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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The word "endgame" really ticks me off

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78 posts found
  TheQuietGamer

Novice Member

Joined: 6/02/14
Posts: 330

7/09/14 11:11:25 PM#41
Originally posted by Rhinotones
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Torgrim

I so much hate the word endgame, why are endgame 2-3 dungeons you have to do hundreds of times to get the gear you want then it will be obselete when the next update goes live.

Why has this obselete gameplay been so popular, why do you like this kind of gameplay?, I mean as soon as you got everything you have you have start all over again, everything you have invested, time, money are gone.

Why do you like endgame?

 

we raid to kill the unkillable. 

 

it's not about the loot, it's about the chess game between our characters and the much stronger AI opponent.

 

Gear comes and goes, the endgame remains the same. We love this consistency. Some of us hate change.

Raids are not a chess game - they are puzzles.

Puzzle Definition - a GAME, toy, or problem designed to test ingenuity or knowledge.

Chess Definition - a board GAME of strategic skill for two players

 

Much stronger AI opponent????

Similar to WoWs tiered raiding levels, chess programs are designed to play and varying levels of difficulty to challenge people. I believe though his reference to much stronger AI opponents is at a one on one level where we'd as a single entity would be crushed hence his term "between our characters (plural)"

 

No, if raids were chess games with super strong AI, nobody would complete them as chess programs can beat chess pros with ease, and the number of chess pros Raiding is exceedingly small.

It would be an interesting exercise to gather 20 of the top 100 chess players in the world and collectively pit them against the current strongest chess engine. Remember that even the strongest chess engine in the world does not have a 100% strike rate against humans.

 

 Again Raids are group puzzles - once figured out, most raiding  guilds have them on farm status in no time.

Equating raids to chess is just beyond wrong.

 Have you been to Karazhan?  ;)

 

If you think you can refute everyone's opinions in one neat little post, it probably means you are A) arrogant and B) too arrogant to realise you are wrong.  

  iixviiiix

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 566

7/09/14 11:48:47 PM#42

If you know how much work and skill need to unite tops guilds to raid the toughest open-world bosses then so call instance "endgame" with LFR is a fun joke.

It not only dance with boss and collect gears but also build the trust between player and unite or deal with rival guilds.

Only few player with real skill able to do it , remind me the old guild masters .

 

RPG not only about skill to dodge the boss's attack but also skill to social with other , able to build up army of players to over come the challenge.

Who among you here able to do such thing ?

  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2820

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

7/09/14 11:55:30 PM#43
Originally posted by TheQuietGamer
Originally posted by Torgrim

I so much hate the word endgame, why are endgame 2-3 dungeons you have to do hundreds of times to get the gear you want then it will be obselete when the next update goes live.

Why has this obselete gameplay been so popular, why do you who love this kind of gameplay love it?, I mean as soon as you got everything you have you have start all over again, everything you have invested, time, money are gone.

Why do you like endgame?

 

It should be about the journey, not the destination.  That's what I think anyway.  I find the standard end-game gear grind tedious beyond comprehension.    

It should be about the journey only as long as that journey is deep, lengthy and meaningful.  I am one of the biggest detractors of old school MMO design as I often state people look through rose tinted glasses at the past.  Many of the elements of old school MMO's are horrible game decisions but the one thing they got extremely right was that it took a LONG time to reach level cap.  I want an MMO that takes the hardest of the hardcore at minimum 6 months to reach but I'd love to see an MMO that took years to reach max level.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Kiljaedenas

Novice Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 467

To err is human, but to really f*ck things up you need a computer.

7/10/14 11:18:12 AM#44
Originally posted by c0exist
Originally posted by reemi

I'm pretty sure most players never played the same mmorpg games for years. So you won't find a lot of people that love raids/dungeons or pvp endgame. 

I played WoW from 2004 to 2013, and at the beginning it was just a leveling game. But after a while, you understand that a mmorpg start at last level.  I only love endgame, I hate leveling .

And this is the mentality that grants us the crappy games we have.  Single player linear crap to max in a free weekend then play the lobby game "wait for the dungeon queue" to open up.  When the term endgame started being a common term used among mmo gamers is when the quality of the genre really diminished. 

No kidding. Reemi, seriously...an mmorpg "starts" at last level?! So all that time spent leveling through the multitude of areas, seeing all the sites and stories that the developers did (or at least we hope they did) put long hours of careful work to craft for your enjoyment benefit, as you plan out the future tactics you'll use for your character when planning their build as you go...is all a waste?

