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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Anyone else love endgame but hate leveling?

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45 posts found
  Valkaern

Novice Member

Joined: 7/23/03
Posts: 513

7/11/14 12:57:53 PM#21

I'm the opposite. I've always had more fun leveling - before nightly raid grinds became a thing. Remember MMOs when raids were a special occasion once in a week or two, rather than a nightly certainty? That was way cooler. I tend to lose interest once the scope narrows and the only options for 'advancement' is an endless procession of gear upgrades.

Running the same raids night after night in the same rooms, the same routine, is the exact opposite of adventure. However slowly becoming more and more powerful, advancing to new lands, exploring the unknown - that's where the adventure is for me.

I stuck with EQ endgame raiding for about 6 years but only for the friends a sense of loyalty to our guild, I was eager for the next adventure the whole time. It wasn't the gameplay that kept us around.

We tend to 'play through' new MMOs once or twice these days (depending on if we want to lvl more than one character), dropping them once we've hit max level since we know what's coming, and what's coming is not as exciting as starting a new adventure.

I wish it were different, and I hope developers do find a way to keep the sense of progression, wonder, advancement and exploration that comes with leveling going beyond the current system of just upgrading gear. That system fails to keep me and many like me interested and subbing. 

  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3613

7/11/14 12:59:55 PM#22
I actually enjoy leveling....Once I hit "endgame" its the end of that game for me.....I always need some kind of carrot to keep me going and the gear treadmill isnt it.
  Valkaern

Novice Member

Joined: 7/23/03
Posts: 513

7/11/14 1:02:48 PM#23
Originally posted by laserit

The two terms "leveling" and "endgame" are pretty much accomplishing the same thing, which is "progression"

 

I hate the term "endgame" as well as "leveling"  IMHO these two terms do a great disservice to the genre as they both imply an end. An end is something you don't want to reach in a good MMORPG.

 

Personally I'd like my MMORPG of choice to be a virtual world full of mystery, where no one knows when or where the "endgame" ends.

 

Endgame is pretty much synonymous with raiding these days, while leveling isn't.

While both do revolve around progression, they're without a doubt very different gaming experiences.

  Dibdabs

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/29/08
Posts: 2462

7/11/14 1:21:40 PM#24
Reaching to point of being able to play endgame content is when I leave the game entirely and play something else. "Endgame" just means they ran out of ideas and put some tediously repetitive content there simply to please the sheeple.
  laserit

Elite Member

Joined: 3/24/10
Posts: 1466

Confusius say: Man who go to bed with itchy bum wake up with stinky finger

7/11/14 1:24:13 PM#25
Originally posted by Valkaern
Originally posted by laserit

The two terms "leveling" and "endgame" are pretty much accomplishing the same thing, which is "progression"

 

I hate the term "endgame" as well as "leveling"  IMHO these two terms do a great disservice to the genre as they both imply an end. An end is something you don't want to reach in a good MMORPG.

 

Personally I'd like my MMORPG of choice to be a virtual world full of mystery, where no one knows when or where the "endgame" ends.

 

Endgame is pretty much synonymous with raiding these days, while leveling isn't.

While both do revolve around progression, they're without a doubt very different gaming experiences.

If that be the case, then the title of the thread should be changed from "Anyone else love endgame but hate leveling" to "Anyone else love raiding but hate any other kind of progression" 

 

In the end it all boils down to the fact that it is just different types of content. And if you hate the leveling, it has more to do with the content lacking for your preference, then it does the fact that you are "leveling".

 

I'm  still hoping to see an MMORPG release that starts right at the "endgame". It really is a term that I would like to see, layed to rest. It would be much more healthy for the genre.

I made a double sided USB cable and I plugged my Console into my PC... or did I plug my PC into my Console? Anyway I can now play Console games on my PC! and play PC games on my Console!

FRIGGING AWESOME!

