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General Discussion  » What made EQ, "EQ" and how could EQN follow suit?

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141 posts found
  Gallus85

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1119

8/25/14 5:09:19 AM#21
Originally posted by ReallyNow10

1.  Consequences.  If a player played like an idiot (say zerging like in some of these WOW clones), they felt the pain.

Yup, good death penalties need to be in place to discourage stupid behavior.  But there is balance to be had.  If you create too harsh of death penalties, you discourage participation in dangerous activities.  So you can't get stupid with the penalties either.  I think EQ was a good middle ground, where death hurt a little bit, but wasn't as stupid as some older games like LoK, where death meant:

-Mobs/Players would loot every single item off your body.

-If you were high level, you would lose weeks or even months of skill experience.

-You were then sent to the underworld as a spirit and had to complete 30-45 minutes of painful quests to get your organs back before you were allowed to return to the normal game world.

Good death penalties make death something to be avoided, but aren't so harsh that they make everyone hide from challenge.

2.  Freedom to explore.  No compulsion to follow some breadcrumb trail or to be a slave to a quest hub.

-This is one thing I hate in MMOs and one of the major reason's I'm excited for EQN.  Horizontal progression and ever-changing environment means that the game is going to be truly free-roaming.  No more following !'s or ?'s around to different "zones" depending on your level.  A true adventure experience, but accomplished without resorting to archaic original EQ design in 2014.

3.  Interdependency with other players.  Sure, you could go it alone, but it was safer in groups, as it should be.

-Another reason I'm excited for EQN.  It seems they're getting back to the original trilogy (Tank,Healer,CC), and putting a lot of emphasis on group play without being detrimental to players who want to solo play for whatever reason (anti-social, not enough time today, etc).  Multiclassing will allow players to adapt to different group make ups and horizontal progression will encourage impromptu grouping with people you meet while adventuring since there won't be gear/level barriers.  Very exciting.

4.  Downtime.  This is where folks who grouped would start to talk and form bonds of camaraderie.

-I disagree here.  You don't need forced downtime to get socialization.  EQN Horizontal progression will get people in more of a social mood to start with since anyone can basically group with anyone they meet in game.  Further more EQN will be using PS2's in game VOIP system.  So any random player can instantly local voice chat with other players, and members that join your group will have instant access to VOIP with everyone else in the group without having to go through extra steps to skype or set up vent/TS3/etc.  This will allow for more socialization, possibly even more than original EQ, without resorting to boring and unnecessary design flaws like EQ's down time mechanics.  Chat and have fun while playing the game, not while you're waiting to play the game as your Mana Bar crawls forward.

5.  A world.  Norrath was set up with cultural cities and zones and other places.  Rarely did you go through a city zone once; there were always reasons to come back.  It was a shared community environment.

-Another reason I'm excited for EQN.  They've already stated there would be a magnitude of different cultural cities, and even cooler that many of them will be a part of rallying call events.  So not only will there be all these great and interesting places to visit, but you'll also get a huge amount of story and lore tied into each one.  Also, horizontal progression, again, making traveling and staying at different cities viable and fun to do.  You won't be forced to simply use whatever city is closest to the "end game" content, since the entire world will be end game and you can free roam how you want.

One thing I'm curious is how they will handle starting areas.  On one hand I liked having different starting areas. Placed you could call home based on your race, that had meaning and lore behind it.  But at the same time I don't want to log into an empty town because most of the player base is spread across 10 other, more popular, cities. We'll have to see how they handle this.

To answer a previous question, what made EQ... EQ?  The adventure would be my answer.  Which is why I'm excited for EQN.  They're clearly bringing back that sense of adventure and a vast world to explore and be a part with, without resorting to cloning tired mechanics and elements from over a decade ago.

Horizontal progression and emergent AI, with proceedurly generated content is going to really appeal to people who want to play a real RPG that focuses on adventuring in a living world.  Gone will be those silly level and gear barriers preventing people from socializing and traveling around the world freely.  Heroic movements will make on foot travel actually fun.  Horizontal progression will make free-roaming travel an actual interesting and rewording part of the game.

When it comes right down to it, EQN is the only game that's even attempted at giving us a real RPG adventure experience.  Everything else over the past 10 years have been nothing more than vertical progression, zone-hoping, quest hub chasers where everyone just wants to race to "end game" and farm retarded raid events over and over again just so you can farm gear, so that you can be ready to farm the next toughest raid event when the next expansion comes out.  Absolutely terrible.

EQN is the mnost fascinating looking MMO in production specifically because it's not doing the same old tired nonsense.  People who can't see this are blind, or simply not paying attention.

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  Rydeson

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3922

8/25/14 6:56:05 AM#22
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by ReallyNow10

1.  Consequences.  If a player played like an idiot (say zerging like in some of these WOW clones), they felt the pain.

Yup, good death penalties need to be in place to discourage stupid behavior.  But there is balance to be had.  If you create too harsh of death penalties, you discourage participation in dangerous activities.  So you can't get stupid with the penalties either.  I think EQ was a good middle ground, where death hurt a little bit, but wasn't as stupid as some older games like LoK, where death meant:

-Mobs/Players would loot every single item off your body.

-If you were high level, you would lose weeks or even months of skill experience.

-You were then sent to the underworld as a spirit and had to complete 30-45 minutes of painful quests to get your organs back before you were allowed to return to the normal game world.

