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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The state of MMOs 2014 - "A buffet for the masses".

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110 posts found
  doodphace

Elite Member

Joined: 6/19/12
Posts: 1523

7/11/14 5:35:44 PM#81
Originally posted by allday88

Well first I never claimed it Forbes did... you really should try and get a hold of them so you can move on.  And the last words on the link were "or more"  who knows how much that could be right?  Right? 

Forbes says between 200-300, and posts a link to its source. The source link states 200 million. You paste the soruce link 3 times in your quote of forbes, then go on to say yourself that dev costs were 300 million. Your explanation to me afterwards was that you "chose the higher number because its safe", now all of a sudden its forbes, and forbes alone that claimed 300 million? Forbes incorrectly stated 200-300....YOU said 300 (to be "safe", as you put it), yet the source link of 200, which you admit you never read,  was pasted by you, 3 times...

And I'M the one who went off the deep end? I just almsot gave myself a head ach explanaing your positions thus far. In any event, you now know that it was far less than 300, and GTAV is the most expensive game ever at 250. That in and of itself proves it was less than 250, yet you emphasize "Or more" to try and make it seem like much more....but who knows, right?

:-)

Again if you have an issue with what i quoted please contact forbes.  I am sure they will tell you to get bent.  Now the quote i made was before GTAV was released, so when you call forbes i wouldnt go after that  part they will really tell you to get bent.  

 

Wish i could say i am sorry you got this worked up over a quote but im really not, thats your proactive you can get upset over what ever you feel like.  Well make sure you come on back and let us know how your chat with Forbes went.  

I wont have to, they have already corrected their information about the SWTOR dev costs, but thanks for your concern ;-)

On a side note, if you would like some tips on researching current information on topics you would like to post facts on, inbox me, i'll gladly assist.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12308

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

7/11/14 8:26:32 PM#82
allday, you deserve a medal at this point. 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  User Deleted
7/11/14 9:11:42 PM#83

Dang....quite the volley...

  AIMonster

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/31/08
Posts: 2017

7/11/14 9:53:23 PM#84
Originally posted by allday88
Originally posted by AIMonster
Originally posted by allday88
Originally posted by AIMonster

I know I'm going a little offtopic here, but:

Why are some of you hating on indie games so much?  You can have your next triple A game like Call of Duty, and I'll continue enjoying games like Journey, Dungeon Defenders, Bastion, Transistor, Recettear, Amensia, Fez, LIMBO, World of Goo, Hotline Miami, etc.  As far as advertising and budget goes, when you are paying less than 10 developers to work on a game as opposed to 400+ you typically see in a modern triple A game, then you don't need to sell as many copies of a game so an advertising budget does not become as important.

I'm willing to bet that the average developer who worked on a game like Bastion made more per year than the average developer who worked on any of the huge triple A titles which is a better measurement of success than sheer number of copies sold.

There is no need to hate on indie titles.  Sure, there is a lot more crap out there (debatable though, as there is plenty of triple A shovelware too) than triple A titles, but that doesn't mean you don't get a few - well more than a few - gems every once in a while.  I play a lot of both triple A and indie titles, and one of my most anticipated titles this year is No Man's Sky which is an indie game as well as looking forward to a few others like Rime, Shiness, Chasm, and a few others.

Not sure where you got the information in red but you are way off...

 

http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/arey.shtml

 

Expectation for the average AAA team size next generation?
Around 120 people. Aren't we here already?

That's an article from 2005.  AAA budget games have gotten significantly larger.  Granted I was including publishers/QA, contract workers (such as voice actors), and basing it off MMOs mostly (which have significantly larger teams typically).  Even if the number if the 120 number is more accurate, it doesn't diminish the point I was trying to make.

Oh you took off what i was replying too...thats ok i will still post it.  

 

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/189893/Industry_in_flux_What_we_learned_from_Game_Developers_2012_Salary_Survey.php

 

Indies still struggling. Despite the fact that indie devs are receiving more attention than ever before, the average indie still isn't very well-compensated; individual indie developers averaged $23,130 (down $420 from 2011), and members of indie teams averaged $19,487.

 

Btw the average Dev is around $83K  so yeah indie devs do not make more the AAA devs.  

