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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » EverQuest Next and the 60% Done Comment

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42 posts found
  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 6405

8/18/14 7:44:17 AM#21
Originally posted by Nevulus

To me 100% is a playable alpha, so maybe 60% seems just about right.

 

Opinions, everyone's got them. But only a few weird ones think it applies to the world.

If 100% complete is playable alpha - then what is beta? 120%?

What about open beta? 130%?

Game launch - 140%?

I am confused

Can a game be more complete than 100%?

 

The man clearly said:

"So we are 60% complete with EverQuest Next."

 

He didn't say 60% complete with EQNext Alpha - he just said EQNext. Period - which would imply the whole game.

And I think that's incorrect.

  Enrif

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/13
Posts: 145

8/18/14 7:48:10 AM#22
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Nevulus

To me 100% is a playable alpha, so maybe 60% seems just about right.

 

Opinions, everyone's got them. But only a few weird ones think it applies to the world.

If 100% complete is playable alpha - then what is beta? 120%?

What about open beta? 130%?

Game launch - 140%?

I am confused

Can a game be more complete than 100%?

 

for an MMO, yes

MMO's are never totaly finished they will add stuff/remove stuff change. example would be WoW with its new expansions its far beyond the 100% it once had 10 years ago

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 6405

8/18/14 7:52:58 AM#23
Originally posted by Enrif
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Nevulus

To me 100% is a playable alpha, so maybe 60% seems just about right.

 

Opinions, everyone's got them. But only a few weird ones think it applies to the world.

If 100% complete is playable alpha - then what is beta? 120%?

What about open beta? 130%?

Game launch - 140%?

I am confused

Can a game be more complete than 100%?

 

for an MMO, yes

MMO's are never totaly finished they will add stuff/remove stuff change. example would be WoW with its new expansions its far beyond the 100% it once had 10 years ago

 

I think saying that a game is beyond 100% complete is silly.

Each patch and added content has its own "completeness cycle" - so once the first expansion is at 100% complete - the game gets updated and has the patch applied.

It never goes above 100% of the BASE game - that would be silly IMO - I've never heard anyone say " well our game is on 10th expansion now - we're at 1000% complete"

Again the core issue is - "60% complete of WHAT exactly" - Alpha? Beta? Final release? Or maybe 60% complete of core game systems?

Without knowing exactly what 100% is - 60% figure is meaningless.

 

 

  gobla

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/30/07
Posts: 1421

C'est la vie.

8/18/14 8:00:53 AM#24
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Xthos
It is more 60% of the systems are in place, I would say.  That also doesn't take into account how much harder or easier the other 40% will be, you could have 80% of something done, and the 20% take as long or longer than the 80%.  So I wouldn't read too much into this.

 

To me the biggest question is what does 100% mean?

To me 100% = game launch

If 100% = game launch, no way in hell that EQNext is 60% there already - that's what I've been saying all along.

It's obvious to me that different folks have different ideas on what 100% stands for an MMORPG

 

Considering that most MMOs take around 5 years or so to make the 60% would imply they've been working on it for 3 years and have 2 more years to go until release.

Which would mean a Summer 2016 release. How is that no way in hell?

I think many here are seriously underestimating just how long these projects take and thus exactly how much work has already been done and, more importantly, just how much work still needs to be done.

We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
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  alyndale

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/04/06
Posts: 830

When you learn that a truth is a lie, anger follows.Grace Slick

8/18/14 8:01:04 AM#25

My topic is not really off topic and yeah it is a General Discussion/debate. And once again why is it so important that we draw lines in the sand over what is deemed to be true or not about a game.

However, it's all good you all are going to make something out of nothing no matter what those of us that look at this entire debate from a different angle.

Alyn

All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon

  vorpal28

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/07/05
Posts: 90

8/18/14 8:13:00 AM#26
Beta for us is a working, optimised build ready for real world testing, and correction of any flaws this reveals
  Xthos

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2651

8/18/14 2:03:24 PM#27
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Nevulus

To me 100% is a playable alpha, so maybe 60% seems just about right.

 

Opinions, everyone's got them. But only a few weird ones think it applies to the world.

If 100% complete is playable alpha - then what is beta? 120%?

What about open beta? 130%?

Game launch - 140%?

I am confused

Can a game be more complete than 100%?

 

The man clearly said:

"So we are 60% complete with EverQuest Next."

 

He didn't say 60% complete with EQNext Alpha - he just said EQNext. Period - which would imply the whole game.

