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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The state of MMOs 2014 - "A buffet for the masses".

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  0effort

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/20/10
Posts: 104

 
OP  7/11/14 11:01:14 AM#1

If your argument involves sales and numbers and all that finance jazz then you would have no issue admitting that Candy Crush and Flappy Bird are one of the greatest games in the history of gaming. In that respect, sales and numbers do not mean it is a good thing nor mean it is a good game. Cheap or free does not guarantee quality either.

We all knew what would happen when Free 2 Play came around and mostly MMOers from the new age, were so passionate about the idea of FREE as if it meant FREEDOM and the whole mainstream press was embracing something in the same lines. What is ironical though that the same press and new MMoers alike are steadily reaching the same conclusion - they are all reaching the same wall that old MMOers reached when the MMO market was in a stale condition.

"We are bored. We need more. We want more".

Free to play market has been absolutely nothing but fireworks and all it has done is apply reverse engineering - instead of progressing forward to a more complete and unified MMOrpg culture it has dissected that genre into snacks and bites with incomplete PVE & PVP and hidden content through paywalls and paypals. Every single Free 2 Play MMOrpg right now is incomplete and lacks usually basic tools such as a good group finder.

Progression has been reversed and that is exactly why we have got a shitton of MMOrpgs with disgusting graphics, generic and limited character customization, unpolished combat and animations and bad level designs and environments. Calling the F2P scene as mediocre would be a flattery.  In all fronts of story and gameplay the F2P market will make sure that there is always going to be a core expectation missing in order to build up hype for the next generation of gamers.

Therefore we are in this unfortunate situation where WildStar and Final Fantasy: A realm reborn are considered the "best" or have got the most players because they are the most complete MMOrpgs in the market and not a half-ass MMOG. That does not mean they are revolutionary but at least they are heading the right direction.

While the West patiently waits for Phantasy Star Online 2, Blade & Soul, Star Citizen, Destiny (for PC) and Kindom Under Fire II, we are stuck taking breaks by playing other MMOs not of our genre because of lack of competition. And that is where all the juice is at. It is easy to state "No one is forcing you" but when you have no options and there is no competition, you are forced to adapt and not just adapt.  We are not only forced to play those MMOs because there is nothing else good on the market, we are also forced to play niche games with low or unhealthy population such as ArcheAge so time can somehow fly faster.

This has been one of the most ludicrous (for the business), subpar (for the genre) and ridiculous state of gaming where manipulative products of P2W dominate. This is like Steam flooded with indie games to justify that PC gaming is doing good and it still has the most exclusive titles when in reality most of them are byproducts of easy, cheap and intentionally lazy development. And in that respect, MMO is still is a moneycash grabbing  scheme like a bad Kickstarter project.

The pipe dream lives on.

 

 

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4702

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

7/11/14 11:07:30 AM#2

One thing I must dissagree with you on is the snipe at Indie games.

 

very simple and cheap games like the one linked below were extremely fun and enjoyable. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyLoNfH_ieQ

 

It's about a puddle of liquid and all your controls are tilting the camera left and right to drive it. A very trivial concept for 10 bucks...and I found it extremely fun.

 

  apocoluster

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/15/07
Posts: 1299

\m/,

7/11/14 11:10:17 AM#3
Clap clap clap. I agree with nothing you said but I commend you on the elegance of your delivery

No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11515

7/11/14 12:40:23 PM#4
Originally posted by 0effort
 Every single Free 2 Play MMOrpg right now is incomplete and lacks usually basic tools such as a good group finder.

think the Op has not tried ftp RIFT

  User Deleted
7/11/14 12:46:42 PM#5

Its easy to spot a weak argument with the overuse of "we". Learn to speak for yourself.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

7/11/14 12:53:02 PM#6

a few things on this matter.

1. Gaming is an art form. Measuring the quality of Art by dollars sold is when not even factoring in the affects of advertising is...well...terrible.

2. Appealing to the masses is an element of the past. Its no longer a requirement to be successful. Now, good developers quit their jobs at the big firms and end up making MORE money as an indie then they would working for a AAA. This was not realistically as possible before digital distrubution became so wide spread. So now we are entering a phase where its easier for a small group of developers to focus on a small group of gamers and still make great money.

3. If you measure quality of game by the amount of things you can do (which in general is what I do) then indies come out on top by a long shot.

