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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why limited skill bars are a good thing

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220 posts found
  drbaltazar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/28/07
Posts: 7987

6/13/14 8:22:32 AM#101
Some have very nice way to do this,neverwinter is one of my favorite.the main issue tho is combat become clunky .so it is harder for game maker to balance
  Gaia_Hunter

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2676

6/13/14 8:34:49 AM#102
Originally posted by xAPOCx
 

Im sorry i must be misinterpreting something wrong here. Am i to understand that having LESS skills available to me at any one time in a particular fight is GOOD? Correct me if im wrong but thats like having many sets of tires for your car and you would have to change them to coincide with the change in the weather. A set for dry days and rainy days and snow days and cold days and hot days and humid days..... Days being different mobs and the tires being "skills."

 

Why would you not want an all purpose tire "larger hotbars to be able to access all of your skills when needed." I dont want to have to go to my spell book every time i fight a mob and change out skills to suite the situation. Id rather have all my skills available to me at any giving time so i can assess the fight im in and make changes to fight style on the fly.

 

And not for nothing but MOBA style combat and MMORPG combat, IMO, should not be mixed.

So basically you say that having more specialized skills is what make unlimited skill bars better.

But then you say it is better to have all the skills to fit all the situation instead of the specific skills you swap in or out.

Basically what you are saying is that you character can deal with all the situations.

Which of course it can't even with the unlimited hotbar - you won't heal, mitigate damage and deal damage all at the same time.

A limited hotbar allow every class to have all the tools but then they can't equip them all just like a class in the unlimited hotbar scenario despite having loads of skills doesn't have all the tools required.

 

Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, King of Tokyo

  xAPOCx

Novice Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 894

6/13/14 8:38:18 AM#103
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by craftseeker
Originally posted by Alders

I prefer the limited skill set as apposed to the horrible EQ2 version of having 5-6 full bars of complete situational nonsense.

I don't like the number everyone keeps sitting on when they design limited though.  8 is too few and more than 20 is too many. For me 20 would be perfect as it would allow for two full bars of 1-10.

While I like the EQ2 system of having all my abilities available all the time.

In fencing there are nine standard parries, they have been around for a few hundred years now.  When I hear that at Olympic level fencers have to nominate which three of these they will use in a bout before it starts and get penalized for using one of the other six: then and only then will I start to wonder if limited skill bars are a good thing.

Or to use another example, I understand that US football teams have a 'play book' do you think it would be a good idea if they have to nominate which eight plays they will be using to the umpire before the match starts and get penalized for doing something else?

I get the impression that you don't play many team sports. If you do, ask your coach if there is any rhyme or reason to how he decides the line up for each game. We can cherrypick sports back and forth if you want, and others will gladly chime in with "bad analogy, that's like [insert worse analogy] and we'll get nowhere. 

However, I do hope that you do talk to your coach or a coach of any kind to ask how they pick the line up, since every team is made up of more people that are allows to be on the field/court/ice/etc at any one time. I am not suggesting this as an analogy. This is not an analogy or comparison of any kind. 

The purpose of my suggestion is to have someone else help you understand (because you're simply not getting it here) how the limitation of being able to use only a subset of one's resources adds more complexity to a challenge, game or competition than being able to use everything one has at their disposal. 

 

 

There is so much fail here i cant see straight. Coaches pick there starters based on THAT PLAYERS SKILL SET. It does not mater what sport we add to the analogy. But when your talking about limited hot bars thats like asking one of the players to only use "some" of what makes that player worthy of being on the team in the first place. Not alowing the player to use every skill available to that player at any giving time, only GIMPS that player. I think your confusing complexity with stupidity. Why the hell would someone NOT want to have access to every skill they have and at giving time?

 

 

  PAL-18

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/14/13
Posts: 740

6/13/14 8:47:57 AM#104

Venom Arrow I

Target Enemy

Cost 32 Stamina
Deals 9 Poison Damage to target. Casting targets are interrupted, put off balance, and stunned for 3 seconds. Target takes an additional 8 Poison Damage over 10 seconds.
New Effect:
Interrupts spells, putting the caster off balance.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Draining Shot I

Target Enemy

Cost 39 Stamina
Deals 9 Physical Damage to target, knocks them back 6 meters and disorients them for 5 seconds. Target is also snared 40% for 6 seconds.
New Effect:
Enemy snared when disorient ends.
----------------------------------------------------------
etc........
These things,its like 4 attacks in 1 and 3 classes in 1.(well venom arrow has 5)
 
I would take those as separate actions any day and night ,but like this  " its unlimited noskill bars"
 
press 1 button and your character plays exactly like your opponent does,combine it with auto aim,its not even combat,its something else.
 

So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.
By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
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  xAPOCx

Novice Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 894

6/13/14 8:56:14 AM#105
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by xAPOCx
 

Im sorry i must be misinterpreting something wrong here. Am i to understand that having LESS skills available to me at any one time in a particular fight is GOOD? Correct me if im wrong but thats like having many sets of tires for your car and you would have to change them to coincide with the change in the weather. A set for dry days and rainy days and snow days and cold days and hot days and humid days..... Days being different mobs and the tires being "skills."

 

Why would you not want an all purpose tire "larger hotbars to be able to access all of your skills when needed." I dont want to have to go to my spell book every time i fight a mob and change out skills to suite the situation. Id rather have all my skills available to me at any giving time so i can assess the fight im in and make changes to fight style on the fly.

 

And not for nothing but MOBA style combat and MMORPG combat, IMO, should not be mixed.

So basically you say that having more specialized skills is what make unlimited skill bars better.

But then you say it is better to have all the skills to fit all the situation instead of the specific skills you swap in or out.

Basically what you are saying is that you character can deal with all the situations.

Which of course it can't even with the unlimited hotbar - you won't heal, mitigate damage and deal damage all at the same time.

A limited hotbar allow every class to have all the tools but then they can't equip them all just like a class in the unlimited hotbar scenario despite having loads of skills doesn't have all the tools required.

 

I think your basing your response in assumption that a class can do everything. Tank,Heal,Support,DPS and the like. Thats your problem. Its better to have all the skills available to your class to deal with a variety of situations one might encounter with say a Warrior, Mage, Cleric, Necro, ect.