Keyword there is average.  I was referring to successful indie titles, like Supergiant Games with Bastion and Transistor.  Look at Notch and Minecraft too for the most extreme example.  They can certainly be lucrative for those that are breakout hits, and while those are few and far between, you do see more devs breaking away from larger game studios to work on chasing the dream.

You need to consider that most indie developers fall in the mobile apps (as well as some very low quality PC games) category and most barely make enough sales to even justify the effort (which is likely minimal compared to successful ones) so they bring down the average considerably for everyone.

Raptr link because it's the cool new trend:

  AIMonster

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/31/08
Posts: 2017

7/11/14 10:02:24 PM#85
Originally posted by allday88

Well glad you liked it...the poster i was replying to mentioned Indie Devs making more than AAA devs, he took it down before i could post but still thought it was a good article.  

What I said was:  I'm willing to bet that the average developer who worked on a game like Bastion made more per year than the average developer who worked on any of the huge triple A titles which is a better measurement of success than sheer number of copies sold."

I highlighted the important part there.  Like Bastion as in like some of the successful indie games I mentioned earlier as in Bastion, Transistor, Dungeon Defenders, Minecraft, Flower, Journey, Hotline Miami, Super Meatboy, etc.  In other words indie developers on a good indie team have the potential to earn more than a developer on a AAA team since they generally have higher stake in the company and reap more benefits from sales of a particular game.

Most indie developers make far less.  Some are even hobbyists that don't make any significant salary off their hobby so they would bring down the average on a survey.

Raptr link because it's the cool new trend:

  0effort

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/20/10
Posts: 104

 
OP  7/11/14 10:59:27 PM#86
Originally posted by kaiser3282
Originally posted by 0effort
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

a few things on this matter.

1. Gaming is an art form. Measuring the quality of Art by dollars sold is when not even factoring in the affects of advertising is...well...terrible.

2. Appealing to the masses is an element of the past. Its no longer a requirement to be successful. Now, good developers quit their jobs at the big firms and end up making MORE money as an indie then they would working for a AAA. This was not realistically as possible before digital distrubution became so wide spread. So now we are entering a phase where its easier for a small group of developers to focus on a small group of gamers and still make great money.

3. If you measure quality of game by the amount of things you can do (which in general is what I do) then indies come out on top by a long shot.

 

Anything good needs cash or some type of a strong long run investment . Some happened to be exceptions aka Minecraft and they made it through word of mouth. That does not mean Minecraft is the greatest sandbox construction game but Minecraft like World of Warcraft in that time filled a massive void. And as long as there is this massive void, there will be millions of players playing both of them.

In every crisis or stale period, there are opportunities that whoever is the fastest and the smarter hits gold. If we had Star Citizen the same time with EVE Online, EVE would be nothing than a major niche game. Some MMOrpgs are good at doing that - filling up a hole through a period of crisis or stale in the market. When things get better players will move on. 

Option is always good but when within any genre the minority dominates that is unhealthy. It is unhealthy because as soon as one MMOrpg fulfills the gap, the rest will get wiped, studios will close down, jobs will be lost and so on and so forth. And there are two huge gaps - making a complete MMOrpg in general and making great MMOrpg according to the theme. If right now someone released the closest thing to a Skyrim multiplayer, ESO Online would go bankrupt.

Look at ArcheAge. Is it a successful game so far? It is but it will never be a true sandbox game and it will never have millions of subscribers because it never had that intention, not by the developers, but by the other parties (publisher(s), higher ups, ect). Companies right now will not allow for complete MMOs to appear because there is no need to because there is not a good competitive market and there are way too many gaps. Most MMOs are being made out of "opportunitism" - to take advantage -  of a thirst of a niche MMO group. The hardcore Lineage-esque crowd will support ArcheAge until there is a better game than that.

That is the exact problem of this F2P culture - that as long as it exist, as long as there is no competition you will get unfinished products that cater to the "niche" and will do major updates every 3-5 years (i.e graphics update) because there is no need, no stress to improve when the market has not set a high bar. When the bar is low or average, the situation will not change unless someone steps up his game. That is why you will have ESO Online and SWOTOR being profitable as hell for many, and many years unless things progress.

It is just a bubble waiting to be burst.