Good death penalties make death something to be avoided, but aren't so harsh that they make everyone hide from challenge.

2.  Freedom to explore.  No compulsion to follow some breadcrumb trail or to be a slave to a quest hub.

-This is one thing I hate in MMOs and one of the major reason's I'm excited for EQN.  Horizontal progression and ever-changing environment means that the game is going to be truly free-roaming.  No more following !'s or ?'s around to different "zones" depending on your level.  A true adventure experience, but accomplished without resorting to archaic original EQ design in 2014.  YOU do realize there are tier walls in place, a new player will NOT be allowed to see 100% of the world on day 1..  They'll need to earn those tier progressions,, or buy them from the cash shop?  /shrug..

3.  Interdependency with other players.  Sure, you could go it alone, but it was safer in groups, as it should be.

-Another reason I'm excited for EQN.  It seems they're getting back to the original trilogy (Tank,Healer,CC), and putting a lot of emphasis on group play without being detrimental to players who want to solo play for whatever reason (anti-social, not enough time today, etc).  Multiclassing will allow players to adapt to different group make ups and horizontal progression will encourage impromptu grouping with people you meet while adventuring since there won't be gear/level barriers.  Very exciting. No details on this yet..  In EQ, there were just some encounters that required group play.. PERIOD.. It is my assumption that EQN will allow ALL SOLO play.. So where does grouping become required?  Raiding Crushbone maybe? However in the rest of the open world, when I come across 4 goblins, I kill them all easily.. Grouping up means little at this point.. Will encounters scale to size of players in a given area like they do in GW2 dynamic events.. ??  I have not heard anything about that..

4.  Downtime.  This is where folks who grouped would start to talk and form bonds of camaraderie.

-I disagree here.  You don't need forced downtime to get socialization.  EQN Horizontal progression will get people in more of a social mood to start with since anyone can basically group with anyone they meet in game.  Further more EQN will be using PS2's in game VOIP system.  So any random player can instantly local voice chat with other players, and members that join your group will have instant access to VOIP with everyone else in the group without having to go through extra steps to skype or set up vent/TS3/etc.  This will allow for more socialization, possibly even more than original EQ, without resorting to boring and unnecessary design flaws like EQ's down time mechanics.  Chat and have fun while playing the game, not while you're waiting to play the game as your Mana Bar crawls forward.

5.  A world.  Norrath was set up with cultural cities and zones and other places.  Rarely did you go through a city zone once; there were always reasons to come back.  It was a shared community environment.

-Another reason I'm excited for EQN.  They've already stated there would be a magnitude of different cultural cities, and even cooler that many of them will be a part of rallying call events.  So not only will there be all these great and interesting places to visit, but you'll also get a huge amount of story and lore tied into each one.  Also, horizontal progression, again, making traveling and staying at different cities viable and fun to do.  You won't be forced to simply use whatever city is closest to the "end game" content, since the entire world will be end game and you can free roam how you want.

One thing I'm curious is how they will handle starting areas.  On one hand I liked having different starting areas. Placed you could call home based on your race, that had meaning and lore behind it.  But at the same time I don't want to log into an empty town because most of the player base is spread across 10 other, more popular, cities. We'll have to see how they handle this.

This is an issue that hasn't been talked about, and it should be.. People keep talking about rallying calls..  That is all great for the people that start playing on Day 1, but what about the new players a year after launch?  They'll miss out on ALL the rallying calls.. Or do they plan to create a new city every 2 months?   But then you run into your issue that many have had for years and that is empty cities..   The more cities you have, the more deserted the world becomes..  This is why Blizzard got away from factional cities (Horde and Alliance) and started sharing the same hub..  It made the game look busier.. 

To answer a previous question, what made EQ... EQ?  The adventure would be my answer.  Which is why I'm excited for EQN.  They're clearly bringing back that sense of adventure and a vast world to explore and be a part with, without resorting to cloning tired mechanics and elements from over a decade ago. Not for me..  What made EQ .. EQ? was both adventuring choices of multiple starting locations and paths to progress.. but also CLASS DEFINING game play..  I have yet to find a class as fulfilling and as fun to play as my EQ druid.. 

Horizontal progression and emergent AI, with proceedurly generated content is going to really appeal to people who want to play a real RPG that focuses on adventuring in a living world.  Gone will be those silly level and gear barriers preventing people from socializing and traveling around the world freely.  Heroic movements will make on foot travel actually fun.  Horizontal progression will make free-roaming travel an actual interesting and rewording part of the game.

When it comes right down to it, EQN is the only game that's even attempted at giving us a real RPG adventure experience.  Everything else over the past 10 years have been nothing more than vertical progression, zone-hoping, quest hub chasers where everyone just wants to race to "end game" and farm retarded raid events over and over again just so you can farm gear, so that you can be ready to farm the next toughest raid event when the next expansion comes out.  Absolutely terrible. Agreed farming gear like doing dungeons sucked.. BUT, what does EQN have in place?  Crafting?  So will their be any barriers to keep a new player on day one in making the world's best crafted sword (tier 5)? I have yet to hear or see anything in detail about crafting?  Will it be as robust as SWG, or just some lame hobby like WoW?

EQN is the mnost fascinating looking MMO in production specifically because it's not doing the same old tired nonsense.  People who can't see this are blind, or simply not paying attention.

