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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The state of MMOs 2014 - "A buffet for the masses".

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133 posts found
  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5176

7/11/14 3:28:31 PM#41
Originally posted by allday88
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by allday88
Originally posted by AIMonster

I know I'm going a little offtopic here, but:

Why are some of you hating on indie games so much?  You can have your next triple A game like Call of Duty, and I'll continue enjoying games like Journey, Dungeon Defenders, Bastion, Transistor, Recettear, Amensia, Fez, LIMBO, World of Goo, Hotline Miami, etc.  As far as advertising and budget goes, when you are paying less than 10 developers to work on a game as opposed to 400+ you typically see in a modern triple A game, then you don't need to sell as many copies of a game so an advertising budget does not become as important.

I'm willing to bet that the average developer who worked on a game like Bastion made more per year than the average developer who worked on any of the huge triple A titles which is a better measurement of success than sheer number of copies sold.

There is no need to hate on indie titles.  Sure, there is a lot more crap out there (debatable though, as there is plenty of triple A shovelware too) than triple A titles, but that doesn't mean you don't get a few - well more than a few - gems every once in a while.  I play a lot of both triple A and indie titles, and one of my most anticipated titles this year is No Man's Sky which is an indie game as well as looking forward to a few others like Rime, Shiness, Chasm, and a few others.

Not sure where you got the information in red but you are way off...

 

http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/arey.shtml

 

Expectation for the average AAA team size next generation?
Around 120 people. Aren't we here already?

10 : 400 vs 10: 120 doesnt make his point any less valid in this case.

at a 10 :120 ratio a AAA game 'should' be more than 10 times as good and bring in more than 10 times as much money for all people invested.

Ok I stopped replying to you for a reason...but if you want to reply to me i will gladly engage you.

AAA "should" be more than 10 times as good and bring in more than 10 times as much money 

I am pretty sure that games like WoW, Mass effect franchise, Dragon Age franchise, Madden Franchise, and  a ton of other AAA have made more than 10 times their indie competition.  

here at MMORPG forums 'good' 'better' and 'best' is SUBJECTIVE. and with that to me indie games are considerably better than AAA and I have played both. 

I have noticed in these debates about indie vs AAA that nobody seems to want to ask WHY I think indies are better. Are people afraid of the feature list?

Correlation does not imply causation

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4767

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

7/11/14 3:31:32 PM#42
Well if it was a linear relationship between the amount of devs the quality of a project and the amount of money earned you would be right.

Since that is a completely ridiculous and totally unsupported position you are completely wrong

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5176

7/11/14 3:33:03 PM#43
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Well if it was a linear relationship between the amount of devs the quality of a project and the amount of money earned you would be right.

Since that is a completely ridiculous and totally unsupported position you are completely wrong

the problem is comparing me again a team of lets say 20 as the same playing field is silly.

1 vs 20 on the football field would be an easy bet...but you disagree?

Correlation does not imply causation

  allday88

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/10/14
Posts: 318

7/11/14 3:33:24 PM#44

Not sure where you got the information in red but you are way off...

 

http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/arey.shtml

 

Expectation for the average AAA team size next generation?
Around 120 people. Aren't we here already?

10 : 400 vs 10: 120 doesnt make his point any less valid in this case.

at a 10 :120 ratio a AAA game 'should' be more than 10 times as good and bring in more than 10 times as much money for all people invested.

Ok I stopped replying to you for a reason...but if you want to reply to me i will gladly engage you.

AAA "should" be more than 10 times as good and bring in more than 10 times as much money 

I am pretty sure that games like WoW, Mass effect franchise, Dragon Age franchise, Madden Franchise, and  a ton of other AAA have made more than 10 times their indie competition.  

here at MMORPG forums 'good' 'better' and 'best' is SUBJECTIVE. and with that to me indie games are considerably better than AAA and I have played both. 