 

 

The part in red is what i find the most amusing considering most F2P games in the past few years have actually done at least as good of a job, if not better, of pushing out updates such as new areas / content, new classes, new features, etc than nearly every P2P MMO.

The trend has become put out a hyped up P2P game, rake in the box sales and first few months of subs, then leave the game on life support with a skeleton crew who can barely even manage to implement bug fixes and sure as hell isnt going to actually add new content.

Just look at WAR. Big hype, big companies, lots of sales. 1 major content update (Land of the Dead) in its 1st year, then nothing (in fact they even removed content as well as cancelled content that was supposed to have been added in) for several years before shutting down. They never even managed to fix a ton of bugs that existed since launch.

Then you have both games that were built as F2P from scratch, or that have made the P2P > F2P conversion, who are putting out content updates every few months. PoE updating every few months, DDO (even after all these years)updating regularly, Rift with several minor updates as well as  full on expansion like updates. Those are just a few.

Of course there are a few exceptions, like FFXIV:ARR which has actually been doing well with releasing new content on a regular basis so far. But more and more games have been going the route of WAR. Hype up sales, promise future content to keep people subbed for a few extra months, then when players get sick of waiting for the content that never comes start laying off staff and put it on life support.

SWTOR, LOTRO, Neverwinter, ArchLord 2, Swordsman, Rift. Defiance, do what exactly better? 90% of F2P MMOs are purely garbage if you break them down into factors of visual, story, soundtrack, PVE, PVP, combat, animations, character customization, "sandbox" elements, voice acting, level and environment design and so on and so forth and if you take into account customer service(s) we might as well not even bother.

And regarding "updates" Guild Wars 2 holds the most idiotic and ridiculous number of insignificant updates. I was there for almost a year and it was always about "fixing" everything your grandmother can think of. Yet the combat system didn't become better, more enjoyable no matter how many updates they injected nor its world vs world setting either nor its story. In fact ESO does so much better job in WVW and it is laughable considering how much money ArenaNet have made so far. Arena promised a product that would be 100 times better than GW1 and it delivered of the easiest MMOrpgs that has no soul.  Same thing with Age of Wushu. It has made so much money again, so much money and yet it cannot even do an appropriate graphical update.

Mount & Blade and Dragon Nest, are "ok", might even give them "good" attempts but that is it. They will never attract millions of players because they don't deserve to attract millions of players. They are not that good and they do not want to be that good either. The intention of F2P MMOrpgs is not to make a great and complete MMOrpg experience but to cater to a niche, identify the whales and grab as much cash as possible because the standards are extremely low and they can flood the market just like that. That is why there is no loyalty from the playerbase. That is why they are not sub-based because they can never have many subs. There not again not that good.

You know what is a great example of a F2P MMOrpg? Check out Kingdom Under Fire II and search on youtube "Kingdom Under Fire II - AngryJoe's game of E3 2014". KUFII will have no issue attracting millions of players and it is a shame that it is F2P for its quality but I am glad it will come to the West early 2015. A good example might be as well Moonlight Blade which is a cross of Blade & Soul and Dynasty Warriors and looks promising so far.

I have no issue with indies per se or with niche markets. I have an issue when they dominate and they force the rest to play them due to lack of options and thus competition with really extremely low standards. That is a poor state. When the standard right now is to expect low population, average game, "niche market", unpolished games, mediocre customer service, pools of bots, goldsellers and spammers and hackers and generally a technical mess of lag and spikes that is wrong, just wrong.

Look at the state of MOBAs. Exact situation. Garbage everywhere because they think they can have a pie from League of Legends but the difference is that League of Legends has set the bar TOO HIGH to reach. You can't put it down now unless that market as well becomes stagnate, not-innovative and thus generic.

We need competition because competition drives quality. That is my argument and right now quality is secondary. If you see the MMOrpg genre evolving or progressing as a whole you might as well enlighten me. EVE Online would not have stepped up its game and plan a bigger future for its franchise/universe if there was no thread by Star Citzen. Without competition, there are no standards, everything goes, there are no expectations. The culture behind F2P is a backward step.

