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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » EQN Next - How they could have kept Vet players and bring in new.

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53 posts found
  sgtalon

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/30/04
Posts: 116

8/25/14 9:09:56 AM#21

I don't think graphics have a thing to do with why people are turned off by EQN. It is the Pay2Test model that they have. 

If you want to play Landmark you have to give them $40. Regular Beta invites are only 7 days. 

No thanks. I will play EQ:N but I won't be participating in a beta that I have to pay for... Esoecially for a game that is going to be FREE!!!!

 

  Nadia

Tipster

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11785

8/25/14 9:15:25 AM#22
Originally posted by sgtalon

I don't think graphics have a thing to do with why people are turned off by EQN. It is the Pay2Test model that they have. 

If you want to play Landmark you have to give them $40. Regular Beta invites are only 7 days. 

No thanks. I will play EQ:N but I won't be participating in a beta that I have to pay for... Esoecially for a game that is going to be FREE!!!!

the game is not released yet

if you want to play Landmark while the game is being built,  yes, you can pay for the privelege

 

the lowest cost is $20.00

https://www.landmarkthegame.com/news/wal-mart-exclusive-landmark-card-bonus-packs-2000-station-cash-lm

and if you buy it at Walmart, comes with $20.00 worth of Station Cash useable in any SOE game

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

8/25/14 9:17:47 AM#23
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Kyleran
They are less concerned with appealing to the Vet EQ crowd as it is a very small subset of their target audience, the mega millions of game players who've joined the genre since then and who clearly prefer a different playable.

This will be in almost no way EQ3, and far closer to ESO and other more modern, action combat MMOs.

I'm an old school EQ vet. I followed news on the game for months and was there on day 1, March 16th, 1999 at the store to pick up my copy and I played it nearly every day for about 5 years.

I think they are appealing directly to me because to me EQ was about the adventure, growing a character and socializing with people.  

EQN is offering horizontal progression and giving a true free-roaming adventure experience.  

Emergent AI, voxels and proceedurly generated content is going to make the free-roaming world fresh and interesting to explore for years on end and won't relegate me to a few "high level zones".

High levels of character customization (their horizontal gear system, multiclassing, etc).

Getting back to the Tank/Healer/CC trilogy.

Massive world changing events with rallying calls.

etc etc.

I'm an EQ vet and I feel they are aiming right at me without resorting to archaic and dated mechanics and systems.  So don't make such blanket statements please.  It's ok if you don't think the game will appeal to you, but don't act as if they're alienating "EQ vets". You either like what they're offering or you don't.  It has little or nothing to do with being an EQ vet or not.

     Archaic game play like the art of "pulling" a single mob? 

EQN might have that, especially since the game will have monks.

  or the skill of quad kiting?  Ya running around in a circle as a druid in EQ1 getting more exp than other classes could due to imbalance took a lot of "skill" lol.  No but seriously, what does this have to do with anything I said?

  or the archaic ability to morph or use illusions to avoid detection like "Wolf Form"?  40 classes, and a whole set of skills dedicated to "utility".  I would be surprised if illusions and animal forms weren't in the game.

or did you mean "fear kiting"?  I'm sure different builds and different classes in EQN will have different solo play styles. 

Will EQN allow mass mez?  CC is going to be a large part of EQN, as already stated by the devs.

and what about archaic skills like "levitate" etc etc..  I loved being a druid in EQ1.. I wonder if SOE has "ME" targeted when they created EQNext????  I better have "snare and SoW" when I play a druid, or all hell will break lose.. LOL

As I already said, utility skills have already been addressed.  Offensive, Defensive, Movement, Utility.  So they're dedicating a whole skill-type to utility.  Things like SoW, levitate, invis, clarity, and many more will probably be making it into the game.

I was more specifically referring to things like slow monotonous vertical progression, tab target combat that have been done to death over the past 15 years.

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  keenber

Novice Member

Joined: 7/10/07
Posts: 439

8/25/14 9:41:28 AM#24
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Kyleran
They are less concerned with appealing to the Vet EQ crowd as it is a very small subset of their target audience, the mega millions of game players who've joined the genre since then and who clearly prefer a different playable.

This will be in almost no way EQ3, and far closer to ESO and other more modern, action combat MMOs.

I'm an old school EQ vet. I followed news on the game for months and was there on day 1, March 16th, 1999 at the store to pick up my copy and I played it nearly every day for about 5 years.

I think they are appealing directly to me because to me EQ was about the adventure, growing a character and socializing with people.  

EQN is offering horizontal progression and giving a true free-roaming adventure experience.  

Emergent AI, voxels and proceedurly generated content is going to make the free-roaming world fresh and interesting to explore for years on end and won't relegate me to a few "high level zones".

High levels of character customization (their horizontal gear system, multiclassing, etc).

Getting back to the Tank/Healer/CC trilogy.

