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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » EQN Next - How they could have kept Vet players and bring in new.

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53 posts found
  Excession

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/16/06
Posts: 366

Political correctness is tyranny with manners

8/26/14 8:03:35 AM#41
Originally posted by tort0429

Ok, first off I know nothing about how graphic engines work, their cost and how much they have to do with the art in a game, so my idea here could be a complete pipe dream or fantasy, but if only....

In eq2 you have the option of selecting a character 'model' type.  US type or European type, I believe.   When selecting one or the other, your character's appearence completely changes.  So, why not have the same type of option in EQN but on a larger scale.

Meaning, suppose you had to versions of EQN.  One called EQN-YA (young adult) and EQN-MA (mature adult).  When installing the software, you select which type you want.  The YA version is the current cartooney style version many of the vets don't like and the MA version could be more in line with eq2 graphics but better since that is a 10 year old game.

Now you reach the new target younger audience and also keep the Vets dedicated to EQ1 and EQ2.

Again, not knowing anything about graphic engines, cost, etc.. this could be something that is just too costly a risk for them to take, but how awesome would it be to have the option to pick one or the other - the best of both worlds.

Play with my kids on EQN - YA and then later with my adult friends on EQN - MA.    This of course assumes that many of the vets will not play the cartooney version.  Me personally, if the game is fun it's fun, but I do prefer a non - cartooney graphic game so wish this was even possible.

I know, I like dreaming.   :)

 

As far as EQ and EQ2 go, any players of those that do not like the aesthetics of EQN, will just stick with playing EQ/EQ2, so, the vets will stay where they are vets, and EQN will bring in new players, so SOE are pretty much doing what your title suggests they are not.

A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 6394

8/26/14 8:31:35 AM#42
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Kyleran
They are less concerned with appealing to the Vet EQ crowd as it is a very small subset of their target audience, the mega millions of game players who've joined the genre since then and who clearly prefer a different playable.

This will be in almost no way EQ3, and far closer to ESO and other more modern, action combat MMOs.

I'm an old school EQ vet. I followed news on the game for months and was there on day 1, March 16th, 1999 at the store to pick up my copy and I played it nearly every day for about 5 years.

I think they are appealing directly to me because to me EQ was about the adventure, growing a character and socializing with people.  

EQN is offering horizontal progression and giving a true free-roaming adventure experience.  

Emergent AI, voxels and proceedurly generated content is going to make the free-roaming world fresh and interesting to explore for years on end and won't relegate me to a few "high level zones".

High levels of character customization (their horizontal gear system, multiclassing, etc).

Getting back to the Tank/Healer/CC trilogy.

Massive world changing events with rallying calls.

etc etc.

I'm an EQ vet and I feel they are aiming right at me without resorting to archaic and dated mechanics and systems.  So don't make such blanket statements please.  It's ok if you don't think the game will appeal to you, but don't act as if they're alienating "EQ vets". You either like what they're offering or you don't.  It has little or nothing to do with being an EQ vet or not.

     Archaic game play like the art of "pulling" a single mob?  or the skill of quad kiting?  or the archaic ability to morph or use illusions to avoid detection like "Wolf Form"?  or did you mean "fear kiting"?  Will EQN allow mass mez? and what about archaic skills like "levitate" etc etc..  I loved being a druid in EQ1.. I wonder if SOE has "ME" targeted when they created EQNext????  I better have "snare and SoW" when I play a druid, or all hell will break lose.. LOL

 

To expand on features that EQ1 has that have been abandoned by most new MMOs:

1. No mob leashing - for those unfamiliar with the term, it means once you aggroed something it would NOT give up chase until you died, you zoned or killed whatever was after you. This mechanic alone led to lots of emergent gameplay - such as kiting, fear kiting, quadding, swarming, training(as in train of mobs on another player) pet kiting, etc....

EQN will be seamless world - meaning mobs will leash, so you can just keep running past them and they will leash back to their spawn - just mount up and run past stuff - easy mode, yes so many new games are like this, I am not a fan. 