Why did Blizzard not release the next big "WoW"? Because it cannot. Blizzard is done. Not in financial terms but it cannot revive or revolutionize that genre. It is not the great Blizzard we group up with and that is fine but that does not mean it is alright and we should be fine with this whole situation.

It is like we have got fiber right now but 56k modems are dominating.

And the worst thing out of this is that if you want to play an sandbox game you are forced to play EVE Online regardless of how much you hate space simulators and combat but you will because you have no alternative.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19846

7/12/14 12:35:20 PM#87
Originally posted by AIMonster
 

Keyword there is average.  I was referring to successful indie titles, like Supergiant Games with Bastion and Transistor. 

For every successful indie, there are a thousand who failed.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19846

7/12/14 12:37:24 PM#88
Originally posted by 0effort

Why did Blizzard not release the next big "WoW"? Because it cannot. Blizzard is done. Not in financial terms but it cannot revive or revolutionize that genre. It is not the great Blizzard we group up with and that is fine but that does not mean it is alright and we should be fine with this whole situation.

 

Because they don't believe in classical MMO anymore? Look at their new games? A MOBA and a card game. I don't think they believe in the genre (aside from milking WOW) anymore.

Blizz is still great .. making great games ... just not MMORPGs anymore.

 

  loulaki

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/20/11
Posts: 810

7/12/14 6:51:13 PM#89
Originally posted by Foomerang

Its easy to spot a weak argument with the overuse of "we". Learn to speak for yourself.

this.

 

i totally disagree... also group finder isn't always a good mechanic... also you didn't mentioned BlackDesert online or the ArcheAge i see now on the advertisement.. you sound like the guy who's gf abandoned him, and he can't see anything positive just hatred...

  kresa3333

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/04/14
Posts: 62

7/13/14 4:01:46 AM#90

I agree that f2p buisness hurts the mmo industry at least for now.
I see alot of you spoke about advertising, i can say only one thing, we live in the era of the internet.
I can say for 99.9% that if you got a really great mmo in your hands you can advertise it and make it famous by yourself ( there are many free / cheap ways to achive that).
The internet spreads info around the world in a crazy speed.
Now it might not be as fast as an AAA company advertise but if the game is good overtime it will win.
The real problem with that is that well...there are no such mmo's yet i would say mostly because its a very expensive buisness , graphics, gameplay , engine etc.. all very expensive.

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

7/13/14 2:58:04 PM#91
Originally posted by 0effort

Why did Blizzard not release the next big "WoW"? Because it cannot. Blizzard is done. Not in financial terms but it cannot revive or revolutionize that genre. It is not the great Blizzard we group up with and that is fine but that does not mean it is alright and we should be fine with this whole situation.

WoW was a perfect storm, it came at just the right time and became super successful.  There will never be another MMO in history that has that kind of success.  We all need to stop pretending that there will ever be a WoW-killer that will come along and draw in millions of players.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  0effort

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/20/10
Posts: 104

 
OP  7/13/14 4:11:45 PM#92
Originally posted by loulaki
Originally posted by Foomerang

Its easy to spot a weak argument with the overuse of "we". Learn to speak for yourself.

this.

 

i totally disagree... also group finder isn't always a good mechanic... also you didn't mentioned BlackDesert online or the ArcheAge i see now on the advertisement.. you sound like the guy who's gf abandoned him, and he can't see anything positive just hatred...

The only worth F2P mentioning for PC is this and I will not say the name for suspense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIu8FwPAU4g

What about ArcheAge? They have done everything possible to limit its potential. Leveling in that game is superfast. I wonder if it will be as fast and as boring as it was with Guild Wars 2. They advertise it as the ultimate sandbox game with "dailies", "safezones" and other bullshit. There is already drama regarding LB and the P2W element. It used to be top five in Korean and now is where? 37+ and still dropping.

In fact, Hartsman said

[QUOTE] And for those who worry about the future of ArcheAge as possibly just a niche game here in the west, Hartsman left this thought: The game has already surpassed all the expectations, and he considers the game already a success. As he put it, "It doesn't need to become the number one game in the west to be a success for us." [/QUOTE]

So because Hartsman said so ArcheAge will not be a niche and it will have millions of players. Right. But the thing Hartsman said and Massively did not expand upon intentionally or not, is that it does not matter to them if the game will be niche because as long as they get money and lots of it, that all it matters.