I dont care what you like.  I was not replying to what you like.  You said "BRING IN MORE THAN 10 TIMES AS MUCH MONEY FOR ALL PEOPLE INVESTED"  I understand you don't like to talk about facts but if you want to engage me in a conversation please stay on topic.  

 

So which one of the games i listed did the indie competition come within 10X of what the AAA brought in?  Now if you are going to do your change the subject please dont reply, I will take that as you cant back up what you said.    

My links are Doop approved.

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4767

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

7/11/14 3:33:47 PM#45
It's more because we don't care why you like them better. That would be a fruitless argument about tastes

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5176

7/11/14 3:35:03 PM#46
Originally posted by allday88

Not sure where you got the information in red but you are way off...

 

http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/arey.shtml

 

Expectation for the average AAA team size next generation?
Around 120 people. Aren't we here already?

10 : 400 vs 10: 120 doesnt make his point any less valid in this case.

at a 10 :120 ratio a AAA game 'should' be more than 10 times as good and bring in more than 10 times as much money for all people invested.

Ok I stopped replying to you for a reason...but if you want to reply to me i will gladly engage you.

AAA "should" be more than 10 times as good and bring in more than 10 times as much money 

I am pretty sure that games like WoW, Mass effect franchise, Dragon Age franchise, Madden Franchise, and  a ton of other AAA have made more than 10 times their indie competition.  

here at MMORPG forums 'good' 'better' and 'best' is SUBJECTIVE. and with that to me indie games are considerably better than AAA and I have played both. 

I dont care what you like.  I was not replying to what you like.  You said "BRING IN MORE THAN 10 TIMES AS MUCH MONEY FOR ALL PEOPLE INVESTED"  I understand you don't like to talk about facts but if you want to engage me in a conversation please stay on topic.  

 

So which one of the games i listed did the indie competition come within 10X of what the AAA brought in?  Now if you are going to do your change the subject please dont reply, I will take that as you cant back up what you said.    

my bad I missed that.

your right though. I do not equate income with quallty so how much they make really is mute point to me unless you are talking about economics

Correlation does not imply causation

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4767

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

7/11/14 3:35:54 PM#47
Once again I'm saying there is not a linear relationship between the number of people, the quality and the revenue.

Bad analogies should not be discussed

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4650

7/11/14 3:36:26 PM#48
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
 

here at MMORPG forums 'good' 'better' and 'best' is SUBJECTIVE. and with that to me indie games are considerably better than AAA and I have played both. 

I have noticed in these debates about indie vs AAA that nobody seems to want to ask WHY I think indies are better. Are people afraid of the feature list?

Everywhere in world good, better best is subjective....not just here. Your issue seems to be that you can't handle other people not agreeing with you. That somehow one opinion can be more right than anothers and that there are facts to prove it right.

Your feature list would be a list of things important to you. If someone didn't care about the items on it or listed them in a different priority they probably wont agree with you.

 

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  allday88

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/10/14
Posts: 318

7/11/14 3:37:34 PM#49
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by allday88

Not sure where you got the information in red but you are way off...

 

http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/arey.shtml

 

Expectation for the average AAA team size next generation?
Around 120 people. Aren't we here already?

10 : 400 vs 10: 120 doesnt make his point any less valid in this case.

at a 10 :120 ratio a AAA game 'should' be more than 10 times as good and bring in more than 10 times as much money for all people invested.

Ok I stopped replying to you for a reason...but if you want to reply to me i will gladly engage you.

AAA "should" be more than 10 times as good and bring in more than 10 times as much money 

I am pretty sure that games like WoW, Mass effect franchise, Dragon Age franchise, Madden Franchise, and  a ton of other AAA have made more than 10 times their indie competition.  

here at MMORPG forums 'good' 'better' and 'best' is SUBJECTIVE. and with that to me indie games are considerably better than AAA and I have played both. 

