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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why limited skill bars are a good thing

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220 posts found
  VengeSunsoar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4850

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

6/12/14 3:05:46 PM#61
At Kyleran n. Exactly. The fun and challenge is in knowing what to use and when. Not having the ability eliminated that imo.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

6/12/14 3:11:28 PM#62
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by Tbau
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by Tbau

Your argument is invalidated because you are leaving out the known fact that EQ1 became the first MMORPG to have players create their own UIs to replace the games limited version which was done for the purpose of the console version. The player created UIs popularity alongside what was done by players for AC1 led to the next gen of MMORPGS, DaoC/SWG to have more toolbars and SWG even went farther with a customizable UI. It also led Blizzard to allow mods in game.

and the train keeps on a rollin.

ummm this seems completely irrelevant to the argument.

Of course, because it invalidates the argument you provided. Cant have that! Much like ignoring my first post.

Your argument breaks down to this.

I like less options and I hate more options, because of potato, or at least may as well be potato since its all based on your personal preferences, not actual facts.

Examples,

Fact: Less is not more.

Less does not give more options than more.

Less does not provide more depth of combat than more.

More, is more.

To remove more, for less is to make things simpler.

You, like things simple.

I don't, I like complexity and depth.

I really think you're missing the point...

Let's try this, imagine these scenarios:

Scenario 1:  you are a team captain, you have to pick 7 players for your team and there are 7 players to choose from.

Scenario 2:  you are a team captain, you have to pick 4 players for your team and there are 7 players to choose from.

 

Which of these scenarios contains the more complex and interesting decision?  Anyone should know it's the second scenario.  Picking 7 players from a pool of 7 isn't a decision at all...but picking 4 definitely is.  Same logic with limited skill bar.

Agreed. It adds preparedness and prediction to the equation. When you have to choose a limited set from a larger pool there is now the consideration of what the opponent will have and what skills to choose to counter or mitigate that. 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  xAPOCx

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 893

6/12/14 3:27:12 PM#63
I couldn't disagree with the OP more. Limited skill bars is just that, limited. I could not imagine how classes like my necro or my BM would have played in Vanguard IF they had limited skills. I had so much fun with those classes and it has allot to do with the skills and how they worked in that world. Limiting skill bars is not the answer.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

6/12/14 3:32:48 PM#64
Originally posted by xAPOCx
I couldn't disagree with the OP more. Limited skill bars is just that, limited. I could not imagine how classes like my necro or my BM would have played in Vanguard IF they had limited skills. I had so much fun with those classes and it has allot to do with the skills and how they worked in that world. Limiting skill bars is not the answer.

Game mechanics aren't plug-n-play. What works well in one game may be horrible in another. MOBAs are a great genre to look at in regard to limited sets. Part of the complexity is having a group composition that complements each other's attack/defense type and provides sufficient counter for what the other team plans to bring down the line of both archetypes and damage type. 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  User Deleted
6/12/14 3:38:28 PM#65


Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by xAPOCx I couldn't disagree with the OP more. Limited skill bars is just that, limited. I could not imagine how classes like my necro or my BM would have played in Vanguard IF they had limited skills. I had so much fun with those classes and it has allot to do with the skills and how they worked in that world. Limiting skill bars is not the answer.
Game mechanics aren't plug-n-play. What works well in one game may be horrible in another. MOBAs are a great genre to look at in regard to limited sets. Part of the complexity is having a group composition that complements each other's attack/defense type and provides sufficient counter for what the other team plans to bring down the line of both archetypes and damage type. 


Agreed. Its all about what works with with they type of combat you are going for.

Unlimited vs limited skills doesn't correlate to simple vs complex games. There are numerous examples of every type of combat both working and not working.

I think its fair to acknowledge that at least.

  barasawa

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/05
Posts: 209

I have a wandering mind, but that's ok, it brings back presents.

6/12/14 3:54:47 PM#66

Let's see, what's the real difference between one skill with a 2 second cast and  a no cooldown that does ~500 damage being cast 6 times, and six skills with a 2 second cast each and a 12 second cooldown each and ~ 500 damage each being cast once each in sequence?

Both ways you get about ~250 dps, except with the second version, you need to take up six buttons unless you can bind them to macros.

Haven't you noticed that games, Rift included, that have a lot of these different attack skills/spells that you end up having to use are all pretty much the same? Sure, they have different names, and sometimes some different graphics, and the damage is slightly different, but they still boil down to very minor variations of the exact same thing.

Why have so many duplicates except to be able to make it LOOK like there's more there than there actually is.

