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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why limited skill bars are a good thing

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220 posts found
  coorsguys

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/20/13
Posts: 312

6/12/14 7:33:45 PM#81
Originally posted by Tbau
Originally posted by coorsguys
Originally posted by Tbau

Your example does not match the actual points of the discussion.

Scenario 1: you are a team captain, you have a team of 53 players consisting of an offensive unit, a defensive unit, a special teams unit with the remaining as backup players incase of injury or super special situations. This is American FOOTBALL.

Scenario 2: you have Tom, Ted, Ned, Ben and Jerry. Have fun playing tag.

 

Get it yet? Doubt it because you are pushing personal opinions as facts instead of just as your personal preference. Your preference does not trump universal truths.

Your scenario one is incorrect.  In American FOOTBALL you have 2 Offensive captains, 2 defensive captains and 2 special teams captains for a grand total of 6 captains.  

Slight difference between the word "THE" and the word "A".

"The team captain" would be, the only captain, which I did not say.

However I did like the vain attempt at dismantling the argument with something that has nothing to actually do with the point made.

Nice attempt at admitting you were wrong.

if you are going to use a bad analogy you might as well use it correctly...6 captains 

  Tbau

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/07/14
Posts: 407

6/12/14 7:38:58 PM#82
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Tbau

Once again I am one step ahead of you.

Oh wait, I forgot that you mentioned earlier that MOBA combat is superior to MMORPG combat which explains everything. 

Tbau, I think you misunderstood what he wrote. He posted that MOBA combat is more complex than PVP combat in most MMOs and that's generally true. He did not say anything about one form of combat being superior to the other. 

And some people believe that complexity is required for a form of combat to be superior.

So again I will point to what I said before. A personal preference is being pushed as factual truth instead of just his personal preference.

Not all statements require factual backing. Do you try to prove to people that your favorite food is the best tasting in the world?!?

  Tbau

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/07/14
Posts: 407

6/12/14 7:40:46 PM#83
Originally posted by coorsguys
Originally posted by Tbau

Slight difference between the word "THE" and the word "A".

"The team captain" would be, the only captain, which I did not say.

However I did like the vain attempt at dismantling the argument with something that has nothing to actually do with the point made.

Nice attempt at admitting you were wrong.

if you are going to use a bad analogy you might as well use it correctly...6 captains 

If you are going to quote me, quote all of it.

Football teams do have team captains and not just unit captains. But again, thanks for showing you really don't have anything to say at all and are just here to try to derail the topic.

  Quesa

Novice Member

Joined: 6/16/04
Posts: 1265

6/12/14 7:50:03 PM#84

I often found those games which had limited skill bars to have less variation.  Everyone always min-maxes their character/build and they will choose those skills which give them the highest efficiency for most encounters they are engaging in.  In GW2, once I found the best skills for a PvE or PvP encounter, I almost never varied the skillset I selected because another choice wouldn't have had better utility as my previous choice so the actions became a static skillset.

I remember when WoW began balancing and removing skills from characters and their main reasoning was that most people only use between 6-8 skills (I think that was the range) so anything above that was a wasted skill and just another variable in the process of balancing skills within the class/spec and other classes.  I think that thought process continued when they eventually neutered the hell out of the talent trees and now you have 3 choices to 'mutate' a skill every ~15 levels.  

As a vanilla+ Warlock player (mostly destruction) this process removed alot of choice and flavor from the class.  Warlocks had alot of skills to micro-manage on top of pet abilities.  This all changed as they began removing such skills that they felt weren't used alot.  It really dropped the skill-cap of the class and rather annoying for those who enjoyed fighting at a disadvantage and coming out on the top of the engagement through sheer class familiarity and skill.

To me, limited skillbars just means less variability as people gravitate towards skills, talents or sets that best prepare them for encounters.  Even though this happens in those games which don't limit skills available to the player it does severely limit those players who have the wherewithal to recognize those situations where using a specific skill will have better effects on the encounter than the standard or limited set of skills.  Limited skillbars doesn't let good players shine and flattens the skillcap of the game and maybe an illusion of balance because of such.

  zzax

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/09/09
Posts: 193

6/12/14 7:53:51 PM#85

It doesnt have to be 8 slots with full customization VS 30 slots with no customization.