     I suggest wait and see what really is launched and HOW is unfolds..  I have yet to ever see a product and service ever meet the hype the marketing promoted.. 

  strykr619

Novice Member

Joined: 7/13/07
Posts: 152

8/25/14 7:03:03 AM#23
Originally posted by DMKano
It was a virtual world, not a game. The players were not heros or chosen ones. All NPCs had factions which made them a part of the virtual world. The pacing was about 20 times slower than today's games which allowed players to socialize a lot.

This sir was the best answer...

May I also add that its itemization was so much more superior then most games now... ITEMS MEANT SOMETHING.  Blade of Carnage, Scepter of Destruction, Rubicite Breastplate (warrior bp with clicky invis) where UNIQUE! 

Upgrades to these items didn't just come in some "content patch" and made them invalid.... 

Single most memorable quest (next to weapon epics) was the Eye Patch of Plunder quest. Took a lot of time to finish but the reward WAS WORTH IT and was valuable for a LONG TIME. 

  Gallus85

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1119

8/25/14 8:38:10 AM#24
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by ReallyNow10

1.  Consequences.  If a player played like an idiot (say zerging like in some of these WOW clones), they felt the pain.

Yup, good death penalties need to be in place to discourage stupid behavior.  But there is balance to be had.  If you create too harsh of death penalties, you discourage participation in dangerous activities.  So you can't get stupid with the penalties either.  I think EQ was a good middle ground, where death hurt a little bit, but wasn't as stupid as some older games like LoK, where death meant:

-Mobs/Players would loot every single item off your body.

-If you were high level, you would lose weeks or even months of skill experience.

-You were then sent to the underworld as a spirit and had to complete 30-45 minutes of painful quests to get your organs back before you were allowed to return to the normal game world.

Good death penalties make death something to be avoided, but aren't so harsh that they make everyone hide from challenge.

2.  Freedom to explore.  No compulsion to follow some breadcrumb trail or to be a slave to a quest hub.

-This is one thing I hate in MMOs and one of the major reason's I'm excited for EQN.  Horizontal progression and ever-changing environment means that the game is going to be truly free-roaming.  No more following !'s or ?'s around to different "zones" depending on your level.  A true adventure experience, but accomplished without resorting to archaic original EQ design in 2014.  YOU do realize there are tier walls in place, a new player will NOT be allowed to see 100% of the world on day 1..  They'll need to earn those tier progressions,, or buy them from the cash shop?  /shrug..

The vertical progression has already been stated to be extremely small and won't be raised.  Casual players will cap "tier 5" for a class only after a few days or a week or two at most.  At that point the entire world is open up to them.  This is done to give a very free roaming feel to the game, and executed in such a way where tier 1 is still a threat to tier 5 players.  There won't be any "graying out" mobs in EQN.

3.  Interdependency with other players.  Sure, you could go it alone, but it was safer in groups, as it should be.

-Another reason I'm excited for EQN.  It seems they're getting back to the original trilogy (Tank,Healer,CC), and putting a lot of emphasis on group play without being detrimental to players who want to solo play for whatever reason (anti-social, not enough time today, etc).  Multiclassing will allow players to adapt to different group make ups and horizontal progression will encourage impromptu grouping with people you meet while adventuring since there won't be gear/level barriers.  Very exciting. No details on this yet..  In EQ, there were just some encounters that required group play.. PERIOD.. It is my assumption that EQN will allow ALL SOLO play.. So where does grouping become required?  Raiding Crushbone maybe? However in the rest of the open world, when I come across 4 goblins, I kill them all easily.. Grouping up means little at this point.. Will encounters scale to size of players in a given area like they do in GW2 dynamic events.. ??  I have not heard anything about that..

There has been a huge amount of details on this.  They've already stated that the game is horizontal in progression and that difficulty of mobs will range mostly by how many people are required to take on the mobs.  Some areas will be fine to solo, some areas will require a group and some areas/events will require multiple groups.  Also, because of the emergent AI system, a solo area may end up becoming a raid-difficulty area.  A group-centric area may be cleaned out and become safe for soloing in the future, then turn into a raid area and then turn into a friendly NPC merchant town.  But they've been very clear that there will be plenty of content in the game that ranges from solo to multigroup and everything in between.

4.  Downtime.  This is where folks who grouped would start to talk and form bonds of camaraderie.

-I disagree here.  You don't need forced downtime to get socialization.  EQN Horizontal progression will get people in more of a social mood to start with since anyone can basically group with anyone they meet in game.  Further more EQN will be using PS2's in game VOIP system.  So any random player can instantly local voice chat with other players, and members that join your group will have instant access to VOIP with everyone else in the group without having to go through extra steps to skype or set up vent/TS3/etc.  This will allow for more socialization, possibly even more than original EQ, without resorting to boring and unnecessary design flaws like EQ's down time mechanics.  Chat and have fun while playing the game, not while you're waiting to play the game as your Mana Bar crawls forward.

5.  A world.  Norrath was set up with cultural cities and zones and other places.  Rarely did you go through a city zone once; there were always reasons to come back.  It was a shared community environment.

-Another reason I'm excited for EQN.  They've already stated there would be a magnitude of different cultural cities, and even cooler that many of them will be a part of rallying call events.  So not only will there be all these great and interesting places to visit, but you'll also get a huge amount of story and lore tied into each one.  Also, horizontal progression, again, making traveling and staying at different cities viable and fun to do.  You won't be forced to simply use whatever city is closest to the "end game" content, since the entire world will be end game and you can free roam how you want.