And I think that's incorrect.

 

Well, something could be 100% feature complete, and Alpha/Closed Beta/Open Beta could be used to refine the already included feature.  Obviously this hasn't been the approach with Landmark, and I personally believe Next will not have as many growing pains towards release as Landmark, due to Landmark being the proving ground for a lot of the technologies, but some stuff is going into Next, that will not be in Landmark, due to them being different in the end, so I think Next will still have problems to solve, even once they solve their problems for Landmark.

 

Again, what does 60% mean?  Does it mean feature wise, or work wise?  Land generation may be say 10% of the features or less, but 20-25% of the work, with the tiers and the 'earthquakes' that shift and 'reveal' new content.  20% of the content features may take 40-50% of the development time...So 60% of the feature list could be accurate, but in the sense of gauging how close it is to launch, it could be only 25% of the way time wise.

 

The only way to know, would be to actually ask if the 60% means feature wise, or development time wise.  

  Nadia

Tipster

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11789

8/18/14 2:48:12 PM#28

sorry - couldnt resist   (my day job is IT management)

http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=2235828&seqNum=13

Many people have come to me with projects that they believe are “90% complete.” They never have been. It’s hard to know exactly how far along a project actually is, but when someone tells you they’re 80% or 90% of the way done with a project, they’re almost always wrong. Why does this happen so often?

Well, first off, most people don’t actually bother to go through the effort of really measuring project status but want to act as if they know what they’re doing. So they tend to make up numbers, and 80% and 90% are good round, made-up numbers. Really, it’s just a common and convenient lie told by developers and project managers the world over. When people tell you they’re 80% or 90% done, ask them how they arrived at that percentage.

..

What happens is that developers write all the code to implement all the features before turning over the code to QA for testing, and they assume that testing is just a formality and won’t turn up very much. They assume, for example, that the testing at the end will be 10% or so of the project time. When testing turns up a whole bunch of stuff, they stick to their guns and think (or at least say) that they’re still 90% done. This is where we get the joke that “the first 90% of the project takes 90% of the time, and the last 10% of the project takes the other 90% of the time.”

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

8/18/14 3:37:44 PM#29
Originally posted by Nadia

sorry - couldnt resist   (my day job is IT management)

http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=2235828&seqNum=13

Many people have come to me with projects that they believe are “90% complete.” They never have been. It’s hard to know exactly how far along a project actually is, but when someone tells you they’re 80% or 90% of the way done with a project, they’re almost always wrong. Why does this happen so often?

Well, first off, most people don’t actually bother to go through the effort of really measuring project status but want to act as if they know what they’re doing. So they tend to make up numbers, and 80% and 90% are good round, made-up numbers. Really, it’s just a common and convenient lie told by developers and project managers the world over. When people tell you they’re 80% or 90% done, ask them how they arrived at that percentage.

..

What happens is that developers write all the code to implement all the features before turning over the code to QA for testing, and they assume that testing is just a formality and won’t turn up very much. They assume, for example, that the testing at the end will be 10% or so of the project time. When testing turns up a whole bunch of stuff, they stick to their guns and think (or at least say) that they’re still 90% done. This is where we get the joke that “the first 90% of the project takes 90% of the time, and the last 10% of the project takes the other 90% of the time.”

As a software engineer myself, who works on games, I can see where you're coming from.  However, Dave is not new to this process.  This isn't his first rodeo and he knows how fluid time lines can be and he isn't making some rookie mistake of grossly over/under estimating how much progress they've made.

 

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

8/18/14 3:48:28 PM#30
Originally posted by Xthos
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Nevulus

To me 100% is a playable alpha, so maybe 60% seems just about right.

 

Opinions, everyone's got them. But only a few weird ones think it applies to the world.

If 100% complete is playable alpha - then what is beta? 120%?

What about open beta? 130%?

Game launch - 140%?

I am confused

Can a game be more complete than 100%?

 

The man clearly said:

"So we are 60% complete with EverQuest Next."

 

He didn't say 60% complete with EQNext Alpha - he just said EQNext. Period - which would imply the whole game.

And I think that's incorrect.

 

Well, something could be 100% feature complete, and Alpha/Closed Beta/Open Beta could be used to refine the already included feature.  Obviously this hasn't been the approach with Landmark, and I personally believe Next will not have as many growing pains towards release as Landmark, due to Landmark being the proving ground for a lot of the technologies, but some stuff is going into Next, that will not be in Landmark, due to them being different in the end, so I think Next will still have problems to solve, even once they solve their problems for Landmark.