I dont care what you like.  I was not replying to what you like.  You said "BRING IN MORE THAN 10 TIMES AS MUCH MONEY FOR ALL PEOPLE INVESTED"  I understand you don't like to talk about facts but if you want to engage me in a conversation please stay on topic.  

 

So which one of the games i listed did the indie competition come within 10X of what the AAA brought in?  Now if you are going to do your change the subject please dont reply, I will take that as you cant back up what you said.    

my bad I missed that.

your right though. I do not equate income with quallty so how much they make really is mute point to me unless you are talking about economics

/facepalm

There was a reason i stopped replying to you...

Have a good one, enjoy your indie games...

My links are Doop approved.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5176

7/11/14 3:38:17 PM#50
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
 

here at MMORPG forums 'good' 'better' and 'best' is SUBJECTIVE. and with that to me indie games are considerably better than AAA and I have played both. 

I have noticed in these debates about indie vs AAA that nobody seems to want to ask WHY I think indies are better. Are people afraid of the feature list?

Everywhere in world good, better best is subjective....not just here. Your issue seems to be that you can't handle other people not agreeing with you. That somehow one opinion can be more right than anothers and that there are facts to prove it right.

Your feature list would be a list of things important to you. If someone didn't care about the items on it or listed them in a different priority they probably wont agree with you.

 

no...people are stating that AAA are better as a fact and are wanting me to say that me thinking indies is better is subjective.

that is my core issue here.

if everyone asked of themselves the same parameters they asked of me I would be very happy

 

Correlation does not imply causation

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4650

7/11/14 3:42:13 PM#51
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
 

here at MMORPG forums 'good' 'better' and 'best' is SUBJECTIVE. and with that to me indie games are considerably better than AAA and I have played both. 

I have noticed in these debates about indie vs AAA that nobody seems to want to ask WHY I think indies are better. Are people afraid of the feature list?

Everywhere in world good, better best is subjective....not just here. Your issue seems to be that you can't handle other people not agreeing with you. That somehow one opinion can be more right than anothers and that there are facts to prove it right.

Your feature list would be a list of things important to you. If someone didn't care about the items on it or listed them in a different priority they probably wont agree with you.

 

no...people are stating that AAA are better as a fact and are wanting me to say that me thinking indies is better is subjective.

that is my core issue here.

if everyone asked of themselves the same parameters they asked of me I would be very happy

 

There are no facts that would let them win. You trying to argue it with them make you lose.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  Shaigh

Elite Member

Joined: 3/07/13
Posts: 264

7/11/14 3:42:45 PM#52

F2P popularity has nothing to do with the state of MMO's in 2014. The reason for this is games like tera, archeage, tsw, rift and swtor all started as P2P, f2p games like planetside 2 and neverwinter, and b2p like gw2 started its development before f2p became a big deal, and ff14arr, wildstar and elder scrolls online were always intended as P2P.

 

It wont be until games like eq next, the repopulation and wh40k:EC and many others gets released that we will see the real effect that f2p popularity has on game design. However, when it comes to eq next its gw2 that has the biggest impact on the games design.

  Sukiyaki

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/14/09
Posts: 1296

7/11/14 3:42:50 PM#53
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Sukiyaki
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

lol..

now that logic was funny.

why do they not sell more? BECAUSE THE MASSES DONT KNOW THEY EXIST..

why do the masses not know they exist? BECAUSE THEY DONT ADVERTISE.

For AAA games advertising is more important than the game itself. this is why they spend more money on adds then they do game development. Advertising makes a huge difference.

This is wrong. Most of the past 10 years AAA MMO developer/publisher only spend a fraction on marketing compared to their development budget. Usually it equals to 10 - 30% of the game development budget ( as a seperate budget not taken from the dev budget). Yes 10-30% is in fact  already quite a lot to market an AAA MMO with dev bugdets around 30-50 Million $US and reaching questionable levels but its far from as much as development costs. Of course it feels wasteful to the gamer, but it works and finally it will probably benefit you as a player as well if you game is doing well thanks to some ads luring in new player.