 

Why not to make it something in between, like 16 slots with limited customization?

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6906

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

6/12/14 8:07:54 PM#86

Nah none of this is true just forcing ideas that are not true at all.

If you had 20 skills and can use 20 you have a "character" how he uses those skills makes the player,not the skills making the player.

If you had 6 skills you are just limiting resources and versatility NOT improving it,so it makes a lesser player.

The OP's analogy would be like saying only one skill would be best because you would have even more builds.

No game will ever surpass how FFXI did the class design because they did it near perfect,even subtle changes would ruin the system and your ROLE in that class.

IMo the REAL truth is that devs are just lazy and looking for cheaper ideas to make games,that is why they try to limit your choices.Instead of making 20 classes with perhaps 30 spells and 15 abilities EACH,they just toss out maybe double that but has to span across all the classes,so takes less work,less effort,less cost.

The other idea is balance,limiting you to so few choices really puts you back in a specific role or you will be bad at your class in a group situation however devs don't have to put the effort into balancing too many skills on each player.

Example imagine you want to be the sort of main healer in a group so others can focus on their roles,your not going to pick 5 dps and one healer's role ability,you are probably going to pick 2-3 heals and support/buffs/debuffs if the game even has the kind of depth.

As i said ,i have played every type of system out there in gaming and i always see FFXI's as being the best design.Having a sub class removes the nonsense of ALts,it allows your player to continue to grow and be versatile without ruining your actual ROLE.Having half the ability in your sub class also keeps your player in check,again not breaking the game and not removing your actual role into some jack of all trades,master of none role.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  Alumicard

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/01/10
Posts: 165

6/12/14 9:35:53 PM#87
The "problem" or conflict I see in this thread is that the op has a pre-fight point of view while the others have a in-fight point of view. And what makes this hilarious is both sides use the same argument to explain it but kind of deny the argument to the opposite side which is, simply put:

2>1 or more choices are better than fewer choices a.k.a. more is more

 

But both sides are correct and wrong at the same time because each only looks at one side of the coin.

The op with his limited skill bar system would have more choices before the fight starts. Because you have to use some skills and cant use all of them so you have to make a choice. With the argument being:

more is more.

 

But once you are in the fight you only have those limited number of skills which limits you in your actions which is the argument of the "dont limit the skill bar" faction. Which says that if you have 4 skills you have less options than if you had 7 skills or:

more is more

 

Both are correct but also away from the solution because each side only argues for its own point of view. So how do we solve this problem?

 

Well we could let both sides win and the way to do it is pretty easy. Just solve the problem that started the discussion and make both happy.

Give a choice of skills AND unlimited skill bars! How? Well... don't just create 20 skills to choose from, create 2000. Dont limit the skill bar to 5 skills, let people fill the whole screen with skills if they choose to do so. If you had 2000 skills, ok that might be too much and the devs whould have too many nightmares about balancing... if you had 200 skills you would never ever be able to use all of them which would automaticly lead to a limited skill bar. Even if you can put all on the screen you can never press all those buttons. And if you can: congratulations you are no longer human!

 

Macros isn't an argument because unless you only have to spam one button there will be people macroing 2 buttons. Believe me, I am one of them. Even in LoL* with its very limited 4 skills I use a macro for f.e. the Alistar charge-groundslam combo. Same with Diablo 3*, casting 2 buffs or 2 button attack combo = macro. Heck, I'd probably even put the one button on a loop so I dont have to spam it all the time. So let me correct that statement: there will always be some people who use macros

 

The only reason for limited skills bars I understand and accept is:

You dont have enough buttons. A controller f.e. doesnt have as many buttons as a keyboard so if someone makes a game for both platforms you might want to choose a system that works for both which means you have to settle for the smaller amount of buttons/skills available.

