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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » What can we confirm from SOE Live 2014

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23 posts found
  Gallus85

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1113

 
OP  8/17/14 7:40:53 PM#1

First thing that really stood out to me in an interview was that Horizontal progression was in fact confirmed.  However, I still remain confused about their "Tier" system.  Tiers sound vertical, but I can't be sure.  Does anyone have any quotes or videos explaining the tier system and how it works within their horizontal progression character system?

Next.  Combat abilities / passives.  I heard one of the devs mention that there will be 4 skills that are derived from your class, based on the weapon you're holding and they stated that there would be at least 2 weapon choices per class,  (so warrior + 2h sword = 4 skills, warrior + hammer/shield = 4 different skills, and these same weapons equipped by a different class would give different abilities).  We also know there are 4 other skill slots that can come from either your current equipped class, or from other classes you currently have access to.

But one thing that was said seemed strange: That there would be about 12 activate-able abilities per class(not including passives that the class can unlock).  So does this mean there are 8 weapon+class abilities and that each class only has 4 multiclassable abilities?  I thought that there would be a bigger pool to choose from when it came to the multiclass-slot skills per class, but I'm not understanding how to skills are distributed within the pool given that "about 12" number.  I also heard that different armors will have different abilities tied to them as well.  If anyone could shed some light on this with video / dev quotes to confirm, that would be great.

 

 

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  azarhal

Elite Member

Joined: 7/06/09
Posts: 578

8/17/14 8:59:15 PM#2
Originally posted by Gallus85

First thing that really stood out to me in an interview was that Horizontal progression was in fact confirmed.  However, I still remain confused about their "Tier" system.  Tiers sound vertical, but I can't be sure.  Does anyone have any quotes or videos explaining the tier system and how it works within their horizontal progression character system?

Next.  Combat abilities / passives.  I heard one of the devs mention that there will be 4 skills that are derived from your class, based on the weapon you're holding and they stated that there would be at least 2 weapon choices per class,  (so warrior + 2h sword = 4 skills, warrior + hammer/shield = 4 different skills, and these same weapons equipped by a different class would give different abilities).  We also know there are 4 other skill slots that can come from either your current equipped class, or from other classes you currently have access to.

But one thing that was said seemed strange: That there would be about 12 activate-able abilities per class(not including passives that the class can unlock).  So does this mean there are 8 weapon+class abilities and that each class only has 4 multiclassable abilities?  I thought that there would be a bigger pool to choose from when it came to the multiclass-slot skills per class, but I'm not understanding how to skills are distributed within the pool given that "about 12" number.  I also heard that different armors will have different abilities tied to them as well.  If anyone could shed some light on this with video / dev quotes to confirm, that would be great.

The class tier are linked to unlocking class abilities (see beginning of Classes of Everquest panel when they start to talk about the Tempest). It's more of a "learn your class" system.

From what I understand, there is only 12 ability per class. The 4 secondaries are what can be mix-matched among your known classes (that is a 160 pool at launch for all 40 classes). What is unclear is how passives works. They mention they need to be equipped and we know you can get some from Lore and Achievements too. The confusing part is that there was no information if they counted has secondaries and took up those slots or if they were event counted among the 12 abilities. Going by what they showed, they didn't seem like secondaries. Passives only have an origin keyword and when they talked about mix-matching they were taking skills with origin+type keywords.

Gear offer synergy with classes based the keywords. This mean your gear improve your build in a very specific way that match your playstyle. In the Classes of Everquest panel, they gave the example of gear changing one damage type to another to exploit another piece of gear bonus.

Landmark works differently, in that game the weapons grant the combat abilities and a fire sword doesn't grant the same ones has a plain one does. I don't think this is going to be in EQNext.

All the panel links can be found here.

  Gallus85

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1113

 
OP  8/17/14 9:11:39 PM#3

Ya I got all that.

-The 12 abilities per class is not including passives. (this was said at one of the panels QnA).

-Weapons and armor in Landmark are what give you specific abilities when you equip them (like Terraria), but EQN uses the class system to unlock skills.

-Class + equipped weapon = your 4 Left-side Skills.

-Your 4 right-side skills are swap-able between classes

-there are 4 types of skills *defensive, offensive, movement, utility.

-Your right-hand side skill slots have a differing set of skill types that are allowed based on your current equipped class. (a cleric for example might have 2 defense and 2 utility while a tempest might have 1 offense, and 2 movement and 1 utility)

However, with 8 skills per class being based on class + weapon choice (4 for one set, 4 for another), that only leaves 4 remaining for the right hand side swap-slots.  I was hoping that each individual class would have been a little more customizable than that.

Also, to be clear on Tiers, I guess it makes sense that maybe you only start out with a couple skills and then "tier up" to unlock the rest of them (but your actual power, armor, hp, etc isn't increasing, so a tier 2 player can have fun and play with their tier 5 friend.

 It just sounds weird.  I'm hoping for a pure horizontal system, where I can play for 40 hours a week and my friend can play for 2 hours a week and we're still able to group and adventure together just fine.

A more skill based combat system that allows for real free-roaming and doesn't create community barriers.

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2734

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

8/17/14 9:19:11 PM#4
Originally posted by Gallus85

Ya I got all that.

-The 12 abilities per class is not including passives. (this was said at one of the panels QnA).

-Weapons and armor in Landmark are what give you specific abilities when you equip them (like Terraria), but EQN uses the class system to unlock skills.

