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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why limited skill bars are a good thing

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220 posts found
  Chrisbox

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/15/10
Posts: 1637

6/17/14 10:01:31 PM#201
Originally posted by Naevius

Limiting your skills in any single encounter adds strategy to tactics - not only do you need to know how to use the skills you have, but you need to plan ahead to make sure you have the skills you need.

The design concept goes back to spellcasters in pen and paper D&D, who needed to pick which skills to memorize.

 

The problem is that this ISN'T the case in modern pve focused MMO's.

First off every damage dealer regardless of how many skills they have will be taking the highest damage output.

Limiting skills also completely takes the skill out of learning how to use the skills you have like you mentioned.  The whole challenge of doing that is when you have an overwhelming amount of skills at your disposal and have to learn when and how to use them properly, when you limit it to a single digit number you take all of that away.

 

Played-Everything
Playing-FFXIV:ARR

  Loktofeit

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12406

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

6/17/14 10:07:23 PM#202
Originally posted by Chrisbox
Originally posted by Naevius

Limiting your skills in any single encounter adds strategy to tactics - not only do you need to know how to use the skills you have, but you need to plan ahead to make sure you have the skills you need.

The design concept goes back to spellcasters in pen and paper D&D, who needed to pick which skills to memorize.

 

The problem is that this ISN'T the case in modern pve focused MMO's.

First off every damage dealer regardless of how many skills they have will be taking the highest damage output.

Limiting skills also completely takes the skill out of learning how to use the skills you have like you mentioned.  The whole challenge of doing that is when you have an overwhelming amount of skills at your disposal and have to learn when and how to use them properly, when you limit it to a single digit number you take all of that away.

 

If we are talking about a game with no resistances, damage types, range considerations, attack positioning or other elements of combat outside of strict DPS, then you are correct. 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Gaia_Hunter

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2677

6/18/14 12:20:59 PM#203
Originally posted by MadFrenchie
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

"When I was young, MMORPGS had billions of skills and none of that movement! Those were proper MMORPGs!",

The fun part is that those MMORPGs didn't actually have those many skills.

Now you're talking in generalizations, too.  And as they were wrong for using such generalizations, so are you.

 

DaoC Paladin twisted 3/4 chants to gain the temporary effects of all 3/4.  That was 3/4 skill slots, unless you macro'd it.  Even if you macro'd, you'd need multiple macros to change out which chants you twisted depending upon the situation.  The chants included, but were not limited to: heal, endurance, resistance (two different sets), ablative armor, and combat speed.

 

Paladin also had Resurrection, Taunt, self buffs, shield skills (if not 2h), and weapon skills.  Shield skills contained combos of 2-3 weapon skills, as did your weapon skill tree.  These combos started based on situational requirements, and had different traits and effects.  Almost all were useful, depending upon the situation and build.

 

That would never have fit onto an 8-slot skill bar.  Not even a 10-slot.

Lets look at GW2.

Guardian skills

   F1 F2 F3

   1 2 3 4 5  6 7 8 9 0

`  1 2 3 4 5

    V F

That is 20 skills and some of them might even add different skills.

Elemetalist skills

 F1 F2 F3 F4

1 2 3 4 5  6 7 8 9 0

1 2 3 4 5 

1 2 3 4 5

1 2 3 4 5

 V F

31 skills accessible and some of the 7-0 might add another 1 2 3 4 5.

You have a ton of skills, they just aren't visible.

So you need to take in account weapon swap (attunement) cooldown and guess the cooldown of the hidden skills.

Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, King of Tokyo

  ShrewdDuck

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/13
Posts: 21

6/18/14 12:40:33 PM#204
Limited skill hence limited skill bar. That is all.
  wargfoot

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/26/11
Posts: 53

6/18/14 12:58:05 PM#205
Originally posted by Azrile

It does dumb down the game because it turns every mob into ´mob´ 

I've a couple of problems with your golem/skeleton/goblin example:

 

1: Shouldn't a quest be written with enough care, and shouldn't there be enough visual cues in a game, for the player to figure out before combat what skills should be slotted?   If the game has you running into goblins and golems in the crypt of the liche king then maybe the developer needs new content designers.  Environment and lore and context should be giving players a clue.

