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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » Amazing article detailing the innovation of EQN and Storybricks

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326 posts found
  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15977

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

8/25/14 11:27:23 AM#41
Originally posted by Betaguy
Originally posted by azzamasin

 http://www.eqhammer.com/column/making-worlds-content-delivery-everquest-next

I think it's obvious that EQN will have amazing innovation features that have never been present in the genre. I think it is articles like this that prove it and anyone who thinks EQN isn't going to be innovative is fooling themselves for personal reasons all because I feel they are upset it isn't going to be a clone of what has come and gone and come again. Love the direction this game is taking but I'll not get too hyped till I see it in action for myself.

I think it is fairly obvious why Tenton Hammer and others have lauded over it's potential with unheralded and unprecedented awards!

 


EDIT: For some reason it isn't letting me link with the editor so just cut and paste.

Nothing innovative there, same o, same o with a different skin. Majority don't care about NPC's developing and story. That is a small percentage of the majority that will end up trying this game.

 

Oh wow, the inn keeper remembers me pissing him/her off. Yay!

WHo cares what the majority wants, and why do you think you can speak for them?

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Maelwydd

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 1169

8/25/14 11:28:43 AM#42
Originally posted by flizzer
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by flizzer

Of course I am excited and anxious to play this , but I do fear this is a lot of pre release hype.  After all, some of this type of talk was heard prior to the release of GW2. I play GW2 and do love the game but I do admit the pre release hype and the actual gameplay differ in degrees of magnitude.  How will EQN actually play?   

Im still not clear if anything described is really all that different.  Players will now have choices. Okay,  They will still need to add these content choices in to the game.  Whether you call it an update, expansion, or whatever, developers will need to add these changes in to the game and players will be waiting for the next content addition similar to the way we already do.   It almost seems like they are just calling these systems by different names and trying to convince us they are new and different.  I hope they are. I will be there on day one to play this game and hope I am completely wrong.  Perhaps I am just a jaded gamer who has listened to much too much pre release game hype to believe what I read.

A small example.

The developers put a gold mine into the game.

Now every faction, group or individual that is affected by the desire for wealth has been dynamically changed by the introduction of this gold mine. Not only that but with every faction, group or individual affected, there will be a knock on effect with those that are not interested simply through their interaction with those that are. If you have thousand of factions, groups and individuals that are all interacting then any change could potentially have a very dramatic effect.

In essence Storybricks allows for a world to operate with a very real 'butterfly effect' going on.

Hard to imagine the complexity of all the content that will be needed to allow for this.  GW2 claims they have teams working on all aspects of the game.  How many would be needed for all these different choices?   How often would we get updates?  Yes, they would need to be updates. You might not like the word and SOE apparently doesnt but when you add content to the game you update.  Again, I forsee players just waiting on the next additional content update to the game so they can play with more choices.  Not a bad thing if SOE can deliver, for sure, but I feel we are being bamboozled with the language and superlatives used in describing these systems. 

Can't remember if it was mentioned in one of the panels or during a chat with one of the devs but the system is designed to work with relative ease. In the example given they could make the change (on the fly I might add) simply by changing the properties of a material in the world from say Iron to gold and that will change things immediately. You now have a valuable resource that will have an effect in the world. Any faction, group or individual that craves Gold would be affected. As soon as word spread that Gold had been found a ripple would start spreading to affect things.

Even small changes will have big repercussions. Which is exactly why player interaction becomes so important. Essentially the world and players will be providing content to each other without the need for further interaction from the devs.

 

  saker

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/11/04
Posts: 928

Make a WORLD,
Not a Game.

8/25/14 11:42:32 AM#43

Believe NO hype, Believe NO articles unless you have UN-paid INDEPENDENT corroboration. Basically don't believe it till you see it, experience it yourself.

  amx23

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/14
Posts: 107

8/25/14 11:45:36 AM#44

Half of you guys saying you dont want a changing story or fantasy genre dont play mmos obviously...

...GET OUT!!

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

8/25/14 11:53:06 AM#45
Originally posted by amx23

Half of you guys saying you dont want a changing story or fantasy genre dont play mmos obviously...