 

And the tire analogy is in reference to the hot bar space for my classes skills, not having access to every skill for every class.  And i never said anything about 'more specialized skills" I want access to all my skills without having to flip through and spell book, locate and skill, then add it my hot bar, removing another skill, to help me in a random situation, all while fighting the mob(s).

 

Perhaps this is the MOBA mind set. Less is more kinda thinking. Problem is were not talking about MOBAs, were talking about MMORPGS. But since MMOs are going action combat now and moving toward the MOBA play style, maybe im wrong here. who the fuck knows.

  DeserttFoxx

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/11/04
Posts: 2348

Cry Havok; and let loose the dogs of war.

Si vis pacem, para bellum

6/13/14 9:08:39 AM#106
Originally posted by Azrile

It does dumb down the game because it turns every mob into ´mob´ 

I will give two examples of skills that are being ´taken away´...

Lets suppose you are fighting a goblin, and then a skeleton.

With your 6-8 keys, those two mobs are exactly the same (assuming same level).  They both run up to you and whack you with swords.

Now lets add a skill  ´ turn undead´. 

This spell can be used to fear the skeleton for 4 seconds, but not the goblin.

Now these two mobs are completely different in how you fight them.

Now lets add a rock elemental that punches you in the face as it´s main attack.

And now lets add ´disarm´   another skill that is getting taken away when we reduce the game to 8 keys.

That skeleton attacks you, you can turn it ( fear it for 4 seconds)  and then you can disarm it, which reduces the damage it can do to you.

That goblin runs at you, you can disarm it

That rock elemental runs at you, those two skills are useless

Just in that brief example,  You now have 3 mobs which would be exactly the same in your game, but would be completely different if players had those two extra abilities to use.  Yes, there will ALWAYS be players who even if you gave them disarm and turn undead would still cast fireballx8 in the face.  But in a good game, those type of players should always perform worse than players who use all their skills effectively.  If I turn that skeleton and then disarm him, maybe I escape the encountered uninjured, where if you cast fireballx8  you finish at 75% health.

By removing skills, you turn every player in Fireballx8  and you turn that skeleton, goblin and rock elemental into ´mob lvl 12´

 

I will use WOW as an example, even though it has a lot of action bars, they still have dumbed it down

When fighting mobs while leveling, there are two mobs..  have ranged,   does not have ranged.   That is it... everything else is just the graphic used to represent the mob.  You may fight a ranged mob differently than a melee only mob.

As far as your skills.   1-90  I can level any character easily by only using 3 skills.  Nothing about the mob at all changes what keys I press.   I run up to the mob, any mob, and press  123332     mob is dead.   Nothing about the mob, nor nothing the mob does changes what abilities I use and in what order I use them.

that is dumbed down gameplay compared to what I talked about before.

Look at that, someone who knows what the fuck he is talking about.

 

I hate limited action sets, i hate that it is now a thing to give people 50 skills but only 5 hot bar buttons to put them on, and no method of quickly and easily switching these skills, so instead of fighting mobs optimally, you simply put on whatever skills work generally well on EVERYTHING, and you just end up spamming 1 damage skill over and over again.

 

REAL SKILLFUL.

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  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

 
OP  6/13/14 10:30:52 AM#107
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by craftseeker
Originally posted by Alders

I prefer the limited skill set as apposed to the horrible EQ2 version of having 5-6 full bars of complete situational nonsense.

I don't like the number everyone keeps sitting on when they design limited though.  8 is too few and more than 20 is too many. For me 20 would be perfect as it would allow for two full bars of 1-10.

While I like the EQ2 system of having all my abilities available all the time.

In fencing there are nine standard parries, they have been around for a few hundred years now.  When I hear that at Olympic level fencers have to nominate which three of these they will use in a bout before it starts and get penalized for using one of the other six: then and only then will I start to wonder if limited skill bars are a good thing.

Or to use another example, I understand that US football teams have a 'play book' do you think it would be a good idea if they have to nominate which eight plays they will be using to the umpire before the match starts and get penalized for doing something else?

I get the impression that you don't play many team sports. If you do, ask your coach if there is any rhyme or reason to how he decides the line up for each game. We can cherrypick sports back and forth if you want, and others will gladly chime in with "bad analogy, that's like [insert worse analogy] and we'll get nowhere. 

However, I do hope that you do talk to your coach or a coach of any kind to ask how they pick the line up, since every team is made up of more people that are allows to be on the field/court/ice/etc at any one time. I am not suggesting this as an analogy. This is not an analogy or comparison of any kind. 

The purpose of my suggestion is to have someone else help you understand (because you're simply not getting it here) how the limitation of being able to use only a subset of one's resources adds more complexity to a challenge, game or competition than being able to use everything one has at their disposal. 

 

 

There is so much fail here i cant see straight. Coaches pick there starters based on THAT PLAYERS SKILL SET. It does not mater what sport we add to the analogy. But when your talking about limited hot bars thats like asking one of the players to only use "some" of what makes that player worthy of being on the team in the first place. Not alowing the player to use every skill available to that player at any giving time, only GIMPS that player. I think your confusing complexity with stupidity. Why the hell would someone NOT want to have access to every skill they have and at giving time?

 

 

So Loktofelt was right when he said that none of these sports analogies really make sense.

When I originally made the analogy about a team captain that has to choose either 7 of 7 players, or 4 of 7 players...the point was NEVER that it was a sports thing, it was more about showing that choosing a limited subset of "something" is more interesting than just taking all of it.

I could have easily replaced the "team captain" with a chef and the players with "ingredients."  Or I could have used a "composer" and "instruments."  The point is, it never had ANYTHING to do with sports, so all these posts that have tried to take this whole sports thing and roll with it, are really missing the point.

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  SamsonT

Novice Member

Joined: 6/13/14
Posts: 2

6/13/14 10:38:36 AM#108

*I shortened some of the quotes to be more concise. I don't think I lost any of the context.

*Sorry for the wall of text. If I can add spoilers I failed to figure out how.

 

Limited Action Sets (LAS) provide increased preparatory decision making.

