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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » Content of EQ Next Panel - highlights (Storybricks)

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52 posts found
  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

8/19/14 1:58:34 AM#21

I think a lot of it comes from people's past experiences and they can't understand how something so complex and advanced can actually run well enough to support the kind of ideas they are pushing.

Aion for example, while looked good for it's time no doubt but didn't have things like voxels or world destruction, emphasized huge scale pvp fort raids that would draw in 100's of players, yet once you started getting more than 30 or 40 players in the area, performance became really bad, and it wasn't even anywhere near as complex as what EQN is trying.  

People remember playing EQ and doing a raid and having to turn down all the particle effects and eye candy as much as possible, looking down at the floor just to maintain decent frame rates lol.

Then they hear about a game like EQN with fully destructible environments, highly animated characters with advanced facial animations, complex AI systems and it just seems too good to be true based on passed experiences.

But that said, I don't think it's going to be nearly as bad as people are thinking it's going to be.  I certainly think that this is going to push systems.  This isn't going to be your typical blizzard game where it'll run on low end systems just fine.  But it's not going to be unreasonable.

Right now in Landmark, Max settings and just turning off shadows gets me a solid 60fps constant even as I roam around and I'm near impressive structures players have built.  I have a pretty awesome PC (3570k OCed to 4.7ghz, 8gb of ram and 2x 780 GTXs in SLI), but also take in the consideration that EQN will launch in a year from now, and will have been vastly optimized since then with a lot better driver support when it does.  

 

I can easily see a midgrade system of 2015 (something like a i5 CPU non-OCed, 8gb of ram, single 770 GTX / 860 GTX) playing the game capped out at 1080p with little to no issues). 

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  Nadia

Tipster

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11811

8/19/14 2:49:21 AM#22
Originally posted by azzamasin

OMFG the death of quest hubs and exploration centric content can't get here soon enough!!!!

agree

  Allein

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/13
Posts: 1254

8/19/14 2:52:32 AM#23
Originally posted by Gallus85

I think a lot of it comes from people's past experiences and they can't understand how something so complex and advanced can actually run well enough to support the kind of ideas they are pushing.

Aion for example, while looked good for it's time no doubt but didn't have things like voxels or world destruction, emphasized huge scale pvp fort raids that would draw in 100's of players, yet once you started getting more than 30 or 40 players in the area, performance became really bad, and it wasn't even anywhere near as complex as what EQN is trying.  

I can easily see a midgrade system of 2015 (something like a i5 CPU non-OCed, 8gb of ram, single 770 GTX / 860 GTX) playing the game capped out at 1080p with little to no issues). 

For me, if they say they are able to do X and are able to, regardless if I need a 5 year old PC or the best of the best, they still did what they said. Going the high end route is a very poor design choice to me as it cuts out the majority of possible customers (Looking at EQ2/VG), but they still achieved making all the systems work together and for the lucky few that can play, GG.

Now if they say all of this is possible on a 5 year old PC in a "playable" state, yet I have to turn everything off, stare at the ground (lol I totally forgot about that), and still stutter step, they didn't live up to their promise.

I actually believe they said during the reveal or soon after that they plan to have scaled settings to make it as accessible as possible, but I might be mistaken and that could mean whatever anyway.

Even with optimization, I'm assuming EQN will need at least a few things (8gb ram, i3+, video card made within last couple years, etc) and that some of those old no longer white office PCs that people can play WoW on, might not cut it. Which might cut down on their target audience, but hopefully not too much. By the time EQN rolls out, probably looking at a $500 or less box if people haven't upgraded in the last few years already. If people want PhysX (already shown I think), then maybe they will need to start thinking about upgrading to a bit more beefier machine. As it will be F2P, should have a few extra dollars to spend even.

Anyway, as I ramble on, still sounds like people simply can't believe it is even technically possible to do what SOE is saying, as in AI can't do what Storybricks is saying and Voxels can't work when you have 50 people on screen going crazy, even though Rally Calls are a promised common occurrence. Regardless of PC specs. Glad I'm not one of them. No fun at all.

