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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] General: Teenage Girls Create Their First RPG

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  SBFord

Associate Editor - News Manager

Joined: 6/28/10
Posts: 13447

 
OP  7/17/14 6:27:07 PM#1

It’s Friday and that means it’s time for another edition of The Week in RPGs, your weekly breakdown of all things roleplaying games. This week we’re talking Girls Make Games, new extended gameplay video for Dragon Age: Inquisition, Mass Effect 4, Dark Souls 2’s first DLC, Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel invading Borderlands 2, and even a new Final Fantasy game.

Read more of Christopher Coke's The RPG Files: Teenage Girls Create Their First RPG.

Associate Editor: MMORPG.com
Follow me on Twitter: @MMORPGMom

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 5380

7/18/14 8:18:59 AM#2

Not as bad as I thought it'd be.

Here's the KS page for their game

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2020158234/girls-make-games-grand-prize-winner

Still what is it with girls and unicorns???

 

  FelixMajor

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/27/07
Posts: 547

7/18/14 9:14:14 AM#3
Meh - the talent has nothing to do with gender.   I feel this brings me back to the Mrs. Packman introduction as far the female stigma on playing video games, and how the majority of games 'target' stereotypical male interests.
 

Originally posted by Arskaaa
"when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".

  adam_nox

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/31/06
Posts: 2068

7/18/14 12:08:43 PM#4
We really need more females designing, writing, and managing big game development.  This focus on gender for the making of a small title is really the exact opposite of what would help gaming today.
  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5244

7/18/14 12:17:43 PM#5

This is a game by girls called The Hole Story. Somebody needs to wake me up I thought it was April the 1st.

Title aside I hope they do well, but then I hope all teens do well in games, not just those society has decided we need to "do something about".

I checked the website, guys are not all scowling faces as the they portray us, if you are going to complain about stereotypes best not to perpetuate them, no?

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1372

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

7/18/14 12:25:09 PM#6
Haven't read anything other than the title but I think it's an awesome idea.  Although I'm always pleasantly surprised how many females I see in the credits of games; even very old games like Master of Orion.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  ixproval

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/22/09
Posts: 9

7/18/14 12:53:15 PM#7
Originally posted by Scot

This is a game by girls called The Hole Story. Somebody needs to wake me up I thought it was April the 1st.

Title aside I hope they do well, but then I hope all teens do well in games, not just those society has decided we need to "do something about".

I checked the website, guys are not all scowling faces as the they portray us, if you are going to complain about stereotypes best not to perpetuate them, no?

I started down this line of thinking after looking at the video. Well, at least 20-30 seconds of it. After the part with the scowling faces, I closed my browser tab.

Listen ladies, I'm all for diversity in the workplace. I work in IT and often lament the lack of female workers. A couple years ago one of my female students asked me why there weren't more females in the field. I shrugged my shoulders and said 'I have no idea!" I would love to see more females taking positions in the tech field, from software to hardware.

Having said all that, the activist attitude of many of these women (including Lela in the video) is that they seem to almost ALWAYS demonize men in general for being pigs and cliquey in the game design industry. Hey, I understand that there are people like that all over. Sometimes it's almost embarrassing to see men who work in my field that have degenerated to lack of personal hygiene and even worse interpersonal skills and language. But to throw the baby out with the bath water in support of more female coders is just as bad - or worse since you recognize the failure in such generalizations - as a male spewing nonsense about a female being inferior or not part of the "club", whatever lame club that is.

The point is that just because a few (or even a lot) of a certain gender act a particular way, it doesn't mean we are ALL that way. I personally aspire to recognize and respect all people in the workplace and think of them based on their merit and ability to perform job functions rather than give special credibility to them based on gender, race, etc.

It hurts the rest of us guys who do act professionally and respectfully in the workplace when you make it look like we are all mad-faced chauvinists. So please, as you aspire to do more and become more and pursue your dreams, remember than there are a LOT of us guys who are great to work with and would be a good support to you as friends and colleagues.

-ix

  GameByNight

Columnist / Podcast Host

Joined: 9/08/09
Posts: 82

7/18/14 2:00:39 PM#8
Originally posted by adam_nox
We really need more females designing, writing, and managing big game development.  This focus on gender for the making of a small title is really the exact opposite of what would help gaming today.

Very few people hop into designing, writing, or managing AAA games without prior experience. Likewise, there is a disproportionately small amount of women in the development side of the games industry at the current time. This is exactly the kind of thing that will help gaming today and in the future.