 

Correlation does not imply causation

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12387

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

7/11/14 1:04:25 PM#7
Originally posted by apocoluster
Clap clap clap. I agree with nothing you said but I commend you on the elegance of your delivery

Same here. While I don't agree with the content, it was really enjoyable to read. 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

7/11/14 1:05:15 PM#8
Originally posted by allday88
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

a few things on this matter.

1. Gaming is an art form. Measuring the quality of Art by dollars sold is when not even factoring in the affects of advertising is...well...terrible.

2. Appealing to the masses is an element of the past. Its no longer a requirement to be successful. Now, good developers quit their jobs at the big firms and end up making MORE money as an indie then they would working for a AAA. This was not realistically as possible before digital distrubution became so wide spread. So now we are entering a phase where its easier for a small group of developers to focus on a small group of gamers and still make great money.

3. If you measure quality of game by the amount of things you can do (which in general is what I do) then indies come out on top by a long shot.

 

 

You again with the indie stuff...advertising...you know if these indie games were so awesome they would sell enough to do advertisement and increase their market but they aren't and they don't plain and simple. . I gave you a list of categories and games in each of those categories you have yet to name one game that is better...if the quality of things in said game suck well you can have a million things and the game would still suck. Now until you have some facts or examples of which games are better than please stop with this indie crap. Thanks now go back to crafting you boat and sail away.

lol..

now that logic was funny.

why do they not sell more? BECAUSE THE MASSES DONT KNOW THEY EXIST..

why do the masses not know they exist? BECAUSE THEY DONT ADVERTISE.

For AAA games advertising is more important than the game itself. this is why they spend more money on adds then they do game development. Advertising makes a huge difference.

Correlation does not imply causation

  Tyggs

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/07/14
Posts: 284

7/11/14 1:09:16 PM#9
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by allday88
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

a few things on this matter.

1. Gaming is an art form. Measuring the quality of Art by dollars sold is when not even factoring in the affects of advertising is...well...terrible.

2. Appealing to the masses is an element of the past. Its no longer a requirement to be successful. Now, good developers quit their jobs at the big firms and end up making MORE money as an indie then they would working for a AAA. This was not realistically as possible before digital distrubution became so wide spread. So now we are entering a phase where its easier for a small group of developers to focus on a small group of gamers and still make great money.

3. If you measure quality of game by the amount of things you can do (which in general is what I do) then indies come out on top by a long shot.

 

 

You again with the indie stuff...advertising...you know if these indie games were so awesome they would sell enough to do advertisement and increase their market but they aren't and they don't plain and simple. . I gave you a list of categories and games in each of those categories you have yet to name one game that is better...if the quality of things in said game suck well you can have a million things and the game would still suck. Now until you have some facts or examples of which games are better than please stop with this indie crap. Thanks now go back to crafting you boat and sail away.

lol..

now that logic was funny.

why do they not sell more? BECAUSE THE MASSES DONT KNOW THEY EXIST..

why do the masses not know they exist? BECAUSE THEY DONT ADVERTISE.

For AAA games advertising is more important than the game itself. this is why they spend more money on adds then they do game development. Advertising makes a huge difference.

Also, a 15 second advertisement on primetime TV is more expensive than hiring 3 developers for 3 years worth of work.

  DamonVile

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4891

7/11/14 1:17:13 PM#10
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
 

lol..

now that logic was funny.

why do they not sell more? BECAUSE THE MASSES DONT KNOW THEY EXIST..

why do the masses not know they exist? BECAUSE THEY DONT ADVERTISE.

For AAA games advertising is more important than the game itself. this is why they spend more money on adds then they do game development. Advertising makes a huge difference.

I know about most indie games, I don't play them because so far they're not making the types of games I'm interested in. I doubt many people that frequent gaming sites have never heard of games like worm etc. They still don't seem to be playing them. So lack of advertising obviously isn't the only reason these indie games don't appeal to the masses.

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15642

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

7/11/14 1:18:15 PM#11
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
 

lol..

now that logic was funny.

why do they not sell more? BECAUSE THE MASSES DONT KNOW THEY EXIST..

why do the masses not know they exist? BECAUSE THEY DONT ADVERTISE.

For AAA games advertising is more important than the game itself. this is why they spend more money on adds then they do game development. Advertising makes a huge difference.