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

8/19/14 3:31:38 AM#24
Originally posted by Allein
Originally posted by Gallus85

I think a lot of it comes from people's past experiences and they can't understand how something so complex and advanced can actually run well enough to support the kind of ideas they are pushing.

Aion for example, while looked good for it's time no doubt but didn't have things like voxels or world destruction, emphasized huge scale pvp fort raids that would draw in 100's of players, yet once you started getting more than 30 or 40 players in the area, performance became really bad, and it wasn't even anywhere near as complex as what EQN is trying.  

I can easily see a midgrade system of 2015 (something like a i5 CPU non-OCed, 8gb of ram, single 770 GTX / 860 GTX) playing the game capped out at 1080p with little to no issues). 

For me, if they say they are able to do X and are able to, regardless if I need a 5 year old PC or the best of the best, they still did what they said. Going the high end route is a very poor design choice to me as it cuts out the majority of possible customers (Looking at EQ2/VG), but they still achieved making all the systems work together and for the lucky few that can play, GG.

Obviously the higher the system specs, the less people can play, but I'm sure they've aimed for a reasonable middle ground.  EQN will be playable by reasonable midgrade systems for sure.  VG btw was a different story.  It wasn't that it was so insane that it had poor performance.  It was literally broken.  My $3500 custom built and OCed built just months before VG went live was crushed to a stuttering mess and crashing mess by VG.  There's a difference between aiming high and being broken. 

Now if they say all of this is possible on a 5 year old PC in a "playable" state, yet I have to turn everything off, stare at the ground (lol I totally forgot about that), and still stutter step, they didn't live up to their promise.

I actually believe they said during the reveal or soon after that they plan to have scaled settings to make it as accessible as possible, but I might be mistaken and that could mean whatever anyway.

Even with optimization, I'm assuming EQN will need at least a few things (8gb ram, i3+, video card made within last couple years, etc)

Quick note, 4GB of ram is probably enough.  Most games, even insanely intensive ones like Crysis 3 only seen FPS increases up until 4GB,  6GB shows a less than 1% performance increase and 8GB does nothing.  For gaming, you only really need 6-8gb at most.  Not that it really matters.  Ram is dirt cheap.  It doesn't cost that much more to get 8gb vs 4gb.  or to go from 8 to 16.

and that some of those old no longer white office PCs that people can play WoW on, might not cut it. Which might cut down on their target audience, but hopefully not too much. By the time EQN rolls out, probably looking at a $500 or less box if people haven't upgraded in the last few years already. If people want PhysX (already shown I think), then maybe they will need to start thinking about upgrading to a bit more beefier machine. As it will be F2P, should have a few extra dollars to spend even.

It's clear that creating a game on the same engine as PS2, with all the innovations and features that EQN is pushing for, it's clear they're not aiming for the e-machine-WoW gamer crowd.  They're targeting core gamers with at least a decent midgrade setup.  Again, yes, it cuts back on their possible audience, but they are trying to innovate.  I think we can rest assured that they won't make it unreasonable and they'll make sure that their sieges and large events run well on the appropriate level of hardware.

Anyway, as I ramble on, still sounds like people simply can't believe it is even technically possible to do what SOE is saying, as in AI can't do what Storybricks is saying and Voxels can't work when you have 50 people on screen going crazy, even though Rally Calls are a promised common occurrence. Regardless of PC specs. Glad I'm not one of them. No fun at all.

While I think people are justified in their disbelief in them pulling it off, I personally don't see any reason to think that they won't succeed.  They have the talent.  They have a solid engine (PS2 runs great with a lot of action on screen), and they got the financial backing to make it happen.

 

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  observer

Elite Member

Joined: 2/17/05
Posts: 2458

First came pride, then envy.

8/19/14 4:06:28 AM#25
Originally posted by azzamasin

All hail our new EQ next overlords. Queue the *Halleluiah* choir!

 


2. No traditional quest hubs; you have to find the content (guided by journal "Rohsong", discovered via exploring, etc)

I don't care about anything other then this, no matter how bad the game looks, costs, or plays I will be all over this like a fat kid on a twinkie! OMFG the death of quest hubs and exploration centric content can't get here soon enough!!!!