...GET OUT!!

the idea that MMOs have to be fantasy and have a story is a myth. A myth that has been created from years of no innovation

Correlation does not imply causation

  Mendel

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/22/11
Posts: 652

8/25/14 12:01:07 PM#46
Originally posted by saker

Believe NO hype, Believe NO articles unless you have UN-paid INDEPENDENT corroboration. Basically don't believe it till you see it, experience it yourself.

It is definitely getting more difficult to find observers that are trust-worthy.  But it is getting more difficult to experience all the things for yourself, even within a single game (prototype).  If implemented as I currently understand the intention, the Storybricks element in EQN will be mostly invisible to players, so there will be no direct experience possible.

Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  Mendel

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/22/11
Posts: 652

8/25/14 12:21:37 PM#47
Originally posted by Maelwydd

 

Can't remember if it was mentioned in one of the panels or during a chat with one of the devs but the system is designed to work with relative ease. In the example given they could make the change (on the fly I might add) simply by changing the properties of a material in the world from say Iron to gold and that will change things immediately. You now have a valuable resource that will have an effect in the world. Any faction, group or individual that craves Gold would be affected. As soon as word spread that Gold had been found a ripple would start spreading to affect things.

Even small changes will have big repercussions. Which is exactly why player interaction becomes so important. Essentially the world and players will be providing content to each other without the need for further interaction from the devs.

The possibility of doing something that you've given as an example may be possible, Gold pieces suddenly are worth the same as tin, and Iron pieces are the new currency.  It's an interesting conjecture, but it is entirely dependent upon being able to code the storybricks elements to capture several very complex social systems.  Given that, there could be (and probably should be) thousands of groups of NPCs that would need independent code.  Players might be upset if all groups of Orcs suddenly started acting the same (had the same behavioral patterns).  I think the majority to expect the Orcs near Halas to maybe attack Halas, while the Orcs near Freeport move to capture an Iron mine, and other bands/tribes/nations to simply start hoarding all metals.  (One stimulus, multiple diverse reactions).

My concern, even if SOE can successfully code multiple flexible behavior patterns is how this will be tested.  We've seen errors in coding and design roll into the live servers in other SOE products.  I fear a new complex social behavior will be rolled out causing a ripple effect of errors.  Using the same conceptual scenario, a change (gold-to-iron) is triggered, but it takes only a few nanoseconds (instead of hours/days) before it spreads throughout an entire sever, and the players never get a proper opportunity to react to the repercussions.  Given SOE's previous unwillingness to perform a full roll-back on live servers, how is that going to be corrected?  Their history works against them again.

Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  coretex666

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1841

"I shall take your position into consideration"

8/25/14 12:38:16 PM#48

The features sound interesting (on the paper). However, the videos indicate that EQN is going to be an arcade console game which kind of prevents me from getting excited about it.

Do you, fans of the game, have any opinion on this? Do you mind it looks like arcade console game? Do you disagree and think it looks like a decent PC MMORPG?

I cant help it, but when I watch the videos, I feel like the game is supposed to be played on a tv screen with joypad in your hands...

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

  jesteralways

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/17/13
Posts: 689

8/25/14 12:43:00 PM#49
Folks in Storybricks really developed something amazing. i can see their AI system becoming the next big thing for every other developer to emulate.

i want an open world, no phasing, no instancing.i want meaningful owpvp.i want player driven economy.i want meaningful crafting.i want awesome exploration, a sense of thrill.i want ow housing with a meaningful effect on my entire gameplay experience, not just some instanced crap.i want all of these free of cost, i don't wanna pay you a cent, game devs can eat grass and continue developing game for me.
Seems like that is the current consensus of western mmo players.

  Eridanix

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/30/07
Posts: 421

As One With Darkness

8/25/14 12:48:02 PM#50

It's a great matter of importance. EQN I wll be there!

All i read about this game is getting better and better.

It is a question of fangs.

  DamonVile

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4909

8/25/14 12:50:29 PM#51
Originally posted by coretex666

The features sound interesting (on the paper). However, the videos indicate that EQN is going to be an arcade console game which kind of prevents me from getting excited about it.

