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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The state of MMOs 2014 - "A buffet for the masses".

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110 posts found
  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

7/11/14 4:38:17 PM#41
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
 

here at MMORPG forums 'good' 'better' and 'best' is SUBJECTIVE. and with that to me indie games are considerably better than AAA and I have played both. 

I have noticed in these debates about indie vs AAA that nobody seems to want to ask WHY I think indies are better. Are people afraid of the feature list?

Everywhere in world good, better best is subjective....not just here. Your issue seems to be that you can't handle other people not agreeing with you. That somehow one opinion can be more right than anothers and that there are facts to prove it right.

Your feature list would be a list of things important to you. If someone didn't care about the items on it or listed them in a different priority they probably wont agree with you.

 

no...people are stating that AAA are better as a fact and are wanting me to say that me thinking indies is better is subjective.

that is my core issue here.

if everyone asked of themselves the same parameters they asked of me I would be very happy

 

Correlation does not imply causation

  DamonVile

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4909

7/11/14 4:42:13 PM#42
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
 

here at MMORPG forums 'good' 'better' and 'best' is SUBJECTIVE. and with that to me indie games are considerably better than AAA and I have played both. 

I have noticed in these debates about indie vs AAA that nobody seems to want to ask WHY I think indies are better. Are people afraid of the feature list?

Everywhere in world good, better best is subjective....not just here. Your issue seems to be that you can't handle other people not agreeing with you. That somehow one opinion can be more right than anothers and that there are facts to prove it right.

Your feature list would be a list of things important to you. If someone didn't care about the items on it or listed them in a different priority they probably wont agree with you.

 

no...people are stating that AAA are better as a fact and are wanting me to say that me thinking indies is better is subjective.

that is my core issue here.

if everyone asked of themselves the same parameters they asked of me I would be very happy

 

There are no facts that would let them win. You trying to argue it with them make you lose.

  Shaigh

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/07/13
Posts: 332

7/11/14 4:42:45 PM#43

F2P popularity has nothing to do with the state of MMO's in 2014. The reason for this is games like tera, archeage, tsw, rift and swtor all started as P2P, f2p games like planetside 2 and neverwinter, and b2p like gw2 started its development before f2p became a big deal, and ff14arr, wildstar and elder scrolls online were always intended as P2P.

 

It wont be until games like eq next, the repopulation and wh40k:EC and many others gets released that we will see the real effect that f2p popularity has on game design. However, when it comes to eq next its gw2 that has the biggest impact on the games design.

  Sukiyaki

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/14/09
Posts: 1336

7/11/14 4:42:50 PM#44
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Sukiyaki
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

lol..

now that logic was funny.

why do they not sell more? BECAUSE THE MASSES DONT KNOW THEY EXIST..

why do the masses not know they exist? BECAUSE THEY DONT ADVERTISE.

For AAA games advertising is more important than the game itself. this is why they spend more money on adds then they do game development. Advertising makes a huge difference.

This is wrong. Most of the past 10 years AAA MMO developer/publisher only spend a fraction on marketing compared to their development budget. Usually it equals to 10 - 30% of the game development budget ( as a seperate budget not taken from the dev budget). Yes 10-30% is in fact  already quite a lot to market an AAA MMO with dev bugdets around 30-50 Million $US and reaching questionable levels but its far from as much as development costs. Of course it feels wasteful to the gamer, but it works and finally it will probably benefit you as a player as well if you game is doing well thanks to some ads luring in new player.

The widespread impression of a much bolder sums spent on marketing such as yours exists because in the West the the few dominant big publishing houses going for the massmarket are spending ridiculously large sums on marketing.

Blizzard is one of these companies who despite the equaly bold denial of fanbase rely very much on the constant massive and forced hype going on around their products reaching far beyond your little mmo fansites beta invite ad and their marketing budget tends to equal 80-90% of their development budget going up and down with new releases. EA is another hype machine with similar figures on the balance sheets. These hype machines are however just bad apples and exceptions. Not every burger selling restaurant is rolling out ads on the Time Square and Piccadilly Circus.

proove it

I point at the public financial reports released by almost every relevant AAA developer including private held ones like CCCP of the past 10 years. Usually found after 3 second of typing  "company name + IR" into google, click on the first or second result and pick a report and then scrolling to the cost of sales or expenses page.

