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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » A true sandbox FFA PVP MMORPG can only survive if the "carebears" stays.

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211 posts found
  Torgrim

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/15/05
Posts: 2179

 
OP  7/13/14 4:36:32 PM#1

Over the years some people have asked for a true sandbox game with FFA PVP in a fantasy setting, these PVPers want to gank how they please they want to wreck havoc without any form punishment, and the same people ask why these games cant grow and flurish.

Well I hate to say it, you need the PVE crowd to get this rocket of the ground, if the game is mostly PVP based well then you get same kind of people you are, and the game turns into a somewhat hardcore niche PVP battleground MMO with low population.

This chewed old mantra that these game developers of these games says " the gameworld is open for you, do what you like, build, craft, explore,war," yadda yadda yadda, always turns out to be a big fat gankfest.

A good and solid PVE system with PVP rules pretty much like IRL makes the PVEer stay, look at EVE true It's still niche but IMO It's beacuse It's set in space wich alot of people dont like but CCP made a good balance.

A good and sound PVE foundation with plenty of things to do as a PVEr will make a good and fun FFA PVP game, Ultima Online started it but sadly along the way, something happend and the game developers forgot the foundation of a good balanced game.

PVE crowd are the key for this not the problem.

Just my 2 cents on the matter, just needed to get this down :)

 

If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2864

7/13/14 4:41:18 PM#2

This issue with most PvP MMO's is the community. They're most often vile.

It's a niche I tried to get into but I could never get past the horrid community I had to play with.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  TechnoMonkey

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/07/10
Posts: 84

7/13/14 4:42:40 PM#3

EVE online is a true FFA Sandbox game that has been sustainable for many years... it does NOT have a "PVE base" and it's the main example as to why your premise is wrong. I'm sick of PVEer acting like the sacred overlords of MMOs. You guys just don't GET open world PVP and you should stop trying to shape every MMO out there to YOUR needs. There's plenty of carebear games.

  Torgrim

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/15/05
Posts: 2179

 
OP  7/13/14 4:45:13 PM#4
Originally posted by TechnoMonkey

EVE online is a true FFA Sandbox game that has been sustainable for many years... it does NOT have a "PVE base" and it's the main example as to why your premise is wrong. I'm sick of PVEer acting like the sacred overlords of MMOs. You guys just don't GET open world PVP and you should stop trying to shape every MMO out there to YOUR needs. There's plenty of carebear games.

 

I've been playing EVE on and off since may 2003 and you saying the bulck of EVE population are PVPer?

 

If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  DamonVile

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4909

7/13/14 4:50:23 PM#5

Eve has no PvE players ? I didn't know you could play for almost a decade never pvping and still consider yourself a pvp'er.

Eve did something no other ffa game did. They made the risk out weigh the reward for ganking in large areas of the game. That let the pve players have an area to play in without constantly being killed by idiots so they stayed in the game. So pretty much what the op said is true.

  flizzer

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/10/12
Posts: 1356

7/13/14 4:52:17 PM#6
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989

This issue with most PvP MMO's is the community. They're most often vile.

It's a niche I tried to get into but I could never get past the horrid community I had to play with.

I would have to agree with this.  The bottom feeders are usually found in these type of games and one of the reasons I try to avoid them.  

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4813

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

7/13/14 4:56:46 PM#7
Originally posted by Torgrim
Originally posted by TechnoMonkey

EVE online is a true FFA Sandbox game that has been sustainable for many years... it does NOT have a "PVE base" and it's the main example as to why your premise is wrong. I'm sick of PVEer acting like the sacred overlords of MMOs. You guys just don't GET open world PVP and you should stop trying to shape every MMO out there to YOUR needs. There's plenty of carebear games.

 

I've been playing EVE on and off since may 2003 and you saying the bulck of EVE population are PVPer?

 

in a themepark you can be a PvE'er or a PvP'er.

 

in a sandbox you're more likely x% PvE y% PvP z%else.

 

So yes, the majority of players have an y-component.

  Braindome

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/06/11
Posts: 619

7/13/14 5:05:07 PM#8

Agreed, the PvE elements are what keep people around and EVE Online is the best example, plenty ways to live and survive without even engaging in pvp....though I personally don't like EVE myself cause of the being a ship thing and all.