Massive world changing events with rallying calls.

etc etc.

I'm an EQ vet and I feel they are aiming right at me without resorting to archaic and dated mechanics and systems.  So don't make such blanket statements please.  It's ok if you don't think the game will appeal to you, but don't act as if they're alienating "EQ vets". You either like what they're offering or you don't.  It has little or nothing to do with being an EQ vet or not.

     Archaic game play like the art of "pulling" a single mob? 

EQN might have that, especially since the game will have monks.

  or the skill of quad kiting?  Ya running around in a circle as a druid in EQ1 getting more exp than other classes could due to imbalance took a lot of "skill" lol.  No but seriously, what does this have to do with anything I said?

  or the archaic ability to morph or use illusions to avoid detection like "Wolf Form"?  40 classes, and a whole set of skills dedicated to "utility".  I would be surprised if illusions and animal forms weren't in the game.

or did you mean "fear kiting"?  I'm sure different builds and different classes in EQN will have different solo play styles. 

Will EQN allow mass mez?  CC is going to be a large part of EQN, as already stated by the devs.

and what about archaic skills like "levitate" etc etc..  I loved being a druid in EQ1.. I wonder if SOE has "ME" targeted when they created EQNext????  I better have "snare and SoW" when I play a druid, or all hell will break lose.. LOL

As I already said, utility skills have already been addressed.  Offensive, Defensive, Movement, Utility.  So they're dedicating a whole skill-type to utility.  Things like SoW, levitate, invis, clarity, and many more will probably be making it into the game.

I was more specifically referring to things like slow monotonous vertical progression, tab target combat that have been done to death over the past 15 years.

From what I understand there will be nothing but aoe and GW2 tactics of  gang banging the mobs . Cc will be nothing like EQ it will just be a wall or root type thing. Pulling will be none unless mobs are sociable and not tethered to each other. When any class can heal and tank then there will be no healer/tank tactics.  Without tab targeting this is just gonna be a gank fest and with the lack of options when fighting everybody is gonna be left running in circles shooting of aoes. The only way this resembles EQ is in name and the name of places.

The art style is terrible and is a huge off put for anybody even console players that want to get immersed in a game for any length of time.

This can off course all change by the time it is released but I don't believe with the voxel graphics and NPC ai they had any choice but choose the low graphic color pallet.

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 6395

8/25/14 9:45:21 AM#25
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Kyleran
They are less concerned with appealing to the Vet EQ crowd as it is a very small subset of their target audience, the mega millions of game players who've joined the genre since then and who clearly prefer a different playable.

This will be in almost no way EQ3, and far closer to ESO and other more modern, action combat MMOs.

I'm an old school EQ vet. I followed news on the game for months and was there on day 1, March 16th, 1999 at the store to pick up my copy and I played it nearly every day for about 5 years.

I think they are appealing directly to me because to me EQ was about the adventure, growing a character and socializing with people.  

EQN is offering horizontal progression and giving a true free-roaming adventure experience.  

Emergent AI, voxels and proceedurly generated content is going to make the free-roaming world fresh and interesting to explore for years on end and won't relegate me to a few "high level zones".

High levels of character customization (their horizontal gear system, multiclassing, etc).

Getting back to the Tank/Healer/CC trilogy.

Massive world changing events with rallying calls.

etc etc.

I'm an EQ vet and I feel they are aiming right at me without resorting to archaic and dated mechanics and systems.  So don't make such blanket statements please.  It's ok if you don't think the game will appeal to you, but don't act as if they're alienating "EQ vets". You either like what they're offering or you don't.  It has little or nothing to do with being an EQ vet or not.

     Archaic game play like the art of "pulling" a single mob?  or the skill of quad kiting?  or the archaic ability to morph or use illusions to avoid detection like "Wolf Form"?  or did you mean "fear kiting"?  Will EQN allow mass mez? and what about archaic skills like "levitate" etc etc..  I loved being a druid in EQ1.. I wonder if SOE has "ME" targeted when they created EQNext????  I better have "snare and SoW" when I play a druid, or all hell will break lose.. LOL

 

To expand on features that EQ1 has that have been abandoned by most new MMOs:

1. No mob leashing - for those unfamiliar with the term, it means once you aggroed something it would NOT give up chase until you died, you zoned or killed whatever was after you. This mechanic alone led to lots of emergent gameplay - such as kiting, fear kiting, quadding, swarming, training(as in train of mobs on another player) pet kiting, etc....

EQN will be seamless world - meaning mobs will leash, so you can just keep running past them and they will leash back to their spawn - just mount up and run past stuff - easy mode, yes so many new games are like this, I am not a fan. 

2. Split pulling/aggro control - in EQ1 almost all NPCs had a faction, and NPCs friendly to each other would jump to each others aid in combat. Example you are fighting an Orc, another Orc wandering by would normally just walk by but will jump to aid of his Orc friend and attack you.