Unlimited Action Sets (UAS) provide increased real time decision making.

 

Overview:

  • LASs do dumb down games by reducing combat variety.
  • This doesn't objectively make the combat worse.
  • Build variety is not exclusive to LASs.
  • Interesting abilities are not exclusive to LASs.
  • Creative play is not exclusive to LASs.
  • Ability usage that is problematic to macro is not exclusive to LASs.
  • Dumbing down games is how you make them playable and/or balanced.
  • The human brain has limited functionality.
  • Games must balance speed of action with number of decisions.
  • Players have personal preferences regarding where that balance falls.

 

Decision Making...

In the scenarios involving picking 4 team members or 7, it is accurate to say that the picking process involves more decision making when restricted to 4 out of the 7 members. It is equally accurate to say that the playing process involves more decision making when coordinating 7 members instead of 4. More so when you are playing in a 7v7 match instead of a 4v4 match.

 

LASs limit not only the player, but also the encounters. The reason that LASs seem like an obviously good idea in most modern MMORPGs is because mobs themselves have LASs. Though they are far more limited than the LASs of players. So, going with the previous scenarios, it's turned into a 7v4 situation. Where because of the advantages of having 7 players (the player) over 4 players (the mob), very few of the plays (abilities) that are available to that team are going to be considered equal in effectiveness. Meaning that there will be plays that take full advantage of the fact that the one team has 3 more players than the other team. Thus the decision making is indirectly limited (It would be foolish to not take advantage of the superior plays.) even with an UAS. This makes it easy to overlook the advantages of a UAS. LASs become appealing then because the games themselves are not made to take advantage of the UASs. So some players enjoy being able to handicap themselves with LASs to create more compelling gameplay. Also some players just prefer preparatory decision making to real time decision making.

 

I do find it interesting that the Real Time Action (RTA) crowd tends to prefer LASs while the Time Limited Action (TLA) crowd tends to prefer UASs. RTA caters to reaction speed which is more of an instinctive response to a situation. Whereas TLA caters to problem solving which is more an intellectual response to a situation. Turn Based Action (TBA) focusing entirely on problem solving. I suppose this could be read as me implying the average person who enjoys LASs is unintelligent. This is not my intention. As a person's play preference is not always going to determine their mental capabilities. There are all kinds of people in the world and gamers play video games for many different reasons. What I am saying is that the intellectual aspect of gameplay is reduced, not eliminated, by having an LAS. This is because you are separating the decision making process into easier to work with steps. Step 1 is the preparatory stage. You choose which actions you want to have access to. Step 2 is the real time stage. You choose which actions you want to use. With an UAS there is only the real time stage. You simply choose which actions you want to use. RTA >> TLA << TBA all exist on the combat spectrum. Traditional RPGs were TBA. Then some of them became TLA. (Such as the Active Time Battle System in Final Fantasy games.) MMORPGs tend to go with a TLA system because of the multiplayer aspect and the freedom of movement it allows within a game world while at the same time holding some attachment to their RPG roots. It strikes a balance between giving the player time to think and not allowing players to infinitely halt the gameplay of others. So adding in an RTA system shifts the balance of the entire game, because of limited functionality of the average human brain. RTA = Least Complex, TLA = Moderately Complex, TBA = Most Complex. It a simple preference between instinctive gameplay versus intellectual gameplay. Nothing more. For example I personally don't feel the RTA combat provided by Wildstar requires enough precision and/or reaction speed to justify the LAS. I think it would be much better with 4-6 more ability slots or if it had aiming that involved the z axis, but not both.

 

MOBAs...

Looking at MOBAs compared to MMORPGs it would seem like there is merit to LASs for adding complexity. Which I'm not sure that was the argument you intended, it just kind of got thrown into the mix. The issue here is that MOBAs seem more complex, because they are more balanced. However they are more balanced because they are less complex. Developers are humans too. The human brain has limited functionality. Imagine if League of Legends took their 119 champions and combined them into 30 champions, all with 25 abilities each. That would leave roughly 24 champions. Do you want to make the argument that this would make LoL less complex? It would obviously make it more complex, for both the players and the developers. This likely ending up with an unbalanced game. So they choose to go with LASs in the form of champions and balance it as best they can. They choose the balance based on the audience they are targeting. So really you can argue that LASs are a good thing because of the fact that they dumb down games. But it would be illogical to say they don't dumb down games. Just take it to the extreme. If you had unlimited options you'd never really be able to make a decision. You'd die of old age trying to comprehend all your options. Therefore a balance must be struck between limitations and no limitations. That balance point depends on the target audience. Players who prefer TLA need more abilities than LASs tend to provide in order to get their preferred gameplay experience. It's one of the many ways games are divided in to genres. MMOs were once their own genre, but are now a subgenre. So you have these conflicting audiences.

 

Build Variety...

“You just don't get this kind of investment in your character's build from a game that lets you put all your skills on the bar at the same time.” -Creslin321

 

So what are the advantages to build variety? Because it is not inherently better than no build variety. Investment is the only advantage you list. Investment in a character's build can be provided by stat allocation, gear choices, and ability customization through individual skill leveling or talent wheels/trees. UASs allow a form of gameplay that cannot be provided by anything else, while LAS provide a form of gameplay that can, and often is, provided by other means. One could bring up the illusion of choice with those options, but that's just an issue of poor implementation rather than an issue with the concept. One could bring up the ease of flexibility provided in switching around LASs in most games. However that is not exclusive to LASs. It just depends on how the developers decide to implement UASs or it depends on how you look at LASs, since technically UASs are just big LASs in games with classes that have a fair amount of specialization options. Such as how easy it is in WoW to switch between specs with dual specialization and how specializations are more like preset LASs at this point or soon to be anyway.