The widespread impression of a much bolder sums spent on marketing such as yours exists because in the West the the few dominant big publishing houses going for the massmarket are spending ridiculously large sums on marketing.

Blizzard is one of these companies who despite the equaly bold denial of fanbase rely very much on the constant massive and forced hype going on around their products reaching far beyond your little mmo fansites beta invite ad and their marketing budget tends to equal 80-90% of their development budget going up and down with new releases. EA is another hype machine with similar figures on the balance sheets. These hype machines are however just bad apples and exceptions. Not every burger selling restaurant is rolling out ads on the Time Square and Piccadilly Circus.

proove it

I point at the public financial reports released by almost every relevant AAA developer including private held ones like CCCP of the past 10 years. Usually found after 3 second of typing  "company name + IR" into google, click on the first or second result and pick a report and then scrolling to the cost of sales or expenses page.

The first place where everyone would look if he honestly would bother about these figures. Those arent the type of figures you discuss. You either make them up or you know where they are printed black on white.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5176

7/11/14 3:47:56 PM#54
Originally posted by Sukiyaki
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Sukiyaki
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

lol..

now that logic was funny.

why do they not sell more? BECAUSE THE MASSES DONT KNOW THEY EXIST..

why do the masses not know they exist? BECAUSE THEY DONT ADVERTISE.

For AAA games advertising is more important than the game itself. this is why they spend more money on adds then they do game development. Advertising makes a huge difference.

This is wrong. Most of the past 10 years AAA MMO developer/publisher only spend a fraction on marketing compared to their development budget. Usually it equals to 10 - 30% of the game development budget ( as a seperate budget not taken from the dev budget). Yes 10-30% is in fact  already quite a lot to market an AAA MMO with dev bugdets around 30-50 Million $US and reaching questionable levels but its far from as much as development costs. Of course it feels wasteful to the gamer, but it works and finally it will probably benefit you as a player as well if you game is doing well thanks to some ads luring in new player.

The widespread impression of a much bolder sums spent on marketing such as yours exists because in the West the the few dominant big publishing houses going for the massmarket are spending ridiculously large sums on marketing.

Blizzard is one of these companies who despite the equaly bold denial of fanbase rely very much on the constant massive and forced hype going on around their products reaching far beyond your little mmo fansites beta invite ad and their marketing budget tends to equal 80-90% of their development budget going up and down with new releases. EA is another hype machine with similar figures on the balance sheets. These hype machines are however just bad apples and exceptions. Not every burger selling restaurant is rolling out ads on the Time Square and Piccadilly Circus.

proove it

I point at the public financial reports released by almost every relevant AAA developer including private held ones like CCCP of the past 10 years. Usually found after 3 second of typing  "company name + IR" into google, click on the first or second result and pick a report and then scrolling to the cost of sales or expenses page.

The first place where everyone would look if he honestly would bother about these figures.

please provide links of marketing budgets compared to dev budgets. I will provide you with an easy hint.

Look up GTA 5 and post the link proving that its around 10-30%

Correlation does not imply causation

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5176

7/11/14 3:51:07 PM#55
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Once again I'm saying there is not a linear relationship between the number of people, the quality and the revenue.

Bad analogies should not be discussed

its your choice to believe that a team of 1 vs a team of 20 doesnt impact the outcome. Its your choice to not want to talk about it.

Correlation does not imply causation

  AIMonster

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/31/08
Posts: 2016

7/11/14 3:51:11 PM#56
Originally posted by allday88
Originally posted by AIMonster

I know I'm going a little offtopic here, but:

Why are some of you hating on indie games so much?  You can have your next triple A game like Call of Duty, and I'll continue enjoying games like Journey, Dungeon Defenders, Bastion, Transistor, Recettear, Amensia, Fez, LIMBO, World of Goo, Hotline Miami, etc.  As far as advertising and budget goes, when you are paying less than 10 developers to work on a game as opposed to 400+ you typically see in a modern triple A game, then you don't need to sell as many copies of a game so an advertising budget does not become as important.