Do you, fans of the game, have any opinion on this? Do you mind it looks like arcade console game? Do you disagree and think it looks like a decent PC MMORPG?

I cant help it, but when I watch the videos, I feel like the game is supposed to be played on a tv screen with joypad in your hands...

I don't create classifications like this for my games so I don't ever suffer from that issue. If the game plays better with a controller then I'll plug my controller in and play with it. If keyboard mouse is a viable option I'd prefer that and will use it.

As for it's style, stylized graphics are not my preference but it wont stop me from enjoying the game if it's fun and action combat is far more interesting than tab target so that part is a plus to me.

As for the actual topic storybricks is really something I'll have to see in action, but it sounds good....on paper.

  Nadia

Tipster

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11795

8/25/14 12:50:32 PM#52
Originally posted by coretex666

The features sound interesting (on the paper). However, the videos indicate that EQN is going to be an arcade console game which kind of prevents me from getting excited about it.

the downer to me is that EQN will be action combat similar to a MOBA

 

i dont think console when i think of EQN,  i think MOBA

I am willing to overlook the action aspects if the rest of the game is fun

  Azoth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/08/04
Posts: 592

8/25/14 12:52:46 PM#53
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Azoth
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Gallus85

The key thing to note is that players will be able to change their surroundings by their actions and the world will also change over time even without player intervention.  You don't need to get so specific, as in something like "Can players bar other players from being shamans!?" to understand this fact.  They've already given examples of possibilities that work within their system.  Things like orcs taking over a town, and players driving orcs out of the town making it peaceful again where you can then use the town to buy items and resources... then the orcs could come back in force with a larger raid-sized army.... OR maybe brigands see the orcs are no longer there are decide to attack.  Or maybe that town turns into a xenophobic militarized community that attacks everyone on sight because they're so afraid from being attacked all the time.  This is already done by ArenaNet (GW2) with dynamic events, just on a smaller scale..  Trion's Rift touches this with their zone wide invasions .. So this really isn't anything new, it's just done on a bigger scale.. The wheel has already been invented, but because SOE is making it a bigger wheel isn't invention..

All you questions have already been answered.  You don't need to know about a specific scenario you dreamed up answered right now.  The key point is that the world will constantly be changing and it's not the same as scripted events like GW2 or a simple faction KOS vs Friendly system.

GW2's world is always changing too.. in fact each server is different then others..  No two servers are technically the same..  These are not real changes, they are only short term temporary effects.. Have you played GW2 yet? lol

I've played GW2 for many months and I don't understand why you can't figure out that they're drastically different systems that work in drastically different ways.

Probably because they aren't that much different on a player perspective. A scripted event triggered by players.

This statement only proves you don't know anything about the system, how it works and why it's drastically different.

Are you saying that the choice an NPC can make won't be scripted ?

  Strayfe

Novice Member

Joined: 10/30/07
Posts: 184

"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"
"Nobody provokes me with impunity."

8/25/14 12:54:49 PM#54

See, here's the thing.  Even if it is everything it is advertised to be and more, Storybricks is still a tool.

A tool in the hands of Sony Online Entertainment will be made into a wet, floppy dong, and flung at the player base couched in glowing terms of innovation and gold bullion.

Nothing Free to Play with a cash shop is going to revolutionize anything.  Smedley wants your money, and until SOE kicks him out on his greedy little ass and inserts a CEO with a focus on quality products over nickel and diming, obfuscation and marketing tactics, anything out of that studio is going to be irrelevant hype, not worth the sectors on the hard drive it's written to.

Just remember, before you throw more money at them, a tool is only as good as the people wielding it.

  Nerblas

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/16/06
Posts: 26

8/25/14 12:55:56 PM#55
Originally posted by flizzer
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by flizzer

Of course I am excited and anxious to play this , but I do fear this is a lot of pre release hype.  After all, some of this type of talk was heard prior to the release of GW2. I play GW2 and do love the game but I do admit the pre release hype and the actual gameplay differ in degrees of magnitude.  How will EQN actually play?   