-Class + equipped weapon = your 4 Left-side Skills.

-Your 4 right-side skills are swap-able between classes

-there are 4 types of skills *defensive, offensive, movement, utility.

-Your right-hand side skill slots have a differing set of skill types that are allowed based on your current equipped class. (a cleric for example might have 2 defense and 2 utility while a tempest might have 1 offense, and 2 movement and 1 utility)

However, with 8 skills per class being based on class + weapon choice (4 for one set, 4 for another), that only leaves 4 remaining for the right hand side swap-slots.  I was hoping that each individual class would have been a little more customizable than that.

Also, to be clear on Tiers, I guess it makes sense that maybe you only start out with a couple skills and then "tier up" to unlock the rest of them (but your actual power, armor, hp, etc isn't increasing, so a tier 2 player can have fun and play with their tier 5 friend.

 It just sounds weird.  I'm hoping for a pure horizontal system, where I can play for 40 hours a week and my friend can play for 2 hours a week and we're still able to group and adventure together just fine.

A more skill based combat system that allows for real free-roaming and doesn't create community barriers.

Look at any game and the majority of any classes will only use a handful of abilities.  The rest are fluff, situational and things that are not needed in the grand scheme of things.  Things like minor buffs or situation abilities do nothing but clutter your hotbar.  8-12 abilities is plenty.  Not only is it plenty, but it alleviates a huge developmental hurdle for the studio in balance issues.  Now you can have anything you want but can only use a percentage of those skills.  This creates a more diversified character and allows a player to play how they want to play via building their perfect set of skills.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  ice-vortex

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/21/10
Posts: 921

8/17/14 10:14:30 PM#5
Originally posted by Gallus85

Ya I got all that.

-The 12 abilities per class is not including passives. (this was said at one of the panels QnA).

-Weapons and armor in Landmark are what give you specific abilities when you equip them (like Terraria), but EQN uses the class system to unlock skills.

-Class + equipped weapon = your 4 Left-side Skills.

-Your 4 right-side skills are swap-able between classes

-there are 4 types of skills *defensive, offensive, movement, utility.

-Your right-hand side skill slots have a differing set of skill types that are allowed based on your current equipped class. (a cleric for example might have 2 defense and 2 utility while a tempest might have 1 offense, and 2 movement and 1 utility)

However, with 8 skills per class being based on class + weapon choice (4 for one set, 4 for another), that only leaves 4 remaining for the right hand side swap-slots.  I was hoping that each individual class would have been a little more customizable than that.

Also, to be clear on Tiers, I guess it makes sense that maybe you only start out with a couple skills and then "tier up" to unlock the rest of them (but your actual power, armor, hp, etc isn't increasing, so a tier 2 player can have fun and play with their tier 5 friend.

 It just sounds weird.  I'm hoping for a pure horizontal system, where I can play for 40 hours a week and my friend can play for 2 hours a week and we're still able to group and adventure together just fine.

A more skill based combat system that allows for real free-roaming and doesn't create community barriers.

Your equipment modifies your abilities and how your class plays. Like changing all your martial abilities into nature or reducing your hit points while increasing your damage.

  Gallus85

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1113

 
OP  8/17/14 11:44:40 PM#6
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Gallus85

Ya I got all that.

-The 12 abilities per class is not including passives. (this was said at one of the panels QnA).

-Weapons and armor in Landmark are what give you specific abilities when you equip them (like Terraria), but EQN uses the class system to unlock skills.

-Class + equipped weapon = your 4 Left-side Skills.

-Your 4 right-side skills are swap-able between classes

-there are 4 types of skills *defensive, offensive, movement, utility.

-Your right-hand side skill slots have a differing set of skill types that are allowed based on your current equipped class. (a cleric for example might have 2 defense and 2 utility while a tempest might have 1 offense, and 2 movement and 1 utility)

However, with 8 skills per class being based on class + weapon choice (4 for one set, 4 for another), that only leaves 4 remaining for the right hand side swap-slots.  I was hoping that each individual class would have been a little more customizable than that.

Also, to be clear on Tiers, I guess it makes sense that maybe you only start out with a couple skills and then "tier up" to unlock the rest of them (but your actual power, armor, hp, etc isn't increasing, so a tier 2 player can have fun and play with their tier 5 friend.

 It just sounds weird.  I'm hoping for a pure horizontal system, where I can play for 40 hours a week and my friend can play for 2 hours a week and we're still able to group and adventure together just fine.

A more skill based combat system that allows for real free-roaming and doesn't create community barriers.

Look at any game and the majority of any classes will only use a handful of abilities.  The rest are fluff, situational and things that are not needed in the grand scheme of things.  Things like minor buffs or situation abilities do nothing but clutter your hotbar.  8-12 abilities is plenty.  Not only is it plenty, but it alleviates a huge developmental hurdle for the studio in balance issues.  Now you can have anything you want but can only use a percentage of those skills.  This creates a more diversified character and allows a player to play how they want to play via building their perfect set of skills.

I think you are misunderstanding what I wrote.  My opinion on the combat layout and customization is a positive one.  I like action combat and limited hotbars, because they put more emphasis on the combat itself, allows for better character building and rewards skill over hotkey rotation and macro spamming.

My comment was talking about something completely different.  I was hoping for each class to give more skills for more customization.  They mentioned about "12 skills per class".  So for example:

Cleric + 2h hammer = 4 skills.