2. Split pulling/aggro control - in EQ1 almost all NPCs had a faction, and NPCs friendly to each other would jump to each others aid in combat. Example you are fighting an Orc, another Orc wandering by would normally just walk by but will jump to aid of his Orc friend and attack you.

Classes were given tools to wipe aggro so there was an entire emergent gameplay when it came to splitting mobs that would normally come in a large group - feign death, pet pulling, mez, stun, fear etc... lots of abilities were used in combinations to split seemingly impossible groups of mobs.

EQN - we don't know yet, I doubt that we will see such deep aggro management system

3. super slow combat - a combat round in EQ1 was 6 seconds, yeah unheard of in today's MMORPGs. You would miss more often than hit as mobs would block, dodge, parry, spells could fizzle, AE spells would also hit YOU, so you could kill yourself in combat with your own AE spells. The slow pacing of combat gave players more time for strategic play as well as being able to type and chat.

EQN combat again - seems very fast - as something you'd see in a console fighting game (which I am a fan of) but it kills more strategic combat as action happens too fast. Its closer to a single player action game, also voice chat will be mandatory as you can't type and do action combat at the same time

4. Death sting - you die, all of your gear is on your corpse - you are naked hungry and thirsty and need to retrieve your corpse which could be an hour away (as boats were SLOW). Maybe you could find a friendly wizard or druid to give you a teleport to a nearby zone, and maybe a friendly necro would summon your corpse once you got to the zone? Player interdependence - EQ1 had it in spades.

I seriously doubt that EQN will have anything remotely close

Call these systems archaic - they are still revolutionary. EQ1s world was harsh and unforgiving, which made it rewarding and fun as well.

 

Those systems aren't revolutionary.  

They actually are - EQ1 introduced most of these systems back in march of 1999 - EQ1 was a pioneer in the world of MMORPGs and revolutionized online gaming as we know it. 

1.  Mob leashing is put in place so you don't got one guy with a speed spell pulling the entire area, or world, creating massive technical and game play problems.  

Correct - the offest to this was zones and the fact that a large group of mobs would splat-insta kill you if you got hit once (as hits to the back had a HUGE chance of stun- and you get stunned while kiting = death). 

IMO - the PROs of the system outweigh the cons. I can say with a good chance of certainty that EQN will not have kiting - as with action combat kiting makes less sense. Also with a seamless world without leashing players could just crash the server by pulling 1000s of mobs into one area and just causing a complete Charlie Foxtrot for everyone else.

Again no leashing works great in zone based games, seamless worlds - not so much.

And most games that have leashing still have things like kiting.

In a hugely limited way - you can only kite a small group of mobs in a very tight area - hence it sucks compared to EQ1s entire zone kiting. I once pulled every single spider/scarab in North Ro with my bard and killed them all, crazy fun - yes it did piss off about 20-30 players.

 

 I think the point is to make combat fun and allowing for different playstyles without allowing for cheap tricks that get people kills they should not be getting (kiting a raid mob solo for example).  

I am not sure what game has raid mobs that you can kite - EQ1 certainty did not - Raid mobs in EQ1 had summon and death touch - so no single person could ever kill them period during EQ1 vanilla days. All major bosses in EQ1 had abilites that made them impossible to kite.

 

But EQN could quite possibly have a great combat system.

It could have the best system we've ever seen - remains to be seen.

 They've already expressed that skill will matter, there will be an array of different play styles and CC is coming back in a huge way.  

Again remains to be seen, maybe yes, maybe no - I'll wait til the actual final classes and abilites are actually in game after all the balance and tuning before I say anything about the state of CC in EQN.

What's not to be excited about?  That it's different?  Welcome to reality where everything isn't an exact clone.

I am with you here - different is great if  it ends up being *good* and fun. Again it remains to be seen. 

2.  EQN will have monks.  Nothing says EQN can't/won't have split pulling.  It might have it.  It might not.

Exacftly - we don't know, which is the case with most things EQN - we know devs ideas and desires - we don't know what they'll be able to deliver in actual finished product yet.

3.  Slow combat is revolutionary?  It's just a different* design.  Just because you prefer* something doesn't make it revolutionary lol.