 

Otherwise e.g. in a MMORPG with 20 skills or so total I am strongly against limited skillbars because it makes the fights more or less the same no matter what you fight and it takes away options from the actual gameplay. If you dumb it down to its essence you could compare it with movement:

If you can only move forward and backward the dungeons are not very interesting but if you add left and right they might get pretty interesting. And if you add up and down then we are on a whole new level. If you took away half of the movement keys you might have to find a solution to a problem but you couldnt create complex dungeons because only one or 2 "specs" might be able to do them = illusion of choice.

 

*I dont want to insinuate that MOBAs or ARPGs are MMORPGs discussed here. They are just used as examples of games with small skillbars for which I had macros.

 

TL;DR Adding more skills than a human being can press would eliminate the need for limited skill bars. Limiting the amount of skills takes away possibilites from the game and promotes simple game design + often adds just the illusion of choice because there will always be a cookie cutter build for your class.

edit: +1 what Wizardry said about lazy devs

 

  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

 
OP  6/12/14 10:10:08 PM#88
Originally posted by Alumicard
The "problem" or conflict I see in this thread is that the op has a pre-fight point of view while the others have a in-fight point of view. And what makes this hilarious is both sides use the same argument to explain it but kind of deny the argument to the opposite side which is, simply put:

2>1 or more choices are better than fewer choices a.k.a. more is more

 

....

 

TL;DR Adding more skills than a human being can press would eliminate the need for limited skill bars. Limiting the amount of skills takes away possibilites from the game and promotes simple game design + often adds just the illusion of choice because there will always be a cookie cutter build for your class.

edit: +1 what Wizardry said about lazy devs

 

I get what you're saying, and I did think about this before.  But I don't think the whole limited vs. unlimited skill bar thing can just be simplified to a pre-fight vs. in-fight viewpoint.

In one sense, you are correct.  With a limited skill bar, in any specific fight, you will have less options than you would if you had an unlimited skill bar.

BUT, MMORPGs do not consist of just one fight.  There will be TONS of fights you participate in, in MMORPGs.  And with a limited skill bar, you will be able to drastically alter how your character plays from fight to fight, whenever you feel like it.  I view this as a huge plus.  

On the other hand, with an unlimited skill bar...you will basically always be the same class, and play roughly the same way.  Unless the game has something like talent trees...but talent trees basically do the same thing as a limited skill bar but in a much more clunky fashion.  You wind up never using the skills that you don't spec into because they suck.

Even worse, with talent trees you are limited to just a few builds because you have to spec deep into the trees to get the good stuff.  So even though you have an unlimited skill bar, you wind up being even MORE limited than you would be with a limited skill bar.

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  Alders

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/10
Posts: 1753

I cannot fiddle but I can make a great state of a small city.

6/12/14 10:25:20 PM#89

I prefer the limited skill set as apposed to the horrible EQ2 version of having 5-6 full bars of complete situational nonsense.

I don't like the number everyone keeps sitting on when they design limited though.  8 is too few and more than 20 is too many. For me 20 would be perfect as it would allow for two full bars of 1-10.

  craftseeker

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/11/09
Posts: 646

6/12/14 11:23:50 PM#90
Originally posted by Alders

I prefer the limited skill set as apposed to the horrible EQ2 version of having 5-6 full bars of complete situational nonsense.

I don't like the number everyone keeps sitting on when they design limited though.  8 is too few and more than 20 is too many. For me 20 would be perfect as it would allow for two full bars of 1-10.

While I like the EQ2 system of having all my abilities available all the time.

 

In fencing there are nine standard parries, they have been around for a few hundred years now.  When I hear that at Olympic level fencers have to nominate which three of these they will use in a bout before it starts and get penalized for using one of the other six: then and only then will I start to wonder if limited skill bars are a good thing.

Or to use another example, I understand that US football teams have a 'play book' do you think it would be a good idea if they have to nominate which eight plays they will be using to the umpire before the match starts and get penalized for doing something else?

  MadFrenchie

Elite Member

Joined: 5/02/14
Posts: 356

6/12/14 11:30:55 PM#91
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by Alumicard
The "problem" or conflict I see in this thread is that the op has a pre-fight point of view while the others have a in-fight point of view. And what makes this hilarious is both sides use the same argument to explain it but kind of deny the argument to the opposite side which is, simply put:

2>1 or more choices are better than fewer choices a.k.a. more is more

 

....