Cleric + hammer/shield = 4 different skills.

Then you got the 4 skills that go into the multiclass section on the hotbar (the right 4 slots).  That's 12 skills total if cleric only has 4 skills for that spot on the bar.  Which means that if Cleric is your only unlocked class for your character, you have only 1 choice that you can make to change skills around (your weapon skills).  So I was commenting on that specifically, that I was hoping for more inter-class customization.

Maybe something like 16 - 20 skills total per-class to pick from.  The left 4 skills on the bar from your weapon+class (that's 8 if there are 2 weapon choices per class).  Then maybe 8  skills to pick from for your right hand side of the skill bar for the other 4 slots.  So that each class itself would have a variety of builds to pick from within itself without having to go into multi classing.

I'm sure that with unlocking a dozen or so classes you'd have a huge amount of customization (that would be 12 classes, 2 weapon choices per, for 96 different skill choices, then you'd have a pool of 48 multi-class skills you could pick from in your other 4 skill slots)... so I can totally see there being enough customization once you get into collecting other classes.

I was just kinda hoping that individual classes would have more customization themselves and wanted to know if anyone else had more info on this.

And frankly, this isn't even a real "concern" for me.  With what I've already described there seems to be a good amount of customization that we're going to have with our characters, especially since gear in this game isn't about vertical stat climbing, but rather augmenting / changing the way our skills act, it seems like there's plenty of customization to keep most people happy.  I guess I was just taken back by the "12 skills per class".  It sounds small, but I guess it's important to keep in mind 40 classes (at least).... which is at least 480 actual skills(not including passives) in game at launch.

 

My much bigger concern (for my personal taste/wants) is that they stick to a true horizontal progression based game.  Tiers are what's worrying me the most, as I haven't seen or heard any good details on "tiers" yet.  The point of horizontal progression is that it makes a Skyrim-esk experience, where you roam and play where ever you want at any time.  It would allow a friend to pick up the game and play with your veteran character without any issues right away.  It allows you to chose group mates based on more important things than "how many hours did they grind gear / levels".  You meet a guy that's friendly?  You can group up with them no matter what and have fun, regardless if they're a new or old player.

It keeps the entire game world open to adventure, instead of jamming you into a small section of "high level land / dungeon". 

So if anyone has any really good details on their tier system that I might have missed, please let me know.

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  Allein

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/13
Posts: 924

8/18/14 12:51:57 AM#7
Originally posted by Gallus85

Maybe something like 16 - 20 skills total per-class to pick from.  The left 4 skills on the bar from your weapon+class (that's 8 if there are 2 weapon choices per class).  Then maybe 8  skills to pick from for your right hand side of the skill bar for the other 4 slots.  So that each class itself would have a variety of builds to pick from within itself without having to go into multi classing.

I was also hoping for this and thought it could be tied to the Tier system. Where you unlock your 8 weapon skills fairly quickly by simply playing, like a natural tutorial, but then each Tier would give another 2 secondary skills or so. Ending up with 8 weapon and maybe 12 secondary.

With so many classes, I see why this is too much work from the start and 12 flat is more plausible. Especially with how complex multi-classing and class building is.

Although there is nothing stopping them from giving each class 1-2 skills every year or so or making it into some sort of higher end achievement. Doesn't have to be an ultimate super move, simply unlock a new average skill to mix in. Those that really love being a Necro, can put in the time and energy to get one more Necro skill.

Then again, I would probably rather see 1-2 complete classes once in a while instead of this.

My much bigger concern (for my personal taste/wants) is that they stick to a true horizontal progression based game.  Tiers are what's worrying me the most, as I haven't seen or heard any good details on "tiers" yet.  The point of horizontal progression is that it makes a Skyrim-esk experience, where you roam and play where ever you want at any time.  It would allow a friend to pick up the game and play with your veteran character without any issues right away.  It allows you to chose group mates based on more important things than "how many hours did they grind gear / levels".  You meet a guy that's friendly?  You can group up with them no matter what and have fun, regardless if they're a new or old player.

It keeps the entire game world open to adventure, instead of jamming you into a small section of "high level land / dungeon". 

I assumed it would be a Tier 5 Warrior would still find challenge and incentive to play in a Tier 1 area. Allowing Tier 1 & 5 players to play along side each other. If players want to move on to even more challenge and reward, they would have to prove themselves (such as earning a full set of Tier 1 gear to move on to Tier 2, which they gave as an example last year).

So a new player could play beside a vet friend without the vet being bored or "wasting" their time, but a new player couldn't instantly jump into Tier 5 and take on the most challenging content without first proving themselves.

I'm still unclear how any of it will work and not sure there is an incentive for a Tier 5 to go back to the earlier Tiers. Maybe it is tied into crafting and materials are needed from all of them or encounters are much larger than other games so where it took 10 Tier 1 players to fight a pack, now a Tier 5 does it with a Tier 3 and the risk/reward is still fun and worth it.

They've said vertical progress will still be present, just not so in your face and forced. How much is the question. What's the difference between a Tier 1 Warrior and Tier 5 Warrior?

Hopefully they don't take another year to explain progression.

Storybricks sounds very interesting, but I'm curious how much it will play into the Tiers themselves and the degree of challenge. If Tier 5 is simply "harder" than Tier 1, why would someone go backwards, beyond having 40 classes to move through the Tiers, unless this is the point. What happens when all 40 are Tier 5?