After all, if one guy has a bushel of oranges that weights 25 lbs, and another guys has 25 lbs of oranges that would fill a bushel, why argue over it. Unless of course the guy with the bushel gets to use the bushel basket, and the guy with the 25 lbs has to try and fit them in his pockets or whatever because he doesn't get a basket...

 

It boils down to multiple skills/buttons for the same character that do significantly the same thing are a waste of resources.

Lost my mind, now trying to lose yours...

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1036

6/12/14 4:00:24 PM#67

I think what developers are missing out with limited skill bars are non-combat abilities.  They also need to grant a ton of abilities.  I don't like one character does it all with a button push.  Pick your path.  If you want to change it then stick with the new one or make an alt.  

 

I would perfer 10 combat abilities active and unlimited utility spells able to be up.  

  JOverlord

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/11/14
Posts: 141

6/12/14 4:19:31 PM#68
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by Tbau
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by Tbau

Your argument is invalidated because you are leaving out the known fact that EQ1 became the first MMORPG to have players create their own UIs to replace the games limited version which was done for the purpose of the console version. The player created UIs popularity alongside what was done by players for AC1 led to the next gen of MMORPGS, DaoC/SWG to have more toolbars and SWG even went farther with a customizable UI. It also led Blizzard to allow mods in game.

and the train keeps on a rollin.

ummm this seems completely irrelevant to the argument.

Of course, because it invalidates the argument you provided. Cant have that! Much like ignoring my first post.

Your argument breaks down to this.

I like less options and I hate more options, because of potato, or at least may as well be potato since its all based on your personal preferences, not actual facts.

Examples,

Fact: Less is not more.

Less does not give more options than more.

Less does not provide more depth of combat than more.

More, is more.

To remove more, for less is to make things simpler.

You, like things simple.

I don't, I like complexity and depth.

I really think you're missing the point...

Let's try this, imagine these scenarios:

 

Scenario 1:  you are a team captain, you have to pick 7 players for your team and there are 7 players to choose from.

Scenario 2:  you are a team captain, you have to pick 4 players for your team and there are 7 players to choose from.

 

Which of these scenarios contains the more complex and interesting decision?  Anyone should know it's the second scenario.  Picking 7 players from a pool of 7 isn't a decision at all...but picking 4 definitely is.  Same logic with limited skill bar.

Thats not the argument though. The argument is using 10 players out of 50 players, with the ability to use all 50 players or using 4 out of 50. The team that can use 10 players will have all of the bases covered, the team with 4 will not be able to have people in the outfield, wont have a catcher, etc. The team is now gimped.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

6/12/14 4:46:32 PM#69
Originally posted by barasawa

Let's see, what's the real difference between one skill with a 2 second cast and  a no cooldown that does ~500 damage being cast 6 times, and six skills with a 2 second cast each and a 12 second cooldown each and ~ 500 damage each being cast once each in sequence?

Both ways you get about ~250 dps, except with the second version, you need to take up six buttons unless you can bind them to macros.

You'd royally suck at Guild Wars PVP. 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

 
OP  6/12/14 4:55:59 PM#70
Originally posted by JOverlord
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by Tbau
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by Tbau

Your argument is invalidated because you are leaving out the known fact that EQ1 became the first MMORPG to have players create their own UIs to replace the games limited version which was done for the purpose of the console version. The player created UIs popularity alongside what was done by players for AC1 led to the next gen of MMORPGS, DaoC/SWG to have more toolbars and SWG even went farther with a customizable UI. It also led Blizzard to allow mods in game.

and the train keeps on a rollin.

ummm this seems completely irrelevant to the argument.

Of course, because it invalidates the argument you provided. Cant have that! Much like ignoring my first post.

Your argument breaks down to this.

I like less options and I hate more options, because of potato, or at least may as well be potato since its all based on your personal preferences, not actual facts.

Examples,

Fact: Less is not more.

Less does not give more options than more.

Less does not provide more depth of combat than more.

More, is more.

To remove more, for less is to make things simpler.

You, like things simple.

I don't, I like complexity and depth.

I really think you're missing the point...

Let's try this, imagine these scenarios:

 

Scenario 1:  you are a team captain, you have to pick 7 players for your team and there are 7 players to choose from.

Scenario 2:  you are a team captain, you have to pick 4 players for your team and there are 7 players to choose from.

 

Which of these scenarios contains the more complex and interesting decision?  Anyone should know it's the second scenario.  Picking 7 players from a pool of 7 isn't a decision at all...but picking 4 definitely is.  Same logic with limited skill bar.