  Orious

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/09/08
Posts: 357

7/11/14 1:28:32 PM#26

For an MMORPG the experience of your character gaining in power through traveling through the world should be just as important as the point where you character is mostly maximized. "End Game" use to not be a term thrown around because enjoyment was experienced throughout the entire process. Now in the "End Game" era...anything prior to reaching maximum level is put on the backburner. I feel like people who don't want to level or who just rush through an "important" part of playing a role-playing game in general should just stick with action/adventure/FPS mmos that focus more on dungeon crawling etc. I know people are going to try to flame me for saying that...but it's like taking the technology upgrades out of an RTS game. You could have a strategic game without upgrading... 

My suggestion would be play something like "Vindictus" or "Rakion". There are games that understand people just want to experience dungeons or "e-sports PvP". Yes there is leveling in it, but you get more or less the same content at all levels. I don't think these games have an "FFA PvP" ruleset at all,  though. It wouldn't make any sense for them to.

I would however, love to see an MMORPG where leveling and maturing your character wasn't as huge a difference as it is in current MMORPG games. The "Power" Everyone shouldn't become a "god"...however, it should be possible for a small amount of people to reach that level for a limited time. This type of thing is mainly a requirement for a sandbox style game, though. Themeparks wouldn't really benefit from that at all.

  Tolmos

Novice Member

Joined: 8/26/10
Posts: 131

 
OP  7/11/14 1:54:49 PM#27
Originally posted by laserit

In the end it all boils down to the fact that it is just different types of content. And if you hate the leveling, it has more to do with the content lacking for your preference, then it does the fact that you are "leveling".

This is almost true for me, very close to being, but not entirely. My main issue with leveling is that it gates me from those I want to play with more than endgame raiding/dungeoning.

If I'm level 10 and my friend is level 30, and I log into the game, then him coming back to level 10 land with me and trying to play beside me will result in my losing out of tons of XP (most games reduce your XP greatly if a high level is in your group), and for him he would be 1 shotting everything. No enjoyment; downright punishing to try to play together.

However, at "endgame", if I and he are max level it is different; it comes down to item levels. Say my item level is (arbitrary numbers here) 100 and his is 150- when I log in, we can both do a dungeon that is appropriate for me and gives me gear. Him joining my dungeon does not in any way remove from my rewards, and in MOST games I have played, him alone being overleveled for the content will not make the dungeon so easy that it becomes boring. The rest of the group being undergeared/appropriately geared will at least make him have to do a little work.

That's where my issue lies. There is an absolute, insurmountable, gate to stop me from being social when leveling, but at max level and raiding/dungeoning, the gate is existent but can be worked around to an extent.

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  User Deleted
7/11/14 10:21:57 PM#28
Originally posted by Dibdabs
Reaching to point of being able to play endgame content is when I leave the game entirely and play something else. "Endgame" just means they ran out of ideas and put some tediously repetitive content there simply to please the sheeple.

I very agree with the above even though I'm actually guilty of grinding every new tier added to FFXIV ARR I am getting sick of it as every tier comes with even more grind of same content on and on.

I enjoyed FFXIV 1.0 where I leveled all classes/jobs to level cap and did all their quests and artifacts.

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

7/12/14 4:19:26 AM#29
Not me, I only play the leveling portion and I retire any and all characters that reach end-game.  I can't stand raiding, I hate PvP with a passion and the gear grind is obnoxious.  If I'm not leveling, I'm not interested.

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  Maelwydd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 1161

7/12/14 4:30:47 AM#30

I disagree.

Endgame for me is the point where....the game ends.

The problem is, MMO's have forgotten to include things into games to want me to stay in the game once I reach that point. If levelling is the only carrot then when I reach max level there is no point continuing to play.

If I want to start at max level....there are FPS games or driving games or SPG's I can play where I simply play for fun but an MMO, for me, must include more then a single carrot.

 

  theAsna

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/16/09
Posts: 303

7/12/14 6:19:52 AM#31

Actually in MMORPGs things evolved "upside down".

It seems to me that players are literally chasing the "pot of gold at the end of the rainbow". Instead of enjoying a game right here and now they do certain things/ activities because they expect the fun to suddenly jump from behind the next shrub/ corner. *yay*

There is no power cap since first there is some level advancement and at a later point this shifts ever more to equipment acquirement. There is a "false hope" to find more players at level cap to team up with than during the journey. Two in-game characters at level cap can be very far apart in regard to acquired power. So there will still be difficulties when doing challenging group content.