I'm willing to bet that the average developer who worked on a game like Bastion made more per year than the average developer who worked on any of the huge triple A titles which is a better measurement of success than sheer number of copies sold.

There is no need to hate on indie titles.  Sure, there is a lot more crap out there (debatable though, as there is plenty of triple A shovelware too) than triple A titles, but that doesn't mean you don't get a few - well more than a few - gems every once in a while.  I play a lot of both triple A and indie titles, and one of my most anticipated titles this year is No Man's Sky which is an indie game as well as looking forward to a few others like Rime, Shiness, Chasm, and a few others.

Not sure where you got the information in red but you are way off...

 

http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/arey.shtml

 

Expectation for the average AAA team size next generation?
Around 120 people. Aren't we here already?

That's an article from 2005.  AAA budget games have gotten significantly larger.  Granted I was including publishers/QA, contract workers (such as voice actors), and basing it off MMOs mostly (which have significantly larger teams typically).  Even if the number if the 120 number is more accurate, it doesn't diminish the point I was trying to make.

Raptr link because it's the cool new trend:

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4767

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

7/11/14 4:00:39 PM#57
I didn't say it doesn't impact the outcome. I said it is not a linear relationship.

Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  allday88

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/10/14
Posts: 318

7/11/14 4:00:52 PM#58
Originally posted by AIMonster
Originally posted by allday88
Originally posted by AIMonster

I know I'm going a little offtopic here, but:

Why are some of you hating on indie games so much?  You can have your next triple A game like Call of Duty, and I'll continue enjoying games like Journey, Dungeon Defenders, Bastion, Transistor, Recettear, Amensia, Fez, LIMBO, World of Goo, Hotline Miami, etc.  As far as advertising and budget goes, when you are paying less than 10 developers to work on a game as opposed to 400+ you typically see in a modern triple A game, then you don't need to sell as many copies of a game so an advertising budget does not become as important.

I'm willing to bet that the average developer who worked on a game like Bastion made more per year than the average developer who worked on any of the huge triple A titles which is a better measurement of success than sheer number of copies sold.

There is no need to hate on indie titles.  Sure, there is a lot more crap out there (debatable though, as there is plenty of triple A shovelware too) than triple A titles, but that doesn't mean you don't get a few - well more than a few - gems every once in a while.  I play a lot of both triple A and indie titles, and one of my most anticipated titles this year is No Man's Sky which is an indie game as well as looking forward to a few others like Rime, Shiness, Chasm, and a few others.

Not sure where you got the information in red but you are way off...

 

http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/arey.shtml

 

Expectation for the average AAA team size next generation?
Around 120 people. Aren't we here already?

That's an article from 2005.  AAA budget games have gotten significantly larger.  Granted I was including publishers/QA, contract workers (such as voice actors), and basing it off MMOs mostly (which have significantly larger teams typically).  Even if the number if the 120 number is more accurate, it doesn't diminish the point I was trying to make.

Oh you took off what i was replying too...thats ok i will still post it.  

 

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/189893/Industry_in_flux_What_we_learned_from_Game_Developers_2012_Salary_Survey.php

 

Indies still struggling. Despite the fact that indie devs are receiving more attention than ever before, the average indie still isn't very well-compensated; individual indie developers averaged $23,130 (down $420 from 2011), and members of indie teams averaged $19,487.

 

Btw the average Dev is around $83K  so yeah indie devs do not make more the AAA devs.  