So many questions lol. Sorry for loading them on you, just getting my mind clear.

 

  Gallus85

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1113

 
OP  8/18/14 1:15:21 AM#8

Ya I guess with 40 classes, maybe more than 12 skills per class is asking a lot.  We'll have to see how it plays out.  

Is there any good articles or videos out there on "tier" system.  If a Tier 2 player can't go into "tier 5 areas" or can't handle the content in a group and do well, then it defeats the purpose of horizontal progression.  It's creating an arbitrary and unneeded barrier between community members and areas in the game.  They have been very specific about gear not being "stronger", just another layer of customization to alter your character's skills and abilities.

So if gear is not vertical in power, why would you "need" tier 4 gear to do move up and do tier 5 mobs?  I think it would be nice to have "tiers" just mean varying levels of difficulty, to give players a reason to group up or form a raid... but if it's vertical progression in some form then it's in direct conflict with the point of their horizontal character system.

I wouldn't worry about giving players a "reason to do lower tier content", since gear isn't supposed to be vertical, it's supposed to just be "different".  So you might want a tier 5 dropped amulet for your build, but a tier 1 boss somewhere might drop a ring that works really well for your build.

I would like to see some videos or articles with them discussing this though, if you have any.

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  Gallus85

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1113

 
OP  8/18/14 1:30:32 AM#9

Ok so I found this quote that I will link below, but it basically confirms that there is going to be a "tiny" amount of vertical progression as you unlock "tiers" for a class you have.  But it's just a rating of your progress through unlocking class and it happens very fast (days or weeks he says at most), and all it basically is, is that Tier 1 means you just unlocked a class and only have a few of it's skills, and Tier 5 means you've unlocked everything that class has to offer.  

Your character isn't "stronger" at tier 5, really, it's just that you have more abilities at your disposal.  You're more able to adapt to different situations.  You have more customization options.  But it's not like a level system where you crit for 50 damage at tier 1 with "fireball and you crit for 5000 damage at Tier 5 with "fireball".

This system is going to go a long way to making the PVE fit well into a free-roaming horizontal game, and making it so that if there's open world PvP, it doesn't devolve into "Oh I'm lvl 100 that means I can go to a lvl 30 area and 1 shot every noob in sight!".  Far more skill based, far more about customization/character building and allowing for a free-roam adventure akin to something you see in an Elders Scrolls game.

Sounds great to me.  Here's the quote from Dave:

While trying to get a handle on the new concepts of EverQuest Next, some folks latched onto the term tiers as a substitute for levels. Georgeson, however, explained that the two are not just interchangeable terms for the same idea. Tier doesn't equate to power level -- it means capability. Higher tiers mean that players have a handle on how the game is played, from how to do combat to how to manipulate their skills to make various builds. It also means that they have a more robust selection of skills, giving them more flexibility to deal with situations. Unlocking tiers is a matter of demonstrating you know what's going on in the game. And moving up tiers is not going to be a laborious process: Georgeson stated, "Unlocking them is a matter of days and weeks, not years."

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  Allein

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/13
Posts: 924

8/18/14 2:02:06 AM#10

My issue is them using Tier for both Classes and the World.

Classes seem fairly horizontal where going from 1-5 is just a matter of learning the class, not stacking power.

World Tiers however seem much more vertical.

If gear doesn't become "better" or more powerful through the Tiers and a Tier 5 Class can do just fine with Tier 1 Gear, I'm missing what else is going on.

There is the obvious, if you want more challenge, move up the World Tiers (technically down I guess).

Would this just be a natural match making system? Those that can and want to play more challenging content will, those that want less, will do so. Naturally keeping the "hardcore" and "casuals" in different parts of the world without making either the target audience. And or allowing for Solo to huge Raids to be options in all Tiers. Where a skilled player can get by fine alone, but it takes several less average players to come together to overcome the same content.

For me personally, I want a challenge, so would stick with Tier 5 probably. While the dynamic content could hopefully sustain me for a long time, it seems like a waste if going back to Tier 1 means I can "easily" out do any challenge as I'm overqualified skill wise. If I'm a chess master, playing against amateurs probably isn't going to be exciting, even if I'm playing 10 games at once.

I'm hoping there is a missing piece that is key to linking the Tiers of Classes and the World, but so far I'm not fully getting it.

Beyond that quote and similar details, haven't seen/read anything else too different.

Either way, I'm not really worried, still looks like a great system and I'm sure they have something in place to keep it interesting. Might just need to dial back my hope of how horizontal it really will be.

  Gallus85

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1113

 
OP  8/18/14 2:19:30 AM#11

They could always give non-power increasing incentives to do harder, higher tier content areas.

More cash drops, items that have similar powered effects but look different/more impressive cosmetically, more frequent rare drops, etc.

And like I said, if you're looking to enhance a specific build, with the way they set up the gear system, the most optimal piece of gear for a specific build you want for your specific class may drop in some Tier 3 place.

Personally, I was almost hoping that "Tier" as it pertained to the world/mobs was going to be the system that determines how many people you might need to tackle a challenge.

Tier 1 - Can be done fairly easily (not steam-roll ever, but medium difficulty) for a solo player just starting up the game or a veteran player trying to solo build up/learn a new class.