Depends on what kind of indies we're looking at really. Indie MMO's quite typically are made with a small subset of players in mind, like those looking for FFA PVP with full loot. ON the other hand you have indies like Flower, or Journey that are simply original quirky ideas, that actually sell really well despite a lack of advertising dollars. They sell well because of word of mouth, and glowing reviews. Word of mouth can be far more powerful long term, in building an install base. Again look to games like Flower or Journey or even Minecraft.

If an Indie doesn't pick up steam there's usually a reason. That reason is typically due to the design and aim of the project. Games with a high amount of player griefing as an example, will never really see massive success long term IMO.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

7/11/14 1:22:08 PM#12
Originally posted by allday88
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by allday88
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

a few things on this matter.

1. Gaming is an art form. Measuring the quality of Art by dollars sold is when not even factoring in the affects of advertising is...well...terrible.

2. Appealing to the masses is an element of the past. Its no longer a requirement to be successful. Now, good developers quit their jobs at the big firms and end up making MORE money as an indie then they would working for a AAA. This was not realistically as possible before digital distrubution became so wide spread. So now we are entering a phase where its easier for a small group of developers to focus on a small group of gamers and still make great money.

3. If you measure quality of game by the amount of things you can do (which in general is what I do) then indies come out on top by a long shot.

 

 

You again with the indie stuff...advertising...you know if these indie games were so awesome they would sell enough to do advertisement and increase their market but they aren't and they don't plain and simple. . I gave you a list of categories and games in each of those categories you have yet to name one game that is better...if the quality of things in said game suck well you can have a million things and the game would still suck. Now until you have some facts or examples of which games are better than please stop with this indie crap. Thanks now go back to crafting you boat and sail away.

lol..

now that logic was funny.

why do they not sell more? BECAUSE THE MASSES DONT KNOW THEY EXIST..

why do the masses not know they exist? BECAUSE THEY DONT ADVERTISE.

For AAA games advertising is more important than the game itself. this is why they spend more money on adds then they do game development. Advertising makes a huge difference.

I like facts now you have said this statement multiple times but I am wondering could you please provide some information, links, articles that backs up your claim that AAA devs spend more on advertisements than the game itself.  Now to make back a statement like this we are going to need multiple games reference because you are lumping all AAA DEVS into that statement.  Now I'm not saying you are wrong but to help out until you provide the information you should probably stop saying it.  Because saying a lie a 1000 times does NOT make it true.  

I really wish people would do some research before calling someone a liar. I also think there is a wikipedia article that says for large games the advertising budget is larger than that development budget but I am still looking.

So now are you ready to apoligize ?

 

http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Tim-Schafer-Compares-Past-Video-Game-Budgets-Current-Budgets-39474.html

From the article: 

Nowadays, a huge portion of a game's budget resides in marketing, in fact, for some games, 200% of the budget will go into marketing while the game itself will cost anywhere between $10 and $20 million to actually design and produce. 

Correlation does not imply causation

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

7/11/14 1:30:05 PM#13
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
 

lol..

now that logic was funny.

why do they not sell more? BECAUSE THE MASSES DONT KNOW THEY EXIST..

why do the masses not know they exist? BECAUSE THEY DONT ADVERTISE.

For AAA games advertising is more important than the game itself. this is why they spend more money on adds then they do game development. Advertising makes a huge difference.

I know about most indie games, I don't play them because so far they're not making the types of games I'm interested in. I doubt many people that frequent gaming sites have never heard of games like worm etc. They still don't seem to be playing them. So lack of advertising obviously isn't the only reason these indie games don't appeal to the masses.

advertising is a huge business and the reason it is is because it works. There is much more to advertising then just making you aware that a game exists. There is also product loyalty manipulation and things of that sort. There is also a lot of money being spent in areas that you are not directly even aware of. 

I think (although I dont know for sure) that most people who shy away from indies do it strickly because they BELIEVE the games should be better if they are higher budget or because they believe that they should play them. More so then actually playing them and giving them a fair shake. Now granted this is my assumption, not factual by any stretch. Part of why I beleive this is because I used to believe if.

 

Correlation does not imply causation

  DamonVile

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4891

7/11/14 1:39:37 PM#14
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
 

lol..

now that logic was funny.

why do they not sell more? BECAUSE THE MASSES DONT KNOW THEY EXIST..

why do the masses not know they exist? BECAUSE THEY DONT ADVERTISE.

