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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The word "endgame" really ticks me off

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78 posts found
  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 6411

7/09/14 7:58:08 PM#21

Limited endgame (raids, dungeon runs) is only an issue in those games that use this old design.

There are MMORPGS that do not have such limited endgame, I suggest playing those games instead.

 

  TankYou88

Novice Member

Joined: 6/25/14
Posts: 335

7/09/14 7:58:59 PM#22

For me I enjoy Raiding. It tests your wits. You dont go to school and get mad every year when you pass all your classes and then have to take new classes that are more advanced do you? Its the same thing, you are progressing through content, you learn everything about them and take that knowledge with you for the next set of raids. If you lack the knowledge then you fail.

  TheQuietGamer

Novice Member

Joined: 6/02/14
Posts: 330

7/09/14 7:59:04 PM#23
Originally posted by ryvendark

I think there was a time when raiding was what the majority wanted to do with their end game. But with the number of vets in the genre that have seen it done it and have the purple armor, it's time as the only real choice of what to do has long past. If games want to keep people around after the levels run out they're going to need to figure out something new. Raiding is not the be all end all thing to do anymore.

 

I agree, I think the raiding gear grind has probably past its sell by date.  

Playing GW1 you hit level cap within a few hours but the story, exploration, skill capping and aesthetic gear (plus old fashioned FUN) kept you playing.  

I am looking forward to a game that perhaps disposes with traditional levels but creates a world that is sufficiently immersive to draw players in without recourse to carrot or stick.  

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3451

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

7/09/14 8:03:07 PM#24


Originally posted by Torgrim
Why has this obselete gameplay been so popular,

Question is a fallacy if the "obsolete gameplay" is popular and current.
Majority of people like it and pay for it. That's why its current.

(BTW im not a fan of the model, but that's just how it is).


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  TheQuietGamer

Novice Member

Joined: 6/02/14
Posts: 330

7/09/14 8:05:00 PM#25
Originally posted by Nitth

 


Originally posted by Torgrim
Why has this obselete gameplay been so popular,

 

Question is a fallacy if it is popular and current.
Majority of people like it and pay for it. That's why its current.

(BTW im not a fan of the model, but that's just how it is).

I would disagree for the following reasons: -

  • I have never seen any figures to support that argument. 
  • The retention levels in most mmo's that offer it suggest otherwise (again I cannot back that up with figures).  
  Perjure

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/10/06
Posts: 187

7/09/14 8:10:39 PM#26
Originally posted by DMKano

Limited endgame (raids, dungeon runs) is only an issue in those games that use this old design.

There are MMORPGS that do not have such limited endgame, I suggest playing those games instead.

 

I agree, however for many years I couldn't find a decent MMO to play that did not use this design, unfortunately. Luckily there are now a few that I enjoy and don't have to worry about "endgame" at all.

  Soandsoso

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/08/12
Posts: 552

7/09/14 8:11:19 PM#27

Is this a group therapy thread.....

 

  Quesa

Novice Member

Joined: 6/16/04
Posts: 1265

7/09/14 8:13:55 PM#28

Endgame mostly means that most of the content is provided at max or near max level.  Think of the leveling process training with story.

Gear grinds are pretty close to non-linear progression...what people cry for over an over.

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4817

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

7/09/14 8:15:08 PM#29
Originally posted by Torgrim

I so much hate the word endgame, why are endgame 2-3 dungeons you have to do hundreds of times to get the gear you want then it will be obselete when the next update goes live.

Why has this obselete gameplay been so popular, why do you like this kind of gameplay?, I mean as soon as you got everything you have you have start all over again, everything you have invested, time, money are gone.

Why do you like endgame?

 

we raid to kill the unkillable. 

 

it's not about the loot, it's about the chess game between our characters and the much stronger AI opponent.

 

Gear comes and goes, the endgame remains the same. We love this consistency. Some of us hate change.

  Jaedor

Elite Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 1013

7/09/14 8:15:51 PM#30

I don't mind "endgame" as much as I mind any kind of elitist concept that makes it more than it really is: just another kind of leveling-up grind that may or may not be fun.

  TheQuietGamer

Novice Member

Joined: 6/02/14
Posts: 330

7/09/14 8:16:40 PM#31
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Torgrim

I so much hate the word endgame, why are endgame 2-3 dungeons you have to do hundreds of times to get the gear you want then it will be obselete when the next update goes live.

Why has this obselete gameplay been so popular, why do you like this kind of gameplay?, I mean as soon as you got everything you have you have start all over again, everything you have invested, time, money are gone.