I'm with you on this.  When i tried ArchAge, i just felt like i stepped back in time 5 years ago.  The quest hubs really need to die off already.  The only problem i have with EQN is that SOE might not pull it off too good.  I'm really not liking Landmark's direction at all, and EQN is going to be basically using Landmark's tech and mechanics.  Storybricks does sound interesting though, and i'll give it a chance in Landmark whenever it comes out.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3649

8/19/14 4:19:01 AM#26
Originally posted by Gallus85

I think a lot of it comes from people's past experiences and they can't understand how something so complex and advanced can actually run well enough to support the kind of ideas they are pushing.

Aion for example, while looked good for it's time no doubt but didn't have things like voxels or world destruction, emphasized huge scale pvp fort raids that would draw in 100's of players, yet once you started getting more than 30 or 40 players in the area, performance became really bad, and it wasn't even anywhere near as complex as what EQN is trying.  

People remember playing EQ and doing a raid and having to turn down all the particle effects and eye candy as much as possible, looking down at the floor just to maintain decent frame rates lol. You do know that wasn't a software issue but a hardware one..  The program was more complex then the graphic card could handle.. And yes, I had to look at the floor many times, but then I was just a healer, and didn't need to look at anything but health bars..  Anyways, you don't think EQN is going to have similar issue with all their fireworks combat when you get large groups together.. WoW still suffers from that.. They all do..

Then they hear about a game like EQN with fully destructible environments, highly animated characters with advanced facial animations, complex AI systems and it just seems too good to be true based on passed experiences.

But that said, I don't think it's going to be nearly as bad as people are thinking it's going to be.  I certainly think that this is going to push systems.  This isn't going to be your typical blizzard game where it'll run on low end systems just fine.  But it's not going to be unreasonable. That would be your guess.. IMO, anyone that doesn't have a new gaming computer with uber graphic card is going to have issue running the game "as intended" when in large groups.. However, I'm confident enough to hope they will have video sliders to nerf their own masterpiece..

Right now in Landmark, Max settings and just turning off shadows gets me a solid 60fps constant even as I roam around and I'm near impressive structures players have built.  I have a pretty awesome PC (3570k OCed to 4.7ghz, 8gb of ram and 2x 780 GTXs in SLI), but also take in the consideration that EQN will launch in a year from now, and will have been vastly optimized since then with a lot better driver support when it does.   That isn't the difficulty of moving around and lag.. The trick will come when you have spell effects and DOZENS of player movement in a localized area such as PvP or Raiding.. I do wonder and question the quality of mass battles when you have that much graphic drawing going on..  Plus, consider this, especially when talking about voxels..  You come across a boss fight that requires 20, or 30+, imagine if most want to use their voxel destroying abilities in combat at what happens to the environment.. Boss fights could get stupid ugly.. OR will players be required to "NOT LOAD" said AOE world destroy skills on their hotbars because of that issue?

 

I can easily see a midgrade system of 2015 (something like a i5 CPU non-OCed, 8gb of ram, single 770 GTX / 860 GTX) playing the game capped out at 1080p with little to no issues). 

I"m sure a very small percentage of the playerbase will be able to run high details..

  Shaigh

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/07/13
Posts: 370

8/19/14 7:41:55 AM#27

Having everything moving around and encouraging exploration is a great thing, but my worry isn't that they can make things change, but instead I wonder what kind of content that you will have moving around. MMO's have quite a lot of issues with static quests with static monsters that ends up broken, how simple do the quests have to be so that they don't break while using storybricks?

 

Storybricks sounds amazing on paper, but I have serious doubts about how it turns out and the actual content that the game will have.

  azarhal

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/06/09
Posts: 602

8/19/14 7:59:41 AM#28
Originally posted by Gallus85

 

Right now in Landmark, Max settings and just turning off shadows gets me a solid 60fps constant even as I roam around and I'm near impressive structures players have built.  I have a pretty awesome PC (3570k OCed to 4.7ghz, 8gb of ram and 2x 780 GTXs in SLI), but also take in the consideration that EQN will launch in a year from now, and will have been vastly optimized since then with a lot better driver support when it does.  