One thing I'm curious is how they will handle starting areas.  On one hand I liked having different starting areas. Placed you could call home based on your race, that had meaning and lore behind it.  But at the same time I don't want to log into an empty town because most of the player base is spread across 10 other, more popular, cities. We'll have to see how they handle this.

This is an issue that hasn't been talked about, and it should be.. People keep talking about rallying calls..  That is all great for the people that start playing on Day 1, but what about the new players a year after launch?  They'll miss out on ALL the rallying calls.. Or do they plan to create a new city every 2 months?   But then you run into your issue that many have had for years and that is empty cities..   The more cities you have, the more deserted the world becomes..  This is why Blizzard got away from factional cities (Horde and Alliance) and started sharing the same hub..  It made the game look busier.. 

This has been talked to death already, please go on youtube and watch dev panels, or read reddit. Rallying calls are one time events that have a permanent effect on the world.  Yes you will miss out on that rallying call if you join late or don't play during it, but they will constantly be doing rallying calls throughout the life of the game and not every rallying call has to do with "adding cities".  It could be for opening up a dungeon, or fighting off a horde of dragons that results in a field being covered with dragon bones/corposes at the end.  It can be anything they want and rallying call is not a synonym for "creating a perma city".  

Also, EQN is horizontal progression.  So you're not really going to have this sort of "central hub" city.  This is an effect of vertical progression.  People will cling to the city that's closest to their "end game zone".  EQN is horizontal progression with a ton of different events happening all over an ever-changing world, all of which is viable content for all players.  This will result in a much more even distribution of players in all parts of the world over many different towns and cities.

To answer a previous question, what made EQ... EQ?  The adventure would be my answer.  Which is why I'm excited for EQN.  They're clearly bringing back that sense of adventure and a vast world to explore and be a part with, without resorting to cloning tired mechanics and elements from over a decade ago. Not for me..  What made EQ .. EQ? was both adventuring choices of multiple starting locations and paths to progress.. but also CLASS DEFINING game play..  I have yet to find a class as fulfilling and as fun to play as my EQ druid.. 

Welcome to the future.  Horizontal progression will give you the most freedom of paths you've ever had.  And they already stated that EQN's character building will allow for all types of different builds and roles.  Your class won't define your game play, but how you build your character will.  

Horizontal progression and emergent AI, with proceedurly generated content is going to really appeal to people who want to play a real RPG that focuses on adventuring in a living world.  Gone will be those silly level and gear barriers preventing people from socializing and traveling around the world freely.  Heroic movements will make on foot travel actually fun.  Horizontal progression will make free-roaming travel an actual interesting and rewording part of the game.

When it comes right down to it, EQN is the only game that's even attempted at giving us a real RPG adventure experience.  Everything else over the past 10 years have been nothing more than vertical progression, zone-hoping, quest hub chasers where everyone just wants to race to "end game" and farm retarded raid events over and over again just so you can farm gear, so that you can be ready to farm the next toughest raid event when the next expansion comes out.  Absolutely terrible. Agreed farming gear like doing dungeons sucked.. BUT, what does EQN have in place?  Crafting?  So will their be any barriers to keep a new player on day one in making the world's best crafted sword (tier 5)? I have yet to hear or see anything in detail about crafting?  Will it be as robust as SWG, or just some lame hobby like WoW?

Gear will drop and gear will be crafted.  However, gear in EQN is not about "better".  It's about customization.  Their gear system will have things like "Lightning skills cost less manage to activate".  Or "When you use a physical attack, gain +10% shield."  The higher tiers won't be "better", but they will be more specialized.  A tier 1 piece of gear might be like "+5% damage boost to attacks".  But a Tier 3 piece might be like "+8% damage boost after you perform a movement skill" and a tier 5 piece of gear might be something like "+10% to a lightning based skill cast after a movement skill". 

This will give you the freedom to craft or find gear that fits well with your build and you're not relegated to just wearing the piece of gear that has the most +stats on it.

Apparently crafting is going to play a major part in the game because of these factors as well.  A skilled crafter will be able to make very custom pieces of gear, and able to craft to order.  A player wants a Martial-bonus weapon that has an elvish style look with a +fire mod on it?  Well there might be something close to that in the game, but it could be hard to find given all the varieties of gear.  So having it crafted might be a more sure-fire way to get the item.

The issue with crafting in a lot of games is that the "best" gear is almost always dropped from "raid mobs".  In EQN, gear is about customization for your build, and style.  So crafted gear will be just as viable as dropped gear.  This will make crafting something worth while, and not just a side-thought.

EQN is the mnost fascinating looking MMO in production specifically because it's not doing the same old tired nonsense.  People who can't see this are blind, or simply not paying attention.

     I suggest wait and see what really is launched and HOW is unfolds..  I have yet to ever see a product and service ever meet the hype the marketing promoted.. 

Yes, games live up to the hype all the time.  Especially when you don't use a wild imagination and extrapolate on features they advertise.  My advice to you is to watch more videos and read reddit.  You seem to be very confused on what a lot of these features mean and you seem to not even know about all the features the game will have.

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  Gallus85

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1119

8/25/14 8:44:27 AM#25
Originally posted by strykr619
Originally posted by DMKano
It was a virtual world, not a game. The players were not heros or chosen ones. All NPCs had factions which made them a part of the virtual world. The pacing was about 20 times slower than today's games which allowed players to socialize a lot.