 

Why do you spend hours going over different builds? I'm assuming it is because of the possibility of a dynamic combat situation. For a static combat situation you would simply use one build designed specifically for it. Using Build A would be superior against a Warrior with Build C, while Build B would be superior against a Warrior with Build D. Any time a combat situation throws an unexpected hard counter at you a LAS only leaves you with 3 scenarios. First is that you give up. Second is that you flee. Third is you're lucky and happen to have the right LAS. With an UAS you are able to immediately change your tactics. Only giving up or fleeing if you are unable to make the correct adjustments fast enough. Therefore an UAS allows for the possibility of greater variance within a single encounter than a LAS can possibly provide. Any variance of gameplay using a LAS system must be broken into compartments, as in separate encounters, or the encounters would need to be very watered down so that a number of builds would be viable. Thus trivializing the encounter for the best builds and reducing the total number of encounter types available. Also on a basic level going over builds is no different than going over rotations, priority lists, or figuring out the best ability to use to counter ability X. It's the same process just separated into steps and presented differently.

 

The Divide...

“Yet, despite the apparent popularity of this design with developers, I see so many people here complain about the limited skill bar. Saying things like it "dumbs down" the game, or makes combat worse/less-varied.” -Creslin321

 

Speculations...

I imagine the design is popular with developers because it's easier for them to work with and it caters to a larger audience.

 

I imagine the people “complaining” simply prefer more traditional combat systems. A LAS serves specific purposes in game design. Those purposes are very much in line with the direction that more modern MMORPGs are going in. That direction is away from traditional MMORPGs. It's not unlikely that there are more traditional MMORPG fans that post on these forums than there are modern MMORPG fans.

 

Facts...

It does dumb down the game, by definition. To what degree? That's going to depend on how the rest of the game is designed. However if you take 2 games designed equally and only changed whether or not they used a LAS vs an UAS the LAS would always be the dumbed down version. Just remember that the human brain can only process so much and developers themselves aren't geniuses. Dumbing down is often necessary to provide a playable game. It is unquestionably dumbed down because it is breaking up the decision making process into 2 separate steps. Thus lightening the load of thought required compared to keeping the decision making in a single step. For example if you were going to go quest in a PvP zone, you'd decide before hand if you were going to use your PvP build, your Quest build, or your Hybrid build. This means that the way you fight other players or quest mobs is going to be similar (as you're locked into one build) and you are simply going to be less effective toward whichever one depending on the build you chose. This can provide some form of variety within gameplay because you are effectively handicapping yourself. So you fight the mobs or players a little differently. However given the nature of PvP and the ease of PvE, you'd likely go with your PvP build and put up with being handicapped against the quest mobs. Designers could make the quest mobs difficult, requiring you to run with your Quest build, but then you'd get destroyed by someone hunting players with their PvP build. (This is assuming you are playing both the questing character and the player attacking you, to make a fair comparison.) Going with the Hybrid build you'd just put up a bit better of a fight, but you'd still lose. So the combat variety here would involve being able to win vs not being to win. Instead of being able to be challenged by both the quest mobs and the other player, which would only be possible with a UASs.

 

It doesn't make it worse. Worse is subjective and can't be applied without some intended result. I can claim an LAS is worse for providing freedom within combat and be accurate. I can't say LASs are worse at providing fun to players and be accurate.

 

It does make combat less-varied. You have less actions in combat, therefore combat is limited. Hence, 'limited' action set. There is no way around this. Variety within in an encounter is limited. Variety of possible encounter types is limited as well. Looking at it from a solo perspective. (Looking at it from a group perspective would just make all the values lesser/greater. This is seen by examining how WoW designs their raids. They often ignore class specific abilities because players are effectively sharing a LAS across their entire raid group. Therefore the raids are much more simplistic than they could be in order to allow more group compositions to be viable.) You can only design encounters around a player having access to however many abilities are allowed in the LAS. Here's a good way to look at it. By giving players a LAS you have to give mobs a LAS. Mobs don't get to have a preparatory decision making phase. That's up to the developers. So they are fixed. You just need to go through trial and error to figure out what LAS you can use to counter it. By giving players an UAS mobs can have an UAS as well, they often don't because that would be insane for the average player to deal with, but they have the option to. Because players have an UAS they never find themselves in a situation that is mechanically unbeatable. They can go through the same exact trial and error process, but each fight would require many more trials to get to the right combination of actions to counter the mob. You show how you can create 184,756 possible build combinations by using a LAS of 10 with 20 abilities to choose from. This means that there are only 184,756 possible encounter types that would make full use of each build. Every fight would be Player Build 1 vs Mob Build 1, Player Build 10,000 vs Mob Build 10,000, etc. Player Build 1 would not be able to beat a mob that transitions from Mob Build 1 into Mob Build 2. If a single Mob could combine any of those builds within a single encounter there would be 1.048576e+26 unique encounters. All of which a single build character with an UAS would be able to hard counter if played correctly.

 

Using a LAS of 10 with 20 abilities grants a total of...

 

184,756 builds

1.024e+13 or 10,240,000,000,000 ability rotations.

 

Using a UAS of 20 abilities grants a total of...

 

1 build

1.048576e+26 or 104,857,600,000,000,000,000,000,000 ability rotations.

 

UAS permutations > LAS permutations = LAS reduces combat variety.

 

 

Abilities...

“I think that limiting the skill bar really forces both players and developers to be more creative with how they use/create skills, and this can create a really interesting combat dynamic in the game.” -Creslin321

 

Alternatively you have Teleport and Stun as 2 separate abilities. However they all cost a shared secondary resource instead of sharing a CD. Let's call them Power Charges. Let's also say they are both off the GCD. You get the same functionality, but more abilities. I find it odd that you go on to discourage macroing. Because the SS's teleport ability is essentially a developer made macro. Made out of necessity, as you point out, in order to make up for the fact that the player has less control. Imagine the SS has these 2 abilities and Power Charges function like Medic's Actuators, except that the Power Charges would recharge like a CD and not be built up. Let's say each ability uses 2 Power Charges. You now have 5 options. You can make a macro to teleport and stun, this would use 4 Power Charges, providing the exact same functionality. You can teleport without wasting your stun. You can stun without sacrificing your positioning. You can also teleport or stun twice. Of course you could also give each ability it's own individual CD as well. So that you wouldn't be able to teleport or stun twice in a row. This does provide an interesting choice for the player. As they must be more selective in when to use an ability as to not waste it. However it is not as versatile as having the abilities separated and provides much less creative options for the player. Furthermore you could maintain the interesting choice by having an ability that was exactly like the current SS ability. By having it remain unchanged and then having the individual Teleport not move the character as far and having the individual Stun not last as long or not remove any Interrupt Armor (or just one Interrupt Armor instead of 2 if it was upgraded).