Im still not clear if anything described is really all that different.  Players will now have choices. Okay,  They will still need to add these content choices in to the game.  Whether you call it an update, expansion, or whatever, developers will need to add these changes in to the game and players will be waiting for the next content addition similar to the way we already do.   It almost seems like they are just calling these systems by different names and trying to convince us they are new and different.  I hope they are. I will be there on day one to play this game and hope I am completely wrong.  Perhaps I am just a jaded gamer who has listened to much too much pre release game hype to believe what I read.

A small example.

The developers put a gold mine into the game.

Now every faction, group or individual that is affected by the desire for wealth has been dynamically changed by the introduction of this gold mine. Not only that but with every faction, group or individual affected, there will be a knock on effect with those that are not interested simply through their interaction with those that are. If you have thousand of factions, groups and individuals that are all interacting then any change could potentially have a very dramatic effect.

In essence Storybricks allows for a world to operate with a very real 'butterfly effect' going on.

Hard to imagine the complexity of all the content that will be needed to allow for this.  GW2 claims they have teams working on all aspects of the game.  How many would be needed for all these different choices?   How often would we get updates?  Yes, they would need to be updates. You might not like the word and SOE apparently doesnt but when you add content to the game you update.  Again, I forsee players just waiting on the next additional content update to the game so they can play with more choices.  Not a bad thing if SOE can deliver, for sure, but I feel we are being bamboozled with the language and superlatives used in describing these systems. 

 

For what I understand, they don't need to "script" that much content... Sure, there may be a few "scripted" events, but in majority content does not need to be script if the AI is developed enough... By tweaking (be it by player actions / devs or whatever) global objectives / motivations, the game npcs will start collectively working towards that goals and affecting the rest of the world (provoking other factions, consuming resources, etc). If you consider the chain reactions possibilities you can imagine 2 servers evolving in a much different ways even if the "base" content is exactly the same... Think of it as "alternate realities" ;)

 

If this really works out, in such an automated way... damn... ;)

"Vidis Fodidis Est"

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

8/25/14 1:02:32 PM#56
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by coretex666

The features sound interesting (on the paper). However, the videos indicate that EQN is going to be an arcade console game which kind of prevents me from getting excited about it.

the downer to me is that EQN will be action combat similar to a MOBA

 

i dont think console when i think of EQN,  i think MOBA

I am willing to overlook the action aspects if the rest of the game is fun

yup...me and combat is so done...decades of that...enough already

Correlation does not imply causation

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

8/25/14 1:36:20 PM#57
Originally posted by Azoth
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Azoth
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Gallus85

The key thing to note is that players will be able to change their surroundings by their actions and the world will also change over time even without player intervention.  You don't need to get so specific, as in something like "Can players bar other players from being shamans!?" to understand this fact.  They've already given examples of possibilities that work within their system.  Things like orcs taking over a town, and players driving orcs out of the town making it peaceful again where you can then use the town to buy items and resources... then the orcs could come back in force with a larger raid-sized army.... OR maybe brigands see the orcs are no longer there are decide to attack.  Or maybe that town turns into a xenophobic militarized community that attacks everyone on sight because they're so afraid from being attacked all the time.  This is already done by ArenaNet (GW2) with dynamic events, just on a smaller scale..  Trion's Rift touches this with their zone wide invasions .. So this really isn't anything new, it's just done on a bigger scale.. The wheel has already been invented, but because SOE is making it a bigger wheel isn't invention..

All you questions have already been answered.  You don't need to know about a specific scenario you dreamed up answered right now.  The key point is that the world will constantly be changing and it's not the same as scripted events like GW2 or a simple faction KOS vs Friendly system.

GW2's world is always changing too.. in fact each server is different then others..  No two servers are technically the same..  These are not real changes, they are only short term temporary effects.. Have you played GW2 yet? lol

I've played GW2 for many months and I don't understand why you can't figure out that they're drastically different systems that work in drastically different ways.

Probably because they aren't that much different on a player perspective. A scripted event triggered by players.

This statement only proves you don't know anything about the system, how it works and why it's drastically different.

Are you saying that the choice an NPC can make won't be scripted ?