 

2: I guess I don't understand why the players are insisting on godmode in every encounter.  In your example the fireball shooting spazbot ends with 75% health when going up against skeletons or rock golems.  I say the fool should be dead.   In too many games it is possible to beat a demon with fire for cryin' out loud - is the player base so soft that they cannot handle a loss anymore.

 

And no, by removing skills you don't turn the players into fireball shooting bots - in a good game they choose to ignore the lore/visual cues/quests and take fireballs into every fight - not because of limited skills but because the game doesn't punish them for being stupid.  Players can be entirely ignorant of the world and still succeed - that is wrong.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20652

6/18/14 1:35:06 PM#206
Originally posted by Chrisbox
Originally posted by Naevius

Limiting your skills in any single encounter adds strategy to tactics - not only do you need to know how to use the skills you have, but you need to plan ahead to make sure you have the skills you need.

The design concept goes back to spellcasters in pen and paper D&D, who needed to pick which skills to memorize.

 

The problem is that this ISN'T the case in modern pve focused MMO's.

It is the case in D3 .. which is close enough to a pve MMO with instanced dungeon runs. May be MMOs should learn a thing or two from D3 about skill designs.

(and just that if you don't know .. highest sheet dps means little in D3 when burst, elite dps, AOE dps, channel vs moving, CD reduction on important skills, situational dps, and defense are all important.)

  Chrisbox

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/15/10
Posts: 1637

6/18/14 6:04:14 PM#207
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Chrisbox
Originally posted by Naevius

Limiting your skills in any single encounter adds strategy to tactics - not only do you need to know how to use the skills you have, but you need to plan ahead to make sure you have the skills you need.

The design concept goes back to spellcasters in pen and paper D&D, who needed to pick which skills to memorize.

 

The problem is that this ISN'T the case in modern pve focused MMO's.

First off every damage dealer regardless of how many skills they have will be taking the highest damage output.

Limiting skills also completely takes the skill out of learning how to use the skills you have like you mentioned.  The whole challenge of doing that is when you have an overwhelming amount of skills at your disposal and have to learn when and how to use them properly, when you limit it to a single digit number you take all of that away.

 

If we are talking about a game with no resistances, damage types, range considerations, attack positioning or other elements of combat outside of strict DPS, then you are correct. 

Soooo like I said every modern PVE focused mmo out right now. 

Resistances and damage types that actually effect class-play haven't been a thing in a long time. Each ability has its own range that you can hit the boss or player from, or in wildstar case each class has its own telegraph size that you can hit with.  75% abilities don't have specific position requirements other than say the dragoon/monk in FFXIV or the rogue/monk in WoW that benefit from using certain skills on the behind or flank of a mob. 

 

Played-Everything
Playing-FFXIV:ARR

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20652

6/18/14 7:12:21 PM#208
Originally posted by Chrisbox

Resistances and damage types that actually effect class-play haven't been a thing in a long time.

Uh? Have you played D3? There is the big debate on wiz forums about fire vs arcane, and all sort other other non-DPS related efficiency issues (for example, using a weapon with multiple damage type to trigger passive skills or gear bonus).

 

  Chrisbox

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/15/10
Posts: 1637

6/18/14 7:21:25 PM#209
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Chrisbox

Resistances and damage types that actually effect class-play haven't been a thing in a long time.

Uh? Have you played D3? There is the big debate on wiz forums about fire vs arcane, and all sort other other non-DPS related efficiency issues (for example, using a weapon with multiple damage type to trigger passive skills or gear bonus).

 

This is fairly off topic to the point I was trying to get across but D3 is actually a good example of how elemental damage types on gear can effect the skills you bring, but I don't consider it an MMO by any stretch and the only reason that system works in that game is because it isn't a true mmo.  For those reasons I have not kept it in mind when making any of my previous comments which is also why I didn't respond to you the first time. D3 would never be a prime example for the discussion because we're talking about limited skill bars in MMO's versus other forms of class skill layouts and how they apply to raiding content, open world content, pvp etc which is content not found in d3.  

 

Played-Everything
Playing-FFXIV:ARR

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20652

6/18/14 8:00:39 PM#210
Originally posted by Chrisbox
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Chrisbox

Resistances and damage types that actually effect class-play haven't been a thing in a long time.