For AAA games advertising is more important than the game itself. this is why they spend more money on adds then they do game development. Advertising makes a huge difference.

I know about most indie games, I don't play them because so far they're not making the types of games I'm interested in. I doubt many people that frequent gaming sites have never heard of games like worm etc. They still don't seem to be playing them. So lack of advertising obviously isn't the only reason these indie games don't appeal to the masses.

advertising is a huge business and the reason it is is because it works. There is much more to advertising then just making you aware that a game exists. There is also product loyalty manipulation and things of that sort. There is also a lot of money being spent in areas that you are not directly even aware of. 

I think (although I dont know for sure) that most people who shy away from indies do it strickly because they BELIEVE the games should be better if they are higher budget or because they believe that they should play them. More so then actually playing them and giving them a fair shake. Now granted this is my assumption, not factual by any stretch. Part of why I beleive this is because I used to believe if.

 

Clearly advertising works or they wouldn't spend what they do on it.  But I don't think just advertising something makes it a huge hit. WoW for example isn't popular because of it's ads on TV, it's popular because of what the game offers. 

I'll agree with you that many people don't try indie games and advertising would change that, but keeping them in the game after is 100% on the game itself. That is where they lose me. So in your original statement that they're not popular because of a lack of advertising...I'll still have to disagree. Like others have posted. Even without it a good game will grow it's population. Not many indie's can make that claim.

  nbtscan

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/06/06
Posts: 476

7/11/14 1:40:02 PM#15
Originally posted by allday88
I like facts now you have said this statement multiple times but I am wondering could you please provide some information, links, articles that backs up your claim that AAA devs spend more on advertisements than the game itself.  Now to make back a statement like this we are going to need multiple games reference because you are lumping all AAA DEVS into that statement.  Now I'm not saying you are wrong but to help out until you provide the information you should probably stop saying it.  Because saying a lie a 1000 times does NOT make it true.  

Activision dumped $500 million into Destiny for marketing purposes, so there's that.

Anyway, to respond to the post all I have is this old saying:  "You get what you pay for."  This sums up F2P games in a nutshell since you only have a very small fraction of the people playing them actually putting forth any money while the vast majority of your players are freeloaders contributing nothing.  

This is why their quality will never match a "good" sub game because they will never have a stable amount of income and have to prioritize how they spend their money, opposed to having a developmental roadmap for the next year or two laid out because you know you're going to have a consistent stream of money coming in.

I will happily continue to fork over my monthly sub to FFXIV if they continue to release the quality and quantity of content they have been up until now.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

7/11/14 1:46:53 PM#16
Originally posted by allday88
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by allday88
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by allday88
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

a few things on this matter.

1. Gaming is an art form. Measuring the quality of Art by dollars sold is when not even factoring in the affects of advertising is...well...terrible.

2. Appealing to the masses is an element of the past. Its no longer a requirement to be successful. Now, good developers quit their jobs at the big firms and end up making MORE money as an indie then they would working for a AAA. This was not realistically as possible before digital distrubution became so wide spread. So now we are entering a phase where its easier for a small group of developers to focus on a small group of gamers and still make great money.

3. If you measure quality of game by the amount of things you can do (which in general is what I do) then indies come out on top by a long shot.

 

 

You again with the indie stuff...advertising...you know if these indie games were so awesome they would sell enough to do advertisement and increase their market but they aren't and they don't plain and simple. . I gave you a list of categories and games in each of those categories you have yet to name one game that is better...if the quality of things in said game suck well you can have a million things and the game would still suck. Now until you have some facts or examples of which games are better than please stop with this indie crap. Thanks now go back to crafting you boat and sail away.

lol..

now that logic was funny.

why do they not sell more? BECAUSE THE MASSES DONT KNOW THEY EXIST..

why do the masses not know they exist? BECAUSE THEY DONT ADVERTISE.

For AAA games advertising is more important than the game itself. this is why they spend more money on adds then they do game development. Advertising makes a huge difference.