My links are Doop approved.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5176

7/11/14 4:06:29 PM#59
Originally posted by allday88
Originally posted by AIMonster
Originally posted by allday88
Originally posted by AIMonster

I know I'm going a little offtopic here, but:

Why are some of you hating on indie games so much?  You can have your next triple A game like Call of Duty, and I'll continue enjoying games like Journey, Dungeon Defenders, Bastion, Transistor, Recettear, Amensia, Fez, LIMBO, World of Goo, Hotline Miami, etc.  As far as advertising and budget goes, when you are paying less than 10 developers to work on a game as opposed to 400+ you typically see in a modern triple A game, then you don't need to sell as many copies of a game so an advertising budget does not become as important.

I'm willing to bet that the average developer who worked on a game like Bastion made more per year than the average developer who worked on any of the huge triple A titles which is a better measurement of success than sheer number of copies sold.

There is no need to hate on indie titles.  Sure, there is a lot more crap out there (debatable though, as there is plenty of triple A shovelware too) than triple A titles, but that doesn't mean you don't get a few - well more than a few - gems every once in a while.  I play a lot of both triple A and indie titles, and one of my most anticipated titles this year is No Man's Sky which is an indie game as well as looking forward to a few others like Rime, Shiness, Chasm, and a few others.

Not sure where you got the information in red but you are way off...

 

http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/arey.shtml

 

Expectation for the average AAA team size next generation?
Around 120 people. Aren't we here already?

That's an article from 2005.  AAA budget games have gotten significantly larger.  Granted I was including publishers/QA, contract workers (such as voice actors), and basing it off MMOs mostly (which have significantly larger teams typically).  Even if the number if the 120 number is more accurate, it doesn't diminish the point I was trying to make.

Oh you took off what i was replying too...thats ok i will still post it.  

 

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/189893/Industry_in_flux_What_we_learned_from_Game_Developers_2012_Salary_Survey.php

 

Indies still struggling. Despite the fact that indie devs are receiving more attention than ever before, the average indie still isn't very well-compensated; individual indie developers averaged $23,130 (down $420 from 2011), and members of indie teams averaged $19,487.

 

Btw the average Dev is around $83K  so yeah indie devs do not make more the AAA devs.  

that is most likely the best article every posted here on MMORPG (in my view).

I would like to see them drill down a bit deeper and look at the income for the indie creator vs what they could make as a AAA developer. Reason is I have this unprooven running theory that the good developers might be able to make more money as a start up indie then they could as a AAA developer. That is different from the people they hire.

Having said that, its a very fair and eye opening article

 

Correlation does not imply causation

  allday88

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/10/14
Posts: 318

7/11/14 4:10:47 PM#60

Not sure where you got the information in red but you are way off...

 

http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/arey.shtml

 

Expectation for the average AAA team size next generation?
Around 120 people. Aren't we here already?

That's an article from 2005.  AAA budget games have gotten significantly larger.  Granted I was including publishers/QA, contract workers (such as voice actors), and basing it off MMOs mostly (which have significantly larger teams typically).  Even if the number if the 120 number is more accurate, it doesn't diminish the point I was trying to make.

Oh you took off what i was replying too...thats ok i will still post it.  

 

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/189893/Industry_in_flux_What_we_learned_from_Game_Developers_2012_Salary_Survey.php

 

Indies still struggling. Despite the fact that indie devs are receiving more attention than ever before, the average indie still isn't very well-compensated; individual indie developers averaged $23,130 (down $420 from 2011), and members of indie teams averaged $19,487.

 

Btw the average Dev is around $83K  so yeah indie devs do not make more the AAA devs.  

that is most likely the best article every posted here on MMORPG (in my view).

I would like to see them drill down a bit deeper and look at the income for the indie creator vs what they could make as a AAA developer. Reason is I have this unprooven running theory that the good developers might be able to make more money as a start up indie then they could as a AAA developer. That is different from the people they hire.

Having said that, its a very fair and eye opening article

 

Well glad you liked it...the poster i was replying to mentioned Indie Devs making more than AAA devs, he took it down before i could post but still thought it was a good article.  

My links are Doop approved.

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