Uh? Have you played D3? There is the big debate on wiz forums about fire vs arcane, and all sort other other non-DPS related efficiency issues (for example, using a weapon with multiple damage type to trigger passive skills or gear bonus).

 

This is fairly off topic to the point I was trying to get across but D3 is actually a good example of how elemental damage types on gear can effect the skills you bring, but I don't consider it an MMO by any stretch and the only reason that system works in that game is because it isn't a true mmo.  For those reasons I have not kept it in mind when making any of my previous comments which is also why I didn't respond to you the first time. D3 would never be a prime example for the discussion because we're talking about limited skill bars in MMO's versus other forms of class skill layouts and how they apply to raiding content, open world content, pvp etc which is content not found in d3.  

 

There is little difference between a D3 MP game, and a 5-man dungeon run in a MMO. And that is little difference to make it a 10-man raid vs a 5-man dungeon.

How is it not possible for a MMO to adopt an elemental damage system like in D3? Tell me one reason why you cannot have 5 types of elemental damage in a raid. I don't see any.

 

 

  Chrisbox

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/15/10
Posts: 1637

6/18/14 9:47:26 PM#211
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Chrisbox
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Chrisbox

Resistances and damage types that actually effect class-play haven't been a thing in a long time.

Uh? Have you played D3? There is the big debate on wiz forums about fire vs arcane, and all sort other other non-DPS related efficiency issues (for example, using a weapon with multiple damage type to trigger passive skills or gear bonus).

 

This is fairly off topic to the point I was trying to get across but D3 is actually a good example of how elemental damage types on gear can effect the skills you bring, but I don't consider it an MMO by any stretch and the only reason that system works in that game is because it isn't a true mmo.  For those reasons I have not kept it in mind when making any of my previous comments which is also why I didn't respond to you the first time. D3 would never be a prime example for the discussion because we're talking about limited skill bars in MMO's versus other forms of class skill layouts and how they apply to raiding content, open world content, pvp etc which is content not found in d3.  

 

There is little difference between a D3 MP game, and a 5-man dungeon run in a MMO. And that is little difference to make it a 10-man raid vs a 5-man dungeon.

How is it not possible for a MMO to adopt an elemental damage system like in D3? Tell me one reason why you cannot have 5 types of elemental damage in a raid. I don't see any.

 

 

Can't really take you seriously after that one, but here's your one reason: D3 is a game based around farming legendary items that make certain spells in your spellbook more powerful or weak depending on the element this only works because of how limited the amount of skills you have out at once is, its a very boring design with no depth. Oh got this legendary? Now spell A or more powerful than spell B and i get to spam that woohoo!!!  MMO's aren't designed like that. Good ones atleast.  Most also follow a holy trinity, which would counter everything about d3. 

Played-Everything
Playing-FFXIV:ARR

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20652

6/19/14 12:56:18 PM#212
Originally posted by Chrisbox
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Chrisbox
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Chrisbox

Resistances and damage types that actually effect class-play haven't been a thing in a long time.

Uh? Have you played D3? There is the big debate on wiz forums about fire vs arcane, and all sort other other non-DPS related efficiency issues (for example, using a weapon with multiple damage type to trigger passive skills or gear bonus).

 

This is fairly off topic to the point I was trying to get across but D3 is actually a good example of how elemental damage types on gear can effect the skills you bring, but I don't consider it an MMO by any stretch and the only reason that system works in that game is because it isn't a true mmo.  For those reasons I have not kept it in mind when making any of my previous comments which is also why I didn't respond to you the first time. D3 would never be a prime example for the discussion because we're talking about limited skill bars in MMO's versus other forms of class skill layouts and how they apply to raiding content, open world content, pvp etc which is content not found in d3.  

 

There is little difference between a D3 MP game, and a 5-man dungeon run in a MMO. And that is little difference to make it a 10-man raid vs a 5-man dungeon.

How is it not possible for a MMO to adopt an elemental damage system like in D3? Tell me one reason why you cannot have 5 types of elemental damage in a raid. I don't see any.