I like facts now you have said this statement multiple times but I am wondering could you please provide some information, links, articles that backs up your claim that AAA devs spend more on advertisements than the game itself.  Now to make back a statement like this we are going to need multiple games reference because you are lumping all AAA DEVS into that statement.  Now I'm not saying you are wrong but to help out until you provide the information you should probably stop saying it.  Because saying a lie a 1000 times does NOT make it true.  

I really wish people would do some research before calling someone a liar. I also think there is a wikipedia article that says for large games the advertising budget is larger than that development budget but I am still looking.

So now are you ready to apoligize ?

 

http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Tim-Schafer-Compares-Past-Video-Game-Budgets-Current-Budgets-39474.html

From the article: 

Nowadays, a huge portion of a game's budget resides in marketing, in fact, for some games, 200% of the budget will go into marketing while the game itself will cost anywhere between $10 and $20 million to actually design and produce. 

 

Ok jumping the sensitivity gun a little bit there. I didn't call you a liar a matter a fact I said " I am not saying you are wrong".

Now I'm not making the claim you are I just asked for some info to back up what you are saying. But instead you post a link to where you get your rhetoric from. I asked for links, information not once in that article did he provide any just a bunch of numbers thrown together in an effort to back up your rhetoric, who knows maybe you even wrote that... 

 

Anywho anytime you want to post any legit facts feel free...

do you have any idea how predictable it is for this to happen. Its so common place its almost comical

poster 1: please post proof

poster 2: posts a link

poster 1: article is biased. I will believe what I want to believe without having any evidence at all to back up what I believe.

is it really any wonder why poster 2 gets a little pissed off when they have to spend 30mins looking for one link?

 

Correlation does not imply causation

  User Deleted
7/11/14 2:03:51 PM#17


Originally posted by SEANMCAD
]do you have any idea how predictable it is for this to happen. Its so common place its almost comical

poster 1: please post proof

poster 2: posts a link

poster 1: article is biased. I will believe what I want to believe without having any evidence at all to back up what I believe.

is it really any wonder why poster 2 gets a little pissed off when they have to spend 30mins looking for one link?

 


I dunno, maybe you shouldnt present your opinions as facts and then back them up with further opinion pieces. Its ok to have a respectable opinion. I wont shoot you down just because you're saying how you feel about something from your observations. Let it go, man. Dont worry about being heard so much. We can all read here (hopefully).

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15642

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

7/11/14 2:09:58 PM#18
Originally posted by Foomerang

 


Originally posted by SEANMCAD
]do you have any idea how predictable it is for this to happen. Its so common place its almost comical

 

poster 1: please post proof

poster 2: posts a link

poster 1: article is biased. I will believe what I want to believe without having any evidence at all to back up what I believe.

is it really any wonder why poster 2 gets a little pissed off when they have to spend 30mins looking for one link?

 


 

I dunno, maybe you shouldnt present your opinions as facts and then back them up with further opinion pieces. Its ok to have a respectable opinion. I wont shoot you down just because you're saying how you feel about something from your observations. Let it go, man. Dont worry about being heard so much. We can all read here (hopefully).

 

+1

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

7/11/14 2:12:25 PM#19
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Foomerang

 


Originally posted by SEANMCAD
]do you have any idea how predictable it is for this to happen. Its so common place its almost comical

 

poster 1: please post proof

poster 2: posts a link

poster 1: article is biased. I will believe what I want to believe without having any evidence at all to back up what I believe.

is it really any wonder why poster 2 gets a little pissed off when they have to spend 30mins looking for one link?

 


 

I dunno, maybe you shouldnt present your opinions as facts and then back them up with further opinion pieces. Its ok to have a respectable opinion. I wont shoot you down just because you're saying how you feel about something from your observations. Let it go, man. Dont worry about being heard so much. We can all read here (hopefully).

 

+1

I swear to god I will never post a link again.

you all want to believe whatever comes to your head without having read a single article to suggest you might actually might be right...that is how you guys role and that is not the soup I swim in.

The double standard some of you show is amazing...

Correlation does not imply causation

  User Deleted
7/11/14 2:19:43 PM#20


Originally posted by SEANMCAD
I swear to god I will never post a link again.

you all want to believe whatever comes to your head without having read a single article to suggest you might actually might be right...that is how you guys role and that is not the soup I swim in.

The double standard some of you show is amazing...


Im just saying that in my experiences, discussions here are a lot more productive when the focus is less on trying to be right and more about conveying personal experience to support a point of view.

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