The first place where everyone would look if he honestly would bother about these figures. Those arent the type of figures you discuss. You either make them up or you know where they are printed black on white.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

7/11/14 4:47:56 PM#45
Originally posted by Sukiyaki
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Sukiyaki
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

lol..

now that logic was funny.

why do they not sell more? BECAUSE THE MASSES DONT KNOW THEY EXIST..

why do the masses not know they exist? BECAUSE THEY DONT ADVERTISE.

For AAA games advertising is more important than the game itself. this is why they spend more money on adds then they do game development. Advertising makes a huge difference.

This is wrong. Most of the past 10 years AAA MMO developer/publisher only spend a fraction on marketing compared to their development budget. Usually it equals to 10 - 30% of the game development budget ( as a seperate budget not taken from the dev budget). Yes 10-30% is in fact  already quite a lot to market an AAA MMO with dev bugdets around 30-50 Million $US and reaching questionable levels but its far from as much as development costs. Of course it feels wasteful to the gamer, but it works and finally it will probably benefit you as a player as well if you game is doing well thanks to some ads luring in new player.

The widespread impression of a much bolder sums spent on marketing such as yours exists because in the West the the few dominant big publishing houses going for the massmarket are spending ridiculously large sums on marketing.

Blizzard is one of these companies who despite the equaly bold denial of fanbase rely very much on the constant massive and forced hype going on around their products reaching far beyond your little mmo fansites beta invite ad and their marketing budget tends to equal 80-90% of their development budget going up and down with new releases. EA is another hype machine with similar figures on the balance sheets. These hype machines are however just bad apples and exceptions. Not every burger selling restaurant is rolling out ads on the Time Square and Piccadilly Circus.

proove it

I point at the public financial reports released by almost every relevant AAA developer including private held ones like CCCP of the past 10 years. Usually found after 3 second of typing  "company name + IR" into google, click on the first or second result and pick a report and then scrolling to the cost of sales or expenses page.

The first place where everyone would look if he honestly would bother about these figures.

please provide links of marketing budgets compared to dev budgets. I will provide you with an easy hint.

Look up GTA 5 and post the link proving that its around 10-30%

Correlation does not imply causation

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

7/11/14 4:51:07 PM#46
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Once again I'm saying there is not a linear relationship between the number of people, the quality and the revenue.

Bad analogies should not be discussed

its your choice to believe that a team of 1 vs a team of 20 doesnt impact the outcome. Its your choice to not want to talk about it.

Correlation does not imply causation

  AIMonster

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/31/08
Posts: 2023

7/11/14 4:51:11 PM#47
Originally posted by allday88
Originally posted by AIMonster

I know I'm going a little offtopic here, but:

Why are some of you hating on indie games so much?  You can have your next triple A game like Call of Duty, and I'll continue enjoying games like Journey, Dungeon Defenders, Bastion, Transistor, Recettear, Amensia, Fez, LIMBO, World of Goo, Hotline Miami, etc.  As far as advertising and budget goes, when you are paying less than 10 developers to work on a game as opposed to 400+ you typically see in a modern triple A game, then you don't need to sell as many copies of a game so an advertising budget does not become as important.

I'm willing to bet that the average developer who worked on a game like Bastion made more per year than the average developer who worked on any of the huge triple A titles which is a better measurement of success than sheer number of copies sold.

There is no need to hate on indie titles.  Sure, there is a lot more crap out there (debatable though, as there is plenty of triple A shovelware too) than triple A titles, but that doesn't mean you don't get a few - well more than a few - gems every once in a while.  I play a lot of both triple A and indie titles, and one of my most anticipated titles this year is No Man's Sky which is an indie game as well as looking forward to a few others like Rime, Shiness, Chasm, and a few others.

Not sure where you got the information in red but you are way off...

 

http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/arey.shtml

 

Expectation for the average AAA team size next generation?
Around 120 people. Aren't we here already?

That's an article from 2005.  AAA budget games have gotten significantly larger.  Granted I was including publishers/QA, contract workers (such as voice actors), and basing it off MMOs mostly (which have significantly larger teams typically).  Even if the number if the 120 number is more accurate, it doesn't diminish the point I was trying to make.

Raptr link because it's the cool new trend:

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4872

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

7/11/14 5:00:39 PM#48
I didn't say it doesn't impact the outcome. I said it is not a linear relationship.

Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

7/11/14 5:06:29 PM#49
Originally posted by allday88
Originally posted by AIMonster
Originally posted by allday88
Originally posted by AIMonster

I know I'm going a little offtopic here, but:

Why are some of you hating on indie games so much?  You can have your next triple A game like Call of Duty, and I'll continue enjoying games like Journey, Dungeon Defenders, Bastion, Transistor, Recettear, Amensia, Fez, LIMBO, World of Goo, Hotline Miami, etc.  As far as advertising and budget goes, when you are paying less than 10 developers to work on a game as opposed to 400+ you typically see in a modern triple A game, then you don't need to sell as many copies of a game so an advertising budget does not become as important.

I'm willing to bet that the average developer who worked on a game like Bastion made more per year than the average developer who worked on any of the huge triple A titles which is a better measurement of success than sheer number of copies sold.

There is no need to hate on indie titles.  Sure, there is a lot more crap out there (debatable though, as there is plenty of triple A shovelware too) than triple A titles, but that doesn't mean you don't get a few - well more than a few - gems every once in a while.  I play a lot of both triple A and indie titles, and one of my most anticipated titles this year is No Man's Sky which is an indie game as well as looking forward to a few others like Rime, Shiness, Chasm, and a few others.

Not sure where you got the information in red but you are way off...

 

http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/arey.shtml

 

Expectation for the average AAA team size next generation?
Around 120 people. Aren't we here already?

That's an article from 2005.  AAA budget games have gotten significantly larger.  Granted I was including publishers/QA, contract workers (such as voice actors), and basing it off MMOs mostly (which have significantly larger teams typically).  Even if the number if the 120 number is more accurate, it doesn't diminish the point I was trying to make.

Oh you took off what i was replying too...thats ok i will still post it.  

 

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/189893/Industry_in_flux_What_we_learned_from_Game_Developers_2012_Salary_Survey.php

 

Indies still struggling. Despite the fact that indie devs are receiving more attention than ever before, the average indie still isn't very well-compensated; individual indie developers averaged $23,130 (down $420 from 2011), and members of indie teams averaged $19,487.

 

Btw the average Dev is around $83K  so yeah indie devs do not make more the AAA devs.  

that is most likely the best article every posted here on MMORPG (in my view).

I would like to see them drill down a bit deeper and look at the income for the indie creator vs what they could make as a AAA developer. Reason is I have this unprooven running theory that the good developers might be able to make more money as a start up indie then they could as a AAA developer. That is different from the people they hire.

Having said that, its a very fair and eye opening article

 

Correlation does not imply causation

  Loktofeit

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

7/11/14 5:16:27 PM#50
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
 

lol..

now that logic was funny.

why do they not sell more? BECAUSE THE MASSES DONT KNOW THEY EXIST..

why do the masses not know they exist? BECAUSE THEY DONT ADVERTISE.

For AAA games advertising is more important than the game itself. this is why they spend more money on adds then they do game development. Advertising makes a huge difference.

I know about most indie games, I don't play them because so far they're not making the types of games I'm interested in. I doubt many people that frequent gaming sites have never heard of games like worm etc. They still don't seem to be playing them. So lack of advertising obviously isn't the only reason these indie games don't appeal to the masses.

advertising is a huge business and the reason it is is because it works. There is much more to advertising then just making you aware that a game exists. There is also product loyalty manipulation and things of that sort. There is also a lot of money being spent in areas that you are not directly even aware of. 

I think (although I dont know for sure) that most people who shy away from indies do it strickly because they BELIEVE the games should be better if they are higher budget or because they believe that they should play them. More so then actually playing them and giving them a fair shake. Now granted this is my assumption, not factual by any stretch. Part of why I beleive this is because I used to believe if.

 

Clearly advertising works or they wouldn't spend what they do on it.  But I don't think just advertising something makes it a huge hit. WoW for example isn't popular because of it's ads on TV, it's popular because of what the game offers. 

I'll agree with you that many people don't try indie games and advertising would change that, but keeping them in the game after is 100% on the game itself. That is where they lose me. So in your original statement that they're not popular because of a lack of advertising...I'll still have to disagree. Like others have posted. Even without it a good game will grow it's population. Not many indie's can make that claim.

If advertisement wasn't necessary, even for an existing popular product, then Pepsi, Marlboro and Ford are wasting a ton of money. 