Writer of The Tourist, Tripping the Rift, and co-writer of Player Versus Player
Host of Game On: ESP Edition
Blogger at GameByNight.com

  greenreen

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1445

7/18/14 2:38:07 PM#9

I figure I should chime in on this since I'm in IT and female.

I've been treated unfairly before - been put into a desk at the front of the office and just happened to look like a secretary to everyone entering the office. That was fairly off putting to have to get up from coding just to go find someone in the office instead of "making a strong feminine stance" for all the clients visiting who had no clue I wasn't the damned secretary or personal assistant of anyone in the office. 

Ask me why I work remotely now. That's part of it. The other part is that I'm not a social butterfly and frankly I found it annoying when people who come sit in my area trying to strike up conversation. I was trying to work.

I had to request raises over 5 years until I was a competitive wage after starting at a company as an unpaid intern for 6 mos. That company then lied when they laid me off and said that I quit to avoid paying me unemployment. No worries, I had data showing I hadn't quit and got my unemployment once I got a hearing from a judge. People who quit don't ask for work constantly. The work that was once mine was given to a man because "he had a family to support" was the excuse I was given later. I suppose my needs just weren't top of the line even though I had been there longer and this person was a bad worker who even got caught copy/pasting code then overcharging the company and lying about their hours. Plus they made the password for database or login the same for every client even our company account. How many times I railed against this and begged for unique passwords - I was always shot down just because he thought it made it easier to keep track of all the accounts. Then we got hacked.... did I get any credit for saying it was bad practice - no, in fact they still used the same passwords because derp derp, I'm but a bobble head. How could I possibly know anything about these... what do you call them... com pu tars... wow, how do you turn it on.

That's just glazing the surface.

Here's the point. It's an uphill battle in this industry, while I hope good things for these kids, if they aren't absolutely dedicated to being better than everyone around them and make themselves the guru around their circles, they can kiss a job in this industry goodbye. I do feel many times like I have to work twice as hard to get half the approval. Even the company I'm at now the only co-worker I've ever had that has been female has been in customer service.

It's a sausage factory and I think once I exposed that when my boss offered to take me to a meeting but I had to turn him down simply because being a female alone with a man can lead to gossip and he is married. His wife would already give me snide looks when he had closed the office door during meetings to drown out sound from the office. I would always try to keep the door open saying I was hot or something.

It's not just being female that can be a problem - being attractive (even mildly) and smart is always a threat to wives. We had many late nights working together and it was just work but I am extremely careful what I say to him. I don't make inappropriate jokes, I don't joke at all really. I dress in the office like a puritan. There would never be any cleavage coming from me.  I keep it strictly business and that is the only reason I have kept my job. Once I said something to my boss that needed to be said and his wife told him - why do you let her talk to you like that - he said, because it was true. She is gunning for my removal simply because she sees me as a potential love interest while I have no interest in her husband. Things like that you have to just experience to get it. I can't explain everything but the basic gist is - work harder and maybe you can make it but you WILL work harder from what I find to keep status. I have seen many other people try to outdo me at my job and they can't - I'm damn good at what I do because I constantly read on the subject and I have lots of interests that lead back to the subject so I get rounded experience. My boss often says - I hate when you are right. Well deal with it captain that's what you fucking pay me for is to be good is what I'm thinking. Sorry, if that hurts your feelings when I'm good at my job and you guessed wrong as the armchair dev.

This is the bravado that annoys me at times working with all men.

Lots of men don't like directions. They ask me to write things up in an email then don't read it and ask me again to repeat what I've already told them. Many times it leads to a gotomeeting just to explain what I wrote in the email because they want me to do it. It's not just insulting that you didn't read the email it took me 20 minutes to complete but it's doubly annoying when you don't just admit you wanted me to do it anyway because I'm the guru around the office.

The supposition that I "need" help. I recently worked on a project where I sent someone examples of code in about 5 places for what they needed to change. I also sent with them the guide for syntax from 2 sources. Instead of reading those they continually asked questions. How did you do this - how did you do that.  I answered all their questions even though I knew they could have found all the answers had they tried. I gave them about 10% of the project to do and the other 90% was on myself. I was leading this project. We finished up about the same time and they had the nerve to ask me if I needed help when I had about 4 areas left to edit. I wanted to scream out - you fucking idiot, i fed you all the answers, i did the majority of the work, and you think that IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII need help. You were a thorn in my side you slow bastard, that's why I didn't give you much to do to start with.

lol - it is what is - all men aren't dicks and all women don't like unicorns or pink soooo another day passes

 

 

 

  ryvendark

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/06/14
Posts: 142

7/18/14 3:09:07 PM#10
Originally posted by Scot

This is a game by girls called The Hole Story. Somebody needs to wake me up I thought it was April the 1st.