Tier 2 - Upper-Moderate/Hard for solo players

Tier 3 - Moderately difficult "group" content.  May not be impossible for a very skilled and very careful solo player to kill slowly.

Tier 4 - Hard group content, not soloable

Tier 5 - Raid difficulty mobs.  Multiple groups of well coordinated people to take on.

That said I haven't seen anything that even suggests that kind of system.

Sounds to me like Tiers vary in difficulty, but it shouldn't bar any player from tackling the content regardless of long they played. Almost entirely horizontal and skill based in nature.

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  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3341

8/18/14 3:43:35 AM#12

     OK.. I'll try and pipe in from what I saw and heard from last year, and a little this year..   BTW.. before I start, I thought this years panels were very vague and confusing about class and combat..  Personally I would give them a "D minus" grade for performance and execution..

    First I"ll discuss the character skill slots..   EQN will have 4 weapon skills, that operate very much like GW2 does..  If your character equips a sword/shield, you will have 4 defining weapon attacks that are NOT swappable..  So in this case if a cleric wields a 2H mace, he'll have 4 distinctive weapon abilities, whereas the same 2H mace in the hands of a Paladin will give 4 different ones..  As I said the weapon skills/abilities are not swappable.. 

     Now as for the 4 class abilities that are "right" side per example..  These are unrelated to weapons and armor, and are class / category defining..  Example of this would be a spell called "Blink" that allows for short distance teleporting.. This would be a spell that is acquired by Wizzard class for example and is categorized as "movement"..  These skills are swappable as long as the category is the same..  Such as swapping out the Blink skill can only be done between other "movement" skills..   So if a Warrior class has "Dash" as a movement skill, the two are interchangeable..   As stated above tho, each class will have their own line up of what 4 category skills they will be allowed such as Offense, Defense, Utility and Movement..  Example is if the Warrior and Cleric only have 1 movement ability, it's impossible for either of those classes to choose both Blink and Dash in their hotkey line-up..  

     Now for the tiering..  This is a 2 fold issue..  One refers to world exploration, the other is character unlocking..  Most of the game is horizontal progression, however there is vertical progression as well..  A tier 1 character might start off with 2 skills, and as they tier up, they unlock two abilities..  I'm unsure if this means more power, or more variables, or both..  Again their presentation on this was poor.. I'm also under the impression that a tier 2 weapon is better then a tier 1 weapon.. Not that is makes the weapon more powerful, but the armor and weapons have "buffs and adjustments" built into them..  I"ll call these perks.. So the higher the tier you go, the better perks you get.. Which I'm sure will have an indirect effect on the power of the character.. 

    Now the world itself has tiers too..  These are areas of the map that must be unlocked.. Which actually sucks in a way..  Bare with me..  If I'm a new character (tier 1) and I want to hook up with a buddy of mine that has been playing for awhile already, I can ONLY go into tier 1 locations..  So if Befallen location is in a tier 2 world location underground, I"m LOCKED out from that until I earn and unlock tier 2..  This is a hurdle I don't support or like..  Sure my buddy that is tier 3 can play with me in all the tier 1 parts of the map, but I'm unable to fully explore the map.... This is vertical map progression LOCKOUTS..  It was not clear or addressed how you unlock those tiers..  Are you required to grind XP ?  or do task/quest to unlock ?  OR can you just visit the cash shop and take a short cut?   <shrug> 

     I think I covered the two topics, if I missed something.. let me know..  Again, I think the panel wasted a lot of time of talking rubbish instead of just SHOWING people class skills abilities as we would see them in the character UI..   They should of showed us a default UI with screen shots on HOW we things look like from a character sheet (C)= character or (S)= skills.. The 20 minutes wasted on talking about shadow this, or dark that, or electric this or fire that, was all confusing to most and lack VISUAL identity..  Even much of the audience that asked question later seemed confused..

  azarhal

Elite Member

Joined: 7/06/09
Posts: 578

8/18/14 7:00:38 AM#13
Originally posted by Allein

My issue is them using Tier for both Classes and the World.

Classes seem fairly horizontal where going from 1-5 is just a matter of learning the class, not stacking power.

World Tiers however seem much more vertical.

If gear doesn't become "better" or more powerful through the Tiers and a Tier 5 Class can do just fine with Tier 1 Gear, I'm missing what else is going on.

I'm hoping there is a missing piece that is key to linking the Tiers of Classes and the World, but so far I'm not fully getting it.

Looking at Landmark, World Tier is a "danger level and loot quality" categorization: a tier 4 chest drops tier 4 materials and has greater chance of special items* and soon there will be mobs in the deeper caves. I expect EQNext to be similar.

A Tier 1 class in a Tier 5 area is going to have issues, but a Tier 5 class will probably have an much easier time there. One or two skills vs 12+passives is a big difference in term of survivability, even if your skill don't hit harder.

I'm not sure how much they want to increase "power" with what they showed. They did say it was shallow tiers, but there is going to be a difference in power between a tier 1 and tier 5 class when you factor in gear and passives. The question is how large is the gap. It's probably something that will get tuned when the game is in beta though.

*props, materials, consumables, gears and soon recipes, templates and other stuff.

  Gallus85

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1113

 
OP  8/18/14 4:09:20 PM#14
Originally posted by Rydeson

     OK.. I'll try and pipe in from what I saw and heard from last year, and a little this year..   BTW.. before I start, I thought this years panels were very vague and confusing about class and combat..  Personally I would give them a "D minus" grade for performance and execution..

