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278 posts found
  Hulluck

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/19/13
Posts: 447

3/27/14 5:13:39 AM#41
Originally posted by Hazelle
Originally posted by Teala

Why is everyone coming down on this...this is EVE, it's a part of it.   What I don't understand is just how someone could be so naive when it is said repeatedly over an over again in local chat in Jita and all the other main trade hubs - don't fall for scams!  Anyone that actually thinks that someone is just going to double your ISK - because they say they will...don't play EVE - you're the reason things like this happen - you're gullible and lack good judgment.   The guy that fell for this scam I do not feel sorry for one bit.   It's like people that believe in God and hand over cash to churches - it's a scam.   If the God of a church is so powerful, what does a church or religion have need of money for - why doesn't your God just provide for it's needs - he is suppose to be all mighty and powerful - or are you not capable of good judgement to understand this - hmmmm?  

Oh and don't try to tell me I'm just as bad as the scammers that did this because I don't feel sorry for this guy...that guy at one point actually knew he had been scammed and yet "he allowed" them to continue on.   All he had to do was stop.   So more than once this person showed bad judgement.   In fact he did it 4 times.   So no, I don't feel bad for this person.   And his language toward the end of the sound clip...that is inexcusable. 

I've been reading around and it looks like most people aren't coming down on the scam but the hour and a half of psychological mindfuck that happened after he was scammed.

I'd like you to consider that it's really easy to have good judgement when you are not emotionally involved with something.  I'll bet that there's not a person reading this that hasn't allowed their emotions to cloud their good judgement.

What they did was wrong and blaming the victim doesn't make their wrong doing any more right.

Good post. sums it up nicely.  I'm definitely not trying to be morale police. It's an interesting subject. How far is to far? One just needs the right things to use. This happened to be a game called Eve and a players assets. People put different values on different things in their lives. Just because one can crush a person mentally doesn't mean one should.  Not my place to say if anything should be done. I do think because of what the victim said in the end he should be punished as well if the scammers are punished.  The whole thing needed to end shortly after phase 1 but it's intent was to completely tear down other humans emotionally / mentally. They could have drug him back in even at the very end after all that  raging.

For me, listening to another human being torn down like that is hard provided they aren't / weren't an evil person (murderer ect.) I've seen it in r/l a few times.  The blog was over the top at parts.

 

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10645

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

3/27/14 5:18:19 AM#42
Originally posted by Volenibblets

Eve replicates the Stanford Prison Experiment in an MMORPG format. They've taken a virtual world with no real consequences and they've provided a blank slate and all the conditions necessary for people to act like sadists, sociopaths or just plain dicks if they choose...and guess what happens?

 

Uh, no.  Eve may be an example of how an environment can drive behavior, but it's nothing like Zimbardo's experiment.  For one, nobody was "arrested" at their own homes, taken to a local police station, strip searched and then put in a cell.

 

There are studies done on Eve Online and the community though.

 

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Volenibblets

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/08/12
Posts: 193

3/27/14 5:31:50 AM#43
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by Volenibblets

Eve replicates the Stanford Prison Experiment in an MMORPG format. They've taken a virtual world with no real consequences and they've provided a blank slate and all the conditions necessary for people to act like sadists, sociopaths or just plain dicks if they choose...and guess what happens?

 

Uh, no.  Eve may be an example of how an environment can drive behavior, but it's nothing like Zimbardo's experiment.  For one, nobody was "arrested" at their own homes, taken to a local police station, strip searched and then put in a cell.

 

There are studies done on Eve Online and the community though.

 

Too literal. I wasn't suggesting it perfectly replicated it in every detail. I meant that it demonstrated that, given the authority, stronger position (plus, in this case, incentive) and opportunity people will act like dicks and sadists even if it's not necessarily an otherwise apparent  feature of their personality. They have a cart blanche to let the darker sides of their natures run amok. Now, of course, there are no 'real' consequences but the problem arises when real world money is involved and sheltered and shaky kids who take it very seriously. Now you could argue that about any game but Eve has the potential to take this concept to a really dark place.  

  hulgar

Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/13
Posts: 94

3/27/14 5:40:45 AM#44
Humans ara antisocial and violent by nature.
-Hobbes
  Sk1ppeR

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/29/12
Posts: 534

3/27/14 6:02:22 AM#45
Originally posted by ButeoRegalis

I'm not entirely sure this is limited to EVE. I don't see anything in here that couldn't happen in any other game, mostly because the worst of the stuff happens OUTSIDE the game.

That aside, I thought EVE's pride and joy comes from its sandbox nature, and IRL despicable acts like theft and treachery are wildly applauded in game? If you create a system without bounds and limits how could you possibly be surprised and abhorred by this behavior?

Have you never been to high school??

In my high school douchebags were either expelled or ganked after school :P 

  taus01

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/12/06
Posts: 1419

3/27/14 6:05:09 AM#46
Originally posted by Kyleran
Just to again point out, this activity is not reflective of the EVE community as a whole, nor is this behavior unique to EVE.

One of the best griefing guilds of all time, the Dark Wolves have been making people miserable and screwing with folks since 1996.

www.darkwolvesgaming.com

Actually it is unique. EvE breeds a special kind of sociopath. One that has an insatiable lust to feed his hubris by publicly humiliating a human being.