This sir was the best answer...

May I also add that its itemization was so much more superior then most games now... ITEMS MEANT SOMETHING.  Blade of Carnage, Scepter of Destruction, Rubicite Breastplate (warrior bp with clicky invis) where UNIQUE! 

Upgrades to these items didn't just come in some "content patch" and made them invalid.... 

Single most memorable quest (next to weapon epics) was the Eye Patch of Plunder quest. Took a lot of time to finish but the reward WAS WORTH IT and was valuable for a LONG TIME. 

This is another great reason why I'm loving how EQN's devs are approaching character progression and gear.  Gear you earn will always be useful because it's about customization.  Different, not "better".  You mention some items that were nice to keep for a long time, but you forget that there were hundreds, thousands of gear pieces that were made trivial after expansions were released.  Plane of Fear gear was great and some pieces could last even as Kunark kicked off, but most of it was outdated.  Then Velious came along and faction gear was magnitudes better than anything from original EQ / Kunark.... etc etc.

So EQ had some* pieces that lasted, but a lot of them didn't.  This is why EQN is the better approach to getting gear.  It won't be stat sticks.  It will have effects that benefit certain classes / builds better than others. It's about customization and character building.  Not +stat treadmills that make old items irrelevant.  

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  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2847

World > Quest Progression

 
OP  8/25/14 10:53:48 AM#26
Regarding the tiers:

Unless there has been more recent information Dave mentioned that gearing to the next "tier" would take "a week to a few weeks" to gain, presumably taking longer and you went up in tiers. With five tiers that's a minimum 5 weeks, maximum 15 weeks to be "max" for a single class. This of course doesn't take into account specializing your gear to a certain play style within a class.

This is good IMO considering one can gain up to 40 classes at launch as you play and achieve/earn them. Those only wanting to play a single class alone may be relegated to gaining more classes for their secondary abilities as a method of progression (if they don't need different gear to accommodate different secondary abilities). If that's the case, how long would it take to earn those classes?

Someone who wants to play a handful or all of the classes would have a much longer consumption time. Lets group the classes into presumably four "archetypes" with each having gear (cloth, leather, chain, plate). That's still 20 weeks minimum, 60 weeks maximum just in acquiring top tier gear. This again doesn't take into account getting gear that has the effects you want for the way you want to play a particular class.

This is important because EQ had a very long progression path and though it was done with one single class/build it gave you a sense of identity with your character. I think this can also be the case with EQN though this time the classes and roles may change but the core character stays the same.
  Gallus85

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1119

8/25/14 1:08:21 PM#27
Originally posted by Aelious
Regarding the tiers:

Unless there has been more recent information Dave mentioned that gearing to the next "tier" would take "a week to a few weeks" to gain, presumably taking longer and you went up in tiers. With five tiers that's a minimum 5 weeks, maximum 15 weeks to be "max" for a single class. This of course doesn't take into account specializing your gear to a certain play style within a class.

This is good IMO considering one can gain up to 40 classes at launch as you play and achieve/earn them. Those only wanting to play a single class alone may be relegated to gaining more classes for their secondary abilities as a method of progression (if they don't need different gear to accommodate different secondary abilities). If that's the case, how long would it take to earn those classes?

Someone who wants to play a handful or all of the classes would have a much longer consumption time. Lets group the classes into presumably four "archetypes" with each having gear (cloth, leather, chain, plate). That's still 20 weeks minimum, 60 weeks maximum just in acquiring top tier gear. This again doesn't take into account getting gear that has the effects you want for the way you want to play a particular class.

This is important because EQ had a very long progression path and though it was done with one single class/build it gave you a sense of identity with your character. I think this can also be the case with EQN though this time the classes and roles may change but the core character stays the same.

The most recent information on this states that capping out "Tier 5" takes about a week or so (faster if you're hardcore / experienced in the game and knock it out with focus).  But that can really add up if you're aiming for getting 20 or 30 classes, and then get specialized gear for most of them.

But ya, Tier 5 just means you basically have 12 of the skills for a class unlocked and ready to go.  Which from unlocking the class to Tier 5 is a very, very quick process.  Remember, they want the entire world to be "end game", so there is a lot less emphasis on traditional "progression" and more emphasis on adventuring, doing quests and events to unlock new classes and finding very specific, rare pieces of gear to tweak your character.

It's not a vertical grinder.

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  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2847

World > Quest Progression

 
OP  8/25/14 1:11:28 PM#28
Originally posted by Gallus85

The most recent information on this states that capping out "Tier 5" takes about a week or so (faster if you're hardcore / experienced in the game and knock it out with focus). 

 What is the source for the information? I sure hope they don't do that as It would be a negative to gain 5 tiers of gear for a single class in a week or so.

  Superman0X

Elite Member

Joined: 3/28/06
Posts: 1471

8/25/14 1:12:56 PM#29

I see a couple (long) chains that I would like to respond too. I am not going to quote all of this, as it is quite long. I am going to paraphase a bit, so I apologize if something is not exactly as said, but it should help to clarify what I understood it to mean:


2. Freedom to explore. No compulsion to follow some breadcrumb trail or to be a slave to a quest hub.

I see comments about this, tied to horizontal progression. I am not sure how (or why) this would relate. In original EQ (I cant speak for the current state with all expansions) there were very few locations that were level locked. I can remember exploring locations where the mobs were 20 or 30 levels higher. Vertical (level based) progression was not much of a hinderance to exploration. As such, a change to horizontal progression doesnt enhance this, or really have much of an effect.