I thought they did a good job.  I think that the only thing that was really vague was tiers, which none of the mouth breathers doing the QnA's bothered to bring up to the devs, as they were too busy asking nonsense that had already been covered (which on a side note made my wife and I laugh as we watched the stream and every time this happened the devs said "As we stated last year...." or "We already mentioned.....").

    First I"ll discuss the character skill slots..   EQN will have 4 weapon skills, that operate very much like GW2 does..  If your character equips a sword/shield, you will have 4 defining weapon attacks that are NOT swappable..  So in this case if a cleric wields a 2H mace, he'll have 4 distinctive weapon abilities, whereas the same 2H mace in the hands of a Paladin will give 4 different ones..  As I said the weapon skills/abilities are not swappable.. 

No one said otherwise.  No one thinks that the weapon skills are "swappable".  You swap your WEAPON, you get 4 different* skills.  The first 4 skills are tied directly to the class you're currently in + the weapon you chose.  This has already been said to death and doesn't need any more explanation.

     Now as for the 4 class abilities that are "right" side per example..  These are unrelated to weapons and armor, and are class / category defining..  Example of this would be a spell called "Blink" that allows for short distance teleporting.. This would be a spell that is acquired by Wizzard class for example and is categorized as "movement"..  These skills are swappable as long as the category is the same..  Such as swapping out the Blink skill can only be done between other "movement" skills..   So if a Warrior class has "Dash" as a movement skill, the two are interchangeable..   As stated above tho, each class will have their own line up of what 4 category skills they will be allowed such as Offense, Defense, Utility and Movement..  Example is if the Warrior and Cleric only have 1 movement ability, it's impossible for either of those classes to choose both Blink and Dash in their hotkey line-up..  

This part was pretty clear from SOE Live last year and this year, as I already stated all of this. however my question was specifically about each class being able to unlock more than 4 for this slot on the hotbar.  So that if you only had cleric, you could customize this right hand side a little better.  So if the cleric had 2 defense slots and 2 utility slots, he could possibly have 8 skills to pick from for those slots (4 defense and 4 utility).  However, when you consider the following

-12 skills total per class (stated this year).

-Each class has 2 weapon choices (that takes up 8 skills already).

This doesn't leave room for more variety on the right-side slots per-class.  I get that you can swap them out for other skills once you get more classes, I was just wondering if anyone heard plans or info that would suggest more than 4 "right hand side" skills per class, for more inner-class customization.  I guess it seems like that's a no, but I'm ok with it, personally.  Puts a bit more of an emphasis on multi-classing, collecting other classes,  I guess.

     Now for the tiering..  This is a 2 fold issue..  One refers to world exploration, the other is character unlocking..  Most of the game is horizontal progression, however there is vertical progression as well..  A tier 1 character might start off with 2 skills, and as they tier up, they unlock two abilities..  I'm unsure if this means more power, or more variables, or both..  Again their presentation on this was poor.. I'm also under the impression that a tier 2 weapon is better then a tier 1 weapon.. Not that is makes the weapon more powerful, but the armor and weapons have "buffs and adjustments" built into them..  I"ll call these perks.. So the higher the tier you go, the better perks you get.. Which I'm sure will have an indirect effect on the power of the character.. 

Ya they said that hitting tier 5 won't be hard, just days or weeks at most, but It's going to be interesting to see how they make non-tier 5 areas valuable to play in.  I can see how tier 1 character is "less powerful", as they have less skills at their disposal than a tier 5 one, but again, it's supposed to be very small on how much more "powerful" you are at higher tiers.  You're more "adaptable" rather than more "powerful".  This should go a long way in keeping the entire game world "dangerous", and keep with the free-roaming aspect of the game.

But I am interested in knowing how they will make it so that players want to do any tier of content, and not just have everyone spend 99% of their time in tier 5 areas (which defeats one of the main points of free-roaming horizontal progression.)

    Now the world itself has tiers too..  These are areas of the map that must be unlocked.. Which actually sucks in a way..  Bare with me..  If I'm a new character (tier 1) and I want to hook up with a buddy of mine that has been playing for awhile already, I can ONLY go into tier 1 locations..  So if Befallen location is in a tier 2 world location underground, I"m LOCKED out from that until I earn and unlock tier 2..  This is a hurdle I don't support or like..  Sure my buddy that is tier 3 can play with me in all the tier 1 parts of the map, but I'm unable to fully explore the map.... This is vertical map progression LOCKOUTS..  It was not clear or addressed how you unlock those tiers..  Are you required to grind XP ?  or do task/quest to unlock ?  OR can you just visit the cash shop and take a short cut?    

Ya they make it sound like every time you "unlock a class" you start at the class at "tier 1" with limited skills.  So you could have a Tier 5 warrior and be a tier 1 Wizard.  You equip The warrior, now you're "tier 5", if you equip the wizard, it drops you down to "tier 1".  They also said you can unlock tiers for other classes using any class you want.

So you could just play your Tier 5 character and tier up other classes you've learned, if you want.

But the question does remain, how do you "increase tiers".  They already said it would be a very fast process, so I'm not worried, but how?  Quests? Exp grind? both? None?

And how will they keep players interested in non-tier 5 areas.

I can't wait and see what they got for us.