The PvP always needs to be co-existent and anytime that line is crossed that player is considered an outlaw, just like how you don't cross certain sectors in EVE space. It's nice when PvP and PvE can both exist this way but the core is always PvE, otherwise like you said it turns into an arena game and content players will leave.

Developers just have to hit that magical balance. Darkfall comes close but the penalties are too harsh. I swear if I could have my own protected house and pvp wasn't EVERYWHERE in that game I would play it, course their PvE content is quite lacking in general.

Like x 56

  nomotag

Novice Member

Joined: 5/13/14
Posts: 102

7/13/14 5:37:22 PM#9
I thought we already knew this? Actually this has been know sense the days of muds. There was a study and everything. You can't run a pure PvP game because the Pkers need people to Pk. In adation to the PvP you need to include carebare tasks to keep the bunk of the players around.
  Tolmos

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/26/10
Posts: 132

7/13/14 5:38:13 PM#10
Originally posted by TechnoMonkey

EVE online is a true FFA Sandbox game that has been sustainable for many years... it does NOT have a "PVE base" and it's the main example as to why your premise is wrong. I'm sick of PVEer acting like the sacred overlords of MMOs. You guys just don't GET open world PVP and you should stop trying to shape every MMO out there to YOUR needs. There's plenty of carebear games.

We must talking about 2 different EVE Onlines, because the one that I play (50 mil SP atm) has, year after year, had the majority of players cowering in high sec away from the fighting, with all of us desperately trying to convince said carebears to come out to null sec to play.

http://imgur.com/a/kU0qS
Players of Balmung- a compilation of different characters I've come across during my adventures in FFXIV ARR.

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4813

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

7/13/14 5:40:27 PM#11
Originally posted by Braindome

Agreed, the PvE elements are what keep people around and EVE Online is the best example, plenty ways to live and survive without even engaging in pvp....though I personally don't like EVE myself cause of the being a ship thing and all.

The PvP always needs to be co-existent and anytime that line is crossed that player is considered an outlaw, just like how you don't cross certain sectors in EVE space. It's nice when PvP and PvE can both exist this way but the core is always PvE, otherwise like you said it turns into an arena game and content players will leave.

Developers just have to hit that magical balance. Darkfall comes close but the penalties are too harsh. I swear if I could have my own protected house and pvp wasn't EVERYWHERE in that game I would play it, course their PvE content is quite lacking in general.

EVE's pve is also very weak.

 

It's EVE's crafting that is strong. Which of course is pve-tied.

 

FFA PVP implies posession loss. This is balanced by posession gain-aka crafting.

 

the creation-destruction cycle is key here.

  Tolmos

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/26/10
Posts: 132

7/13/14 5:54:18 PM#12

Part of the problem is that FFA pvp games take it too far, or have no purpose at all. There's rarely an in between.

One of the most balanced systems that I saw was that, when you died, your inventory dropped. Not your gear, or what you are wearing- just your inventory; whatever you picked up since the last time you banked. This kept you constantly on your toes.

For me, I have a harder time getting attached to a character with systems like Darkfall, where death means losing EVERYTHING. Having to live by the Ultima Online motto "Carry only what you can afford to lose" is, to me, more enjoyable when that pertains only to my inventory. When it takes my armor into account too, I find that it not only makes my own gameplay tough, but puts smaller guilds at a distinct disadvantage against larger ones. The bigger one is, the more they can afford to outfit their people with the best armor, that's ok to be thrown away. Little guilds? Toss on some rags, chums, cause we can't afford for you to lose the nice stuff!

Secondly, a "track" system- something to tell you that an enemy is within range. This gives players (who are paying attention to their track) a chance to do something about it, whether that means preparing for the death that is coming, running like hell or call for backup.

Combined, these made PvE a far more acceptable thing. They weren't just sheep waiting for us PvPers to nom nom nom on them- they had a utility to give them as much of an edge as we had, turning the hunted into the hunter (and making my PvP experience far more enjoyable than just killing a sitting target or a scared, flustered farmer) and made it so that their deaths (or mine) were lucrative to the victor, but not so devastating that it lead to excessive rage quits.

http://imgur.com/a/kU0qS
Players of Balmung- a compilation of different characters I've come across during my adventures in FFXIV ARR.