I can easily see a midgrade system of 2015 (something like a i5 CPU non-OCed, 8gb of ram, single 770 GTX / 860 GTX) playing the game capped out at 1080p with little to no issues). 

I run Landmark between 50-60 FPS most of the time with the highest setting possible except shadow (high only, has opposed to Ultra) at 1650x1050 on a single 770 GTX. If I set shadows at Ultra I drop by 10FPS.

The real problem is the dips in FPS, but those are either caused by everything running in a single thread (shadows/LOD) or downloading stuff not fast enough. They are changing both soon (they showed their new algo in the Tech evolution panel) and also bringing multi-threading optimizations at some point. 

  Avarix

Novice Member

Joined: 1/22/12
Posts: 307

8/19/14 8:16:44 AM#29
Deja Vu. I remember a few of these same promises made by ArenaNet. Dynamic world changes, no quest hubs, what you do matters etc etc Sadly, I guess I am a bit more cynical than you guys about this. Waiting to see how this plays out but so far it's all just words. Storybricks seems to be picking up quite a bit of hype here, and that never seems to end well.
  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 4044

 
OP  8/19/14 8:36:38 AM#30
Originally posted by Avarix
Deja Vu. I remember a few of these same promises made by ArenaNet. Dynamic world changes, no quest hubs, what you do matters etc etc Sadly, I guess I am a bit more cynical than you guys about this. Waiting to see how this plays out but so far it's all just words. Storybricks seems to be picking up quite a bit of hype here, and that never seems to end well.

I played GW2 to death and they did get rid of quest hubs. The chain of events that happened after most people ran away because step 1 of a public event was over made me laugh. Thats one area GW2 shined. Most people would run to the few highlighted areas on the map and miss 75% of the content lol. 

  Rusque

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 1898

8/19/14 8:40:27 AM#31

Oh yay, a feature list! I haven't seen one of those before. Looking all pretty, boasting of amazing things yet to pass.

 

I want to see it in action before I believe a single word.

  Archlyte

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/21/14
Posts: 442

^Avatar Stylized for Longevity, Frame Rate, & Maturity

8/19/14 1:44:30 PM#32
Yeah, if this works half as well as they intend it will be a major step. I predict it will be massively buggy and the mobs will end up doing dumb stuff that looks like group windsprints or player goaded lemming behavior. It will be fun to watch but not in the way they intend. Also I think this means the release date is even further off, the testing alone will take forever.
  amx23

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/14
Posts: 107

8/19/14 3:11:06 PM#33
It looked pretty smart to me i mean the dark elves took over, and in another simulation they had a good fight with the shadow elementals. 
  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 4044

 
OP  8/20/14 12:48:17 PM#34
Originally posted by amx23
It looked pretty smart to me i mean the dark elves took over, and in another simulation they had a good fight with the shadow elementals. 

Where you there? Could you give us a little more detail on how the demo went?

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

8/20/14 4:14:36 PM#35
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Gallus85

I think a lot of it comes from people's past experiences and they can't understand how something so complex and advanced can actually run well enough to support the kind of ideas they are pushing.

Aion for example, while looked good for it's time no doubt but didn't have things like voxels or world destruction, emphasized huge scale pvp fort raids that would draw in 100's of players, yet once you started getting more than 30 or 40 players in the area, performance became really bad, and it wasn't even anywhere near as complex as what EQN is trying.  

People remember playing EQ and doing a raid and having to turn down all the particle effects and eye candy as much as possible, looking down at the floor just to maintain decent frame rates lol. You do know that wasn't a software issue but a hardware one..  The program was more complex then the graphic card could handle.. 

Incorrect, it was poor programming.  When a $3000 - $4000 water cooled enthusiast system OCed to hell stutters and skips along like an emachine even when you turn the video settings down to low, it's not a "hardware issue".  The technical issues of vanguard are were/are well known.

Then they hear about a game like EQN with fully destructible environments, highly animated characters with advanced facial animations, complex AI systems and it just seems too good to be true based on passed experiences.