Classes were given tools to wipe aggro so there was an entire emergent gameplay when it came to splitting mobs that would normally come in a large group - feign death, pet pulling, mez, stun, fear etc... lots of abilities were used in combinations to split seemingly impossible groups of mobs.

EQN - we don't know yet, I doubt that we will see such deep aggro management system

3. super slow combat - a combat round in EQ1 was 6 seconds, yeah unheard of in today's MMORPGs. You would miss more often than hit as mobs would block, dodge, parry, spells could fizzle, AE spells would also hit YOU, so you could kill yourself in combat with your own AE spells. The slow pacing of combat gave players more time for strategic play as well as being able to type and chat.

EQN combat again - seems very fast - as something you'd see in a console fighting game (which I am a fan of) but it kills more strategic combat as action happens too fast. Its closer to a single player action game, also voice chat will be mandatory as you can't type and do action combat at the same time

4. Death sting - you die, all of your gear is on your corpse - you are naked hungry and thirsty and need to retrieve your corpse which could be an hour away (as boats were SLOW). Maybe you could find a friendly wizard or druid to give you a teleport to a nearby zone, and maybe a friendly necro would summon your corpse once you got to the zone? Player interdependence - EQ1 had it in spades.

I seriously doubt that EQN will have anything remotely close

Call these systems archaic - they are still revolutionary. EQ1s world was harsh and unforgiving, which made it rewarding and fun as well.

 

 

 

 

  DamonVile

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4909

8/25/14 10:28:17 AM#26
Originally posted by DMKano
 

Call these systems archaic - they are still revolutionary. EQ1s world was harsh and unforgiving, which made it rewarding and fun as well.

  

For a very small group of people.

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

8/25/14 11:14:21 AM#27
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Kyleran
They are less concerned with appealing to the Vet EQ crowd as it is a very small subset of their target audience, the mega millions of game players who've joined the genre since then and who clearly prefer a different playable.

This will be in almost no way EQ3, and far closer to ESO and other more modern, action combat MMOs.

I'm an old school EQ vet. I followed news on the game for months and was there on day 1, March 16th, 1999 at the store to pick up my copy and I played it nearly every day for about 5 years.

I think they are appealing directly to me because to me EQ was about the adventure, growing a character and socializing with people.  

EQN is offering horizontal progression and giving a true free-roaming adventure experience.  

Emergent AI, voxels and proceedurly generated content is going to make the free-roaming world fresh and interesting to explore for years on end and won't relegate me to a few "high level zones".

High levels of character customization (their horizontal gear system, multiclassing, etc).

Getting back to the Tank/Healer/CC trilogy.

Massive world changing events with rallying calls.

etc etc.

I'm an EQ vet and I feel they are aiming right at me without resorting to archaic and dated mechanics and systems.  So don't make such blanket statements please.  It's ok if you don't think the game will appeal to you, but don't act as if they're alienating "EQ vets". You either like what they're offering or you don't.  It has little or nothing to do with being an EQ vet or not.

     Archaic game play like the art of "pulling" a single mob?  or the skill of quad kiting?  or the archaic ability to morph or use illusions to avoid detection like "Wolf Form"?  or did you mean "fear kiting"?  Will EQN allow mass mez? and what about archaic skills like "levitate" etc etc..  I loved being a druid in EQ1.. I wonder if SOE has "ME" targeted when they created EQNext????  I better have "snare and SoW" when I play a druid, or all hell will break lose.. LOL

 

To expand on features that EQ1 has that have been abandoned by most new MMOs:

1. No mob leashing - for those unfamiliar with the term, it means once you aggroed something it would NOT give up chase until you died, you zoned or killed whatever was after you. This mechanic alone led to lots of emergent gameplay - such as kiting, fear kiting, quadding, swarming, training(as in train of mobs on another player) pet kiting, etc....

EQN will be seamless world - meaning mobs will leash, so you can just keep running past them and they will leash back to their spawn - just mount up and run past stuff - easy mode, yes so many new games are like this, I am not a fan. 

2. Split pulling/aggro control - in EQ1 almost all NPCs had a faction, and NPCs friendly to each other would jump to each others aid in combat. Example you are fighting an Orc, another Orc wandering by would normally just walk by but will jump to aid of his Orc friend and attack you.

Classes were given tools to wipe aggro so there was an entire emergent gameplay when it came to splitting mobs that would normally come in a large group - feign death, pet pulling, mez, stun, fear etc... lots of abilities were used in combinations to split seemingly impossible groups of mobs.

EQN - we don't know yet, I doubt that we will see such deep aggro management system

3. super slow combat - a combat round in EQ1 was 6 seconds, yeah unheard of in today's MMORPGs. You would miss more often than hit as mobs would block, dodge, parry, spells could fizzle, AE spells would also hit YOU, so you could kill yourself in combat with your own AE spells. The slow pacing of combat gave players more time for strategic play as well as being able to type and chat.