3. Interdependency with other players. Sure, you could go it alone, but it was safer in groups, as it should be.

Again, I am seeing horizontal progession brougth up here. I am seeing this as LOWERING (or outright removing) interdependancy requirements. They have made it clear that they are trying to remove the trinity by allowing a more hybrid style of play. They have also indicated that encounters scale by the number of players, again removing the benefits of interdependancy.

I, personally, feel that they are also tuning encounters to be less difficult (from what I have seen). That is my personal opinion, but it would also remove the need for interdependancy.


4. Downtime. This is where folks who grouped would start to talk and form bonds of camaraderie.

This is a hard one for people to understand. It is important that there be 'downtime' where players can chat freely (not using keyboard for other things) to help foster stronger community bonds. I am not seeing any indication of this (either way) with what they have shown us. However, most modern games try to eliminate downtime, and have suffered in this area because of this.


I do think that there are a lot of cool changes for EQN, but it is often the 'mix' of elements that truly make a game memorable. I am not overly thrilled at what I am seeing, but I will reserve judgement until I see the game, as I do appreciate many of the individual elements, even if the game turns out not to be for me.

  Daakkon

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/04
Posts: 444

8/25/14 1:15:39 PM#30
The difficulty of the game is what made EQ EQ. No in-game map, no quest waypoint, and mobs/dungeons we're incredibly difficult. Their slogan of You're in our world now actually applied to this game because it felt like you we're in another world. For it's time it did an amazing job of capturing that feeling and to this day no other game has beaten EQ 1 at that. Vanguard captured quite a few of those elements but you can't play it anymore.

  Gallus85

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1119

8/26/14 1:02:06 AM#31
Originally posted by Aelious
Originally posted by Gallus85

The most recent information on this states that capping out "Tier 5" takes about a week or so (faster if you're hardcore / experienced in the game and knock it out with focus). 

 What is the source for the information? I sure hope they don't do that as It would be a negative to gain 5 tiers of gear for a single class in a week or so.

Getting the tiers themselves for an unlocked class will be very fast as stated by Dave G.  It's hard to quantify how long it will take exactly, because it would depend on how many hours that player puts in and what they're doing during those hours of playtime.

The general word right now is average player (not a ultra casual once a week player and not a no-life 15 hours a day hardcore) will only take a couple days to unlock a tier or two.  A hardcore gamer who puts in 8 - 12 hours a day grinding it out could probably get a tier 5 in just a few sittings.  This sounds "fast" but remember this isn't the same as a standard vertical grinder.  Tiers are not meant to be power levels, just a wider range of adaptability / customization.  And collecting classes is going to be a major part of the game, each which will need gear and their own tier grind.  So even if it only takes 5 days for a core gamer to get to tier 5 and 5 days to get all the gear they want for that class (hypothetical), they would still have maybe 10 or 20 other classes to do the same to, coming up to 100 - 200 days worth of  playing to get it all done as a hardcore gamer.

Tier gear is not better, it's different/more specific to what it affects. Many people who are serious into character building will have a wide range of gear on their character from different tiers.  A tier 5 piece of gear might or might not be inferior to your druid's build than a tier 3 piece you found a few weeks ago.

No idea on how hard gear will be to get, but it will probably be faster than getting gear in vertical stat grinders because all gear is useful in some way or another and the devs are expecting people to acquire dozens of different sets of gear and for them to be constantly revising their build with new gear they find.  Each class would want it's own gear and every class can be made into multiple different builds with multiclassing skills and gear combos.

So you're not striving to get 15 or so of the best items in the game for you 1 class.  But possibly hundreds of pieces of gear for your array of classes and builds.

In the end, it sounds "fast" for players to cap out their class to tier 5 in just a handful of days or less.  But within the scope of the game and everything else they're going to want to do for that character, this isn't really "that fast" and it has the side effect of allowing almost the entire game population to be capable of grouping and adventuring with each other very quickly, which is going to go a long way for them to give us the free-roaming adventure experience they're advertising.

Seriously, with my hypothetical saying just a few days to cap out and gear up, that makes required play time of 3 - 6 months to cap out a character with gear and unlocks for all their classes.

That's original-EQ levels of time required to capping out a character and a stark contrast to games like ESO where I had the best gear in the game and a capped out V10 character before the first month's subscription expired lol.

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  Bresha

Novice Member

Joined: 7/28/14
Posts: 65

8/26/14 1:33:27 AM#32

The chances of EQN following suit are already long gone.Im banking on a modern day MMO with a GW2 type of difficulty - aka easy mode.

 

Regarding Everquest, it was a world . It was a world you could actually live in,be absorbed in,with places that actually felt dangerous.Where you could actually feel the vulnerability of your character in a dangerous place.

 

Doing things took time,traveling,questing,exploring,battles. etc   it was a challenge - not some push over,jump through the hoop like a good doggy type of task.

 

Your character was never a hero.No matter how good your gear was, a nice slice of humble pie was ready to be served around the corner.

 

...and then World of Warcraft happened

 

and the  MMO world lived unhappily ever after.