But that said, I don't think it's going to be nearly as bad as people are thinking it's going to be.  I certainly think that this is going to push systems.  This isn't going to be your typical blizzard game where it'll run on low end systems just fine.  But it's not going to be unreasonable. That would be your guess.. IMO, anyone that doesn't have a new gaming computer with uber graphic card is going to have issue running the game "as intended" when in large groups.. However, I'm confident enough to hope they will have video sliders to nerf their own masterpiece..

The point was that it will be within reason.  A midgrade gaming system build within a year or 2 of release won't have much, if any, of an issue even in most situations.

Right now in Landmark, Max settings and just turning off shadows gets me a solid 60fps constant even as I roam around and I'm near impressive structures players have built.  I have a pretty awesome PC (3570k OCed to 4.7ghz, 8gb of ram and 2x 780 GTXs in SLI), but also take in the consideration that EQN will launch in a year from now, and will have been vastly optimized since then with a lot better driver support when it does.   That isn't the difficulty of moving around and lag.. The trick will come when you have spell effects and DOZENS of player movement in a localized area such as PvP or Raiding.. I do wonder and question the quality of mass battles when you have that much graphic drawing going on..  Plus, consider this, especially when talking about voxels..  You come across a boss fight that requires 20, or 30+, imagine if most want to use their voxel destroying abilities in combat at what happens to the environment.. Boss fights could get stupid ugly.. OR will players be required to "NOT LOAD" said AOE world destroy skills on their hotbars because of that issue?

 There are other work arounds, aside from the game being greatly optimized upon release from where it is now. For example, they can increase/decrease the "strength" of the terrain based on player's spell effects.  They could also make it so that the ground under a raid-level mob is hardened or invul on the fly.  I'm sure it won't be a low-system spec game by any means, but the point is that it will be "reasonable".  That's just the nature of cutting edge PC games.  You want to play Crysis 3 on max settings?  Then pony up the bucks for an upgrade.  We can't innovate if we have to constantly worry about upsetting some guy running a 4 year old emachine.

I can easily see a midgrade system of 2015 (something like a i5 CPU non-OCed, 8gb of ram, single 770 GTX / 860 GTX) playing the game capped out at 1080p with little to no issues). 

I"m sure a very small percentage of the playerbase will be able to run high details..

 

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  amx23

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/14
Posts: 107

8/20/14 6:47:38 PM#36
Forge-Light has been upgraded so that each map section can be as big as 128km by 128km instead of 8km by 8km seen in landmark islands. That means H1Z1 can be as big as the continental US as they wanted it but they will make it roughly the size of Vermont. what doesn that mean for EQN? Earlier this year they said that the new norrath would be bigger than all the zones from EQ1 and EQ2 combined. Well, they can make it Massive. The map in the video is broken down into 30x60 sections. IF each section is 128km by 128km. THat means as a whole the world can be as big as 14,500,000 km squared. 1.5 times the size of the United States!
  Archlyte

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/21/14
Posts: 442

^Avatar Stylized for Longevity, Frame Rate, & Maturity

8/20/14 7:13:19 PM#37

They will need all of that area. You guys should look forward to the EQNext chapter of Goonswarm or some other group that will dedicate their lives to conducting Trains to decimate areas, or just run hoardes of them off cliffs to empty areas of content. The giant phallus problem will look like a minor annoyance in comparison. There will also be Karma Herders who will grind up Karma for the purpose of starting NPC fights, but mainly only when it will inconvenience or grief fellow players. This system sounds fantastic on paper, but I am sure this will guarantee a new sport for the worst type of player.

 

You can also say hello to open world PvP (non-consensual) as the NPCs will now be used as proxy attacks by Karma Herders who will wait till you attack an orc and bring a hoard over the hill.

 

  Mendel

Elite Member

Joined: 7/22/11
Posts: 664

8/20/14 8:47:30 PM#38
Originally posted by SlyLoK
<snip>
  Internet matters with this game because they stream everything which is also another bad idea.

As for the above post about voxels allowing more ... More what? You cant destroy terrain to trap creatures in for easy kills because that will be viewed as an exploit no doubt. Mining? I dont think I want to see thousands of holes in the ground ruining the landscape because people are mining. I would be fine with a Ultima Online setup when it came to mining. 