 

TL;DR Adding more skills than a human being can press would eliminate the need for limited skill bars. Limiting the amount of skills takes away possibilites from the game and promotes simple game design + often adds just the illusion of choice because there will always be a cookie cutter build for your class.

edit: +1 what Wizardry said about lazy devs

 

I get what you're saying, and I did think about this before.  But I don't think the whole limited vs. unlimited skill bar thing can just be simplified to a pre-fight vs. in-fight viewpoint.

In one sense, you are correct.  With a limited skill bar, in any specific fight, you will have less options than you would if you had an unlimited skill bar.

BUT, MMORPGs do not consist of just one fight.  There will be TONS of fights you participate in, in MMORPGs.  And with a limited skill bar, you will be able to drastically alter how your character plays from fight to fight, whenever you feel like it.  I view this as a huge plus.  

On the other hand, with an unlimited skill bar...you will basically always be the same class, and play roughly the same way.  Unless the game has something like talent trees...but talent trees basically do the same thing as a limited skill bar but in a much more clunky fashion.  You wind up never using the skills that you don't spec into because they suck.

Even worse, with talent trees you are limited to just a few builds because you have to spec deep into the trees to get the good stuff.  So even though you have an unlimited skill bar, you wind up being even MORE limited than you would be with a limited skill bar.

The number of slots on the skill bar has no bearing on how useful or flexible your skills are.  Just because you don't have to choose which of your abilities are placed on your skill bar, it doesn't mean your abilities automatically become one dimensional.  You just don't have to wait between fights to drastically alter how your character fights.  Just use different skills on your unlimited hot bar.

  daltanious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1906

6/13/14 2:12:38 AM#92
Originally posted by Creslin321

"Why limited skill bars are a good thing"

They are not. In any of possible ways or explanations. Btw, you are not forced to use 3 rows of buttons, use single one for whole game and leave to others to have haff screen filled with toolbars. As they say ... live and let othes live. :-)

  rojoArcueid

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Joined: 8/13/09
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"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

6/13/14 2:21:21 AM#93

In my opinion, limited Skillbars are done the best IF they allow for 2 or more builds (1 hotbar per build using a weapon swap button for possible builds with different weapons and skills).

GW1, GW2 and ESO did this right IMO (although they can still add a couple more skills). TSW did it half way but they skipped the second hotbar so that kinda sucked.

  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
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We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

6/13/14 2:27:51 AM#94
Agreed with everything the OP says.  Limited hotbars are a great thing for build diversity.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Loktofeit

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

6/13/14 3:15:48 AM#95
Originally posted by Tbau
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Tbau

Once again I am one step ahead of you.

Oh wait, I forgot that you mentioned earlier that MOBA combat is superior to MMORPG combat which explains everything. 

Tbau, I think you misunderstood what he wrote. He posted that MOBA combat is more complex than PVP combat in most MMOs and that's generally true. He did not say anything about one form of combat being superior to the other. 

And some people believe that complexity is required for a form of combat to be superior.

Some people also believe in ghosts. That still doesn't mean he wrote, inferred or implied that one was superior to the other.

The additional level of decision making and prediction of choosing a limited skill set set from a larger set, combined with the other mechanics of the game makes for a more complex combat system than the multi-bar cooldown system which often marginalizes the need for preparation or predicting what the enemy is bringing to battle. Older MMOs, such as Asheron's Call and Ultima Online, added the complexity in other ways, such as - but not limited to - allowing diversity of skill set, equipment-based choices (don't bring a sword to a skellie fight), varied or dynamic spawns, consumable combat items such as arrows and regs/comps, and gear weight. Many of those aspects have long since been removed from most MMOs, thus removing preparation and prediction from the combat equation. 

Wildstar is one of the few modern MMOs that bring back a certain level of "Ok, where am I headed, who am I going with, and what will I need?" It's an added dimension to combat, and certainly more complex than the popular, all-available systems where we will cast a chill spell on an ice elemental without ever thinking twice about it. 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Loktofeit

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Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

6/13/14 3:28:40 AM#96
Originally posted by craftseeker
Originally posted by Alders

I prefer the limited skill set as apposed to the horrible EQ2 version of having 5-6 full bars of complete situational nonsense.