 

Macros...

“In games with MASSIVE skill bars like Rift, there was essentially one skill rotation that was optimal under just about any circumstance. So instead of pressing 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9; players would just press 1,1,1,1,1....and get the same effect. This is definitely not so in a limited skill bar game. A lot of skills in these games are multi-purpose, trying to force them into a rotation is going to really screw you over.”

 

This has nothing to do with LAS vs UAS. As a general rule, using macros to have less buttons to press means the game is poorly designed or the players are just not interested in getting 100% out of their characters. Those who are trying to get 100% out of their character will add as many specific tactical macros that they can comfortably key bind. This is a sign of a well designed game or the players are just very meticulous. It's entirely up to the design of each ability as to what % of effectiveness a player can get out of a character by facerolling.

 

Immersion...

Something else that isn't quite as obvious to some, as it's another case of preference, is the way that LASs can break immersion. Mages forgetting how to cast fireball, Warriors forgetting how to leap, etc. Then there is how they can effect pacing or being in "the groove" when your have to stop for 20-60 seconds to reconfigure your LAS just to fight a different mob type. It can feel like you are just playing 100 different versions of your class, rather than your actual class.

  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

 
OP  6/13/14 10:41:19 AM#109
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by xAPOCx
 

Im sorry i must be misinterpreting something wrong here. Am i to understand that having LESS skills available to me at any one time in a particular fight is GOOD? Correct me if im wrong but thats like having many sets of tires for your car and you would have to change them to coincide with the change in the weather. A set for dry days and rainy days and snow days and cold days and hot days and humid days..... Days being different mobs and the tires being "skills."

 

Why would you not want an all purpose tire "larger hotbars to be able to access all of your skills when needed." I dont want to have to go to my spell book every time i fight a mob and change out skills to suite the situation. Id rather have all my skills available to me at any giving time so i can assess the fight im in and make changes to fight style on the fly.

 

And not for nothing but MOBA style combat and MMORPG combat, IMO, should not be mixed.

So basically you say that having more specialized skills is what make unlimited skill bars better.

But then you say it is better to have all the skills to fit all the situation instead of the specific skills you swap in or out.

Basically what you are saying is that you character can deal with all the situations.

Which of course it can't even with the unlimited hotbar - you won't heal, mitigate damage and deal damage all at the same time.

A limited hotbar allow every class to have all the tools but then they can't equip them all just like a class in the unlimited hotbar scenario despite having loads of skills doesn't have all the tools required.

 

I think your basing your response in assumption that a class can do everything. Tank,Heal,Support,DPS and the like. Thats your problem. Its better to have all the skills available to your class to deal with a variety of situations one might encounter with say a Warrior, Mage, Cleric, Necro, ect.

 

And the tire analogy is in reference to the hot bar space for my classes skills, not having access to every skill for every class.  And i never said anything about 'more specialized skills" I want access to all my skills without having to flip through and spell book, locate and skill, then add it my hot bar, removing another skill, to help me in a random situation, all while fighting the mob(s).

 

Perhaps this is the MOBA mind set. Less is more kinda thinking. Problem is were not talking about MOBAs, were talking about MMORPGS. But since MMOs are going action combat now and moving toward the MOBA play style, maybe im wrong here. who the fuck knows.

Actually, I think Gaia_Hunter was spot on with his observation that a limited skill bar lets you mix and match roles in a way that unlimited skill bars typically don't.

Take Wildstar for example.  In Wildstar, every class has two potential roles....either DPS/Healer, or DPS/Tank.  And I am free to mix and match my skills to be full on in one of these roles, or any degree of hybrid.

Can I be pure DPS?  Sure!  What about a DPS/Healer hybrid?  Yup!  What about primarily DPS, but with a few heals?  Yup you can do that too!

Unlimited skill bar games usually do not allow this kind of flexibility.  If they did, you would be able to fill whatever roles your class can potentially do at any time.  And when they do allow this kind of flexibility it is through talent trees...which as I said earlier are normally MORE restrictive than limiting the skill bar.

-----

As for your comments about MOBAs.  I don't really think you can just say that we're talking about MMORPGs and ignore that MOBAs exist.  Like it or not, MOBAs have implemented PvP in a way that is very similar to how MMORPGs do it, but is typically much more complex and competitive.

I mean think about it, in a MOBA you level up, get gear, have powers, acquire gold, farm....there are lots of similarities here, I don't think you should just throw the MOBA example out when it's something to potentially learn from.  I'm not saying that I think MMORPG PvP should be just like MOBAs...but I am saying that MMORPG devs should definitely look at how MOBAs work and try to use what works really well in them.

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  Gaia_Hunter

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2676

6/13/14 11:23:35 AM#110
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by xAPOCx
 

Im sorry i must be misinterpreting something wrong here. Am i to understand that having LESS skills available to me at any one time in a particular fight is GOOD? Correct me if im wrong but thats like having many sets of tires for your car and you would have to change them to coincide with the change in the weather. A set for dry days and rainy days and snow days and cold days and hot days and humid days..... Days being different mobs and the tires being "skills."

 

Why would you not want an all purpose tire "larger hotbars to be able to access all of your skills when needed." I dont want to have to go to my spell book every time i fight a mob and change out skills to suite the situation. Id rather have all my skills available to me at any giving time so i can assess the fight im in and make changes to fight style on the fly.

 

And not for nothing but MOBA style combat and MMORPG combat, IMO, should not be mixed.

So basically you say that having more specialized skills is what make unlimited skill bars better.

But then you say it is better to have all the skills to fit all the situation instead of the specific skills you swap in or out.

Basically what you are saying is that you character can deal with all the situations.

Which of course it can't even with the unlimited hotbar - you won't heal, mitigate damage and deal damage all at the same time.

A limited hotbar allow every class to have all the tools but then they can't equip them all just like a class in the unlimited hotbar scenario despite having loads of skills doesn't have all the tools required.