What else? Building homes? Sounds great but voxel homes look terrible with all the smudges and bleed effect that happens. When you are at the perfect distance they look ok but close up.. Yikes.

Magic combos destroying landscape during battles? Again that goes back to combat exploits and I am sure people would end up not liking it in PvP either after being trapped for the 1000th time by the same combo that everyone would be using.

Castle Seiges? That can already be done with basic physics. 

I dont think voxels bring anything major to the MMORPG genre and from what I can tell will end up being more of a headache for the devs than anything.

I like these opinions on Voxels.  They definitely cause performance issues in their current state.  I have doubts if these performance hits can be optimized away without a new generation of voxel-specific graphics processors.  The transient nature of 'destructible environments' tends to generate a lot of bandwidth traffic, as these changes to the environment must be propagated from the server to each individual client (player) in the area.   I don't know how SOE will approach this problem, but I suspect that EQN is going to have robust networking requirements, maybe even to the degree that dial-up, DLS and some lower broadband services will be unusable for this game.  Is everyone ready (willing and able) to pay for an upgraded service from your ISP?

I've stated a couple of times that the ability to destroy anything doesn't add anything for me.  Like this poster says, there is too much inherent potential for exploits.  SOE will have to negate the exploit potential for these features to be even remotely attractive to me.  We've already heard that there will be limits on how close together destruction events can occur to alter the landscape.  Digging and vertical 'exploration' could be done with a traditional pixel-based environment, by defining limited regions where the terrain could be altered, and providing alternate terrains for various levels of destruction.   Conceivably, voxels will allow terrain alteration at any location, but it appears that there are already plans to restrict the 'any location' aspects of destructible terrain.

So, the use of voxels in this project could be building a complicated way of doing something, which will ultimately create a sizable workload for the development staff.  We'll see.

Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3649

8/21/14 4:24:11 AM#39
Originally posted by Mendel
Originally posted by SlyLoK
  Internet matters with this game because they stream everything which is also another bad idea.

As for the above post about voxels allowing more ... More what? You cant destroy terrain to trap creatures in for easy kills because that will be viewed as an exploit no doubt. Mining? I dont think I want to see thousands of holes in the ground ruining the landscape because people are mining. I would be fine with a Ultima Online setup when it came to mining. 

What else? Building homes? Sounds great but voxel homes look terrible with all the smudges and bleed effect that happens. When you are at the perfect distance they look ok but close up.. Yikes.

Magic combos destroying landscape during battles? Again that goes back to combat exploits and I am sure people would end up not liking it in PvP either after being trapped for the 1000th time by the same combo that everyone would be using.

Castle Seiges? That can already be done with basic physics. 

I dont think voxels bring anything major to the MMORPG genre and from what I can tell will end up being more of a headache for the devs than anything.

I like these opinions on Voxels.  They definitely cause performance issues in their current state.  I have doubts if these performance hits can be optimized away without a new generation of voxel-specific graphics processors.  The transient nature of 'destructible environments' tends to generate a lot of bandwidth traffic, as these changes to the environment must be propagated from the server to each individual client (player) in the area.   I don't know how SOE will approach this problem, but I suspect that EQN is going to have robust networking requirements, maybe even to the degree that dial-up, DLS and some lower broadband services will be unusable for this game.  Is everyone ready (willing and able) to pay for an upgraded service from your ISP?

I've stated a couple of times that the ability to destroy anything doesn't add anything for me.  Like this poster says, there is too much inherent potential for exploits.  SOE will have to negate the exploit potential for these features to be even remotely attractive to me.  We've already heard that there will be limits on how close together destruction events can occur to alter the landscape.  Digging and vertical 'exploration' could be done with a traditional pixel-based environment, by defining limited regions where the terrain could be altered, and providing alternate terrains for various levels of destruction.   Conceivably, voxels will allow terrain alteration at any location, but it appears that there are already plans to restrict the 'any location' aspects of destructible terrain.

So, the use of voxels in this project could be building a complicated way of doing something, which will ultimately create a sizable workload for the development staff.  We'll see.