EQN combat again - seems very fast - as something you'd see in a console fighting game (which I am a fan of) but it kills more strategic combat as action happens too fast. Its closer to a single player action game, also voice chat will be mandatory as you can't type and do action combat at the same time

4. Death sting - you die, all of your gear is on your corpse - you are naked hungry and thirsty and need to retrieve your corpse which could be an hour away (as boats were SLOW). Maybe you could find a friendly wizard or druid to give you a teleport to a nearby zone, and maybe a friendly necro would summon your corpse once you got to the zone? Player interdependence - EQ1 had it in spades.

I seriously doubt that EQN will have anything remotely close

Call these systems archaic - they are still revolutionary. EQ1s world was harsh and unforgiving, which made it rewarding and fun as well.

 

Those systems aren't revolutionary.  

1.  Mob leashing is put in place so you don't got one guy with a speed spell pulling the entire area, or world, creating massive technical and game play problems.  And most games that have leashing still have things like kiting.  I think the point is to make combat fun and allowing for different playstyles without allowing for cheap tricks that get people kills they should not be getting (kiting a raid mob solo for example).  But EQN could quite possibly have a great combat system.  They've already expressed that skill will matter, there will be an array of different play styles and CC is coming back in a huge way.  What's not to be excited about?  That it's different?  Welcome to reality where everything isn't an exact clone.

2.  EQN will have monks.  Nothing says EQN can't/won't have split pulling.  It might have it.  It might not.

3.  Slow combat is revolutionary?  It's just a different* design.  Just because you prefer* something doesn't make it revolutionary lol.

4. LoK and UO had far worst death penalties than EQ for example, and a lot of games after EQ released had worst penalties.  The point is that they need to make it so death is something you want to avoid, but without making it so stupidly painful that everyone hides from conflict or refuses to take part in big events where death is likely.

I seriously doubt EQN will fail to deliver a good experience for those who are open minded and willing to adapt.

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  amx23

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/14
Posts: 107

8/25/14 11:30:40 AM#28
Originally posted by keenber
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Kyleran
They are less concerned with appealing to the Vet EQ crowd as it is a very small subset of their target audience, the mega millions of game players who've joined the genre since then and who clearly prefer a different playable.

This will be in almost no way EQ3, and far closer to ESO and other more modern, action combat MMOs.

I'm an old school EQ vet. I followed news on the game for months and was there on day 1, March 16th, 1999 at the store to pick up my copy and I played it nearly every day for about 5 years.

I think they are appealing directly to me because to me EQ was about the adventure, growing a character and socializing with people.  

EQN is offering horizontal progression and giving a true free-roaming adventure experience.  

Emergent AI, voxels and proceedurly generated content is going to make the free-roaming world fresh and interesting to explore for years on end and won't relegate me to a few "high level zones".

High levels of character customization (their horizontal gear system, multiclassing, etc).

Getting back to the Tank/Healer/CC trilogy.

Massive world changing events with rallying calls.

etc etc.

I'm an EQ vet and I feel they are aiming right at me without resorting to archaic and dated mechanics and systems.  So don't make such blanket statements please.  It's ok if you don't think the game will appeal to you, but don't act as if they're alienating "EQ vets". You either like what they're offering or you don't.  It has little or nothing to do with being an EQ vet or not.

     Archaic game play like the art of "pulling" a single mob? 

EQN might have that, especially since the game will have monks.

  or the skill of quad kiting?  Ya running around in a circle as a druid in EQ1 getting more exp than other classes could due to imbalance took a lot of "skill" lol.  No but seriously, what does this have to do with anything I said?

  or the archaic ability to morph or use illusions to avoid detection like "Wolf Form"?  40 classes, and a whole set of skills dedicated to "utility".  I would be surprised if illusions and animal forms weren't in the game.

or did you mean "fear kiting"?  I'm sure different builds and different classes in EQN will have different solo play styles. 

Will EQN allow mass mez?  CC is going to be a large part of EQN, as already stated by the devs.

and what about archaic skills like "levitate" etc etc..  I loved being a druid in EQ1.. I wonder if SOE has "ME" targeted when they created EQNext????  I better have "snare and SoW" when I play a druid, or all hell will break lose.. LOL

As I already said, utility skills have already been addressed.  Offensive, Defensive, Movement, Utility.  So they're dedicating a whole skill-type to utility.  Things like SoW, levitate, invis, clarity, and many more will probably be making it into the game.

I was more specifically referring to things like slow monotonous vertical progression, tab target combat that have been done to death over the past 15 years.