 

I think your basing your response in assumption that a class can do everything. Tank,Heal,Support,DPS and the like. Thats your problem. Its better to have all the skills available to your class to deal with a variety of situations one might encounter with say a Warrior, Mage, Cleric, Necro, ect.

 

And the tire analogy is in reference to the hot bar space for my classes skills, not having access to every skill for every class.  And i never said anything about 'more specialized skills" I want access to all my skills without having to flip through and spell book, locate and skill, then add it my hot bar, removing another skill, to help me in a random situation, all while fighting the mob(s).

 

Perhaps this is the MOBA mind set. Less is more kinda thinking. Problem is were not talking about MOBAs, were talking about MMORPGS. But since MMOs are going action combat now and moving toward the MOBA play style, maybe im wrong here. who the fuck knows.

First MOBA is a highly successful competitive genre, something MMORPGs aren't. That should say something about the skill required to play each game.

Second unless your class is completely unidimensional you don't get all your class skills in the hotbar.

Third many of the skills are there either as filler due to cooldowns/resource management, ie, crappier versions of the skill you actually want to use, or simply just aren't used in normal situations.

In essence you have a core of skills you press most of the time. A game like GW2 has 18+ buttons you will be pressing. Is that so far off of the core skills one generally press in a general situation in an unlimited game?

Fourth just because a skill isn't in the bar it doesn't mean it isn't part of the pool of choices - you chose not to put it there.

Fifth exactly what non specialized skill would you want to use in a limited bar game that it isn't in your bar? The general skills are the ones that get into the limited skill bar.

Going back to your analogy the difference is that in one game you have a single vehicle with loads of spots for different tires, even a tire on the roof you will never use, while in the other you choose a vehicle and what tires to equip in the limited tire spots.

None is in itself superior or inferior, they just offer different avenues for the developers to create content and challenge their players.

You talk about locating a skill in your spellbook to beat a mob (which lets face it is something that is very rare, requiring a non core skill). Probably in the unlimited action bar you don't have that silver bullet skill and instead require a different archetype or another player. In the limited action bar you probably have a silver bullet, but the downside of it is that to equip the silver bullet you lose a bullet that is better against everything else.

GW arenas was a good example of that. You could get a warrior with anti condtion, anti hexes, healing, but by doing that you stopped actually being effective as a warrior. So you would build your character as a warrior, with damage dealing skills, some CC and then maybe bringing some healing or minor anti condition and you would depend on your team for the rest.

Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, King of Tokyo

  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

 
OP  6/13/14 11:28:13 AM#111

 

Originally posted by SamsonT

*I shortened some of the quotes to be more concise. I don't think I lost any of the context.

*Sorry for the wall of text. If I can add spoilers I failed to figure out how.

 

Limited Action Sets (LAS) provide increased preparatory decision making.

Unlimited Action Sets (UAS) provide increased real time decision making.

 

.....

Something else that isn't quite as obvious to some, as it's another case of preference, is the way that LASs can break immersion. Mages forgetting how to cast fireball, Warriors forgetting how to leap, etc. Then there is how they can effect pacing or being in "the groove" when your have to stop for 20-60 seconds to reconfigure your LAS just to fight a different mob type. It can feel like you are just playing 100 different versions of your class, rather than your actual class.

Hey Samson, thanks for the in-depth counter-argument.  I definitely do not agree with you, but I appreciate the time you put into your post.  I will try to counter your points below...

----------------------

Decision Making...

Firstly, I really don't think that player LAS have anything to do with MOBs having LAS.  

Second, I think you are focusing so much on decision making being isolated to what skills you can use that you are missing the bigger picture.  Decision making in any MMORPG is not just be about what skill to use in "the moment."  It is about positioning, cool-down management, predicting your opponent, map awareness etc. etc.

Also, sometimes having less options forces you to make more interesting decisions.  For example, if you have 5 condition cleanse abilities, and someone in your group gets poisoned, then you will likely cleanse them.  The decision is easy, you have 5 condition cleanses, if one goes on CD...big deal, you have 4 others.

But what if you had only one condition cleanse?  Maybe you use it on the poisoned guy, maybe you don't.  If you use it, you won't have your condition cleanse until its off CD, and your group may be screwed if someone else gets a more debilitating condition.  Point is, having more options does not always make for more interesting decisions...in fact, sometimes it makes for less interesting decisions.

--------------------------

MOBAs....

Actually, if the developer took LoL and condensed its 119 champions into 30, ignoring the fact that this would break the game, it would make the game less complex.  Players would very quickly figure out the 'optimal" skills to use in their builds, and the rest of the skills would just not get used.  Many of the skills do the same basic thing.  For example, why would I ever use a skills that does 150 damage for 50 mana, when I have one that does 250 damage for 75?

What makes the skills interesting is how they combine with the champs other skills and the skills of your team.  If you just give the champs 30-40 skills each, you destroy this dynamic.  Once again, sometimes more interesting decisions come from less options.

----------------------------

Build Variety...

You are correct to observe that classes in MMORPGs are really just LSA's., and that talent trees essentially turn UAS's into LAS's.  So knowing that...what do you think is better?  Being forced into 3-4 specific LAS's by your talent trees?  Or being able to make WHATEVER kind of LAS you want, by an LAS system?  LAS's accomplish the same goal of talent trees but give the player soooo much more freedom...why would I ever want a talent tree to restrict my build in a pre-scripted fashion, when I can make my own build however I want?

Also, you are oversimplifying how LAS's work when you say that you just pick a build designed for a specific situation.  Why certain builds definitely are situational...you definitely want a build that can be versatile enough to deal with a few different situations.  Oh, and most LAS games are NOT implemented in such a harsh rock/paper/scissors fashion that you are forced to 'run away" or "give up" if you encounter a build that "counters" yours.

Ironically, I think more UAS games are like this.  If you are a "mage" and you get stealth jumped by a "rogue" in a UAS game, you are generally dead...you have very strict roles.  But in a LAS game, your mage may have a heal or stun-break to help survive the stun gank.  Point is, the LAS game doesn't force you into one specific role (pure DPS), you get to customize your role to be more defensive if you like.

---------------------------

The Divide...