You may think that way, but I can tell you with absolute certainty that is NOT a universal rule that everyone "understands" as you put it, or even believes in.

Where's the any key?

  Foobarx

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/16/14
Posts: 459

7/10/14 11:38:06 AM#45

I remember buying this 6 foot tall cat tree at Petco once.  It had the sisal rope, the hanging toys, plush carpeting, three levels and curved rests.  Thought that this thing would be a cat's dream playground.  Got it home.  The cats were all excited by the big box.  I said wait, I'll open it soon and you will see what a wonderful toy I just got you.  I carefully extracted the tree from the box and placed it in the center of the room for them to see.  I look around and not a cat to be seen.  They were all in the box.  I said the tree is the gift, not the box.  They thought the box was the best thing in the world.

 

Kids are very much the same... sometimes it's their own inventiveness that makes even the simplest of things entertaining.

 

That's were games have gone wrong... instead of just letting us do our thing, they think they are compelled to tell us it's the cat tree we're supposed to be playing with, not the box that it came in.  Why?  Why should we see raiding as the game?  Why should we see leveling as the game?  The game should be whatever we make it to be.  It's our cardboard box.  That toy inside the box is cool and all, but not nearly as cool as the box itself.  I suppose that is what all the sandbox hoopla is all about... getting back to the cardboard box... but if you are given a cardboard box, isn't it now the toy you ignored before?  What I am trying to say is, sand is only cool if you discover what you can do with it on your own... being told that it can do something sort of takes away from the coolness of it.  The cardboard box was cool because it wasn't the gift to begin with... they made it into a gift.  Games should be that way.  What we make of them, not what others envisioned it should be.  People should find their own magic cardboard box in each one instead of being told that it is there.

  Nadia

Tipster

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11691

7/10/14 11:42:03 AM#46
Originally posted by Foobarx

  (The cats) were all in the box.  I said the tree is the gift, not the box.  They thought the box was the best thing in the world.

Kids are very much the same... sometimes it's their own inventiveness that makes even the simplest of things entertaining.

great story

  ReallyNow10

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1695

Don't give us stories. Give us worlds and we will make our own stories.

7/10/14 12:49:05 PM#47
Originally posted by TheQuietGamer
Originally posted by Torgrim

I so much hate the word endgame, why are endgame 2-3 dungeons you have to do hundreds of times to get the gear you want then it will be obselete when the next update goes live.

Why has this obselete gameplay been so popular, why do you who love this kind of gameplay love it?, I mean as soon as you got everything you have you have start all over again, everything you have invested, time, money are gone.

Why do you like endgame?

 

It should be about the journey, not the destination.  That's what I think anyway.  I find the standard end-game gear grind tedious beyond comprehension.    

Absolutely.  Endgame is a goal a player should strive for, but weep at when finally achieving.  The "always one more hill over the rise" keeps a game going.  Once the mystery is gone, it's gone.

  nariusseldon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

7/10/14 1:45:33 PM#48
Originally posted by ryvendark

I think there was a time when raiding was what the majority wanted to do with their end game. But with the number of vets in the genre that have seen it done it and have the purple armor, it's time as the only real choice of what to do has long past. If games want to keep people around after the levels run out they're going to need to figure out something new. Raiding is not the be all end all thing to do anymore.

 

How about small group random dungeons? It works pretty well in D3 and other ARPGs.

 

  Gorwe

Elite Member

Joined: 9/16/11
Posts: 1891

7/10/14 3:40:11 PM#49
I fully understand that some like other things than I do. I also understand that it's MY CHOICE whether to touch or not to touch aforementioned endgame.

With that said, modern MMO "endgame" is yet another bland, boring thing invented by, you guessed it, World of Failcraft. WoW was, is and will be just a bland game that tried to mix Everquest with Diablo. It's such a travesty! Diablo itself is really bland and nonsensical and you try to correlate it with EQ? Lol! The sad fact is, it worked for them. Big time. And now we have a bunch of MMOs that don't even resemble MMOs. Endgames with NO impact on the world(!), NO interesting player encounters, on rails, etc.

I could've liked endgame of yore.
I HATE endgame of today.
  nariusseldon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

7/10/14 5:15:39 PM#50
Originally posted by Gorwe
I fully understand that some like other things than I do. I also understand that it's MY CHOICE whether to touch or not to touch aforementioned endgame.