Title aside I hope they do well, but then I hope all teens do well in games, not just those society has decided we need to "do something about".

I checked the website, guys are not all scowling faces as the they portray us, if you are going to complain about stereotypes best not to perpetuate them, no?

My first thought was why should I care if a girl makes a game...how is that news ?

A bunch of teenagers doing it is, but how is a girl any more or less qualified to do it than a man ?  People trying too hard to break stereotypes often just create new ones for themselves.

  GameByNight

Columnist / Podcast Host

Joined: 9/08/09
Posts: 82

7/18/14 3:16:48 PM#11
Originally posted by ryvendark
Originally posted by Scot

This is a game by girls called The Hole Story. Somebody needs to wake me up I thought it was April the 1st.

Title aside I hope they do well, but then I hope all teens do well in games, not just those society has decided we need to "do something about".

I checked the website, guys are not all scowling faces as the they portray us, if you are going to complain about stereotypes best not to perpetuate them, no?

My first thought was why should I care if a girl makes a game...how is that news ?

A bunch of teenagers doing it is, but how is a girl any more or less qualified to do it than a man ?  People trying too hard to break stereotypes often just create new ones for themselves.

I can see what you're saying about the fear of perpetuating a stereotype but this is an issue that's only recently been receiving attention. To rectify it, there need to be concerted efforts such as these to draw attention but also promote change. I agree with your line of thinking on why this should be a story though. That's an inherent acceptance that, yes, of course men and women are equally capable. Why should it be news if a team of girls makes a video game? The fact is, it is newsworthy and that's what groups like GMG are working to overcome. 

Writer of The Tourist, Tripping the Rift, and co-writer of Player Versus Player
Host of Game On: ESP Edition
Blogger at GameByNight.com

  Sinaku

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 464

7/18/14 3:51:49 PM#12

I hope that they can meet their goal we need to encourage more bright minds in the future like this group, especially with how young they all are.    

  Ramonski7

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 2696

"A wise man has something to say, but a fool just has to say something."

7/18/14 4:10:11 PM#13

Next up...how blacks can actually use the internet for something other than commenting on YouTube songs and making stupid comments on Facebook. More at 11:00.  And before someone gets all anal about my comment, I'm 100% black. Oh and this explains why things are the way they are in the industry:

 

Diversity, in my opinion, will always net gains, in that it makes content creators more aware of when they are being exclusionary. I don't believe this is intentional, but people have a tendency to not look outside of their own demographic. When you are the one creating content, you will seek to add yourself, if only to feel like you are being represented as well.

 

That also goes for seeking out talent when putting together a team. You can read the rest here. So sure it starts somewhere but like the lady above stated, if you're trying to gear females to take up more industry real estate. Get them ready to deal with becoming infatuations, then tokens, then AA -like baggage and finally targets for workplace animosity. Nice fluff piece though. Gotta make sure my daughter reads this one, she's hellbent on getting in the industry...


"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  pein_carbon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/16/14
Posts: 8

7/18/14 6:21:16 PM#14

if i meet chrisptober i beat the crap out that noob.

my girlfriend and i have worked building some of the best games there is out there.

Here is the deal ladies and gentlemen having a dick or not means nothing.

it's all about taking the risk testing yourself to the limits the person that do most mistakes will have bigger chance to create something good.

 

 

note that nobody know how many black or white peoples making games... it's impossible...

because companies tend too hire outside peoples to support coding that they cannot do... so lets say there is a report of 50 peoples building the game well it could be 300 but they are just making some specific coding the rest of the team are unable to do...... so FAIL

like a old pal used to say in guild wars 2

WOW MASSIVE SHIT

 
 
  nerovipus32

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 2716

7/18/14 6:50:35 PM#15
We need more females in all areas of society. There is no balance if it's all just one gender. Men and Women compliment each other naturally.
  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10635

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

7/18/14 6:51:52 PM#16
Originally posted by ryvendark
Originally posted by Scot

This is a game by girls called The Hole Story. Somebody needs to wake me up I thought it was April the 1st.

Title aside I hope they do well, but then I hope all teens do well in games, not just those society has decided we need to "do something about".

I checked the website, guys are not all scowling faces as the they portray us, if you are going to complain about stereotypes best not to perpetuate them, no?

My first thought was why should I care if a girl makes a game...how is that news ?

A bunch of teenagers doing it is, but how is a girl any more or less qualified to do it than a man ?  People trying too hard to break stereotypes often just create new ones for themselves.

 

This would be an awesome attitude if we were all on some idealized world where people actually were equal, or could depend on their talent to get ahead.