From what I understand there will be nothing but aoe and GW2 tactics of  gang banging the mobs . Cc will be nothing like EQ it will just be a wall or root type thing. Pulling will be none unless mobs are sociable and not tethered to each other. When any class can heal and tank then there will be no healer/tank tactics.  Without tab targeting this is just gonna be a gank fest and with the lack of options when fighting everybody is gonna be left running in circles shooting of aoes. The only way this resembles EQ is in name and the name of places.

The art style is terrible and is a huge off put for anybody even console players that want to get immersed in a game for any length of time.

This can off course all change by the time it is released but I don't believe with the voxel graphics and NPC ai they had any choice but choose the low graphic color pallet.

Try zerging a "whirldwind" attack...The combat being a moba CC would be like controlling the battlefield. there are different variations to control the battle field for example the cleric and elementalist. They havent showed the bard or enchanter or other cc classes yet. And they are right, In the original Everquest the warrior can out dps a rogue and other melee classes traded off damage output for their ability to be a "Hybrid". So there was no dps class in the formula other than trade offs for abilities like lockpicking and sneak and magic or feign death.So healing armor or health or both in certain situations can be a more interesting way of just healing hitpoints. More tactical too, So you have to be good as a healer. While the enchanter heals energy i think that will be the only class that will have little offensive ability and just stick to crowd control. There is no taunt and the enemies are smart they will just cc the tank to get to the healer anyway for example. anyone who is doing the most effectiveness in the fight they will target. Try zerging an elementalist mob who is more dangerous close to mid range and has the ability to set people on fire. Who knows what they have in store...

  amx23

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/14
Posts: 107

8/25/14 12:29:52 PM#29

I mean have you ever rushed tanks to a mob and that has AE and while the tanks are getting slaughtered  the healers are just spamming the heal button? The general feeling is "Oh fuck". How tactical. Must be the holy trinity at work all the "strategists" were talking about.

Its been said the mobs in EQNext will never fight the same way so theres no raid leader on team speak telling us how to take down the target after the third try. Its not predictable and depends on what is being done in the battlefield. Thats Emergent A.I. Wouldn't you want to play a game like that?

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

8/25/14 2:03:15 PM#30
Originally posted by keenber

From what I understand there will be nothing but aoe and GW2 tactics of  gang banging the mobs . 

Nope.  Don't know who told you that, but that's incorrect.

Cc will be nothing like EQ it will just be a wall or root type thing.

Do you want EQ1.5 or do you want a new game? EQN will have CC as a major part of the gameplay as already stated by the devs and you have no gameplay experience in EQN to see if they were lying or not.

 Mezzes, snares, roots, stuns, knockbacks, fears and all sorts of other abilities will be a great way to fight large groups of mobs.  This has already been stated by the devs.  Sure you might want to be pessimistic about their ability to do it well, and in the end it might suck, but nothing they've shown so far and nothing they've said about the game's development could lead you to making any meaningful judgement about this right now.  All we have really are their words, which directly contradict your comments.

Pulling will be none unless mobs are sociable and not tethered to each other.

Maybe.  And do you somehow know for a fact that all mobs won't be tethered together? 

When any class can heal and tank then there will be no healer/tank tactics.  

Incorrect, there will just be larger variety of tactics to use.  Some groups may have dedicated healers with a dedicated tank.  Other groups might go very CC heavy and use kiting and control to kill mobs safely.  Another group might have everyone be a jack of all trades to make up for no dedicated healer/tank.  The point of EQN's system is to give players freedom in the character's they build, instead of forcing a rigid group makeup with limited tactics and choices to choose from..

Without tab targeting this is just gonna be a gank fest and with the lack of options when fighting everybody is gonna be left running in circles shooting of aoes. The only way this resembles EQ is in name and the name of places.

More useless babbling based on zero evidence.  I could completely understand if you got to play a beta, a few weeks before official launch and you saw this first hand, but you haven't even seen game play yet.  So you're just rambling about nonsense you know nothing about.

The art style is terrible and is a huge off put for anybody even console players that want to get immersed in a game for any length of time.

Subjective.  I personally like the art style.  I like that characters have a huge range of emotion through very complex facial animations with large prominent features that are easy to see.  If I could flip a switch and put Black Desert's or ESO's art style into EQN, or keep it the same... I would keep it as it is.  I like that EQN's characters don't look like bland lifeless dolls, like they do in BD and ESO for example.  But this is opinion of course.

 

 

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  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19487

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

8/25/14 3:48:00 PM#31

Originally posted by Aelious

Kyleran

What features of EQ made it "EQ"? Those of us who played and enjoyed it may have a different answer but when I see comments about how different EQN will be than its predecessors I wonder what aspects are being referred to. Tab target vs reticle combat? Art style? Level of difficulty or need for friends?

You mentioned ESO so you may be referring to the combat style rather than art style. For me personally if EQN has a decent level of difficulty (not faceroll easy) and a solid amount of group content it may be more like EQ than EQ2 IMO and for all intents and purposes be EQ3.