     I think I covered the two topics, if I missed something.. let me know..  Again, I think the panel wasted a lot of time of talking rubbish instead of just SHOWING people class skills abilities as we would see them in the character UI..   They should of showed us a default UI with screen shots on HOW we things look like from a character sheet (C)= character or (S)= skills.. The 20 minutes wasted on talking about shadow this, or dark that, or electric this or fire that, was all confusing to most and lack VISUAL identity..  Even much of the audience that asked question later seemed confused..

 

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  Allein

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/13
Posts: 924

8/18/14 7:34:42 PM#15
Originally posted by Gallus85

And how will they keep players interested in non-tier 5 areas.

I can't wait and see what they got for us.

This along with actually seeing the AI are the two most wanted on my list.

AI sounds great in theory, would love to see it actually in action, even a simple demo.

How or if all Tiers will still be enjoyable after "maxing" a Class is my other one. Really hoping it isn't "Well you can unlock another class and start all over." Would be okay I guess as it is still one character, but takes some of the air out of the horizontal balloon.

As you said though, it appears you can play 1 class exclusively and "Tier Up" others. Which seems odd if the process of "Tiering Up" is supposed to be a learning process per class.

Assuming they simply haven't finished or aren't ready to reveal some key points that will set it all straight.

Here's to hoping it isn't at the next SOE Live =)

  Gallus85

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1113

 
OP  8/18/14 8:23:31 PM#16

Well I am glad that they already mentioned that hitting T5 in a newly unlocked class won't be some long and boring process.  You unlock new skills quickly and it sort of gives you an introduction to the class, then you're back to the real game.

I hate how most MMORPGs have these long, boring grinds and vertical progression nonsense.  It was cute back in 1999, but I'm over it.  I want to play a game, explore the world, team up and socialize with other players and I don't want any "levels" getting in the way of this experience like other MMORPGs choose to do.

Just like it did for me, most recently in ESO. I powered through the game to V10, but my friend who I bought a copy of the game for had a lot less time to play than I did.  We couldn't do anything together.  Even worst is that making an alt to keep near his level was a task in itself because if he had finished a quest that I hadn't on my alt, it would "phase" me out and we couldn't even play together in that area.

It's this kind of nonsense we don't need in an MMO.  This vertical progression, stat climbing treadmill does nothing valuable for the game and comes with a ton of harmful baggage.

It creates barriers between players (Oh I think you're a nice guy, but I can't group with you because you don't have a high enough gear-check!)

It segments the world into specific "viable areas" of play and makes old content irrelevant and trivial.  So you have this entire world, wonderfully crafted by a team of professional designers, programmers and artists, but I'm relegated to spending the rest of my character's life in 2 or 3 "high level areas" until the next expansion comes out.  Complete rubbish.

This is why horizontal progression is the next logical step for MMORPGs.  It's why games like Oblivion and Skyrim have such huge amounts of replay value.  So far it seems like "Tiers" won't have too much, if any, negative effect on this kind of system.  But we'll only know for sure when we can get our hands on it.

 

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  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3341

8/19/14 4:24:02 AM#17
Originally posted by Gallus85

Well I am glad that they already mentioned that hitting T5 in a newly unlocked class won't be some long and boring process.  You unlock new skills quickly and it sort of gives you an introduction to the class, then you're back to the real game. The thing I don't like tho is..  I'm not a fan of unlocking classes and skills without being required to play them.. SOE was big on stating that as I earn XP, I can spend those points anywhere I want.. I have issues with that, because that means some are not learning how to play that skill to justify it's progression.. Think of it this way.. I'm playing my EQ Druid, so would it be ok for me to use my XP there to skill up my Necro skills? I get the feeling SOE is treating all these class skills like EQ's AA abilities.. 

I hate how most MMORPGs have these long, boring grinds and vertical progression nonsense.  It was cute back in 1999, but I'm over it.  I want to play a game, explore the world, team up and socialize with other players and I don't want any "levels" getting in the way of this experience like other MMORPGs choose to do. But tiers will get in the way at times, just not as noticeable.. I'm not a fan of how bad vertical progression had gotten, but there should be some form of world dividers..  I do support that concept that newbies shouldn't be in certain parts of the world.. EVER.. However, I don't like how the power of a character increased exponentially.. I do like forms of mentoring like what GW2 has done.. You move into a lower level area, the computer knows it and nerfs you automatically..  You never have to worry about out-leveling your friends or whomever.. But like I said, there should be vertical incentives to keep playing as well.. I want to see "Befallen" but that is a harder, higher level area that I need to grow into..

Just like it did for me, most recently in ESO. I powered through the game to V10, but my friend who I bought a copy of the game for had a lot less time to play than I did.  We couldn't do anything together.  Even worst is that making an alt to keep near his level was a task in itself because if he had finished a quest that I hadn't on my alt, it would "phase" me out and we couldn't even play together in that area. Phasing and instancing I hate, and wish it was never in MMO's.. 

It's this kind of nonsense we don't need in an MMO.  This vertical progression, stat climbing treadmill does nothing valuable for the game and comes with a ton of harmful baggage. The way it has been done, yes, it's not needed and I too find it disruptive and segments the player base.. BUT..  I do support minor vertical progression within reason..  Such as..   I support a idea that a level 50 character should be able to kill a newbie with little risk.. However, that being said, I also support the concept that 2 newbies can make a level 50 wish he didn't start a fight he can't finish.. 