 

The End

  Agnostic42

Novice Member

Joined: 8/19/04
Posts: 375

8/26/14 1:36:34 AM#33

When i started playing EQ, the game was an adventure. Not a mission to get to the top tier as fast as possible, nor was it about how fast you could take down a group of mobs so you can get to the next group and collect their quest rewards so you can move to the next questing area, like so many MMO's today.

 

The game took time. it wasn't this sped up stuff we have today, catering to the 'instant gratification' crowd.Testament of Veneer quest comes to mind, then the Epics, now those were truly epic back in the day. When you looted a Blackened iron Bastard Sword, it meant something and would also fetch a nice price in the EC tunnel. Much like SWG after it, the game was a living virtual world. People who crafted were known, by name, because it took a long time to raise crafting skills and took some serious dedication.

 

Traveling took time, and getting somewhere without a friendly druid or wizard could take an entire play session, but those were also the most memorable play sessions. Everyone who played prior to Luclin knows at least a few stories of Islands and boats, many are downright hilarious.

 

Pulling was an art form. And, you could actually single pull. When you approached a group of mobs, you had to strategically approach how to split the camp and drag a lone orc back to camp. Not like today's games, where you solo jump into a group of giants, do a quick whirl and they all fall down. Hill Giants were tough, but also a great source of cash, up to 34pp per kill.

 

I know my opinion is kind of filtered through my rosy lenses, but hey, I had a blast.

  Karble

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/13/09
Posts: 743

I play therefor I am

8/26/14 1:52:35 AM#34
Originally posted by Aelious

Was it the combat system?

The combat system was great but a bit broken at the same time in the later expansions. Trinity was and always will be my favorite. The factions with the /con system so you could always tell how creatures or npc's felt about you. The various spells and gear and customizable UI. The broken part was the mana regen. Sitting around once in a while would be fine but the amount of time spent regaining mana was the only big negative I saw.

 

Was it the artstyle?

Art style was very well done in it's time and over the years redone fairly well. There was greatly different color and styles in most zones and characters and creatures were done well. The spell animations and other things were great for the time as well.

 

Was it the vast world?

This was very important for immersion for me. A large and dangerous world with starting areas spread out over continents with challenges both large and small everywhere. Great dungeons that were mostly not instanced with trains that added to the dangers.

 

The need for friends?

This ties in nicely with the vastness of the world. You would be able to find people around your level and group up for hours camping a dungeon or a spawn spot. This was quite rewarding in it's own right as often times, we would add to friends list and group up again to continue sometimes forming guilds or merging guilds.

 

EverQuest had more than a few features to set it apart even today.  While it's obvious that EQN has many more "new" features what at its core does it need to capture the feeling of its predecessors? Is it possible to create an experience both vets of the original franchise and new players to the genre can enjoy along with those all along the spectrum?

It is a tricky question to be quite honest. There has to be a deep meta game going for vets that compels them on several levels or it will not take root. For the new generation I believe  flashy combat mechanics, easily approachable interface that is customizable, and quality story along with some dynamic AI will keep them hooked.

 

What made EverQuest, EverQuest?

Everquest had amazing dungeon design. You know some people sat down and really thought out these amazing 3D labyrinths. The perfect pacing within each dungeon and how one small mistake could mean paying a big price for it. The named spawns and specific drops from them that became legend. The raid encounters that took a great deal of coordination and prep to succeed.

All the various class types and home cities complete with lore and npc personalities that were often unique and special to encounter. 

The expansions that always seemed to crank up the challenge and excitement and breath even more life into the game.

The day night cycle and changes that occur that often effect whole zones.

My comments in green. I could continue on about EQ, but really I am hoping EQ Next will recapture 2/3 of the presence felt by EQ. I spent many many years playing it and would very much enjoy a new stylized flavoring of my old stomping grounds. Obviously they will be drastically different, but my hope is I will be able to connect the lore and portions of the game to some distant memories of perhaps Quenos, South Karana, Oasis of Mar, Butcherblock. These could be transformed but still have some remnant for old Vets to pick up on and feel at home.

  giga1000

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/12/06
Posts: 98

8/26/14 1:59:40 AM#35

People forget it was also the Granddaddy of 3D MMOG. It was a new concept and people made a life in EQ. All games now are just Games and will ever be until some new genre is invented and people will make lives in that game.

MMOG are no longer a life style as they are just games, because well this genre has been going for 15 years+ now and we are all vets of many many MMOG.

We the players made EQ what it was and now they are all games simple as that. You can't get pre-vet life style back until a new genre or idea is invented and you throw yourself into it as we all did in original EQ.

If you ask people who started their first MMO in WoW when it launched they would have the exact same response as the people who's first MMOG was EQ. 

This will also apply to people who's first MMO will be Landmark, or EQN. 

  giga1000

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/12/06
Posts: 98

8/26/14 2:08:01 AM#36

What made EQ was right place right time. 

1: Cable, and DSL came out shortly after EQ launched as we played on 56k for a year or so until 1m cable launched a year later.

2: People were for the first time starting to use the net for entertainment at this time.

3: There wasn't anything like it.

4: First 3d world that could be explored both on PC and console.

It is easy to sum up why EQ exploded as it did. 

RIGHT PLACE RIGHT TIME!!