Edit: This question is probably worth its own topic since it is off topic here.


Originally posted by Gallus85

Originally posted by Kyleran
They are less concerned with appealing to the Vet EQ crowd as it is a very small subset of their target audience, the mega millions of game players who've joined the genre since then and who clearly prefer a different playable.

This will be in almost no way EQ3, and far closer to ESO and other more modern, action combat MMOs.

I'm an old school EQ vet. I followed news on the game for months and was there on day 1, March 16th, 1999 at the store to pick up my copy and I played it nearly every day for about 5 years.

I think they are appealing directly to me because to me EQ was about the adventure, growing a character and socializing with people.  

EQN is offering horizontal progression and giving a true free-roaming adventure experience.  

Emergent AI, voxels and proceedurly generated content is going to make the free-roaming world fresh and interesting to explore for years on end and won't relegate me to a few "high level zones".

High levels of character customization (their horizontal gear system, multiclassing, etc).

Getting back to the Tank/Healer/CC trilogy.

Massive world changing events with rallying calls.

etc etc.

I'm an EQ vet and I feel they are aiming right at me without resorting to archaic and dated mechanics and systems.  So don't make such blanket statements please.  It's ok if you don't think the game will appeal to you, but don't act as if they're alienating "EQ vets". You either like what they're offering or you don't.  It has little or nothing to do with being an EQ vet or not.

My statement was based on the premise that a "true" EQ vet and fan would expect in fact that some of those mechanics you refer to as archaic and dated would expect them to actually be included in the new game, so it likely does not apply in your situation.

What kinds of features?  This list will do for a start, but I'll bet people could come up with a 2nd ten.

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/9/feature/8123

My point was, if players are expecting to see many of the "old school" designs resurrected, I don't think it is going to happen. They will follow the overly simplified and more shallow game mechanics of most modern theme park MMOs (see, I can insult design mechanics too). This means they aren't really much interested in that group of gamers, they're after bigger fish to fry.

For the record, I never played EQ1, but DAOC and some other games had many of these same mechanics, and in fact when reading through this article recently, I found myself wanting to play EQ1 just to experience them again.

Naw, my DAOC freeshard will likely relaunch at some point, will wait until then to get my old school fix. (2003 ruleset...whoo hoo)

 

 

 

 

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
"People can do with their money what they want. But... that doesn't make it smart" - COORS
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  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1443

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

8/25/14 6:56:48 PM#32



Originally posted by keenber
From what I understand there will be nothing but aoe and GW2 tactics of gang banging the mobs . Cc will be nothing like EQ it will just be a wall or root type thing. Pulling will be none unless mobs are sociable and not tethered to each other. When any class can heal and tank then there will be no healer/tank tactics. Without tab targeting this is just gonna be a gank fest and with the lack of options when fighting everybody is gonna be left running in circles shooting of aoes. The only way this resembles EQ is in name and the name of places.

The art style is terrible and is a huge off put for anybody even console players that want to get immersed in a game for any length of time.

This can off course all change by the time it is released but I don't believe with the voxel graphics and NPC ai they had any choice but choose the low graphic color pallet.


Best post in this thread. DMKano's post is excellent as well.


Originally posted by DamonVile

Originally posted by DMKano
Call these systems archaic - they are still revolutionary. EQ1s world was harsh and unforgiving, which made it rewarding and fun as well.

For a very small group of people.

Ya just a few million. Mere pittance.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  User Deleted
8/25/14 6:59:22 PM#33
I'm not sure they were wanting to bring vets into the new game as much as they say. Reason being that the new game is so different. Why would someone who has a taste for the original game choose to change their tastes completely for a totally different game in EQN. I don't think SOE expects to bring them and are counting on enough new business to make it profitable - more profitable than making a game that only catered to people they already had paying them money.
  amx23

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/14
Posts: 107

8/25/14 7:42:09 PM#34
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by keenber
From what I understand there will be nothing but aoe and GW2 tactics of gang banging the mobs . Cc will be nothing like EQ it will just be a wall or root type thing. Pulling will be none unless mobs are sociable and not tethered to each other. When any class can heal and tank then there will be no healer/tank tactics. Without tab targeting this is just gonna be a gank fest and with the lack of options when fighting everybody is gonna be left running in circles shooting of aoes. The only way this resembles EQ is in name and the name of places.

 

The art style is terrible and is a huge off put for anybody even console players that want to get immersed in a game for any length of time.

This can off course all change by the time it is released but I don't believe with the voxel graphics and NPC ai they had any choice but choose the low graphic color pallet.


 

 

Best post in this thread. DMKano's post is excellent as well.

Yeah he sure knows more than any of us....What a joke

 


Originally posted by DamonVile

Originally posted by DMKano
Call these systems archaic - they are still revolutionary. EQ1s world was harsh and unforgiving, which made it rewarding and fun as well.