You have a lot of things at play with advertising. Awareness is just one of them, and awareness costs a lot of money. Organic growth of a game's population, flukes and anomalies aside, needs help, and advertising is a huge part of that help. Another thing is that when people see ads over and over for something, it reinforces with them - "Hey, I'm seeing it a lot. It must be good/popular/fun." Each one of you that just said to yourself "I don't fall for that" more than likely is one of the people most influenced by it. 

When it comes to online games or games where a community is necessary for its success, ongoing advertising helps to bring more people in. "Build it and they will come" is a neat line for a movie but it isn't how things work in the real world. The developer is going to constantly combat churn, and acquisition of new people is crucial to that. 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15841

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

7/11/14 5:20:12 PM#51
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

here at MMORPG forums 'good' 'better' and 'best' is SUBJECTIVE. and with that to me indie games are considerably better than AAA and I have played both. 

I have noticed in these debates about indie vs AAA that nobody seems to want to ask WHY I think indies are better. Are people afraid of the feature list?

No one asks you why because it's obvious why. Indie games tend to hit at beats less struck by larger more mass market offerings. They're also less tied down to a set tried and true feature list. This is no secret only you are privy to.

This is the part, based on your posts, you don't seem to get though. AAA games aren't only more popular because of marketing. They're more popular in a lot of cases because regardless of what goes into a feature list, the features there are more often than not represented at a higher production value. Especially if talking about the PC or MMO platform.

The biggest reason behind this in the past was that the talent in those producing said titles. Was of a higher caliber than typical indie projects, as most indies were freshman to the field or hobbyists. This is starting to change though, with many from the AAA market starting up smaller studios to work on more personalized projects. This is good for all gamers IMO. 

 

 

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4815

7/11/14 5:20:56 PM#52

Interesting...

So the OP opens with a statement about how 'sales do not determine the quality of a game', to then complain about business models.

Bit of a contradiction there, and that kind of sets the precedence for why the OP is wrong. F2P, B2P, Subscriptions, these are all business models. They don't affect the quality of a game, but they do affect how a company plans future updates. Subscription models seem more reliable on paper, and to an extent you have more of a sense of how much revenue you will have each month (up front). Where as F2P has a predictable target model of 'we will get an average of this much per month, with X setup', and tends to last more long-term.

It still amazes me how attached people have gotten to one business model or another. In the sense that people actually believe that it not only affects, but determines whether or not a game CAN be good. You can plug your eyes and choose to believe otherwise, but the facts show no correlation between the two.

Good games come from good design philosophies, and developers you trust. Also the simpler a game is, the more likely it is to be 'good' and the more accessible it becomes (the more popular). The more complex a game is, the more potential it has to become great, but the more likely it is to be mediocre / bad / etc. Complex games also tend to have a harder time correcting mistakes.

As for business model, you can hate one and love another, but that usually becomes a secondary factor. Ask yourself this 'how many MMOs would I still enjoy, if the pricing model changed from sub - f2p or visa versa. And there's your answer. Most F2P games you claim to hate, you would still dislike as a sub game. Most sub games you claim to love, you would probably still love with a f2p model. The only exception is the number of companies that simply don't understand how to properly implement a f2p model (EA looking at you).

  doodphace

Elite Member

Joined: 6/19/12
Posts: 1703

7/11/14 5:23:13 PM#53
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Sukiyaki
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Sukiyaki
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

lol..

now that logic was funny.

why do they not sell more? BECAUSE THE MASSES DONT KNOW THEY EXIST..

why do the masses not know they exist? BECAUSE THEY DONT ADVERTISE.

For AAA games advertising is more important than the game itself. this is why they spend more money on adds then they do game development. Advertising makes a huge difference.

This is wrong. Most of the past 10 years AAA MMO developer/publisher only spend a fraction on marketing compared to their development budget. Usually it equals to 10 - 30% of the game development budget ( as a seperate budget not taken from the dev budget). Yes 10-30% is in fact  already quite a lot to market an AAA MMO with dev bugdets around 30-50 Million $US and reaching questionable levels but its far from as much as development costs. Of course it feels wasteful to the gamer, but it works and finally it will probably benefit you as a player as well if you game is doing well thanks to some ads luring in new player.

The widespread impression of a much bolder sums spent on marketing such as yours exists because in the West the the few dominant big publishing houses going for the massmarket are spending ridiculously large sums on marketing.