The journey itself, exploring the game's world, interacting with the environment (NPCs and PCs) and training and improving your in-game charcater should be the focus of an RPG. Eventually an in-game character gets shelved and the game starts anew.

Take your time, there are other players around you. Don't rush to some non-exitsant arbitrary frontier (i.e. level cap). Farming and repeating the same content rather feels like working on an assembly line. Don't lose the reason(s) for playing games or else the fun might evaporate. During the journey the chances are good to meet new people to play with. At the "end game" far too often a utilitarian mindset prevails.
  kikosforever

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/02/14
Posts: 489

7/12/14 6:28:37 AM#32
I hate both questing and leveling in mmo's. I hate levels too. I want just end game play and progression / customization of my character. I also hate alts. I want to be able to play everything a game offers with one and only char.
  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6749

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

7/12/14 7:05:52 AM#33

I don't like using terminology or pick parts of a game,i want a full fledged great GAME to play.I don't want part of a game because then it is not a game just a real weak effort by the developer.I am not paying money to half ass developers and most certainly i am not ever paying for any Alpha or Beta access either.

Supporting a developer that can't make a complete game that is fun to play sets a terrible precedent might as well just give them free money and not even play their game.

I have said this before on several occasions ,there is NOTHING that needs to separate any end game from the main game,you can accomplish anything end game DURING the game.The slack use of the term end-game really tells me it is a WOW era of gaming term used to describe nothing more than "boring game,let's just kill Bosses".News flash you can kill bosses AND have instances and Raids and loot drops at every single level of a game,no need for lame l33t terms like end-game.

Using the term "end-game" is a very loose use of the term,it means nothing and proves that you are supporting a superficial reason to game.It is like using the term FUN,it really means nothing unless you know what FUN means to that individual.

Game development is almost like price fixing,everyone is doing the same thing so that nobody pushes each other to do better.

 

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  Reklaw

Elite Member

Joined: 1/07/06
Posts: 6165

The adult I am takes care of most things real life. However my inner-child is a GAMER!!

7/12/14 12:49:28 PM#34

OP mind mentioning which of these MMORPG of the old didn't involve some form of leveling?

Apart from that perhaps it's time to be looking more towards sandbox type of games instead trying these Themepark.

I honostly see them as different from each other, yet when I read complaints it's clear most don't as with themepark for some reason people want it to have sandbox feature's, which can be done within the limits of it's game engine though never fully sandbox due to the nature of the construction of the game. Then we have sandbox and hear people complaining they need more "handholding"

As for my past experiance with MMORPG what I miss is the feeling of a virtual world, I really do not need endgame if it's themepark as then the game shifts to doing dungeons/raids/PVP. I want to do these things during my virtual life in that world and not when I reach cap lvl.

I really never care about endgame with themeparks as I personaly get better experiance in normal multiplayer games. I care about the journey and when it's themepark it better presents me with good lore/story and quests yet it also needs to provide me with a certain extend of freedom. I can't stand MMORPG that are on rails. And even if a themepark is most like very much on rails it needs to have the options I personaly want that grants me certain freedom, else I aint playing.

Sandbox however the journey never ends due to it's more virtual world feel regardless if you reach cap lvl/skills/ability's there is much that keeps me going.

Prime example for me was SWG, our guild town(s) kept growing, customer base for my/our shops etc as there was alwas demand for stuff ranging from furniture, armor, weapons, spaceships, vehicles, houses, harvesters, tools, pets you name it we could make it.

Majority of games has changed aswell as it's player base since most seem more interested in endgame and want the journey to be gone. To me with those I played we never where intrested in reaching cap lvl it was all about "being there living that life of your virtual self"

EQ never connected with me even though I know it was a good game but it also felt more like a game then when I set foot in SWG, and regardless my previous experiance with Meridian59, AO, UO SWG was the game I thought would lead into the future of MMORPG. Unfortunaly for me I was wrong and we got more game then worlds.