For a very small group of people.

 

Ya just a few million. Mere pittance.

Will this stand the test of time where people will go back to this and refer to it for reference?? How exactly is that a good post. It seems like he missed a WHOLE video on stuff explaining the mechanics and the possiblities and he is giving his totally biased opinion while posing as an "observer" to discredit this game. But its totally futile. Nothing will stop this game.

  amx23

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/14
Posts: 107

8/25/14 7:51:17 PM#35
Any fool can pull out critiques out of his ass but it takes someone to see the value of what is being brought and discover what it means for us all...
  tort0429

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/13/09
Posts: 294

 
OP  8/25/14 8:53:24 PM#36
Originally posted by tawess
Originally posted by tort0429
Originally posted by tawess

Or they just keep it as it is and see a massive bunch of those vets who said "will not play" come slinking with the tail between their legs and a "it was not as bad" excuse.

 

But as for your idea. It is ofc doable, it would perhaps tax the network part of things more then any GFX part as it would be a double set of "head geometry data" being sent back and forth. The reason i say it is doable is because this is exactly how WoW solves their new/old model issue.

 

Then again i feel your entire argument/idea is invalid due to your very narrow view on art and style.

 

Young adult my posterior... Mature my posterior... Had you gone the stylized/"realistic" route ... we might have had something to talk about but honestly i do not feel it is worth doing that with you... Seeing how most concepts i would present woudl fly far over your head.

 

 

But yes.. your idea is doable, they most likley choose not to do it in order to save money and bandwith.

I appreciate your reply and honesty, however, this suggestion was not based on my 'narrow view' of art and style but rather based on the posts I read on this forum.  

As far as my view, I have two children, watch cartoons with them constantly and love them, especially good quality cartoons. I have a huge collection of comics, because my 'narrow view' of art and style allows me to appreciate good comic art.  I play all games that are fun, art style is not a show stopper for me so therefore the way eqn is now will not stop me from trying it.

As far as fly far over my head, you are probably right, as I stated in my post, not an expert in game design, etc... You are obviously passionate and maybe knowledgeable about style and art, so I appreciate your reply.  So having said that, my wording of the two types of games may not be accurate so I'm curious, what would you call two different versions of a game based on different art/style/realistic design?

 

Sorry i appologise for my overly hostile tone. I was tired and in a bad mood. No excuse really but i´l give it any way. It is just that the lable of anything that has that.. shall we call it disney/dreamworks style... As young adult just rubs me the very wrong way. Content is always more important they style, and while exaggerated design is often linked to childrens media to say that something is targeting a specific demographic based only on the visual style is... Well... bad. Take wildstar for an example... In te first hour of gameplay you could have engaged in torture or having to watch a med-evac full of people, one beinga  pregnant woman.. being blown out of the sky.. That is not exactly kids stuff now is it...

 

By the same token when i was young i could rent a fairly uncut version of Silver Fang (Ginga Nagareboshi Gin).. A series with enough blood and visual death to give a live action movie slapped with a adult rating. But since it was animated it had to be kids stuff...

 

So to explain why i think that your idea of a YA/Mature mark is bad.. It calls in to effect having to re-write story and dialogue because those labels carry with them pre-baked ideas of what to expect.

 

As to what i would call them... How about simply stylized and realistic if you want two different designs. Now ofc making a double set of EVERY single texture and model in the game is... well... a insane amount of work... But it is in theory doable, as i said.

Thanks for the apology and we all have good and bad days.   You make some very interesting and good points, as well as many others who have replied to my post.

  Bannuk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/11/06
Posts: 224

8/25/14 9:59:01 PM#37
Originally posted by DMKano

 

 

To expand on features that EQ1 has that have been abandoned by most new MMOs:

1. No mob leashing - for those unfamiliar with the term, it means once you aggroed something it would NOT give up chase until you died, you zoned or killed whatever was after you. This mechanic alone led to lots of emergent gameplay - such as kiting, fear kiting, quadding, swarming, training(as in train of mobs on another player) pet kiting, etc....

EQN will be seamless world - meaning mobs will leash, so you can just keep running past them and they will leash back to their spawn - just mount up and run past stuff - easy mode, yes so many new games are like this, I am not a fan. 

2. Split pulling/aggro control - in EQ1 almost all NPCs had a faction, and NPCs friendly to each other would jump to each others aid in combat. Example you are fighting an Orc, another Orc wandering by would normally just walk by but will jump to aid of his Orc friend and attack you.

Classes were given tools to wipe aggro so there was an entire emergent gameplay when it came to splitting mobs that would normally come in a large group - feign death, pet pulling, mez, stun, fear etc... lots of abilities were used in combinations to split seemingly impossible groups of mobs.