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2847

World > Quest Progression

 
OP  8/26/14 4:57:51 AM#37


Originally posted by Gallus85

Originally posted by Aelious

Originally posted by Gallus85 The most recent information on this states that capping out "Tier 5" takes about a week or so (faster if you're hardcore / experienced in the game and knock it out with focus). 
 What is the source for the information? I sure hope they don't do that as It would be a negative to gain 5 tiers of gear for a single class in a week or so.
Getting the tiers themselves for an unlocked class will be very fast as stated by Dave G.  It's hard to quantify how long it will take exactly, because it would depend on how many hours that player puts in and what they're doing during those hours of playtime. The general word right now is average player (not a ultra casual once a week player and not a no-life 15 hours a day hardcore) will only take a couple days to unlock a tier or two.  A hardcore gamer who puts in 8 - 12 hours a day grinding it out could probably get a tier 5 in just a few sittings.  This sounds "fast" but remember this isn't the same as a standard vertical grinder.  Tiers are not meant to be power levels, just a wider range of adaptability / customization.  And collecting classes is going to be a major part of the game, each which will need gear and their own tier grind.  So even if it only takes 5 days for a core gamer to get to tier 5 and 5 days to get all the gear they want for that class (hypothetical), they would still have maybe 10 or 20 other classes to do the same to, coming up to 100 - 200 days worth of  playing to get it all done as a hardcore gamer. Tier gear is not better, it's different/more specific to what it affects. Many people who are serious into character building will have a wide range of gear on their character from different tiers.  A tier 5 piece of gear might or might not be inferior to your druid's build than a tier 3 piece you found a few weeks ago. No idea on how hard gear will be to get, but it will probably be faster than getting gear in vertical stat grinders because all gear is useful in some way or another and the devs are expecting people to acquire dozens of different sets of gear and for them to be constantly revising their build with new gear they find.  Each class would want it's own gear and every class can be made into multiple different builds with multiclassing skills and gear combos. So you're not striving to get 15 or so of the best items in the game for you 1 class.  But possibly hundreds of pieces of gear for your array of classes and builds. In the end, it sounds "fast" for players to cap out their class to tier 5 in just a handful of days or less.  But within the scope of the game and everything else they're going to want to do for that character, this isn't really "that fast" and it has the side effect of allowing almost the entire game population to be capable of grouping and adventuring with each other very quickly, which is going to go a long way for them to give us the free-roaming adventure experience they're advertising. Seriously, with my hypothetical saying just a few days to cap out and gear up, that makes required play time of 3 - 6 months to cap out a character with gear and unlocks for all their classes. That's original-EQ levels of time required to capping out a character and a stark contrast to games like ESO where I had the best gear in the game and a capped out V10 character before the first month's subscription expired lol.
 

I finally found what I was looking for.  I'll preface this by saying this is "old" information and probably has already changed internally.  However, unless I see concrete evidence (links, etc.) I'll figure this is the best guess

 
http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/08/17/the-tattered-notebook-quips-quotes-and-eq-next-tidbits-from-s/


"On tiers: While trying to get a handle on the new concepts of EverQuest Next, some folks latched onto the term tiers as a substitute for levels. Georgeson, however, explained that the two are not just interchangeable terms for the same idea. Tier doesn't equate to power level -- it means capability. Higher tiers mean that players have a handle on how the game is played, from how to do combat to how to manipulate their skills to make various builds. It also means that they have a more robust selection of skills, giving them more flexibility to deal with situations. Unlocking tiers is a matter of demonstrating you know what's going on in the game. And moving up tiers is not going to be a laborious process: Georgeson stated, "Unlocking them is a matter of days and weeks, not years."
 

How many tiers?


http://youtu.be/mq4l3CiIM2g?t=4m27s

"tier four, during the middle of progression"


Eight? Probably not and I figure T5 will be max much like Landmark is now but will expand for EQN post launch.


Days and weeks to gain a tier sounds a lot more stable. In averaging a week per tier that's 5 weeks per class and 200 weeks for all of them. Factoring in specific gear and actually earning the other classes would push this out, maybe. I agree with most of your hypotheticals other than that capping a class within a week was a good thing. I understand mixing and matching secondary abilities is part of the meta for EQN but the time it takes to reach "max tier" should give the player enough time to play the class to know what they want to change and keep. I don't think a week is long enough for that.

  Subilac

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/09
Posts: 18

9/10/14 10:26:58 AM#38

When I started EQ as a total noob at launch, my home was the Commonlands cave along hundreds of other players. There, I made friends who I am still friends with in RL 15 years later. Zoning into lavastorm or going to highkeep felt like a true adventure. That's something I haven't experienced in any other MMO. Dying in N Karana and starting naked back in Freeport made me feel like nothing else in life mattered besides getting my body and items back. I would have to assemble my friends and make the trek back to N Karana which sometimes took days. The Oasis docks and people training spectres/sand giants was FUN!

I really don't know where I'm going, but like sharing my nostalgia. If EQNext can somehow pull off that sense of community, etc. I'm in.

  Burntvet

Elite Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 3037

9/10/14 10:33:26 AM#39
On top of everything else people have mentioned, an interface and gameplay not designed to run on a PS controller.
  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2847

World > Quest Progression

 
OP  9/10/14 11:33:35 AM#40
Burntvet

Although EQN and EQ seem to share the same amount of active abilities, special weapon/armor abilities as well, the pace and feel of combat will be much different. That and the art style are probably the two differentiating factors between them to be honest, that we have info on.

I'd does seem like there is still a need to know your class/role and be a good player. With this system the player skill aspect may be even higher. That will depend on the kind and amount of difficult content there is in Next, which I hope there is a lot.
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