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2539

World > Quest Progression

7/13/14 6:06:59 PM#13
As long as there is a purpose/reason to PvP or PvE and the game world is big enough I can't see why having both systems in one MMO can't work.  I've heard the argument that it won't work due to one system getting more attention but I simply don't buy it.  If there are equal areas that are FFA or closed to PvP spread out in the world, such as bleed areas between regions/factions, there would be enough for all.  That way one play style doesn't have to suffer for another.  I think the bigger problem in suggesting the idea are the players themselves.  Either PvE players can't stand that they can't go anywhere they want or PvP players can't stand they can't attack everyone because it limits their freedom.
  Tolmos

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/26/10
Posts: 132

7/13/14 6:14:14 PM#14
Originally posted by Aelious
Either PvE players can't stand that they can't go anywhere they want or PvP players can't stand they can't attack everyone because it limits their freedom.

In my experience, I have found it to be something completely different.

What I've seen is that the problem is usually

A) In games, that try to reward players in PvP zones, in order to add incentives for going out there and thus help bolster the PvP population, PvE players feel coerced into going into those FFA zones and get upset. ESPECIALLY if there is a loss system when you die.

B) In games that don't add heavy incentives to go into PvP zones, like EVE Online, the vast majority of people end up hanging out in the safe zones and the PvP zones become difficult to find combat in. In these situations, the PvE players are happy but the PvP players can spend hours roaming and find no one to fight. It's gets lonely in PvP zones in these types of games.

It is, unfortunately, a difficult thing to balance.

http://imgur.com/a/kU0qS
Players of Balmung- a compilation of different characters I've come across during my adventures in FFXIV ARR.

  greenreen

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1510

7/13/14 6:39:32 PM#15

It's true.

I recently left Darkfall and a few people started to say bye to me in the general chat when I left. The only thing that ran through my mind at that moment was - You need me, I don't need you so I closed the client immediately.

I helped their new ppl and answered questions over and over which were repetitive for nothing in return but trying to build a community. I put goods on the auction house for ppl to use at decent prices. I never moaned once to anyone who attacked me in the wild though it put me behind. I never whispered them and told them what a piece of shit they were to take something instead of earning it.

I still think that it's their loss when I left. I took one less person to gank out of their world. They offered me nothing in return to stay because I was trying to be in a community which didn't want one. Now I get to find another place to be involved in a community while they will only continue to drive people away from them and now even I'm not around to answer questions for them keeping more ppl around. 

I don't really consider myself a carebear though. I'll PVP like a maniac but I can't stand unfair fights and I'm not into jumping people at a weak moment like when they are fighting mobs. I don't feel like I need that advantage because I know how to play these games. Many people in that game need that advantage to play and feeding the ego of the "bad" isn't a prize.

That game was the third time I gave a free for all PVP game a chance. I think that what pisses me off most about them is that they are a microcosm of reality. Like Diogenes I'm seeking that honest man. When the rules are removed and you are allowed to act as your character dictates, I don't like that so many humans only seek to ruin another for personal gain. It's not the loss of pixels that piss me off, it's knowing that without x and laws people are freaking animals and though they won't admit that they need a guiding hand to smack theirs when they treat other humans wrong because they lack self control when they can rise while pushing another fellow human in the mud, they exhibit this behavior repeatedly each place I encounter the scenario. I don't like that the majority of humans NEED eternal or mortal punishment to act right. You see, doing the right thing when no one sees it is big for me. In my younger days I imagined anarchy and I expected the cream to rise to lead a nation of people who didn't need someone to tell them right from wrong. I see now that it was a true pipe dream. The majority of people are so enraptured by selfies and personal gain that they can't get beyond the thought that someone earned something they can't have because they won't work hard enough. It's all a mirror on society to be in those environments and experience human depravity. How are we ever going to populate new planets - visit first to build prisons before the populations come? This human condition is really stifling our progress. I don't like it - I don't like it all.

Reminds me of the tinman. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BksJ99wIuCw

  syntax.error

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/27/04
Posts: 2982

C64 Cracked Warez Intros FTW

7/13/14 6:58:08 PM#16

The day where a developer makes a game that a PvE player loves to log into as well as a PvP player, your mmorpg will be making billions, however we all are still waiting for this game to arrive.

  Azaqin

Novice Member

Joined: 6/30/12
Posts: 65

7/13/14 7:22:07 PM#17

I've never really gotten why so many hard-core PvPers hold and express such utter contempt towards anyone who does not want to PvP. And conversely, I've never really gotten why so many die-hard anti-PvPers hold and express such utter hatred towards those who do. Not every PvEer is a "carebear" who wants "every game to be a PvE themepark," and not every PvPer is a "vile douchebag" who just wants to "gank everyone in sight."