 

Anyway, I think it's great that teenagers, girls or anyone else who wants to make an RPG actually does it, instead of coming to internet forums and complaining about what's wrong with games.

 

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Bolthar

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/30/11
Posts: 53

7/18/14 7:03:31 PM#17

I don't understand why this is Girls Make Games is even news. Boys and girls can both do gaming concepts, art, coding, and anything else to do with computing and developing. Not to mention I saw the video with the snip-it and it is not as though they did anything groundbreaking. If this same thing was boys doing it this would be a non story. I applaud the for doing it... but newsworthy? I fail to see the why of this being news.

This is right up there with the woman who posted about the fact Thor is now to be a woman and she was putting down all the male posters and said it was about time they made a female superhero for girls to look up to. When I told her about the plethora of female superheroes already out there (Dazzler, Jean Grey (Phoenix), Wonder Woman, Aurora, Kitty Pride, Darkstar, Invisible Woman, Polaris, and the list goes on) I became the bad guy for indicating there is already a number of strong female role models out there.

I guess I am just a bit too progressive thinking that boys and girls can do similar tasks and its not really a big deal...

  sunandshadow

Elite Member

Joined: 12/05/13
Posts: 635

7/18/14 9:12:09 PM#18
I get frustrated that teenagers get support like this that they're really too young for - not ready to take full advantage of it yet, and unless it's during the summer it's probably even distracting them from their schoolwork.  Where are the programs to help adult women get into making games?  And local to me there are a bunch of programs for young writers, young painters, which adults are excluded from, and there's no comparable program for adults.  There seems to be a cultural prejudice that adults are too old to deserve any kind of special social support unless their life is officially a disaster in some way.
  Solar_Prophet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/10/13
Posts: 641

7/18/14 10:37:49 PM#19
Originally posted by greenreen

I figure I should chime in on this since I'm in IT and female.

I've been treated unfairly before - been put into a desk at the front of the office and just happened to look like a secretary to everyone entering the office. That was fairly off putting to have to get up from coding just to go find someone in the office instead of "making a strong feminine stance" for all the clients visiting who had no clue I wasn't the damned secretary or personal assistant of anyone in the office. 

So, you're blaming sexism for the fact that you're being self-conscious about where your desk is. Hate to break it to you, but anybody in that spot probably would have gotten hassled like that.

Ask me why I work remotely now. That's part of it. The other part is that I'm not a social butterfly and frankly I found it annoying when people who come sit in my area trying to strike up conversation. I was trying to work.

Unwanted people attempting to engage you in unwanted conversation happens to everybody.

I had to request raises over 5 years until I was a competitive wage after starting at a company as an unpaid intern for 6 mos. Yes, it's called 'working your way up the ladder'. Everybody has to do that.

That company then lied when they laid me off and said that I quit to avoid paying me unemployment. Lots of companies do that. Your gender has nothing to do with the fact that they're dishonest.

No worries, I had data showing I hadn't quit and got my unemployment once I got a hearing from a judge. People who quit don't ask for work constantly. The work that was once mine was given to a man because "he had a family to support" was the excuse I was given later. I suppose my needs just weren't top of the line even though I had been there longer and this person was a bad worker who even got caught copy/pasting code then overcharging the company and lying about their hours. Plus they made the password for database or login the same for every client even our company account. How many times I railed against this and begged for unique passwords - I was always shot down just because he thought it made it easier to keep track of all the accounts. Then we got hacked.... did I get any credit for saying it was bad practice - no, in fact they still used the same passwords because derp derp, I'm but a bobble head. How could I possibly know anything about these... what do you call them... com pu tars... wow, how do you turn it on. Okay, just stop. None of this has anything to do with the fact that you're a woman. Plenty of idiots in the workplace don't take criticism from others well, and are too proud to admit when somebody else was right.

That's just glazing the surface. Uh huh. Sure.

Here's the point. It's an uphill battle in this industry, while I hope good things for these kids, if they aren't absolutely dedicated to being better than everyone around them and make themselves the guru around their circles, they can kiss a job in this industry goodbye. I do feel many times like I have to work twice as hard to get half the approval. Even the company I'm at now the only co-worker I've ever had that has been female has been in customer service. I can't imagine why a company would show favoritism toward people who work hard and show dedication to them.

It's a sausage factory and I think once I exposed that when my boss offered to take me to a meeting but I had to turn him down simply because being a female alone with a man can lead to gossip and he is married. His wife would already give me snide looks when he had closed the office door during meetings to drown out sound from the office. I would always try to keep the door open saying I was hot or something. So basically you let your own paranoia and fear of 'gossip' drive your actions. Protip: Professionals, true professionals, don't give a crap about gossip.