It creates barriers between players (Oh I think you're a nice guy, but I can't group with you because you don't have a high enough gear-check!) Agreed.. Gear score from WoW is a perfect example of player division.. I also don't support having content lockouts like "raiding" and mass group sizes.. I believe that all raiding so to speak should be OPEN world similar to GW2 that implements "soft" grouping for xp and rewards..

It segments the world into specific "viable areas" of play and makes old content irrelevant and trivial.  So you have this entire world, wonderfully crafted by a team of professional designers, programmers and artists, but I'm relegated to spending the rest of my character's life in 2 or 3 "high level areas" until the next expansion comes out.  Complete rubbish. With current models, yes, it segments the players too much.. I don't like seeing newbies get 20% of the map, middle levels get 30%, and end game gets 50%.. That is too much progression that forces people to fast grind to end game.. and once there, all the old content is useless..  I support an idea that 80% of the world is useable by EVERYONE, and 10% is for veteran players, and 10% for raiders.. This way newbies get use of 80% of the world like everyone else, and then unlock the more challenging areas once they learn the game and classes.. 

This is why horizontal progression is the next logical step for MMORPGs.  It's why games like Oblivion and Skyrim have such huge amounts of replay value.  So far it seems like "Tiers" won't have too much, if any, negative effect on this kind of system.  But we'll only know for sure when we can get our hands on it.

 

I like to see 75% horizontal and 25% vertical..  generally speaking..

  Skibo12

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/25/10
Posts: 30

8/19/14 4:18:38 PM#18
ya ya ya all is good in the end, because ... PVP!!!
  DeserttFoxx

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Joined: 5/11/04
Posts: 2337

Cry Havok; and let loose the dogs of war.

Si vis pacem, para bellum

8/19/14 6:31:10 PM#19

12 skills is plenty!

40 Classes is a lot of work!

They arent childish graphics, it is stylized realism!

 

Pass on this game.

Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy

Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman

Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson

  Enrif

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/06/13
Posts: 145

8/19/14 10:16:51 PM#20

well, i'm myself not sure how SOE will do tiers, but here's an example how i understood that.

 

First: tier is used in different ways and they are not interchangeable. like, as a tier 1 warrior i should only do tier 1 areas. i doubt this will be the case. think more of "today i want a challenge so i go to tier 5 area" or "meh, just a few minutes chilling i go to a tier 1 Area".

 

 

now the difference tier and concepts behind it (bear with me, english not best here)

 

Class Tiers.

Class tiers define how versatile your class is, not how strong

Tier 1 Warrior: 2 Weapon Skills, 0 Warrior Class Skills, no access to Multiclass Skills

Next Unlock: kill 10 Different Beasts as Warrior

Tier 2 Warrior: 4 Weapon Skills, 1 Warrior Class Skills, access to all Multiclass skills with the same Origin and Damage type

Next Unlock: Equip a full Steel Set , kill 20 Different Beasts , as Warrior

Tier 3 Warrior: 6 Weapon Skills, 2 Warrior Class Skills, access to all Multiclass skills with the same Origin(any damage type)

Next Unlock: Equip a rare Mithril Weapon and a rare Mithril Armor. Kill 100 Orcs, Kill 25 Different Beasts. As Warrior

Tier 4 Warrior: 8 Weapon Skills, 3 Warrior Class Skills, access to all Multiclass skills with the same Damage type(any Origin)

Next Unlock: Equip a Flamesword and kill 5 Dragons with it. Kill 200 Dragon Minions, kill 30 Different Beasts, as Warrior

Tier 5 Warrior: 8 Weapon Skills, 4 Warrior Class Skills, acces to all Multiclass skills

 

 

Area Tier.

Area Tiers are not permanent. Due to Storybricks the Tier of an Area changes with the time. the Tier describes how challenging this place is right now. 

Tier 1 Area: few Monsters, dump Battle AI, good for beginners and to relax

Tier 2 Area: some Monsters, general MMO-Battle AI,standard MMO expirience

Tier 3 Area: Average Monsters(like in other MMO), standard EQN Battle AI(movement, likes/dislikes,etc), the new EQN Standard for MMO

Tier 4 Area: Many Monsters, smarter Battle AI,challenging, equivalent to Dungeons and other Group activities

Tier 5 Area: Lots and lots of Monsters, smartest Battle AI, extreme challenging, raid difficulty, don't got alone!

 

 

Resource Tier.

Resource Tier describes how rare and valuable something is. Copper may Tier 1 and Moonstone Tier 5. But Copper is better to make electric enhancing weapons while Moonstone is good for Energy recharging Trinkets. Not Stronger but rarer and maybe even quite niche.

 

Gear Tier.

Gear can also be tiered. And since we saw that Gear don'T gives stats but "perks" or "passive skills", Tier can refer to how special the effect is.

Tier 1 Copper Sword: Electric Skills are recharging 10% quicker

Tier 2 Copper Sword: Electric Skills deal 10% more damage

Tier 3 Copper Sword: Martial Skills also count as Electric Skills

Tier 4 Copper Sword: Using a physical Electric attack causes your next physisc attack to deal extr 15% electric damage

Tier 5 Copper Sword: Using a physical attack lets your next electric attack to deal another 10% damage as physical(5sec CD). Using a Electric attack lets your nextphysic attack to deal another 10% damage as Electric(5sec CD)

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