Thats not the argument though. The argument is using 10 players out of 50 players, with the ability to use all 50 players or using 4 out of 50. The team that can use 10 players will have all of the bases covered, the team with 4 will not be able to have people in the outfield, wont have a catcher, etc. The team is now gimped.

This makes no sense as an analogy.  If a game has a limited skill bar EVERY player in the game has the same limited skill bar (roughly).  It's not like one player gets to use 10 skills, and another gets to use 50 (assuming both are at max level).

Your analogy states that one team has 4 players (skills) and the other has 10 players (skills).  That is not how limited skill bar games are designed.

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

 
OP  6/12/14 5:00:33 PM#71
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

I think what developers are missing out with limited skill bars are non-combat abilities.  They also need to grant a ton of abilities.  I don't like one character does it all with a button push.  Pick your path.  If you want to change it then stick with the new one or make an alt.  

 

I would perfer 10 combat abilities active and unlimited utility spells able to be up.  

Yep, I agree with this.  Provided that the utilities don't have combat use like blink or defense things.  Abilities like recall or flavor abilities would be fine though.

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  Azrile

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/29/08
Posts: 2615

6/12/14 5:40:23 PM#72

I get the whole ´set up your team wisely´  part of it.

But gameplay wise... you are still talking about killing thousands of mobs, using exactly the same 3-4 skills over and over again...

Sure, as a raid leader it makes it more interesting if everyone can only have 4 skills and YOU get to choose what skills everyone brings.  But for those players??   1232324231    for 30 hours a week?

and again, the less skills you have, the less thinking you need to do before pushing those spells.    MMORPGs, by their very nature involve killing a lot of mobs..  if you only have a few skills, then every mob is going to be killed exactly the same way.

Play DDO online, and play Diablo3.... both are great games, but DDO involves much more interesting combat and much more strategy because you have dozens of useful abilities that become less or more important depending on what you are fighting.

Again, if you like smashing the 1 key repeatedly and calling that a challenge, more power to you.  But it is boring and mindless gameplay.

  Tbau

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/07/14
Posts: 407

6/12/14 5:41:40 PM#73
Originally posted by Creslin321

I really think you're missing the point...

Let's try this, imagine these scenarios:

 

Scenario 1:  you are a team captain, you have to pick 7 players for your team and there are 7 players to choose from.

Scenario 2:  you are a team captain, you have to pick 4 players for your team and there are 7 players to choose from.

 

Which of these scenarios contains the more complex and interesting decision?  Anyone should know it's the second scenario.  Picking 7 players from a pool of 7 isn't a decision at all...but picking 4 definitely is.  Same logic with limited skill bar.

Your example does not match the actual points of the discussion.

 

Scenario 1: you are a team captain, you have a team of 53 players consisting of an offensive unit, a defensive unit, a special teams unit with the remaining as backup players incase of injury or super special situations. This is American FOOTBALL.

Scenario 2: you have Tom, Ted, Ned, Ben and Jerry. Have fun playing tag.

 

Get it yet? Doubt it because you are pushing personal opinions as facts instead of just as your personal preference. Your preference does not trump universal truths.

  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

 
OP  6/12/14 5:45:44 PM#74
Originally posted by Azrile

I get the whole ´set up your team wisely´  part of it.

But gameplay wise... you are still talking about killing thousands of mobs, using exactly the same 3-4 skills over and over again...

Sure, as a raid leader it makes it more interesting if everyone can only have 4 skills and YOU get to choose what skills everyone brings.  But for those players??   1232324231    for 30 hours a week?

and again, the less skills you have, the less thinking you need to do before pushing those spells.    MMORPGs, by their very nature involve killing a lot of mobs..  if you only have a few skills, then every mob is going to be killed exactly the same way.

Play DDO online, and play Diablo3.... both are great games, but DDO involves much more interesting combat and much more strategy because you have dozens of useful abilities that become less or more important depending on what you are fighting.

Again, if you like smashing the 1 key repeatedly and calling that a challenge, more power to you.  But it is boring and mindless gameplay.

Play a MOBA, then tell me if you are doing the same 3-4 skills on rotation ;).

I do think that for an MMORPG though, 3-4 skills are too few.  I think that 8-12 is a good number.

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

 
OP  6/12/14 5:47:21 PM#75
Originally posted by Tbau
Originally posted by Creslin321

I really think you're missing the point...

Let's try this, imagine these scenarios:

 

Scenario 1:  you are a team captain, you have to pick 7 players for your team and there are 7 players to choose from.

Scenario 2:  you are a team captain, you have to pick 4 players for your team and there are 7 players to choose from.