EQN - we don't know yet, I doubt that we will see such deep aggro management system

3. super slow combat - a combat round in EQ1 was 6 seconds, yeah unheard of in today's MMORPGs. You would miss more often than hit as mobs would block, dodge, parry, spells could fizzle, AE spells would also hit YOU, so you could kill yourself in combat with your own AE spells. The slow pacing of combat gave players more time for strategic play as well as being able to type and chat.

EQN combat again - seems very fast - as something you'd see in a console fighting game (which I am a fan of) but it kills more strategic combat as action happens too fast. Its closer to a single player action game, also voice chat will be mandatory as you can't type and do action combat at the same time

4. Death sting - you die, all of your gear is on your corpse - you are naked hungry and thirsty and need to retrieve your corpse which could be an hour away (as boats were SLOW). Maybe you could find a friendly wizard or druid to give you a teleport to a nearby zone, and maybe a friendly necro would summon your corpse once you got to the zone? Player interdependence - EQ1 had it in spades.

I seriously doubt that EQN will have anything remotely close

Call these systems archaic - they are still revolutionary. EQ1s world was harsh and unforgiving, which made it rewarding and fun as well.

 

 

 

 

I miss all of those.  Splitting mobs was fun as an Iksar Monk using Feign Death and don't get me started with training groups trying to work into my groups camp.  Training people could be so much fun when they deserved it.  You feared death, especially just after you dinged a level and please bring back AEs.  Stop the insanity of area abilities only affecting the bad guys and not yourself or your friends.  You had to think when playing, and communicate with those in your group!  Communication?  How archaic!  Actually talking to other players in an MMO and while fighting no less.  /faint 

Not anymore.  Everything you mentioned is archaic.  Being forced to learning a games mechanics and how and when to use skills is archaic, and no, the BS we do now of learning the best rotation of skills is not learning how and when to use them.  A brain dead monkey can be trained to mash buttons in order.  Don't want to fight, no worries just run.  The mobs are all out of shape and will get tired and give up.  It doesn't matter that games can be played completely solo and there is no need to ever say a word in chat even while in a group.  No, that takes too much time and effort, it is archaic.  Just get me to treasure chest as fast and effortlessly as possible.  Instant gratification is the progressive way to play these days.  Don't make the players think, learn, communicate, fear, or earn a thing, those are archaic concepts.

Yeah, why would anyone want any of the archaic features that were in EQ when we can play all these modern games that are extremely easy, and I can play with hundreds of thousands of my dearest friends but never say a word to any of them?

Today's gamers have no idea how fun these archaic features were.  Was EQ perfect?  No way.  But it was unforgiving and you paid for making mistakes, but the feeling of accomplishment you got when you finally overcame and achieved something has never been duplicated in any other game for me like it was in EQ.  I guess that sense of accomplishment is an archaic concept too.

 

 

  TribeofOne

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/10/05
Posts: 979

8/25/14 10:14:37 PM#38
i remember when EQ2 was about to release so many EQ vets complained that they wouldnt play EQ2 unless their EQ characters carried over.. such silliness.  If the character models are going to be THAT big of a deal to you maybe you should just skip EQN but i doubt you will, so why stir up and prolong the silly issues.
  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

8/26/14 1:40:19 AM#39
Originally posted by Kyleran

My statement was based on the premise that a "true" EQ vet and fan would expect in fact that some of those mechanics you refer to as archaic and dated would expect them to actually be included in the new game, so it likely does not apply in your situation.

The "No true Scotsman" logical fallacy always makes me laugh when people use it.

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  AmbrosiaAmor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/24/10
Posts: 905

8/26/14 7:47:30 AM#40
Originally posted by DMKano

To expand on features that EQ1 has that have been abandoned by most new MMOs:

1. No mob leashing - for those unfamiliar with the term, it means once you aggroed something it would NOT give up chase until you died, you zoned or killed whatever was after you. This mechanic alone led to lots of emergent gameplay - such as kiting, fear kiting, quadding, swarming, training(as in train of mobs on another player) pet kiting, etc....

EQN will be seamless world - meaning mobs will leash, so you can just keep running past them and they will leash back to their spawn - just mount up and run past stuff - easy mode, yes so many new games are like this, I am not a fan. 


4. Death sting - you die, all of your gear is on your corpse - you are naked hungry and thirsty and need to retrieve your corpse which could be an hour away (as boats were SLOW). Maybe you could find a friendly wizard or druid to give you a teleport to a nearby zone, and maybe a friendly necro would summon your corpse once you got to the zone? Player interdependence - EQ1 had it in spades.

I seriously doubt that EQN will have anything remotely close

Call these systems archaic - they are still revolutionary. EQ1s world was harsh and unforgiving, which made it rewarding and fun as well.

 

Yeah I miss these. FFXI did it right. Danger at every turn! And at night you had to worry about low health aggro. Shame that we will probably not see these ever again (well maybe from an indie title) but certainly not from a AAA title.

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