 

I constantly see PvPers complaining that no games are made for them, and I've seen countless angry threads and comments along the lines of "you carebears have so many games of your own, why do you want to take [insert game in development here] away from us?!?!" The truth is that the PvEers are doing nothing of the kind. PvE just happens to be where the money is in MOGs. And as another poster pointed out, a game with nothing but sandbox FFA PvP does stand a very large probability of becoming nothing but a non-stop gankfest.

 

I think the problem here, the reason so many people simply will not step foot out into those PvP zones, is not the fault of PvPers in general. It's the fault of the subset of PvPers that are only interested in the unfair fight. You know the ones, they're the ones on their max level toon hunting down the newbs because they think it's hilarious. They're the ones who want open-world, unrestricted PvP not because it offers a challenge, but because it gives them access to opponents so far under their threat level that it's pure griefing. There is a subset of the PvP crowd that doesn't seem to enjoy playing a game, they only seem to enjoy ruining a game for other people. It's this group that is driving potential combatants out of the PvP zones.

 

I played on the PvP server back in old DAOC. "Mordred." I didn't play on it for long. Not because I objected to the PvP, but because it was frankly impossible to even set foot out of the capital cities without being almost instantly ganked by someone just waiting there for that specific purpose. And these were not low-level toons, but geared-up, max level toons, mostly stealthers, who would simply one-shot anyone who came out with zero chance of avoiding it. That isn't a challenge and it isn't, at least in my opinion, remotely fun. The only thing it really accomplished was to de-populate the server faster than a concert where a classic band announces "here's something off the new album!"

 

Now, I hear people say, but FFA open world PvP is realistic! In the real world they don't have PvP blocks! Well, yeah, that's true. But I don't play games for realism of that kind. I play games to have fun, and getting smeared because you never had the slightest chance is not fun. I teach inner-city middle school, and the boys on the basketball team have this weird little mentality. They only like to play when they are crushing their opponents. Give them an actual challenge and they get pissed off and quit. The inevitable loss is always blamed on "cheating officials."  There is a subset of PvPers that have the same attitude. They don't want to win, they want to demolish you in the most humiliating fashion possible, against opponents that never had the slightest chance. It's sad in 12 year old boys, and it's sad in gamers, too.

 

Now, when I PvP, I go for the games that essentially start everyone on a fairly equal setting. That usually means FPSers or games like Team Fortress, Starcraft, and the like. When in MOGs, I really only PvP in games that have ranking systems or grouped battlegrounds that match you up with opponents that are in your threat level. If I go into a bg and you wipe the floor with me because you play your toon better than I do, or because you have figured out an awesome combination, I have nothing but respect for you. But when you just kill me because I am a gnat compared to your leveled-up, geared-up, buffed-up, grouped-up power? Nah.  Because when I PvP, I like to at least have a CHANCE of being victorious. Simply getting your tuchas handed to you by someone with more hit points in their little finger than you have in your entire body is just not fun.

 

 

TL;DR version: It's not the PvPers that are a problem in getting PvP games to be successful, it's the griefers. Most PvPers aren't griefers, but those who are drive away potential players.

  nomotag

Novice Member

Joined: 5/13/14
Posts: 102

7/13/14 7:34:26 PM#18
It's easy to see why carebears would dislike PKers. You know because the killing.
  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4813

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

7/13/14 7:40:54 PM#19
Originally posted by nomotag
It's easy to see why carebears would dislike PKers. You know because the killing.

at this very second there are tens of thousands of carebears living in nullsec space rented from PKers.

 

Do all carebears dislike all PKers?

  Quesa

Novice Member

Joined: 6/16/04
Posts: 1265

7/13/14 7:42:30 PM#20
Originally posted by TechnoMonkey

EVE online is a true FFA Sandbox game that has been sustainable for many years... it does NOT have a "PVE base" and it's the main example as to why your premise is wrong. I'm sick of PVEer acting like the sacred overlords of MMOs. You guys just don't GET open world PVP and you should stop trying to shape every MMO out there to YOUR needs. There's plenty of carebear games.

There is a significant PvE base.  I don't know what you're on about...

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