 

Again, what does 60% mean?  Does it mean feature wise, or work wise?  Land generation may be say 10% of the features or less, but 20-25% of the work, with the tiers and the 'earthquakes' that shift and 'reveal' new content.  20% of the content features may take 40-50% of the development time...So 60% of the feature list could be accurate, but in the sense of gauging how close it is to launch, it could be only 25% of the way time wise.

 

The only way to know, would be to actually ask if the 60% means feature wise, or development time wise.  

We don't know exactly what he mean't by 60%, which is a good point.  He could have just simply mean't they're about 60% done with all the features, and after 100% there is still work to be done with implementing / testing them.  He could have also mean't that they're 60% through the development, 40% to go until day 1 release.

Another  thing is that we don't know how far along they're going to get before they give players an alpha to test.  Some companies do in house alpha/beta testing and only allow players to participate in an open-beta stress test 30 days out from release.

SOE let players into Landmark alpha well before the game was feature complete because they wanted players to use the building tools to create assets for the game.

So EQN close alpha buy-in for founders could start up in 1 or 2 months from now.  It could start up a year from now.  We don't know for sure.  However, given how much they're involving the community for these projects, if I was asked to put money on the table and pick a time frame, I think the safest bet is 6 months from now, end of January / start of February at the latest would be my guess for when found-pack buyer closed alpha will start.

 

 

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  Nadia

Tipster

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11789

8/18/14 3:53:30 PM#31
Originally posted by Gallus85

So EQN close alpha buy-in for founders could start up in 1 or 2 months from now.  It could start up a year from now.  We don't know for sure.  However, given how much they're involving the community for these projects, if I was asked to put money on the table and pick a time frame, I think the safest bet is 6 months from now, end of January / start of February at the latest would be my guess for when found-pack buyer closed alpha will start.

I really dont know but I share the same hopes

  olepi

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/15/07
Posts: 1074

8/18/14 3:56:35 PM#32
I usually go by the 80/20 rule in s/w development: the first 80% takes 80% of the effort and time, and the last 20% takes the other 80% of effort and time.

------------
RIP City of Heroes. One of my favorite MMO's.

  AmbrosiaAmor

Novice Member

Joined: 11/24/10
Posts: 905

 
OP  8/19/14 5:44:33 PM#33
Originally posted by vorpal28

Different companies will have different definition's for what an alpha is, and from comments read here it seems alot of people don't understand what is meant by alpha builds.

Where I work as a developer we class an alpha build as a fully working prototype, with all planned feature's written and working. It's at this point we say the alpha is ready and then begin the next task which is to optimise the build and fine tune everything.

Now for us we don't have to worry about investors, so we can, as a company, do it this way, other places I have worked have classed barely working software as an alpha build and essentially built the software and called it an alpha.

It all depends on your understanding of software development and constraints that the company is under to produce a working product.

 

Thank you, Nadia, and others who work in the field for your responses. It definitely gives me a new perspective. To be honest one of the main reasons I opened up this thread was due to the fact that every couple of weeks someone was opening a new thread that either had to do "Where is EverQuest Next" or "Is It Coming Out Soon." For me personally the main point wasn't so much about the 60%, but rather what was expanded on in the following comment.

 

At the moment EverQuest Next is about 60% feature complete and when Landmark open beta is announced they will be mostly done with the game's features. This could be anywhere from 80 to 90 percent. But even then, that isn't the main point. The main point is what he stated after that.

 

They will heavily focus on A.I. (which isn't going to be your typical enemy/NPC A.I.), as well as content, as well as all the other stuff which includes the 40 classes, the balancing, and everything else under the rainbow. I honestly find it hard to believe that the game will go into the beta/release phase in Q1/Q2 2015. I still think that the game is coming out 2016 with Q3/Q4 2015 as a positive outlook versus a "realistic" one for the beta/release phase.

 

So my question to those especially that has or currently works in the field (and others), when do you think the game will enter beta/open beta/release phases?

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2544

World > Quest Progression

8/19/14 10:17:41 PM#34
I was surprised by the 60% number but I think the estimate could easily be correct without having a playable alpha. Just because the AI tools haven't been built doesn't mean they can't place the NPCs. Even if they can't do that they can still storyboard and build like/dislike databanks for them. EQN as they describe it, and shown some SB mapping, is not like a typical MMO. A lot of preparation work can be done ahead of time waiting for the in game tools to be made.