     I agree with both of the above..   The technical issues that can lead to game performance is a big hurdle for SOE to solve..  As it was pointed out, the bandwidth and communication between "MULTIPLE" clients will cause lag for many.  Now add that in that we don't have tab targeting, and have to rely on twitch action combat, many players will be MISSING their targets..  

    Then take a look at non-consensual PvP..  It happen in SWG and WoW, that I know of first hand..  Players will always find ways to grieve others using game exploits..  What is to keep one player from digging a hole under another causing them to fall into a undesirable location?  Or just to be a pain in the ass..  I"m trying to help Mr Farmer against Orcs, and another player that is trying to help Orcs keeps using voxel destruction to interfere with my game play.. 

     I put faith in this.. "What can go wrong, will go wrong"..  You can bet on it..

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

8/21/14 5:04:59 AM#40
Originally posted by Mendel

I like these opinions on Voxels.

Uneducated opinions by people who have never worked on a voxel-based game.  

They definitely cause performance issues in their current state.

Alpha.  It will be optimized for launch, but optimized is not a synonym for "It'll run 120fps constant on a $300 emachine".  It will require slightly higher system specs than what you're used to with WoW, but this isn't an inherent problem in itself.  They will set the bar where they want to as far as what system minimums are required to play the game and you can either choose to hit that mark or deal with it / play another game. 

I have doubts if these performance hits can be optimized away without a new generation of voxel-specific graphics processors. 

Lol.  No, Nvidia and AMD don't need to make "voxel GPUs" (whatever that means) lol.  In unoptimized landmark alpha, with max settings at 2560 x 1440, and shadows turned off I get constant 60fps right now, today.  The system requirements after optimization and driver updates will be many times improved over this to top it off.

The transient nature of 'destructible environments' tends to generate a lot of bandwidth traffic, as these changes to the environment must be propagated from the server to each individual client (player) in the area.   I don't know how SOE will approach this problem, but I suspect that EQN is going to have robust networking requirements, maybe even to the degree that dial-up, DLS and some lower broadband services will be unusable for this game.  Is everyone ready (willing and able) to pay for an upgraded service from your ISP?

Game packets for all games, even something like EQN/Landmark are very, very small.  An unused DSL line (not being saturated by other usage) is still way overkill when it comes to gaming.  Anyone with the most very basic cable bandwidth, or a normal DSL line, are going to have no problem playing Landmark, EQN, or any other game for that matter.  You really have no idea just how small game packets are.  Your location in comparison to the server, the amount of hops your packets make to and from the server and your packets having to wait in queue while other usage goes out (delaying your game packets), are far more detrimental to your gaming experience than any foreseeable bandwidth issue would be.

I've stated a couple of times that the ability to destroy anything doesn't add anything for me. 

Actually it does, to include proceedurally generated environments and the ability to have realistic fort sieges just to name a couple things.  The basis of the system allows for drastic environment changes without direct dev intervention along with adding more realism with how you yourself can treat the world.

Like this poster says, there is too much inherent potential for exploits. 

This argument is old, tired and baseless.

SOE will have to negate the exploit potential for these features to be even remotely attractive to me. 

They already can and do.  Don't worry, you're not going to have a guild of idiots mowing freeport to the ground for fun (unless it's a part of a siege event :P )

We've already heard that there will be limits on how close together destruction events can occur to alter the landscape.  Digging and vertical 'exploration' could be done with a traditional pixel-based environment, by defining limited regions where the terrain could be altered, and providing alternate terrains for various levels of destruction.   Conceivably, voxels will allow terrain alteration at any location, but it appears that there are already plans to restrict the 'any location' aspects of destructible terrain.

Then they would be required to "script" destruction events just like other games and this would prevent the freedom and proceedural aspects of the game environment generation they want to have to keep the world fresh.  So your idea doesn't work at all.

So, the use of voxels in this project could be building a complicated way of doing something, which will ultimately create a sizable workload for the development staff.  We'll see.

Your alternative was far more complex and far more limited in what it would bring while not really gaining anything worthwhile.  Leave this stuff to the professionals please.  We don't spend 4 - 8 years in expensive universities learning computer science and spend every day tackling complex software engineering problems, honing our skills for no reason. 

 

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

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