 

Which of these scenarios contains the more complex and interesting decision?  Anyone should know it's the second scenario.  Picking 7 players from a pool of 7 isn't a decision at all...but picking 4 definitely is.  Same logic with limited skill bar.

Your example does not match the actual points of the discussion.

 

Scenario 1: you are a team captain, you have a team of 53 players consisting of an offensive unit, a defensive unit, a special teams unit with the remaining as backup players incase of injury or super special situations. This is American FOOTBALL.

Scenario 2: you have Tom, Ted, Ned, Ben and Jerry. Have fun playing tag.

 

Get it yet? Doubt it because you are pushing personal opinions as facts instead of just as your personal preference. Your preference does not trump universal truths.

I can so confidently that I definitely do not get it...if "it" is whatever it is you are trying to convey with your posts, and I don't think I ever will lol ;).

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  Tbau

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/07/14
Posts: 407

6/12/14 6:07:10 PM#76
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by Tbau

Get it yet? Doubt it because you are pushing personal opinions as facts instead of just as your personal preference. Your preference does not trump universal truths.

I can so confidently that I definitely do not get it...if "it" is whatever it is you are trying to convey with your posts, and I don't think I ever will lol ;).

Once again I am one step ahead of you.

Oh wait, I forgot that you mentioned earlier that MOBA combat is superior to MMORPG combat which explains everything. 

  tixylix

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 1121

6/12/14 6:18:04 PM#77
I miss the days of Vanilla WoW or even SWTOR, where I'd have 40 odd skills all organised the way I like and managing them all.
  coorsguys

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/20/13
Posts: 312

6/12/14 6:22:00 PM#78
Originally posted by Tbau
Originally posted by Creslin321

I really think you're missing the point...

Let's try this, imagine these scenarios:

 

Scenario 1:  you are a team captain, you have to pick 7 players for your team and there are 7 players to choose from.

Scenario 2:  you are a team captain, you have to pick 4 players for your team and there are 7 players to choose from.

 

Which of these scenarios contains the more complex and interesting decision?  Anyone should know it's the second scenario.  Picking 7 players from a pool of 7 isn't a decision at all...but picking 4 definitely is.  Same logic with limited skill bar.

Your example does not match the actual points of the discussion.

 

Scenario 1: you are a team captain, you have a team of 53 players consisting of an offensive unit, a defensive unit, a special teams unit with the remaining as backup players incase of injury or super special situations. This is American FOOTBALL.

Scenario 2: you have Tom, Ted, Ned, Ben and Jerry. Have fun playing tag.

 

Get it yet? Doubt it because you are pushing personal opinions as facts instead of just as your personal preference. Your preference does not trump universal truths.

Your scenario one is incorrect.  In American FOOTBALL you have 2 Offensive captains, 2 defensive captains and 2 special teams captains for a grand total of 6 captains.  

  Tbau

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/07/14
Posts: 407

6/12/14 6:26:11 PM#79
Originally posted by coorsguys
Originally posted by Tbau

Your example does not match the actual points of the discussion.

Scenario 1: you are a team captain, you have a team of 53 players consisting of an offensive unit, a defensive unit, a special teams unit with the remaining as backup players incase of injury or super special situations. This is American FOOTBALL.

Scenario 2: you have Tom, Ted, Ned, Ben and Jerry. Have fun playing tag.

 

Get it yet? Doubt it because you are pushing personal opinions as facts instead of just as your personal preference. Your preference does not trump universal truths.

Your scenario one is incorrect.  In American FOOTBALL you have 2 Offensive captains, 2 defensive captains and 2 special teams captains for a grand total of 6 captains.  

Slight difference between the word "THE" and the word "A".

"The team captain" would be, the only captain, which I did not say.

However I did like the vain attempt at dismantling the argument with something that has nothing to actually do with the point made.

Oh and BTW, football does have team captains as well as unit captains.......

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

6/12/14 6:33:12 PM#80
Originally posted by Tbau
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by Tbau

Get it yet? Doubt it because you are pushing personal opinions as facts instead of just as your personal preference. Your preference does not trump universal truths.

I can so confidently that I definitely do not get it...if "it" is whatever it is you are trying to convey with your posts, and I don't think I ever will lol ;).

Once again I am one step ahead of you.

Oh wait, I forgot that you mentioned earlier that MOBA combat is superior to MMORPG combat which explains everything. 

Tbau, I think you misunderstood what he wrote. He posted that MOBA combat is more complex than PVP combat in most MMOs and that's generally true. He did not say anything about one form of combat being superior to the other. 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

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