Why do you like endgame?

 

we raid to kill the unkillable. 

 

it's not about the loot, it's about the chess game between our characters and the much stronger AI opponent.

 

Gear comes and goes, the endgame remains the same. We love this consistency. Some of us hate change.

The mistake was comparing it to chess which has a mind-blowing number of possibilities rather than 10 learnt by rote.  

  Igguns

Novice Member

Joined: 5/12/14
Posts: 57

7/09/14 8:17:08 PM#32
Originally posted by TheQuietGamer
Originally posted by Torgrim
Originally posted by TheQuietGamer
Originally posted by Torgrim

I so much hate the word endgame, why are endgame 2-3 dungeons you have to do hundreds of times to get the gear you want then it will be obselete when the next update goes live.

Why has this obselete gameplay been so popular, why do you who love this kind of gameplay love it?, I mean as soon as you got everything you have you have start all over again, everything you have invested, time, money are gone.

Why do you like endgame?

 

It should be about the journey, not the destination.  That's what I think anyway.  I find the standard end-game gear grind tedious beyond comprehension.    

 

Well for some odd reason MMOs are jus tthat way, still plenty of people just like you who dont like it, but we still get this edngame crap.

 

The last time I really enjoyed the journey (other than SWTOR which for all intents and purposes was a single player game) was in vanilla wow.  I made a lot of friends along the way due to the relatively shallow levelling curve and the requirement to group for certain content (and the lack of cross-server dungeon finders etc).  

By the time I hit end-game I wanted to group up and raid just to have a laugh with mates.  Failing did not matter, we all laughed at the idiot who messed up and tried again.  

 

I remember those days.  Precious times.

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3451

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

7/09/14 8:20:31 PM#33


Originally posted by TheQuietGamer

Originally posted by Nitth  

Originally posted by Torgrim Why has this obselete gameplay been so popular,
  Question is a fallacy if it is popular and current. Majority of people like it and pay for it. That's why its current. (BTW im not a fan of the model, but that's just how it is).
I would disagree for the following reasons: -
  • I have never seen any figures to support that argument.  The retention levels in most mmo's that offer it suggest otherwise (again I cannot back that up with figures).  

I know this is mmorpg.com where reality is skewed but in World of Warcraft there is still (what is it now 9.2 million) people paying for that kind of content.

Hundreds of thousands of people still bought wildstar accepting that the game had endgame as a major feature.

Retention: People still burnout, You cant pin that directory to "I don't like endgame"


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4817

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

7/09/14 8:21:38 PM#34
Originally posted by TheQuietGamer
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Torgrim

I so much hate the word endgame, why are endgame 2-3 dungeons you have to do hundreds of times to get the gear you want then it will be obselete when the next update goes live.

Why has this obselete gameplay been so popular, why do you like this kind of gameplay?, I mean as soon as you got everything you have you have start all over again, everything you have invested, time, money are gone.

Why do you like endgame?

 

we raid to kill the unkillable. 

 

it's not about the loot, it's about the chess game between our characters and the much stronger AI opponent.

 

Gear comes and goes, the endgame remains the same. We love this consistency. Some of us hate change.

The mistake was comparing it to chess which has a mind-blowing number of possibilities rather than 10 learnt by rote.  

I can tell your raiding experience is limited to LFR. 

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 6411

7/09/14 8:21:42 PM#35
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Torgrim

I so much hate the word endgame, why are endgame 2-3 dungeons you have to do hundreds of times to get the gear you want then it will be obselete when the next update goes live.

Why has this obselete gameplay been so popular, why do you like this kind of gameplay?, I mean as soon as you got everything you have you have start all over again, everything you have invested, time, money are gone.

Why do you like endgame?

 

we raid to kill the unkillable. 

 

it's not about the loot, it's about the chess game between our characters and the much stronger AI opponent.

 

Gear comes and goes, the endgame remains the same. We love this consistency. Some of us hate change.

Raids are not a chess game - they are puzzles.

Much stronger AI opponent???? No, if raids were chess games with super strong AI, nobody would complete them as chess programs can beat chess pros with ease, and the number of chess pros Raiding is exceedingly small.

 

Again Raids are group puzzles - once figured out, most raiding  guilds have them on farm status in no time.

Equating raids to chess is just beyond wrong.