Your statement that LAS's dumb down the game "by definition" is incorrect and basically the logical fallacy of begging the question.  As I have stated earlier, sometimes having less options forces you to make more interesting decisions.  And if you don't believe my arguments...then just look how freaking complicated the MOBA genre is.  And in that genre you get FOUR skills...FOUR!

As for your statement on permutations...ummm that really doesn't make much sense.  Sure, there may be 1.04e+26 different possible skill rotations in a UAS...but you have to realize that most of your skills probably are not intended to be used in some kind of rotation.    Is your DPS rotation going to be something like "Holy smite, cure poison, meditate, 30 minute buff?"  Yeah I don't think so.  

UAS games normally only have a few abilities that are meant to be used in some kind of rotation, and normally, there is just ONE rotation that comes out of them.  ONE, all those abilities, and most players wind up doing ONE rotation over and over again.

And that bring up another point that I want to close with...

You repeatedly state that UAS games have more much more interesting and complex combat than LAS games.  Well...I've played the vast majority of the big MMORPGs to come out since UO, and I have to say...just about every UAS game I've played had really boring combat that boils down to one rotation.

I really think your idea that UAS games have really interesting combat because they "theoretically" can, due to more active abilities, is just that...purely theoretical.  Most combat in a UAS game is either one rotation, or using abilities completely "reactively" and without much though, such as heal, turn undead etc.  

Can you name a single UAS game with this really interesting, strategic combat that you seem to think they have?

 

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  Gaia_Hunter

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2676

6/13/14 11:39:28 AM#112

Talking about complexity and number of options.

Look at Chess and Go.

Chess has 6 types of pieces.

Go has 1 type of piece.

And Chess is not too shabby about complexity.

Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, King of Tokyo

  Badaboom

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/04/10
Posts: 2401

6/13/14 11:49:04 AM#113

Darkfall just made a huge change similar to what everyone is discussing here.  They scrapped the current class system and now everyone is able to take any skill they want.  The only caveat is that you can only have 8 role skills and one ultimate skill, plus a handful of other common skills.  This makes the system more in line like GW1.  You have a big pool of skills to choose from, but only a limited number on the bar. 

Anyways, I'm having the most fun I have had playing any game right now with this change. 

 

PS:  4.5 billion skill combo possibilities with the current system.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12405

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

6/13/14 12:30:23 PM#114
Originally posted by SamsonT

 

The Divide...

“Yet, despite the apparent popularity of this design with developers, I see so many people here complain about the limited skill bar. Saying things like it "dumbs down" the game, or makes combat worse/less-varied.” -Creslin321

 

Speculations...

I imagine the design is popular with developers because it's easier for them to work with and it caters to a larger audience.

I imagine the people “complaining” simply prefer more traditional combat systems. A LAS serves specific purposes in game design. Those purposes are very much in line with the direction that more modern MMORPGs are going in. That direction is away from traditional MMORPGs. It's not unlikely that there are more traditional MMORPG fans that post on these forums than there are modern MMORPG fans.

 

The direction of "LAS" is away from modern MMO design and more toward older design. "UAS" is popular because it removes yet another layer of consequence for the player. In EVE, UO, AC and most other older MMOs, not knowing one's enemy and improperly preparing for the battle could cost one the victory.

The problem here is that most people in the thread aren't looking at the bigger picture. One's view of this has to extend beyond the individual battle and the hotbar combat system. What's interesting is that if this conversation was about trinity or no trinity, the majority here would be overwhelmingly in favor of the trinity, often contending that class limitations and role restriction make the combat more complex and choices more meaningful.

 

@xAPOCx, you chose to respond with "so much fail" regarding my explanation but your entire reply indicates that you didn't even read my post. I ask that you please re-read it, primarily the last paragraph.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  xAPOCx

Novice Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 894

6/13/14 12:33:26 PM#115
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Talking about complexity and number of options.

Look at Chess and Go.

Chess has 6 types of pieces.

Go has 1 type of piece.

And Chess is not too shabby about complexity.

Yep. you have 6 pieces in chess.... You dont have 12 and pick 6 pieces to use for any giving game. Or 6 pieces and only use 4. You use them ALL. Why is it so hard for you to grasp this concept?

  Aeonblades

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/12/12
Posts: 2123

6/13/14 12:36:42 PM#116
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Talking about complexity and number of options.

Look at Chess and Go.

Chess has 6 types of pieces.

Go has 1 type of piece.

And Chess is not too shabby about complexity.

That kind of reinforces the point that limited skill bars are destroying the genre...You can move every piece in chess, you don't just pick 5 pieces at a time. Chess is one the best, if not the best, board games in existance for the very reason that you have control over every piece, not just half of them.

 

Bah APOC beat me to it, but yea, this just reinforces how bad limited skill sets are.

Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  Onigod

Novice Member

Joined: 3/24/07
Posts: 694

6/13/14 12:38:55 PM#117
Long story short, limited skillbar slots makes players of the same skill very different in many occasions and alows devs to buff or nerf centrain builds players are using which opens up a lot of other combo`s for players to find out every time a skill is changed even slightly it might make certain "builds" more/less viable.
  xAPOCx

Novice Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 894

6/13/14 1:15:32 PM#118
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by xAPOCx

I think your basing your response in assumption that a class can do everything. Tank,Heal,Support,DPS and the like. Thats your problem. Its better to have all the skills available to your class to deal with a variety of situations one might encounter with say a Warrior, Mage, Cleric, Necro, ect.

 

And the tire analogy is in reference to the hot bar space for my classes skills, not having access to every skill for every class.  And i never said anything about 'more specialized skills" I want access to all my skills without having to flip through and spell book, locate and skill, then add it my hot bar, removing another skill, to help me in a random situation, all while fighting the mob(s).

 

Perhaps this is the MOBA mind set. Less is more kinda thinking. Problem is were not talking about MOBAs, were talking about MMORPGS. But since MMOs are going action combat now and moving toward the MOBA play style, maybe im wrong here. who the fuck knows.

First MOBA is a highly successful competitive genre, something MMORPGs aren't. That should say something about the skill required to play each game.