I don't like the number everyone keeps sitting on when they design limited though.  8 is too few and more than 20 is too many. For me 20 would be perfect as it would allow for two full bars of 1-10.

While I like the EQ2 system of having all my abilities available all the time.

In fencing there are nine standard parries, they have been around for a few hundred years now.  When I hear that at Olympic level fencers have to nominate which three of these they will use in a bout before it starts and get penalized for using one of the other six: then and only then will I start to wonder if limited skill bars are a good thing.

Or to use another example, I understand that US football teams have a 'play book' do you think it would be a good idea if they have to nominate which eight plays they will be using to the umpire before the match starts and get penalized for doing something else?

I get the impression that you don't play many team sports. If you do, ask your coach if there is any rhyme or reason to how he decides the line up for each game. We can cherrypick sports back and forth if you want, and others will gladly chime in with "bad analogy, that's like [insert worse analogy] and we'll get nowhere. 

However, I do hope that you do talk to your coach or a coach of any kind to ask how they pick the line up, since every team is made up of more people that are allows to be on the field/court/ice/etc at any one time. I am not suggesting this as an analogy. This is not an analogy or comparison of any kind. 

The purpose of my suggestion is to have someone else help you understand (because you're simply not getting it here) how the limitation of being able to use only a subset of one's resources adds more complexity to a challenge, game or competition than being able to use everything one has at their disposal. 

 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  cybersurfr

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/13/04
Posts: 183

6/13/14 4:47:51 AM#97
Originally posted by Azrile

It does dumb down the game because it turns every mob into ´mob´ 

I will give two examples of skills that are being ´taken away´...

Lets suppose you are fighting a goblin, and then a skeleton.

With your 6-8 keys, those two mobs are exactly the same (assuming same level).  They both run up to you and whack you with swords.

Now lets add a skill  ´ turn undead´. 

This spell can be used to fear the skeleton for 4 seconds, but not the goblin.

Now these two mobs are completely different in how you fight them.

Now lets add a rock elemental that punches you in the face as it´s main attack.

And now lets add ´disarm´   another skill that is getting taken away when we reduce the game to 8 keys.

That skeleton attacks you, you can turn it ( fear it for 4 seconds)  and then you can disarm it, which reduces the damage it can do to you.

That goblin runs at you, you can disarm it

That rock elemental runs at you, those two skills are useless

Just in that brief example,  You now have 3 mobs which would be exactly the same in your game, but would be completely different if players had those two extra abilities to use.  Yes, there will ALWAYS be players who even if you gave them disarm and turn undead would still cast fireballx8 in the face.  But in a good game, those type of players should always perform worse than players who use all their skills effectively.  If I turn that skeleton and then disarm him, maybe I escape the encountered uninjured, where if you cast fireballx8  you finish at 75% health.

By removing skills, you turn every player in Fireballx8  and you turn that skeleton, goblin and rock elemental into ´mob lvl 12´

 

I will use WOW as an example, even though it has a lot of action bars, they still have dumbed it down

When fighting mobs while leveling, there are two mobs..  have ranged,   does not have ranged.   That is it... everything else is just the graphic used to represent the mob.  You may fight a ranged mob differently than a melee only mob.

As far as your skills.   1-90  I can level any character easily by only using 3 skills.  Nothing about the mob at all changes what keys I press.   I run up to the mob, any mob, and press  123332     mob is dead.   Nothing about the mob, nor nothing the mob does changes what abilities I use and in what order I use them.

that is dumbed down gameplay compared to what I talked about before.

+1 - You nailed it. I feel the exact same way about this trend of limiting skills. 

 

  xAPOCx

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 894

6/13/14 7:53:35 AM#98
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by Alumicard
The "problem" or conflict I see in this thread is that the op has a pre-fight point of view while the others have a in-fight point of view. And what makes this hilarious is both sides use the same argument to explain it but kind of deny the argument to the opposite side which is, simply put:

2>1 or more choices are better than fewer choices a.k.a. more is more

 

....