With that said, modern MMO "endgame" is yet another bland, boring thing invented by, you guessed it, World of Failcraft. WoW was, is and will be just a bland game that tried to mix Everquest with Diablo. It's such a travesty! Diablo itself is really bland and nonsensical and you try to correlate it with EQ? Lol! The sad fact is, it worked for them. Big time. And now we have a bunch of MMOs that don't even resemble MMOs. Endgames with NO impact on the world(!), NO interesting player encounters, on rails, etc.

I could've liked endgame of yore.
I HATE endgame of today.

Diablo is 100x more fun than EQ for me .. and of course it works because your preference is not shared by most in the market.

And no ... i am not interested in a world ... I am interested in fun game modes like those in Diablo. (Don't tell me you don't know that diablo is fun for many).

 

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4769

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

7/11/14 5:20:16 PM#51

why are we talking about diablo on an MMO forum?

 

I've been waiting for a good city-building game since Sierra made Poseidon, but this isn't the appropriate forum to discuss that...

 

edit: MMOs need player-made cities like SWG had.

  Mivi

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/20/13
Posts: 54

7/11/14 9:19:23 PM#52


Originally posted by Robokapp
why are we talking about diablo on an MMO forum?

 

I've been waiting for a good city-building game since Sierra made Poseidon, but this isn't the appropriate forum to discuss that...

 

edit: MMOs need player-made cities like SWG had.


but with which level of graphic?

I'm currently playing a mmorpg with plenty of housing and furnitures customizations
is so heavy I renamed it ram destroyer online.

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4769

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

7/12/14 2:31:37 AM#53
Originally posted by Mivi

 


Originally posted by Robokapp
why are we talking about diablo on an MMO forum?

 

 

I've been waiting for a good city-building game since Sierra made Poseidon, but this isn't the appropriate forum to discuss that...

 

edit: MMOs need player-made cities like SWG had.


 

but with which level of graphic?

I'm currently playing a mmorpg with plenty of housing and furnitures customizations
is so heavy I renamed it ram destroyer online.

Above what single-player games had in 2000. I think that's fair. 

  nariusseldon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

7/12/14 1:33:26 PM#54
Originally posted by Robokapp

why are we talking about diablo on an MMO forum?

Because it is close enough to a MMO for many players?

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4769

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

7/13/14 10:23:04 AM#55
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Robokapp

why are we talking about diablo on an MMO forum?

Because it is close enough to a MMO for many players?

close enough in what sense?

  Twofeet

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/13/14
Posts: 12

7/13/14 10:26:04 AM#56
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Robokapp

why are we talking about diablo on an MMO forum?

Because it is close enough to a MMO for many players?

close enough in what sense?

In the metaphysical libertarian sense obviously...  People on this site need everything explained to them.   

 

  nomotag

Novice Member

Joined: 5/13/14
Posts: 102

7/13/14 1:21:58 PM#57
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Robokapp

why are we talking about diablo on an MMO forum?

Because it is close enough to a MMO for many players?

close enough in what sense?

It's online only. Based around a colorful skinner box and it even had an auction house. It would be hard to argue it's not at least close to a mmo.

  nariusseldon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

7/13/14 6:07:53 PM#58
Originally posted by nomotag
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Robokapp

why are we talking about diablo on an MMO forum?

Because it is close enough to a MMO for many players?

close enough in what sense?

It's online only. Based around a colorful skinner box and it even had an auction house. It would be hard to argue it's not at least close to a mmo.

Yeh ... it has

- instanced dungeon gameplay similar to that in many MMOs

- the same meta theorycrafting seen in many MMOs (builds optimized for dps for example)

- same kind of class qq-ing whenever a skill is nerfed

 

.. the only difference is that it is not pretentious and ditch the quest texts for the grind, and ditch the persistent world which few used.

 

  Cephus404

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

7/13/14 8:59:10 PM#59
Originally posted by Robokapp

 

edit: MMOs need player-made cities like SWG had.

Why?  I've never played an MMO where there were player-made or guild-made cities that I found them to be at all exciting. Most of them were just endless rows of empty buildings and player shops where nothing at all ever happened.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Magiknight

Novice Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 746

7/13/14 9:05:46 PM#60
Originally posted by Torgrim

I so much hate the word endgame, why are endgame 2-3 dungeons you have to do hundreds of times to get the gear you want then it will be obselete when the next update goes live.

Why has this obselete gameplay been so popular, why do you like this kind of gameplay?, I mean as soon as you got everything you have you have start all over again, everything you have invested, time, money are gone.

Why do you like endgame?

 

Endgame should take years to get to

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