First dont get your panties in a twist. I never said MOBAs were a bad thing now did i? The skill to play said game however is based on the player. So in MOBAs the least amount of skills benefits the MOBA player.

Second unless your class is completely unidimensional you don't get all your class skills in the hotbar.

LOL what! Cant get all my skills on the hot bars? Tell that to my Necro or my Bard in VG.

Third many of the skills are there either as filler due to cooldowns/resource management, ie, crappier versions of the skill you actually want to use, or simply just aren't used in normal situations.

Wrong. Skills are skills. And while you may seem to think that they are useless, People like me make use of whats giving to me. Even the least used skill still gets a spot on my bar.

In essence you have a core of skills you press most of the time. A game like GW2 has 18+ buttons you will be pressing. Is that so far off of the core skills one generally press in a general situation in an unlimited game?

Dont play GW2 so cant comment about the UI and its workings. Just so you know i dont play twitch mmos.

Fourth just because a skill isn't in the bar it doesn't mean it isn't part of the pool of choices - you chose not to put it there.

Hence why i like the unlimited skill bar. I dont want to flip through my skill book to find a skill that SHOULD BE IN MY HOT BARS! I dont know why this is an issue for you.

Fifth exactly what non specialized skill would you want to use in a limited bar game that it isn't in your bar? The general skills are the ones that get into the limited skill bar.

I wouldn't play a game with a limited hot bar.

Going back to your analogy the difference is that in one game you have a single vehicle with loads of spots for different tires, even a tire on the roof you will never use, while in the other you choose a vehicle and what tires to equip in the limited tire spots.

How is it you know that the tire on the roof will never be used? Thats where your thinking is flawed. And you got it wrong. Im not choosing a vehicle. Im choosing the tire that severs all a tires needs. The point is to not have to choose between tires because that ONE TIRE has all your tire needs in it. Hence the unlimited action bars.

None is in itself superior or inferior, they just offer different avenues for the developers to create content and challenge their players.

You talk about locating a skill in your spellbook to beat a mob (which lets face it is something that is very rare, requiring a non core skill). Probably in the unlimited action bar you don't have that silver bullet skill and instead require a different archetype or another player. In the limited action bar you probably have a silver bullet, but the downside of it is that to equip the silver bullet you lose a bullet that is better against everything else.

This goes into knowing your class. My necro could fight and kill 5-6 mobs at a time. while using an arrey of skills from turn undead to fear to transmogrify to bone spear to... well you get the point.

Every skill has a purpose and every situation may call for different set of skills to be used and in different ways. On the fly decision making. And for you to refer to a "silver bullet skill." I can only assume you are talking about a "finishing" skill.

Well my Necro had a few of those if you used the right combo of skills. Like Soul Blight and Dark Rebuke. If i had to go to my spell book every time i wanted to cast a skill that was not on my bars it would have made for a very horrid gaming experience.

GW arenas was a good example of that. You could get a warrior with anti condtion, anti hexes, healing, but by doing that you stopped actually being effective as a warrior. So you would build your character as a warrior, with damage dealing skills, some CC and then maybe bringing some healing or minor anti condition and you would depend on your team for the rest.

Again your referring to games that let you do everything. Perhaps its the games your playing that are the problem.

 

  xAPOCx

Novice Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 894

6/13/14 1:27:46 PM#119
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by SamsonT

 

The Divide...

“Yet, despite the apparent popularity of this design with developers, I see so many people here complain about the limited skill bar. Saying things like it "dumbs down" the game, or makes combat worse/less-varied.” -Creslin321

 

Speculations...

I imagine the design is popular with developers because it's easier for them to work with and it caters to a larger audience.

I imagine the people “complaining” simply prefer more traditional combat systems. A LAS serves specific purposes in game design. Those purposes are very much in line with the direction that more modern MMORPGs are going in. That direction is away from traditional MMORPGs. It's not unlikely that there are more traditional MMORPG fans that post on these forums than there are modern MMORPG fans.

 

The direction of "LAS" is away from modern MMO design and more toward older design. "UAS" is popular because it removes yet another layer of consequence for the player. In EVE, UO, AC and most other older MMOs, not knowing one's enemy and improperly preparing for the battle could cost one the victory.

The problem here is that most people in the thread aren't looking at the bigger picture. One's view of this has to extend beyond the individual battle and the hotbar combat system. What's interesting is that if this conversation was about trinity or no trinity, the majority here would be overwhelmingly in favor of the trinity, often contending that class limitations and role restriction make the combat more complex and choices more meaningful.

 

@xAPOCx, you chose to respond with "so much fail" regarding my explanation but your entire reply indicates that you didn't even read my post. I ask that you please re-read it, primarily the last paragraph.

I read your last paragraph... 2 items just to make sure i did not misinterpret it and my statement stands. So much fail. Limiting yourself to a few actions when you have many is lunacy at best. In a fight, do you ask a boxer not to use his uppercut? Why limit the space one can have skills in place for the situation needed for said skill. All for the sake of "complexity"? Give me a break. Nothing complex about having skills wasting in your skill book while you fighting a mob. Its stupidity.

  askdaboss

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/13/11
Posts: 457

6/13/14 1:42:02 PM#120

For the roleplaying aspect, Here are some example of skills that are missing from games with a limited set of skills:

- "environmental" type skills: open lock, identify item, detect secret, talk/morph to animals, light spell, detect enemy type

- "roleplaying" skills: boost bargaining, change appearance, food/water spell,

- "buffs": resist fire, levitate, water breathing.

 

I like good action in my games (and I agree that generally having 50 skills rather than 10-15 is a bit useless during combat), but from an MMO *RolePlayingGame* perspective, missing pure RPG spells allow for less fun situations/player imagination overall and outside of combat (this general orientation of MMOs towards action is also while we lose stuff such as "merchant players", etc.)

 

I know ESO failed a bit on that - lots of really fun-to-use spells are missing from the game IMO (that would be in Elder Scrolls proper). Of course, from a competitive standpoint, having sorcerers with crazy spells and able to levitate while the rest would just stay on the ground with a miserable 10 spells would be bad for balance (ignoring the simple fact that balancing a game around 50 spells is always easier than doing it around 500 spells).

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