 

  TheQuietGamer

Novice Member

Joined: 6/02/14
Posts: 330

7/09/14 8:25:12 PM#36
Originally posted by Igguns
Originally posted by TheQuietGamer
Originally posted by Torgrim
Originally posted by TheQuietGamer
Originally posted by Torgrim

I so much hate the word endgame, why are endgame 2-3 dungeons you have to do hundreds of times to get the gear you want then it will be obselete when the next update goes live.

Why has this obselete gameplay been so popular, why do you who love this kind of gameplay love it?, I mean as soon as you got everything you have you have start all over again, everything you have invested, time, money are gone.

Why do you like endgame?

 

It should be about the journey, not the destination.  That's what I think anyway.  I find the standard end-game gear grind tedious beyond comprehension.    

 

Well for some odd reason MMOs are jus tthat way, still plenty of people just like you who dont like it, but we still get this edngame crap.

 

The last time I really enjoyed the journey (other than SWTOR which for all intents and purposes was a single player game) was in vanilla wow.  I made a lot of friends along the way due to the relatively shallow levelling curve and the requirement to group for certain content (and the lack of cross-server dungeon finders etc).  

By the time I hit end-game I wanted to group up and raid just to have a laugh with mates.  Failing did not matter, we all laughed at the idiot who messed up and tried again.  

 

I remember those days.  Precious times.

For me as well.  I wouldn't say it was camaraderie because that is excessive, it was just a bunch of people who enjoyed each others company and did not mind if someone was a loose link, they would carry them.  These days no one knows anyone and if you screw up you are kicked.   

  Mivi

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/20/13
Posts: 60

7/09/14 10:45:05 PM#37

this "endgame" is an illusion, exile

  PaRoXiTiC

Elite Member

Joined: 3/11/08
Posts: 565

7/09/14 10:52:06 PM#38
That is why we need an awesome Sandbox MMORPG. That way there is no end to the game, therefore no "end game" bullcrap.
  Chrisbox

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/15/10
Posts: 1635

7/09/14 10:52:29 PM#39
Originally posted by Torgrim

I so much hate the word endgame, why are endgame 2-3 dungeons you have to do hundreds of times to get the gear you want then it will be obselete when the next update goes live.

Why has this obselete gameplay been so popular, why do you like this kind of gameplay?, I mean as soon as you got everything you have you have start all over again, everything you have invested, time, money are gone.

Why do you like endgame?

 

That's exactly why I like the modern definition endgame.  You answered your own question. The addition of new items that make the older ones less appealing keeps people striving to obtain them and get stronger characters and keeps them subbed to the game, that is why this is popular.  If I'm progressing through the hardest content to get the best gear available then I've gotta be ready for when they add even more challenging content with more gear (that makes the old gear less valuable obviously.)  The whole experience of conquering said content with my group and being rewarded is a great feeling.  

 

Played-Everything
Playing-FFXIV:ARR

  Rhinotones

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/21/13
Posts: 215

Respect people who speak their mind factually and intelligently, and please, never put anyone down.

7/09/14 11:05:43 PM#40
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Torgrim

I so much hate the word endgame, why are endgame 2-3 dungeons you have to do hundreds of times to get the gear you want then it will be obselete when the next update goes live.

Why has this obselete gameplay been so popular, why do you like this kind of gameplay?, I mean as soon as you got everything you have you have start all over again, everything you have invested, time, money are gone.

Why do you like endgame?

 

we raid to kill the unkillable. 

 

it's not about the loot, it's about the chess game between our characters and the much stronger AI opponent.

 

Gear comes and goes, the endgame remains the same. We love this consistency. Some of us hate change.

Raids are not a chess game - they are puzzles.

Puzzle Definition - a GAME, toy, or problem designed to test ingenuity or knowledge.

Chess Definition - a board GAME of strategic skill for two players

 

Much stronger AI opponent????

Similar to WoWs tiered raiding levels, chess programs are designed to play and varying levels of difficulty to challenge people. I believe though his reference to much stronger AI opponents is at a one on one level where we'd as a single entity would be crushed hence his term "between our characters (plural)"

 

No, if raids were chess games with super strong AI, nobody would complete them as chess programs can beat chess pros with ease, and the number of chess pros Raiding is exceedingly small.

It would be an interesting exercise to gather 20 of the top 100 chess players in the world and collectively pit them against the current strongest chess engine. Remember that even the strongest chess engine in the world does not have a 100% strike rate against humans.

 

 Again Raids are group puzzles - once figured out, most raiding  guilds have them on farm status in no time.

Equating raids to chess is just beyond wrong.

 Have you been to Karazhan?  ;)

 

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