums.

 

I think the process that's being described in the article is happening at a smaller level within the MMORPG genre, and probably at a much faster pace than the gaming genre in general.  People on these forums have even described it, more than once if I'm not mistaken. 

 

When MMORPGs first hit the scene, they were populated by a small group of like minded people.  "Small" here is relative.  There were nearly a million people playing MMORPGs in the West before MMORPGs really expanded.  However, advances in technology, popularity and most importantly, funding have pushed MMORPGs more into the mainstream of gaming.  Now there are people who do not self identify as an "MMORPG Player", and they are just as important if not more important to developers than the original players because there are more of them, and they are certainly willing to spend money.  This has lead to feeling disenfranchised by the old guard.  We have all read the forums and the posts.  The verbiage can be colorful, but the vitriol tells about the feeling behind what's said.  The genre is "growing up", and leaving the original players behind.

 

What do you think?  Is gaming "Growing Up"?  Is the MMORPG Genre "Growing Up"?  Are a lot of people getting left behind, or are those people refusing to move ahead?

 

Video games have been around since the 70s  with games like Pong., Then Atari 2600, and Intellivision, And then PC gaming. etc, etc. So, for 40 years now, video gamers have rotated in and out. The argument that EQ1 and Vanilla WoW players in their 20s who are now in their 30s, grew up and no longer have the time to play doesn't account for the  players who were then 10 years old watching Daddy play WoW, who are now playing WoW themselves.

I think it's more about online gaming becoming big(er) business. Nothing more.

 

The article was coming at it from the direction of the "original" gamers not changing, but the industry changing around them to include many other people, especially those people who would not traditionally be considered "gamers" or who wouldn't even self identify as "gamers".

 

I was coming at it from the same direction: the industry is changing, and including more people, but the "original" players are not changing.  I think iridescence has a good point, in that with the gaming genre in general there are still many different types of games, and "gamers" are not being left behind so much as they are turning into total @sshats.  With the MMORPG genre, those "original" players are being left behind because there are fewer types of MMORPGs and not so many "old school" MMORPGs to play.

 

I understood that. But that's where I was coming from with the business end of it. They are trying to appeal to bigger and bigger groups

As far as the original group of gamers, Well, they have changed. Habits, playstyle, time, etc. They've changed. But in their place an new generation of gamers has taken up residence. And they would have the same habits as the original MMO generation had. That's my point. The faces are different, but gamers are gamers. 

I think the largest part of the change of the genre comes from trying to expand the market to draw in groups that weren't or maybe even shouldn't be part of the MMORPG genre.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  Azaron_Nightblade

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/27/12
Posts: 1377

8/29/14 6:43:14 PM#13

Thanks, Lizardbones, it made for an interesting read.

And I agree that games are growing in diversity, which is something I personally applaude, but there are always some who don't handle change too well.

My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3481

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

8/30/14 4:39:46 AM#14


Originally posted by lizardbones
http://www.buzzfeed.com/josephbernstein/gaming-is-leaving-gamers-behind#shh77j

If you have time, read the article.  I think it's interesting, and something that is very near and dear to the hearts of many people posting on these forums.

I think the process that's being described in the article is happening at a smaller level within the MMORPG genre, and probably at a much faster pace than the gaming genre in general.  People on these forums have even described it, more than once if I'm not mistaken. 

When MMORPGs first hit the scene, they were populated by a small group of like minded people.  "Small" here is relative.  There were nearly a million people playing MMORPGs in the West before MMORPGs really expanded.  However, advances in technology, popularity and most importantly, funding have pushed MMORPGs more into the mainstream of gaming.  Now there are people who do not self identify as an "MMORPG Player", and they are just as important if not more important to developers than the original players because there are more of them, and they are certainly willing to spend money.  This has lead to feeling disenfranchised by the old guard.  We have all read the forums and the posts.  The verbiage can be colorful, but the vitriol tells about the feeling behind what's said.  The genre is "growing up", and leaving the original players behind.

What do you think?  Is gaming "Growing Up"?  Is the MMORPG Genre "Growing Up"?  Are a lot of people getting left behind, or are those people refusing to move ahead



Guilty as charged! Though I do not consider myself a "gamer."