Blizzard is one of these companies who despite the equaly bold denial of fanbase rely very much on the constant massive and forced hype going on around their products reaching far beyond your little mmo fansites beta invite ad and their marketing budget tends to equal 80-90% of their development budget going up and down with new releases. EA is another hype machine with similar figures on the balance sheets. These hype machines are however just bad apples and exceptions. Not every burger selling restaurant is rolling out ads on the Time Square and Piccadilly Circus.

proove it

I point at the public financial reports released by almost every relevant AAA developer including private held ones like CCCP of the past 10 years. Usually found after 3 second of typing  "company name + IR" into google, click on the first or second result and pick a report and then scrolling to the cost of sales or expenses page.

The first place where everyone would look if he honestly would bother about these figures.

please provide links of marketing budgets compared to dev budgets. I will provide you with an easy hint.

Look up GTA 5 and post the link proving that its around 10-30%

Only because I'm bored..

Development = $137.5 million

Marketing = 109.3 million

I am pretty sure that's well over 10-30%. To be fair, he did say "AAA MMO Developer/Publisher", which would negate your GTA V example, unless of course you consider GTA Online an "MMO".

Its hard to read the rest of his post though. if its for a game he likes, its "marketing"...if its for a game he doesn't like, its "constanty forced hype, hype machine" etc etc.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

7/11/14 5:24:36 PM#54
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

here at MMORPG forums 'good' 'better' and 'best' is SUBJECTIVE. and with that to me indie games are considerably better than AAA and I have played both. 

I have noticed in these debates about indie vs AAA that nobody seems to want to ask WHY I think indies are better. Are people afraid of the feature list?

No one asks you why because it's obvious why. Indie games tend to hit at beats less struck by larger more mass market offerings. They're also less tied down to a set tried and true feature list. This is no secret only you are privy to.

This is the part, based on your posts, you don't seem to get though. AAA games aren't only more popular because of marketing. They're more popular in a lot of cases because regardless of what goes into a feature list, the features there are more often than not represented at a higher production value. Especially if talking about the PC or MMO platform.

The biggest reason behind this in the past was that the talent in those producing said titles. Was of a higher caliber than typical indie projects, as most indies were freshman to the field or hobbyists. This is starting to change though, with many from the AAA market starting up smaller studios to work on more personalized projects. This is good for all gamers IMO. 

 

 

somewhat acceptable answer although it doesnt address the more specific reasons why I like indies but then again the conversation is not about me in all fairness.

With that said I am confused by this one statement...'he features there are more often than not represented at a higher production value' exactly what do you mean by production value?

Correlation does not imply causation

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4815

7/11/14 5:27:09 PM#55
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

here at MMORPG forums 'good' 'better' and 'best' is SUBJECTIVE. and with that to me indie games are considerably better than AAA and I have played both. 

I have noticed in these debates about indie vs AAA that nobody seems to want to ask WHY I think indies are better. Are people afraid of the feature list?

No one asks you why because it's obvious why. Indie games tend to hit at beats less struck by larger more mass market offerings. They're also less tied down to a set tried and true feature list. This is no secret only you are privy to.

This is the part, based on your posts, you don't seem to get though. AAA games aren't only more popular because of marketing. They're more popular in a lot of cases because regardless of what goes into a feature list, the features there are more often than not represented at a higher production value. Especially if talking about the PC or MMO platform.

The biggest reason behind this in the past was that the talent in those producing said titles. Was of a higher caliber than typical indie projects, as most indies were freshman to the field or hobbyists. This is starting to change though, with many from the AAA market starting up smaller studios to work on more personalized projects. This is good for all gamers IMO. 

It's no use Distopia. This guy has been trying to push this idea that 'indie games have more features than AAA games' for weeks now. That's why he keeps bringing up this 'feature list'. People have tried explaining to him the error with his logic numerous times in VERY clear ways. And it's like talking to a wall.

And I agree 100%.

AAA games do cater to the higher percentage of the market, mostly because they have to. Higher production costs = higher risk = necessary to recoup a larger profit. This is why most of the risk taking tends to happen at the indie level as well. Because indie games mostly have to take risks if they want to succeed. They don't have the budget to compete w/ those AAA games, so instead they try and do something the AAA games are not currently doing. They innovate, they try making new IPs, they revisit old ideas that have been forgotten. And that's what some of us love about indies, they tend to breath fresh life into a genre, or even reanimate a dead one.