If you want tab-targeting combat that is representative for 2014, youtube Blade & Soul.

I did not mention Black Desert Online because it has so much hype, its hype is greater than put together all the years of ArcheAge's advertisement. My assumption is that it is because of many GW2 players wanting to believe that this will be in a way what GW1 should have been. So personally I am very skeptical and the combat from some classes i.e Ranger is boring as hell so I will wait and see when I play it.

"Group finder isn't always a good mechanic" is this a joke post? You can't be serious.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19846

7/13/14 5:00:12 PM#93
Originally posted by Cephus404
 

WoW was a perfect storm, it came at just the right time and became super successful.  There will never be another MMO in history that has that kind of success.  We all need to stop pretending that there will ever be a WoW-killer that will come along and draw in millions of players.

League of Legends drew in more players than WoW.

 

  Tolmos

Novice Member

Joined: 8/26/10
Posts: 131

7/13/14 5:04:16 PM#94
Originally posted by 0effort

The only worth F2P mentioning for PC is this and I will not say the name for suspense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIu8FwPAU4g

Heh, I didn't even realize that Kingdom Under Fire 2 was an MMORPG. =D For some reason I thought it was more like Dark Souls.

 

Originally posted by 0effort
What about ArcheAge? They have done everything possible to limit its potential. Leveling in that game is superfast. I wonder if it will be as fast and as boring as it was with Guild Wars 2. 

Oddly enough, this makes me excited for the game. I love the system in GW2- I hit cap fast, and then spent 1,000+ hours exploring the world, doing PvP, crafting, going for legendaries, etc etc. And never had to worry about my XP bar, or not being strong enough to fight the monsters that were waiting for me. As long as my personal player skill and ability to dodge were on par with what was expected, the world was open to me.

If this is what AA is like, you've just sold me on the game lol

http://imgur.com/a/kU0qS
Players of Balmung- a compilation of different characters I've come across during my adventures in FFXIV ARR.

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5252

7/14/14 3:51:38 AM#95

The OP has hit a nail on the head that has been hit on these boards many times before.

We are served a fast food buffet that ends with us having a rather queasy feeling. Truly a buffet of the masses as it is the desire for maximum sales that gives the menu its banality.

Style over substance has won the day, our content locusts eat their way through each offering before swarming to the next one. They sustain this cycle and for every one that leaves with indigestion there is a young grub waiting to be old enough to join the swarm.

  Azaron_Nightblade

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/12
Posts: 1056

7/14/14 8:41:43 AM#96
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Cephus404
 

WoW was a perfect storm, it came at just the right time and became super successful.  There will never be another MMO in history that has that kind of success.  We all need to stop pretending that there will ever be a WoW-killer that will come along and draw in millions of players.

League of Legends drew in more players than WoW.

 

So did World of Tanks, Battlefield and Tetris. 

Apples and oranges.

My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19846

7/14/14 1:42:37 PM#97
Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Cephus404
 

WoW was a perfect storm, it came at just the right time and became super successful.  There will never be another MMO in history that has that kind of success.  We all need to stop pretending that there will ever be a WoW-killer that will come along and draw in millions of players.

League of Legends drew in more players than WoW.

 

So did World of Tanks, Battlefield and Tetris. 

Apples and oranges.

So? Apples are fruit. Oranges are fruit. Sometime I have to choose between eating an apple or an orange.

Not unlike I have to decide to play a MMORPG (say Marvel Heroes) and a shooter (say Sniper Elite 3).

 

  MadFrenchie

Elite Member

Joined: 5/02/14
Posts: 297

7/14/14 1:47:51 PM#98
I don't see the apple farmer sweating orange sales.

Nor do I see Blizzard sweating the new Battlefield release.
  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5322

7/14/14 1:54:50 PM#99
as far as I am concerned single players games, multiplayer games and MMOs are strikingly similar that they all belong in the same fruit basket.

Correlation does not imply causation

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19846

7/14/14 3:52:16 PM#100
Originally posted by MadFrenchie
I don't see the apple farmer sweating orange sales.

Nor do I see Blizzard sweating the new Battlefield release.

But i see Blizz sweating MOBA releases, card game releases, and RTS releases.

 

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