Maybe I was speaking out of context - let me make a correction - slow combat allows for more relaxed gameplay, that allows "type chatting" and relaxed attitude towards the game. It also allows for a bit of relaxed tactical approach - you attack something - after 30 seconds you see that the mob you are fighting is at 50% HP, you are at 60% HP - do you continue, or do you run?

Slower combat gives you that space to think for a few seconds - where action combat is all reaction, there's no time to kick back and relax while fighting - and voice chat is necessary (which I personally sometimes dislike - at the end of the day I don't want to hear myself or another human being talking period). 

4. LoK and UO had far worst death penalties than EQ for example, and a lot of games after EQ released had worst penalties.  The point is that they need to make it so death is something you want to avoid, but without making it so stupidly painful that everyone hides from conflict or refuses to take part in big events where death is likely.

Harsh death penalty for the sake of being harsh are pointless. EQ1 did it right as it made sense and it fit the overall *game*.  EQN will have whatever kind of system that SoE finds fit their design the best - since I personally think that EQN is aimed squarely at the vast console market - the death penalty will be most likely be very minor.

I seriously doubt EQN will fail to deliver a good experience for those who are open minded and willing to adapt.

Again we don't know - I would speculate that EQN will not deliver much for the EQ1 or EQ2 player - it will deliver a lot for those who like to play action games with a controller - again 100% my speculation

 

 

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1443

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

8/26/14 2:34:03 PM#43


Originally posted by DMKano
...Slower combat gives you that space to think for a few seconds - where action combat is all reaction, there's no time to kick back and relax while fighting - and voice chat is necessary (which I personally sometimes dislike - at the end of the day I don't want to hear myself or another human being talking period)...

I hate voice chat; it's immersion breaking to hear some little squeeky voice coming from the big bad ogre; or some man voice coming from the hot wood elf. Hasn't typing 101 been required in school for the past 20 years?



Originally posted by DMKano
I would speculate that EQN will not deliver much for the EQ1 or EQ2 player - it will deliver a lot for those who like to play action games with a controller - again 100% my speculation

I fully agree; EQN has shown no interest in attracting the millions who played and loved the Everquest franchise. They want young people who play consoles and perhaps WoW.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  evilized

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 565

8/26/14 2:45:47 PM#44
I can tell you that the number of "vets" put off by the art style of EQN will be so minuscule in the grand scheme of things that it would be a waste of money for them to spend the time developing the alternate models.

I say this as a vet who still has many vet friends from both EQ and EQ2.

  Markn

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/14/10
Posts: 123

8/26/14 2:50:52 PM#45
All these replies and all someone had to say is why would they make a game that attracted people from 2 profitable games EQ/EQ2 ?  They want to attract the people NOT playing them games.
  Markn

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/14/10
Posts: 123

8/26/14 2:51:42 PM#46
Originally posted by evilized
I can tell you that the number of "vets" put off by the art style of EQN will be so minuscule in the grand scheme of things that it would be a waste of money for them to spend the time developing the alternate models.

 

I say this as a vet who still has many vet friends from both EQ and EQ2.

 

Still playing EQ and the fact that my all access will give me all access to EQN means I will likely play that to.

  evilized

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 565

8/26/14 2:56:50 PM#47
Originally posted by Markn
Originally posted by evilized
I can tell you that the number of "vets" put off by the art style of EQN will be so minuscule in the grand scheme of things that it would be a waste of money for them to spend the time developing the alternate models.

 

I say this as a vet who still has many vet friends from both EQ and EQ2.

 

Still playing EQ and the fact that my all access will give me all access to EQN means I will likely play that to.

 

A very good point you make. All access including EQN alone will bring a good portion of current SOE subscribers over to at least try the game with all its bells and whistles. I'm super excited by the fact that the phrase "Ever Crack" could become a household saying in the next couple years.
  Nadia

Tipster

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11785

8/26/14 3:01:49 PM#48
Originally posted by AmbrosiaAmor

Yeah I miss these. FFXI did it right. Danger at every turn! And at night you had to worry about low health aggro. Shame that we will probably not see these ever again (well maybe from an indie title) but certainly not from a AAA title.

you were referring to FFXI

but the comment reminded me how low health was the ultimate mob taunt in EQ1

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 6095

8/26/14 3:09:23 PM#49
I wish some people wouldn't speak for entire demographics. I'm an older player, having started out with Lineage and games from that era. I'll make a decision when I actually play EQN, but I like what I'm reading so far. I like what I've played of Landmark.