 

  Foobarx

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/16/14
Posts: 459

7/12/14 1:03:59 PM#35

LOL, if you stripped the game down to actual "end game"... meaning there is no gear grind, no level grind, no progression grind, all you'd have is the same 5 instances to do for an entire year.  No loot, no titles, no rewards, nothing but killing the same bosses over and over again... for no reason whatsoever other than they are there.

  Amjoco

Elite Member

Joined: 9/15/10
Posts: 3880

7/12/14 1:05:34 PM#36
In truth isn't endgame just another form of leveling?

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  Foobarx

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/16/14
Posts: 459

7/12/14 1:08:21 PM#37
Originally posted by Amjoco
In truth isn't endgame just another form of leveling?

DING! DING! DING! DING!

 

You win the big prize!

 

You are absolutely correct!

 

  Tolmos

Novice Member

Joined: 8/26/10
Posts: 131

 
OP  7/12/14 1:12:02 PM#38
Originally posted by Reklaw

Apart from that perhaps it's time to be looking more towards sandbox type of games instead trying these Themepark.

 

If you have a suggestion for a good Sandbox that is out right now, I'm all ears. I've been looking for a good one since Shadowbane went defunct. I've only found 3, and they didn't quite suit me. Darkfall was... well, Darkfall. Mortal Online was fun, but it had a latency that messed me up a bit. That may have changed, this was a couple years back, but it caused strange things to happen in combat that turned me off on it. And EVE I played for a while- got up to 46 mil SP on my character and then called it quits; the system itself is great, but the combat was a little on the boring side.

If you happen to know of any others outside of those 3 that would be worth trying, I'll definitely give them a go. You could be right- it could be that themeparks aren't for me, and I'm floundering about looking for what I want in all the wrong places.

http://imgur.com/a/kU0qS
Players of Balmung- a compilation of different characters I've come across during my adventures in FFXIV ARR.

  k61977

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/25/12
Posts: 113

7/12/14 1:21:40 PM#39

IMHO I believe the word endgame was the worst thing to ever happen to MMO's.  MMO's are suppose to be about the journey not some magic number that states now I can do the same things over and over so I can get the best gear, etc. 

 

Personally I prefer leveling, I like getting new skills, new items etc.  This doesn't have to be number leveling like 1-50, it can be just using a skill increases it.  But it is leveling when you sit down and think about it.  I personally would love to see an MMO with no level cap in todays game pool that isn't 10 years old.  It could be something as in you gain .1 percent of a skill for each level but if you played for 10 years straight you became a god because of having no life.  But that would be your decision to make.

  Reklaw

Elite Member

Joined: 1/07/06
Posts: 6165

The adult I am takes care of most things real life. However my inner-child is a GAMER!!

7/12/14 1:28:29 PM#40
Originally posted by Tolmos
Originally posted by Reklaw

Apart from that perhaps it's time to be looking more towards sandbox type of games instead trying these Themepark.

 

If you have a suggestion for a good Sandbox that is out right now, I'm all ears. I've been looking for a good one since Shadowbane went defunct. I've only found 3, and they didn't quite suit me. Darkfall was... well, Darkfall. Mortal Online was fun, but it had a latency that messed me up a bit. That may have changed, this was a couple years back, but it caused strange things to happen in combat that turned me off on it. And EVE I played for a while- got up to 46 mil SP on my character and then called it quits; the system itself is great, but the combat was a little on the boring side.

If you happen to know of any others outside of those 3 that would be worth trying, I'll definitely give them a go. You could be right- it could be that themeparks aren't for me, and I'm floundering about looking for what I want in all the wrong places.

I wished I could man....There arn't any out I want to play as I don't want full PVP because in a sandbox nothing should be forced not even PVP everything should be optional or atleast make sense. Love all of EVE feature's yet the whole being a spaceship kinda never connected with me but it's a game I do respect.

For now I carved my own little niche within themepark games till "THAT" sandbox virtual world will come. But have toned down expecting themepark games to be more then they can be and play them if they are fun to me. My expectations of sandbox games is pretty high which is the main reason I hvn't found that one to call "home"

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