No, I'm saying there is a clear difference between GW2's public quest system with two different outcomes (depending on complete/not complete) that just rotates on a 30 - 60 minute timer and the Emergent AI system, which allows for hundreds or thousands of outcomes, at any place in the world, that constantly evolves over time with or without player engagement.

Trying to equate the two is about the same as trying to equate a cross bow made in 256 BC to a F-22 Raptor. 

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  Raelln

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/11/14
Posts: 67

8/25/14 1:39:08 PM#58
Originally posted by Maelwydd

A small example.

The developers put a gold mine into the game.

Now every faction, group or individual that is affected by the desire for wealth has been dynamically changed by the introduction of this gold mine. Not only that but with every faction, group or individual affected, there will be a knock on effect with those that are not interested simply through their interaction with those that are. If you have thousand of factions, groups and individuals that are all interacting then any change could potentially have a very dramatic effect.

In essence Storybricks allows for a world to operate with a very real 'butterfly effect' going on.

I appreciate what you are hoping for; however, I'm not sure I want to play a game where some random event, such as a gold mine suddenly appearing out of thin air, can immediately make areas of the game unplayable because everyone, including "smart" NPCs flock to the area and keep every node permamined the moment it spawns.

Don't get me wrong, I love dynamic events - especially those that chain on into other events depending on the success or failure of the prior event. This is still an online world though - filled with other players and more than a few of those players will attempt to harness every possible method to exploit the system or grief other players.

There are many plans that look awesome on paper and would make for absolutely awesome single player games. There are some plans that just will simply not turn out well in a multiplayer environment where the individual player has no control over who they play with.

  Raelln

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/11/14
Posts: 67

8/25/14 1:51:23 PM#59
Originally posted by Gallus85

No, I'm saying there is a clear difference between GW2's public quest system with two different outcomes (depending on complete/not complete) that just rotates on a 30 - 60 minute timer and the Emergent AI system, which allows for hundreds or thousands of outcomes, at any place in the world, that constantly evolves over time with or without player engagement.

Trying to equate the two is about the same as trying to equate a cross bow made in 256 BC to a F-22 Raptor. 

Little difference.

While GW2 may only have a win/lose type choice for the script to follow that may or may not lead into another event - what I've read here just insinuates that a single event may end up with more than those two choices.

Each choice will have to have developer time to create the next event path - be it a faction building a city or a group of NPCs building a bridge. In the end, many of these events cannot be permanent fixtures - less the environment become pockmarked with past "events". Don't get me wrong, the event to build a city would obviously be permanent but a "random" type of event for a group of NPCs to sink a mineshaft cannot just be allowed to happen anywhere and at anytime less the gameworld eventually become overrun by abandoned mineshafts.

To that end, the gameworld must reset some dynamic events and in that capacity it will feel just like GW2.

As for what EQN is claiming to attempt to do - I believe Horizons already tried some of this stuff although it was more direct developer engagement than dynamic scripting - if memory serves. (I may be completely wrong).

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2551

World > Quest Progression

8/25/14 1:51:30 PM#60

GW2 did a great job of automating and making typical quest systems fun and interactive.

 

It's not the same as what is going on here as there are more variables for the system to consider on an NPC group and indivisual basis.  Will it still be scripted? Of course, software has to be scripted.  Will there still be events and changes that happen because SoE wants it to be part of the story? Yes, those are "Rallying Calls" that change the world in front of you as lower objectives are met to a larger goal.

 

The main difference is the day to day happenings as you explore.  In GW2 I bet if I walked to the NW corner of the Foothills there will be trees with spiders in them that if killed enough will spawn an event with a big boss spider... just as it did when it was released years ago.  With what SB is showing this would not happen, the spiders could move to another location.  Giving NPCs and NPC groups a spreadshet of like and dislikes is the first step.  The next is a system that tracks what is going on, where people are, where resources are and what type of terrain it is.  Landmark alreaady has these "state checks" like jumping off a cliff and the system will check for water below you.  If there is your character will go into a dive.

 

When variables are done on an individual level in a world that knows where everything is at any time you can produce actual "dynamic" content that moves of it's own volition.  It's still scripted yes but will seem like it isn't.

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