 

 

Can't really take you seriously after that one, but here's your one reason: D3 is a game based around farming legendary items that make certain spells in your spellbook more powerful or weak depending on the element this only works because of how limited the amount of skills you have out at once is, its a very boring design with no depth. Oh got this legendary? Now spell A or more powerful than spell B and i get to spam that woohoo!!!  MMO's aren't designed like that. Good ones atleast.  Most also follow a holy trinity, which would counter everything about d3. 

May be they should. If you change the D3 lobby into a 3D city, there is practically no difference between that and a modern MMO. MMO should learn from D3 design.

And why would we need holy trinity in all games? D3 MP dungeon runs work well without it.

 

  Chrisbox

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/15/10
Posts: 1637

6/19/14 9:50:06 PM#213
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Chrisbox
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Chrisbox
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Chrisbox

Resistances and damage types that actually effect class-play haven't been a thing in a long time.

Uh? Have you played D3? There is the big debate on wiz forums about fire vs arcane, and all sort other other non-DPS related efficiency issues (for example, using a weapon with multiple damage type to trigger passive skills or gear bonus).

 

This is fairly off topic to the point I was trying to get across but D3 is actually a good example of how elemental damage types on gear can effect the skills you bring, but I don't consider it an MMO by any stretch and the only reason that system works in that game is because it isn't a true mmo.  For those reasons I have not kept it in mind when making any of my previous comments which is also why I didn't respond to you the first time. D3 would never be a prime example for the discussion because we're talking about limited skill bars in MMO's versus other forms of class skill layouts and how they apply to raiding content, open world content, pvp etc which is content not found in d3.  

 

There is little difference between a D3 MP game, and a 5-man dungeon run in a MMO. And that is little difference to make it a 10-man raid vs a 5-man dungeon.

How is it not possible for a MMO to adopt an elemental damage system like in D3? Tell me one reason why you cannot have 5 types of elemental damage in a raid. I don't see any.

 

 

Can't really take you seriously after that one, but here's your one reason: D3 is a game based around farming legendary items that make certain spells in your spellbook more powerful or weak depending on the element this only works because of how limited the amount of skills you have out at once is, its a very boring design with no depth. Oh got this legendary? Now spell A or more powerful than spell B and i get to spam that woohoo!!!  MMO's aren't designed like that. Good ones atleast.  Most also follow a holy trinity, which would counter everything about d3. 

May be they should. If you change the D3 lobby into a 3D city, there is practically no difference between that and a modern MMO. MMO should learn from D3 design.

And why would we need holy trinity in all games? D3 MP dungeon runs work well without it.

 

Did you see what happened with GW2? That's why. 

Played-Everything
Playing-FFXIV:ARR

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20652

6/20/14 12:27:56 PM#214
Originally posted by Chrisbox

 

May be they should. If you change the D3 lobby into a 3D city, there is practically no difference between that and a modern MMO. MMO should learn from D3 design.

And why would we need holy trinity in all games? D3 MP dungeon runs work well without it.

 

Did you see what happened with GW2? That's why. 

What is the problem with GW2? In fact, isn't it an example of that MMOs don't need the holy trinity. Heck, no more waiting for a healer to show up on your LFD .. and i chalk that up as a GOOD thing.

 

  woodyfly

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/01/06
Posts: 61

6/30/14 6:55:46 AM#215

I love a huuuge number of spells at my disposal, it makes me feel like I'm truly in control of the game. My most enjoyable experience was in aion with the spiritmaster. A pet class that could solo dungeon content bosses IF you play it PERFECTLY. There was not a second to rest. Juggling between doing damage, timing potions, dispelling cc, healing pet, managing aggro between pet and myself, managing mana, it was so satisfying to control every aspect of a battle.

Nowadays they come out with these goddamn console inspired games where you repeatedly spam one button for end of days and faceroll every generic mob. I got ffxiv and I've been spamming my 'stone' spell for 6 hours straight which has a 2.5 GLOBAL COOLDOWN. I can't believe people play this sht...

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20652

6/30/14 12:27:45 PM#216
Originally posted by Chrisbox

 

The problem is that this ISN'T the case in modern pve focused MMO's.

First off every damage dealer regardless of how many skills they have will be taking the highest damage output.

 

Clearly no true for Diablo 3 (close enough to MMOs).

zero-DPS monk is a good example of NOT taking highest damage output.

Gearing for CD (instead of raw DPS) is another example.