The two types of games actually help each other out. They're co-dependant, and one isn't inherently better than the other. It's just a difference in personal tastes, and what one (individually) is looking for in a game.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

7/11/14 5:27:09 PM#56
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Sukiyaki
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Sukiyaki
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

lol..

now that logic was funny.

why do they not sell more? BECAUSE THE MASSES DONT KNOW THEY EXIST..

why do the masses not know they exist? BECAUSE THEY DONT ADVERTISE.

For AAA games advertising is more important than the game itself. this is why they spend more money on adds then they do game development. Advertising makes a huge difference.

This is wrong. Most of the past 10 years AAA MMO developer/publisher only spend a fraction on marketing compared to their development budget. Usually it equals to 10 - 30% of the game development budget ( as a seperate budget not taken from the dev budget). Yes 10-30% is in fact  already quite a lot to market an AAA MMO with dev bugdets around 30-50 Million $US and reaching questionable levels but its far from as much as development costs. Of course it feels wasteful to the gamer, but it works and finally it will probably benefit you as a player as well if you game is doing well thanks to some ads luring in new player.

The widespread impression of a much bolder sums spent on marketing such as yours exists because in the West the the few dominant big publishing houses going for the massmarket are spending ridiculously large sums on marketing.

Blizzard is one of these companies who despite the equaly bold denial of fanbase rely very much on the constant massive and forced hype going on around their products reaching far beyond your little mmo fansites beta invite ad and their marketing budget tends to equal 80-90% of their development budget going up and down with new releases. EA is another hype machine with similar figures on the balance sheets. These hype machines are however just bad apples and exceptions. Not every burger selling restaurant is rolling out ads on the Time Square and Piccadilly Circus.

proove it

I point at the public financial reports released by almost every relevant AAA developer including private held ones like CCCP of the past 10 years. Usually found after 3 second of typing  "company name + IR" into google, click on the first or second result and pick a report and then scrolling to the cost of sales or expenses page.

The first place where everyone would look if he honestly would bother about these figures.

please provide links of marketing budgets compared to dev budgets. I will provide you with an easy hint.

Look up GTA 5 and post the link proving that its around 10-30%

Only because I'm bored..

Development = $137.5 million

Marketing = 109.3 million

I am pretty sure that's well over 10-30%. To be fair, he did say "AAA MMO Developer/Publisher", which would negate your GTA V example, unless of course you consider GTA Online an "MMO".

exactly.

It would be nice if people applied the same standards to themselves as they do others. It seems rare to do so.

Correlation does not imply causation

  doodphace

Elite Member

Joined: 6/19/12
Posts: 1703

7/11/14 5:30:20 PM#57
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Sukiyaki
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Sukiyaki
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

lol..

now that logic was funny.

why do they not sell more? BECAUSE THE MASSES DONT KNOW THEY EXIST..

why do the masses not know they exist? BECAUSE THEY DONT ADVERTISE.

For AAA games advertising is more important than the game itself. this is why they spend more money on adds then they do game development. Advertising makes a huge difference.

This is wrong. Most of the past 10 years AAA MMO developer/publisher only spend a fraction on marketing compared to their development budget. Usually it equals to 10 - 30% of the game development budget ( as a seperate budget not taken from the dev budget). Yes 10-30% is in fact  already quite a lot to market an AAA MMO with dev bugdets around 30-50 Million $US and reaching questionable levels but its far from as much as development costs. Of course it feels wasteful to the gamer, but it works and finally it will probably benefit you as a player as well if you game is doing well thanks to some ads luring in new player.

The widespread impression of a much bolder sums spent on marketing such as yours exists because in the West the the few dominant big publishing houses going for the massmarket are spending ridiculously large sums on marketing.

Blizzard is one of these companies who despite the equaly bold denial of fanbase rely very much on the constant massive and forced hype going on around their products reaching far beyond your little mmo fansites beta invite ad and their marketing budget tends to equal 80-90% of their development budget going up and down with new releases. EA is another hype machine with similar figures on the balance sheets. These hype machines are however just bad apples and exceptions. Not every burger selling restaurant is rolling out ads on the Time Square and Piccadilly Circus.

proove it

I point at the public financial reports released by almost every relevant AAA developer including private held ones like CCCP of the past 10 years. Usually found after 3 second of typing  "company name + IR" into google, click on the first or second result and pick a report and then scrolling to the cost of sales or expenses page.