 

TL;DR Adding more skills than a human being can press would eliminate the need for limited skill bars. Limiting the amount of skills takes away possibilites from the game and promotes simple game design + often adds just the illusion of choice because there will always be a cookie cutter build for your class.

edit: +1 what Wizardry said about lazy devs

 

I get what you're saying, and I did think about this before.  But I don't think the whole limited vs. unlimited skill bar thing can just be simplified to a pre-fight vs. in-fight viewpoint.

In one sense, you are correct.  With a limited skill bar, in any specific fight, you will have less options than you would if you had an unlimited skill bar.

BUT, MMORPGs do not consist of just one fight.  There will be TONS of fights you participate in, in MMORPGs.  And with a limited skill bar, you will be able to drastically alter how your character plays from fight to fight, whenever you feel like it.  I view this as a huge plus.  

On the other hand, with an unlimited skill bar...you will basically always be the same class, and play roughly the same way.  Unless the game has something like talent trees...but talent trees basically do the same thing as a limited skill bar but in a much more clunky fashion.  You wind up never using the skills that you don't spec into because they suck.

Even worse, with talent trees you are limited to just a few builds because you have to spec deep into the trees to get the good stuff.  So even though you have an unlimited skill bar, you wind up being even MORE limited than you would be with a limited skill bar.

Im sorry i must be misinterpreting something wrong here. Am i to understand that having LESS skills available to me at any one time in a particular fight is GOOD? Correct me if im wrong but thats like having many sets of tires for your car and you would have to change them to coincide with the change in the weather. A set for dry days and rainy days and snow days and cold days and hot days and humid days..... Days being different mobs and the tires being "skills."

 

Why would you not want an all purpose tire "larger hotbars to be able to access all of your skills when needed." I dont want to have to go to my spell book every time i fight a mob and change out skills to suite the situation. Id rather have all my skills available to me at any giving time so i can assess the fight im in and make changes to fight style on the fly.

 

And not for nothing but MOBA style combat and MMORPG combat, IMO, should not be mixed.

  Axxar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/09/08
Posts: 2061

"See how I reward those who fail me!"

6/13/14 7:57:36 AM#99

I generally dislike limited skill bars. If you don't want players to have a huge skill selection you can simply reduce the skill selection rather than reduce the size of the skill bar.

Character customisation seems a reasonably logical place for the reduction to take place as you make choices on what kind of character you are building as you progress through the game.

"Tiny clown, he got wet. I was talking to a psychic and I can't sleep in the ozone. There are too many different peanuts, looking sad.

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2668

6/13/14 8:19:36 AM#100

Limited skill bars is neither good or bad.

Having tons of buttons is not a proof of complexity either.

Lets go back to the example of the goblin vs the skeleton.

The skill that turns undead is not complex at all - there is an undead you use it, there isn't you don't.

Unless by complexity one means having to twist the fingers to go press ctrl+shift+k which is the map for that skill.

In a limited skill bar you can also have turn undead skills. What you need to know is if the area/dungeon you going to as enough undeads that make it worth it.

And many actions MMORPGs allow changing builds on the fly - in GW2 all you need is to be outside combat.

Also, comparing the original Guild Wars with all the other games is stupid.

Most MMORPGs are filled with trash mobs and then have some special bosses with some mechanics.

Guild Wars 1 had no trash mobs because the game was party vs party and not player or party vs trash.

That meant in GW1 the most important part of the game was selecting every one of the 64 party skill slots.

You were going to fight tons of undead in GW1, you would pack some holy damage skills. You going to fight mobs with annoying conditions or hexes, well Restore Condition or Divert Hexes/Shatter hexes would find their way in the bars. Maybe the mobs used loads of enchantments, well lets pack shatter enchantment and pain of disenchantment.

It is also fun that generally the phrase "don't stand in the green goo" is used as an example of an advanced skill for less action oriented MMORPGs that have tons of skills available.

But games where "don't stand in the red circle" is used for the most basic fights are somehow not complex at all.

Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, King of Tokyo

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