It's not just being female that can be a problem - being attractive (even mildly) and smart is always a threat to wives. We had many late nights working together and it was just work but I am extremely careful what I say to him. I don't make inappropriate jokes, I don't joke at all really. I dress in the office like a puritan. There would never be any cleavage coming from me.  I keep it strictly business and that is the only reason I have kept my job. Once I said something to my boss that needed to be said and his wife told him - why do you let her talk to you like that - he said, because it was true. She is gunning for my removal simply because she sees me as a potential love interest while I have no interest in her husband. So there's no actual sexism going on here, you're just overly paranoid about the boss' wife's opinion of you. Furthermore, sounds like you act like a robot at work which, in all honesty, can make quite a few people uncomfortable.

Things like that you have to just experience to get it. I can't explain everything but the basic gist is - work harder and maybe you can make it but you WILL work harder from what I find to keep status. I have seen many other people try to outdo me at my job and they can't - I'm damn good at what I do because I constantly read on the subject and I have lots of interests that lead back to the subject so I get rounded experience. My boss often says - I hate when you are right. Well deal with it captain that's what you fucking pay me for is to be good is what I'm thinking. Sorry, if that hurts your feelings when I'm good at my job and you guessed wrong as the armchair dev. And now you're being incredibly arrogant and cocky (or would that be 'vagina-ey'?) about your knowledge, and talking down the guy because he said something which was probably meant to be taken facetiously in the first place. If anything, you're the one demonstrating sexism here.

This is the bravado that annoys me at times working with all men. Aaand there we go, full on sexist feminazi rhetoric. Can't say I'm surprised.

Lots of men don't like directions. They ask me to write things up in an email then don't read it and ask me again to repeat what I've already told them. Many times it leads to a gotomeeting just to explain what I wrote in the email because they want me to do it. It's not just insulting that you didn't read the email it took me 20 minutes to complete but it's doubly annoying when you don't just admit you wanted me to do it anyway because I'm the guru around the office. Not exclusive to men in the slightest. I've worked with plenty of people like that of BOTH genders.

The supposition that I "need" help. I recently worked on a project where I sent someone examples of code in about 5 places for what they needed to change. I also sent with them the guide for syntax from 2 sources. Instead of reading those they continually asked questions. How did you do this - how did you do that.  I answered all their questions even though I knew they could have found all the answers had they tried. I gave them about 10% of the project to do and the other 90% was on myself. I was leading this project. We finished up about the same time and they had the nerve to ask me if I needed help when I had about 4 areas left to edit. I wanted to scream out - you fucking idiot, i fed you all the answers, i did the majority of the work, and you think that IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII need help. You were a thorn in my side you slow bastard, that's why I didn't give you much to do to start with. Again, not at all gender specific. I've heard countless stories of this type of behavior from many, many people.

lol - it is what is - all men aren't dicks and all women don't like unicorns or pink soooo another day passes

 "This is the bravado that annoys me at times working with all men." - So, you didn't say this three paragraphs up?

 

 

So in the end, this whole ridiculous rant not only fails to prove the existence of sexism in the industry, but quite honestly makes you come off as quite a bitter, hostile, narcissistic person who sees 'sexism' in just about any and all unfavorable workplace conditions.

It seems to me that the 'mistreatment' you've suffered is either falsely attributed to sexism, or perhaps outright fabricated.

The only sexism in your story is that which was demonstrated by yourself. Not that I'm surprised. That's what women like you do; if things don't go your way, it's all because of sexism. Note the emphasized part, because I'm sure somebody will come along and accuse me of blanket statements against all women if I don't immediately point out that I'm merely referring to a specific subgroup.

Furthermore, I'm neither saying nor implying that sexism in the workplace doesn't happen at all, I'm merely pointing out that in this case, and plenty of other cases, there is little to no evidence to support the idea that sexism is or was involved.

Today's message is brought to you by the U.S. Department of Education! Making our children more stupid since 1979!

  LordZeik

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/17/08
Posts: 185

7/18/14 11:03:27 PM#20
I applaud the fact that a group of youngsters made this game. Although, that's where it stops. The whole perspective makes it seem like this was the very first time women anywhere sat down and made an rpg.... People have to overcome adversity everyday. Race,gender,ailments and so forth. If we started kickstarters and workshops for every one of these unpleasant scenarios we'd all be bankrupt. Stuff happens..... These girls should just be about the work itself instead of trying to work an angle. Waiting for the day we get a spinoff channel of lifetime. Something along the lines of videotime. A channel for women in the gaming industry.
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