The world is another piece that can be done right now. They mentioned at last years Live that the world had already been seeded and designers were working on specialized areas. The recent workshop contests seem to be for the racial cities.
  azarhal

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/06/09
Posts: 588

8/20/14 8:33:59 AM#35
Originally posted by Aelious
I was surprised by the 60% number but I think the estimate could easily be correct without having a playable alpha. Just because the AI tools haven't been built doesn't mean they can't place the NPCs. Even if they can't do that they can still storyboard and build like/dislike databanks for them. EQN as they describe it, and shown some SB mapping, is not like a typical MMO. A lot of preparation work can be done ahead of time waiting for the in game tools to be made.

The world is another piece that can be done right now. They mentioned at last years Live that the world had already been seeded and designers were working on specialized areas. The recent workshop contests seem to be for the racial cities.

60% feature complete is not the same thing has 60% content complete.

Feature complete means they have all the gameplay features they want and they are in a close to final state. Things like combat, AI, animation framework, AH, crafting, server code, etc.  To have an playable alpha you need to have specific features completed.

Anyway, this is moot for EQNext, because Landmark is EQNext alpha. All the feature complete systems are present in Landmark right now.

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2544

World > Quest Progression

8/20/14 9:00:12 AM#36
Azarhal

I agree and like how they are transitioning tools through Landmark as to let the players "play" along with the developers. Dave said "we are 60% complete". No reference specifically to features or in general so I was simply pointing out how much work they could he doing to complete it without having those tools yet like AI/scripting. As we can see from the SB panel video they are already progressing on that without having the final tools rolled out. For all we know they could have the world minus the racial cities/outposts close to completion.
  CrazKanuk

Elite Member

Joined: 10/06/09
Posts: 1596

8/20/14 9:11:54 AM#37
Originally posted by DMKano

I agree with your assessment.

The idea that a MMORPG is *60% done* and not in a playable alpha state is ludicrous.

Landmark was released as Alpha *way before* it was 60% complete, SoE's new way of development is to give it to players as early as possible so that they can get immediate feedback from the masses.

Again my opinion - but if EQNext were really 60% complete - I'd be playing it right now with thousands of others via Founder's Pack.

The fact that we are NOT playing it yet - is proof enough for me that the 60% figure is just completely taken out of context, an honest mistake or pure BS.

Take your pick.

 

 

Meh, it's really difficult to say. Alphas these days are more polished than ever before. You basically have a game and then it's, generally, about adding content. I remember when Alphas were like untextured models, etc., etc.

 

Is 60% referring to the time invested? If so, what are we looking at? Another 2 years? Another year before Alpha? Or are we talking about milestones? Or a little of both? 

 

60% really means nothing. 

Crazkanuk

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  Superman0X

Elite Member

Joined: 3/28/06
Posts: 1145

8/20/14 11:47:55 AM#38

60% complete is a GREAT estimation!

 

As long as you are taking into consideration the 80/20 rule:

The first 80% of the work, takes 20% of the time/effort

The last 20% of the work, takes 80% of the time/effort

 

 

  Rusque

Elite Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 1876

8/20/14 11:52:22 AM#39

I believe it. The 60% they have done is what you see in Landmark. They've built an engine and have the canvas on which to create their world.

The other 40% that hasn't been worked on is EQN.

So overall, 60% done. However, they are 0% complete on EQN.

  Collected

Novice Member

Joined: 2/25/14
Posts: 1

8/20/14 12:07:05 PM#40

I like to think of it as a big sandpit with a wall splitting it in half.

On one half you have "Landmark". In this half of the big sand pit they're busy testing ways to build structures, test AI, test player interactions and all the other features they intend to use in Next.

On the other half of the sand pit you have "Next" which is a big world where they're going to take all the working features from the Landmark side and drop them into the Next side. So amazing structures, tested AI, tested player abilities, all the wonderful stuff that goes into making a functional MMO.

So while everything is being tested in Landmark... a world is being built in Next.

Both sides exist on the same sand (same game engine). So if you're playing Landmark.. in theory you're playing in a Next world. It's just called something different and it's serving a different purpose.

My concern? When I play Landmark I don't think "Oh wow this would make an amazing full MMO" .. I think "Why does this game run at 10fps and feel so clunky." - That's my concern. I don't think our PCs can handle the engine. Not in an MMO setting. It's ok for building structures but for an MMO, PVE and PVP? I'm not so sure.

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