The first place where everyone would look if he honestly would bother about these figures.

please provide links of marketing budgets compared to dev budgets. I will provide you with an easy hint.

Look up GTA 5 and post the link proving that its around 10-30%

Only because I'm bored..

Development = $137.5 million

Marketing = 109.3 million

I am pretty sure that's well over 10-30%. To be fair, he did say "AAA MMO Developer/Publisher", which would negate your GTA V example, unless of course you consider GTA Online an "MMO".

exactly.

It would be nice if people applied the same standards to themselves as they do others. It seems rare to do so.

I didn't prove u right, so not sure why u wrote "exactly". He said MMO, and you replied with "GTAV". GTAV is a single player game, I mearly mentioned GTA Online as an aside.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

7/11/14 5:33:23 PM#58
Originally posted by doodphace
 

I didn't prove u right, so not sure why u wrote "exactly". He said MMO, and you replied with "GTAV". GTAV is a single player game, I mearly mentioned GTA Online as an aside.

I am still waiting for proof that AAA marketing budgets are around 10-30% as a poster claimed it was.

Correlation does not imply causation

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15841

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

7/11/14 5:34:54 PM#59
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

here at MMORPG forums 'good' 'better' and 'best' is SUBJECTIVE. and with that to me indie games are considerably better than AAA and I have played both. 

I have noticed in these debates about indie vs AAA that nobody seems to want to ask WHY I think indies are better. Are people afraid of the feature list?

No one asks you why because it's obvious why. Indie games tend to hit at beats less struck by larger more mass market offerings. They're also less tied down to a set tried and true feature list. This is no secret only you are privy to.

This is the part, based on your posts, you don't seem to get though. AAA games aren't only more popular because of marketing. They're more popular in a lot of cases because regardless of what goes into a feature list, the features there are more often than not represented at a higher production value. Especially if talking about the PC or MMO platform.

The biggest reason behind this in the past was that the talent in those producing said titles. Was of a higher caliber than typical indie projects, as most indies were freshman to the field or hobbyists. This is starting to change though, with many from the AAA market starting up smaller studios to work on more personalized projects. This is good for all gamers IMO. 

 

 

somewhat acceptable answer although it doesnt address the more specific reasons why I like indies but then again the conversation is not about me in all fairness.

With that said I am confused by this one statement...'he features there are more often than not represented at a higher production value' exactly what do you mean by production value?

Essentially this..

production value; the combined technical qualities of the methods, materials, or stagecraft skills used in the production of a motion picture or artistic performance.  

Terms would somewhat differ in regard to games, but it's the basic principle that counts. To say it more in line with games. Polish is a word often used, or presentation is another.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

7/11/14 5:37:26 PM#60
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

here at MMORPG forums 'good' 'better' and 'best' is SUBJECTIVE. and with that to me indie games are considerably better than AAA and I have played both. 

I have noticed in these debates about indie vs AAA that nobody seems to want to ask WHY I think indies are better. Are people afraid of the feature list?

No one asks you why because it's obvious why. Indie games tend to hit at beats less struck by larger more mass market offerings. They're also less tied down to a set tried and true feature list. This is no secret only you are privy to.

This is the part, based on your posts, you don't seem to get though. AAA games aren't only more popular because of marketing. They're more popular in a lot of cases because regardless of what goes into a feature list, the features there are more often than not represented at a higher production value. Especially if talking about the PC or MMO platform.

The biggest reason behind this in the past was that the talent in those producing said titles. Was of a higher caliber than typical indie projects, as most indies were freshman to the field or hobbyists. This is starting to change though, with many from the AAA market starting up smaller studios to work on more personalized projects. This is good for all gamers IMO. 

 

 

somewhat acceptable answer although it doesnt address the more specific reasons why I like indies but then again the conversation is not about me in all fairness.

With that said I am confused by this one statement...'he features there are more often than not represented at a higher production value' exactly what do you mean by production value?

Essentially this..

production value; the combined technical qualities of the methods, materials, or stagecraft skills used in the production of a motion picture or artistic performance.  

I dont know if its possible for that to be anymore abstract or subjective.

 

as a side note, I left EQ2 out of curiousity I had an idea of something that I thought would be fun to do in games and I found those things and more. Its 'production value' was fine in what I found

Correlation does not imply causation

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