In the article, they used a terrible analogy with movies:


A thought experiment: Imagine, if you will, that movies were only about 50 years old. Imagine that movies, technologically complex and requiring enormously expensive equipment to make, were invented by upper middle class and predominantly white computer engineers at big research universities, the only places with the requisite resources and brains. Imagine that the first movies, because they were made by said 1960s computer engineers, were only science fiction.

What they fail to realize is that video games have STOPPED making the movie analogy Sci-Fi movies. Almost ALL video games are now made for the greatest audience/consumer.

I am not against varying video games being made. I am against the snub of the developers to the players that enjoyed "the old games" and helped them "expand" their customer base to include "the masses." Masses that had no interest in video games in the first place, and just do not have the time that video games were created to waste.

Movies, on the other hand, are still 2-3 hours long. They have NOT made them shorter, melded them into the "Reader's Digest" version for those that lack the 2-3 hours to sit placidly and get the whole story. How would the reaction be if movies stopped being so long and ONLY short films were available?

In my opinion, Video Games were never intended to appeal to "the masses." They were created by geeks and nerds who had a love of fiction and computers. These are 2 very limited subjects, and NOT for everyone. Now we have "games" that involve pestering "friends" to help you out (Facebook games) and so obviously made with one thing in mind: Make Money! Cash shops and artificial time sinks alleviated by real cash makes me sick. But, hooray for the Gaming industry as they make more money, boast many more players, and generally suck hind-tittie (pure opinion).

Creativity is now done for marketing/selling instead of pure joy of it.
Developer: "I have a cool idea for some new armor and weapons!"
Publisher: "Great! How much can we sell it for?"

Video games have left this "gamer" behind. But, I still have my old gaming discs and can enjoy the games I enjoyed decades ago, sans MMORPGs (which have morphed into this new crap) :)

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3481

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

8/30/14 4:45:47 AM#15


Originally posted by Ludwik
That's the one message I wish I could beat into the heads of some of the regular posters around here. MMOs are becoming more solo oriented because no one wants to play with a lazy, whiney jerk. So coming on here and being a lazy, whiney jerk isn't exactly helping the cause.

Then why are you logging into a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE GAME?

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  lizardbones

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

 
OP  8/30/14 7:48:50 AM#16
I'm on my tablet, so I won't be quoting anyone. Given that the old guard players received the gameplay they paid for, is there any reason developers should continue to make games for that market segment? Are those gamers still owed something from a concluded business transaction?

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  lizardbones

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

 
OP  8/30/14 7:51:21 AM#17
'Old Guard' can refer to original players or to new players with the same tastes.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  iridescence

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1491

8/30/14 10:30:22 AM#18
Originally posted by lizardbones
I'm on my tablet, so I won't be quoting anyone. Given that the old guard players received the gameplay they paid for, is there any reason developers should continue to make games for that market segment? Are those gamers still owed something from a concluded business transaction?

Nah...No ones owes us shit. It's just the usual "If you want my business provide me with a product I want. If not I'll move on." The complaining in this forum is more like going back to an old neighborhood and finding it's totally changed. Different people and shops have moved in. Maybe a different social class than when you lived there. No sane person is gonna try to evict the new people or vandalize the property. It's just change and you have to live with it but it sucks and most people are not going to be happy about it and probably will talk about the "glory days" of that neighborhood to anyone who will listen.

 

That being said there are several smaller budget games in development that are looking really good so it's not all doom and gloom for the old school crowd.

 

  sumdumguy1

Elite Member

Joined: 2/20/11
Posts: 902

8/30/14 11:24:48 AM#19
Things are the way they are, either you like them or you don't and they are either success or not.  The great thing is no matter what you have a choice, play the games or enjoy the older ones.  The grey area is usually the ego being taken out for a walk.
  delta9

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/03/05
Posts: 297

8/30/14 11:33:06 AM#20

MMO, like anything that initially starts from a underground/less popular/niche  type of adaptation eventually hope to (in the sense of the companies not the players) become main stream and eventually they want to appeal to the masses - where the most $ is, which is why we see so many trying to emulate what has become the big number draw to the genre rather than making mmo like they used to be made

once in a while we get a developer brave enough to make something more fitting to the original style of mmo and those games usually stay underground/niche/less popular but generally more complicated, interesting and with a imo better calibre of player just like the "good old days"

the genre hasnt grown up, it has just in general, been taken over by greed

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