Curse you AquaScum!

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3709

8/26/14 3:09:55 PM#50
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by AmbrosiaAmor

Yeah I miss these. FFXI did it right. Danger at every turn! And at night you had to worry about low health aggro. Shame that we will probably not see these ever again (well maybe from an indie title) but certainly not from a AAA title.

you were referring to FFXI

but the comment reminded me how low health was the ultimate mob taunt in EQ1

I forget the name of the zone just outside of the Hobbit area that at night spawned undead. I remember one fight where the undead beat me down to a hair of HP left but I won the fight only to be killed by a low level Bixi Bee lol Funny how stuff like that turns into some of the best times you had MMOing.

  evilized

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 565

8/26/14 3:13:30 PM#51
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by AmbrosiaAmor

Yeah I miss these. FFXI did it right. Danger at every turn! And at night you had to worry about low health aggro. Shame that we will probably not see these ever again (well maybe from an indie title) but certainly not from a AAA title.

you were referring to FFXI

but the comment reminded me how low health was the ultimate mob taunt in EQ1

I forget the name of the zone just outside of the Hobbit area that at night spawned undead. I remember one fight where the undead beat me down to a hair of HP left but I won the fight only to be killed by a low level Bixi Bee lol Funny how stuff like that turns into some of the best times you had MMOing.

 Kithicor Forest.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16835

8/26/14 3:15:03 PM#52
Originally posted by tort0429

Ok, first off I know nothing about how graphic engines work, their cost and how much they have to do with the art in a game, so my idea here could be a complete pipe dream or fantasy, but if only....

In eq2 you have the option of selecting a character 'model' type.  US type or European type, I believe.   When selecting one or the other, your character's appearence completely changes.  So, why not have the same type of option in EQN but on a larger scale.

Meaning, suppose you had to versions of EQN.  One called EQN-YA (young adult) and EQN-MA (mature adult).  When installing the software, you select which type you want.  The YA version is the current cartooney style version many of the vets don't like and the MA version could be more in line with eq2 graphics but better since that is a 10 year old game.

Now you reach the new target younger audience and also keep the Vets dedicated to EQ1 and EQ2.

Again, not knowing anything about graphic engines, cost, etc.. this could be something that is just too costly a risk for them to take, but how awesome would it be to have the option to pick one or the other - the best of both worlds.

Play with my kids on EQN - YA and then later with my adult friends on EQN - MA.    This of course assumes that many of the vets will not play the cartooney version.  Me personally, if the game is fun it's fun, but I do prefer a non - cartooney graphic game so wish this was even possible.

I know, I like dreaming.   :)

SOE Korean department did make Korean skins for all races in the Korean version, and as a bonus did SOE US/EU add them as an option (the work was already done after all).

Making something similar is indeed possible but I can tell you that they would charge you now to add something like it. They would not do it like you suggest though, it would be an option in the itemshop.

But you can always suggest it on the official forum, if there is enough interested people SOE might indeed add it, they usually don't say no to some extra bucks.

Everquest isn't so much a graphic style as a world though, and the graphicstyle is not even on my list for worries about the game.

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3709

8/26/14 5:12:57 PM#53
Originally posted by evilized
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by AmbrosiaAmor

Yeah I miss these. FFXI did it right. Danger at every turn! And at night you had to worry about low health aggro. Shame that we will probably not see these ever again (well maybe from an indie title) but certainly not from a AAA title.

you were referring to FFXI

but the comment reminded me how low health was the ultimate mob taunt in EQ1

I forget the name of the zone just outside of the Hobbit area that at night spawned undead. I remember one fight where the undead beat me down to a hair of HP left but I won the fight only to be killed by a low level Bixi Bee lol Funny how stuff like that turns into some of the best times you had MMOing.

 Kithicor Forest.

Thanks =-) 

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