And even damage output is not just one number. There is burst, single-target, AOE, which takes different skills combo.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20652

6/30/14 12:29:35 PM#217
Originally posted by woodyfly

I love a huuuge number of spells at my disposal, it makes me feel like I'm truly in control of the game. My most enjoyable experience was in aion with the spiritmaster. A pet class that could solo dungeon content bosses IF you play it PERFECTLY. There was not a second to rest. Juggling between doing damage, timing potions, dispelling cc, healing pet, managing aggro between pet and myself, managing mana, it was so satisfying to control every aspect of a battle.

Nowadays they come out with these goddamn console inspired games where you repeatedly spam one button for end of days and faceroll every generic mob. I got ffxiv and I've been spamming my 'stone' spell for 6 hours straight which has a 2.5 GLOBAL COOLDOWN. I can't believe people play this sht...

So you argument is that your preference? Well, other people have different preferences too.

I feel MORE challenging and fun to have a meta game about what builds to use, and how to gear it than just having 20 buttons at my disposal whenever i fight.

I can't believe people don't understand their way is not the only way.

 

  woodyfly

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/01/06
Posts: 61

7/01/14 6:27:19 AM#218
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by woodyfly

I love a huuuge number of spells at my disposal, it makes me feel like I'm truly in control of the game. My most enjoyable experience was in aion with the spiritmaster. A pet class that could solo dungeon content bosses IF you play it PERFECTLY. There was not a second to rest. Juggling between doing damage, timing potions, dispelling cc, healing pet, managing aggro between pet and myself, managing mana, it was so satisfying to control every aspect of a battle.

Nowadays they come out with these goddamn console inspired games where you repeatedly spam one button for end of days and faceroll every generic mob. I got ffxiv and I've been spamming my 'stone' spell for 6 hours straight which has a 2.5 GLOBAL COOLDOWN. I can't believe people play this sht...

So you argument is that your preference? Well, other people have different preferences too.

I feel MORE challenging and fun to have a meta game about what builds to use, and how to gear it than just having 20 buttons at my disposal whenever i fight.

I can't believe people don't understand their way is not the only way.

 

Nowhere did I say that my way is the only way. I simply stated what my preference was.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20652

7/01/14 1:09:57 PM#219
Originally posted by woodyfly
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by woodyfly

I love a huuuge number of spells at my disposal, it makes me feel like I'm truly in control of the game. My most enjoyable experience was in aion with the spiritmaster. A pet class that could solo dungeon content bosses IF you play it PERFECTLY. There was not a second to rest. Juggling between doing damage, timing potions, dispelling cc, healing pet, managing aggro between pet and myself, managing mana, it was so satisfying to control every aspect of a battle.

Nowadays they come out with these goddamn console inspired games where you repeatedly spam one button for end of days and faceroll every generic mob. I got ffxiv and I've been spamming my 'stone' spell for 6 hours straight which has a 2.5 GLOBAL COOLDOWN. I can't believe people play this sht...

So you argument is that your preference? Well, other people have different preferences too.

I feel MORE challenging and fun to have a meta game about what builds to use, and how to gear it than just having 20 buttons at my disposal whenever i fight.

I can't believe people don't understand their way is not the only way.

 

Nowhere did I say that my way is the only way. I simply stated what my preference was.

Except you have to belittle others' preferences by saying "I can't believe people play this sht..."

I can't believe people don't understand their way is not the only non-shitty way.

 

  Albatroes

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/29/14
Posts: 503

7/02/14 1:14:02 AM#220
To the op, the idea is good and bad to me. One of the reasons I can't really get into GW2 is because of this. As I level, I like to get new things or adjustments to old abilities. Yes, I like the idea that some skills will carry to cap, but every now and then its good to get something new. To me it just signifies that all the leveling I did was worth doing. One skill system I do like is rifts. Since they do give the option to manually scale down, they also scale down your max skill damage while allowing you to use your high level skills. Which does draw me to the manual scaling (abit off topic, sorry), which I feel is a good idea to implement into more games. If many of these games just paid more attention to each other and stopped trying to compete with wow, it would lead to more success in my opinion. The only thing that can kill WoW, is honestly WoW itself. Releasing games as "wow killers" only makes people more inclined to return to wow at some point.
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