EvE breeds these kind of people, it creates more scum on a daily basis. People get scammed and humiliated constantly and the ones that do not rage quit become the new scamers and bottom feeders. Its a cycle of anger and frustration that has created an incredible hostile and antisocial environment. EvE will eventually collapse under this pile of shit.

Posting these humiliating recordings publicly can actually have very real legal consequences. This is not covered by free speech and is crossing into defamation. I would be very careful if i where this Erotica 1 person. This could eventually backfire and become very ugly.

Originally posted by hulgar
Humans ara antisocial and violent by nature.
-Hobbes

Wrong. A social environment that rewards violence, greed, gluttony and hubris creates exactly that.

There have been many studies and there are real live examples right now on this planet, that have proven that alternative societies that reward kindness and empathy do not show any signs of violence or antisocial behaviour.

This is a common excuse use by people that promote violence and antisocial behaviour.

"Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"

  hulgar

Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/13
Posts: 94

3/27/14 6:19:28 AM#47
Taus..what i meant is that, as Hobbes said, without a controling envitoment (and you are talking about enviroments, not nature) human beings are violent and antisocial elements. You need an envitoment to prevent those behaviors. The one provided by EVE is the oposite. As you say and i agree with you, it promotes the oposite, one of the reasons i dont touch ot5 with a 100 ft pole (money laundry is another )
  kaiser3282

Tipster

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 2645

3/27/14 6:19:38 AM#48

You've got to be a particular kind of "special" to submit yourself to such things in the 1st place. You don't have to be very bright to realize that giving over all of your stuff in game to someone is a very bad idea, new or not. If you're actually that gullible, well this is a sure way to teach you not to be.

Seriously, would you just hand over your wallet, keys, phone, clothes, etc to some stranger? Wtf would possess someone to do so in an MMO if they cared about any of their stuff?

  Uhwop

Elite Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1656

3/27/14 6:27:16 AM#49

Because obviously one guy is representative of an entire community. 

But maybe you're right.  I met a lot of not so bright guys while playing EVE, some even willing to just hand over large amounts of ISK to get into a corporation that everyone knows doesn't recruit from in game. 

This guy was willing to hand over literally everything he owned thinking that someone would quadruple his worth. 

It's not really fair to imply that everyone playing EVE is dumb, and greedy enough, to hand over everything they own to a stranger in an obvious scam. 

Nor do I think "breaking his kneecaps" is the way to teach him to be smarter. 

  klash2def

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/11
Posts: 127

(/O_o)/ mods please close thread.

3/27/14 6:40:51 AM#50

how would he not know this is  scam.. dude they are making you read some bullshit... smh both sides annoy me

15 mins in.. he still didnt know. and they are actually going through with it. 

the issue isnt "game mechanics" or players creating 'content" these guys torture this guy for no reason. they had already robbed him i dont see the point of keeping it going for so long. really excessive imo.

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4782

3/27/14 7:17:50 AM#51
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Hazelle
Originally posted by Teala

Why is everyone coming down on this...this is EVE, it's a part of it.   What I don't understand is just how someone could be so naive when it is said repeatedly over an over again in local chat in Jita and all the other main trade hubs - don't fall for scams!  Anyone that actually thinks that someone is just going to double your ISK - because they say they will...don't play EVE - you're the reason things like this happen - you're gullible and lack good judgment.   The guy that fell for this scam I do not feel sorry for one bit.   It's like people that believe in God and hand over cash to churches - it's a scam.   If the God of a church is so powerful, what does a church or religion have need of money for - why doesn't your God just provide for it's needs - he is suppose to be all mighty and powerful - or are you not capable of good judgement to understand this - hmmmm?  

Oh and don't try to tell me I'm just as bad as the scammers that did this because I don't feel sorry for this guy...that guy at one point actually knew he had been scammed and yet "he allowed" them to continue on.   All he had to do was stop.   So more than once this person showed bad judgement.   In fact he did it 4 times.   So no, I don't feel bad for this person.   And his language toward the end of the sound clip...that is inexcusable. 

I've been reading around and it looks like most people aren't coming down on the scam but the hour and a half of psychological mindfuck that happened after he was scammed.

I'd like you to consider that it's really easy to have good judgement when you are not emotionally involved with something.  I'll bet that there's not a person reading this that hasn't allowed their emotions to cloud their good judgement.

What they did was wrong and blaming the victim doesn't make their wrong doing any more right.

And this has about as much a link to EVE as anything else because the torture happened out of game.

Just to be clear, there is a huge difference between torment and torture. This guy was tormented, not tortured.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  klash2def

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/11
Posts: 127

(/O_o)/ mods please close thread.

3/27/14 7:18:29 AM#52
"If something is happening in or related to the game that cannot conceivably with good conscience be played over speakers or depicted graphically at a Fanfest, it goes without saying that it exceeds what is permissable in EVE." -Salvos
  klash2def

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/11
Posts: 127

(/O_o)/ mods please close thread.

3/27/14 7:29:20 AM#53

no excuse for the bullying and public humiliation. Again.. I understand how EVE works.. this is too far. CCP does not want the bad press that could come with this.. Cyber Bullying is actually a big thing that collects press fast.

  Mors.Magne

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/02/07
Posts: 1428

3/27/14 7:29:23 AM#54

One of the reasons for this bad behaviour is that Eve Online is a boring game. Players get bored and some of them turn to bullying in order to get their entertainment.

 

It's a good job that in a few months time Eve Online will get a lot more competition in the form of Elite: Dangerous.

 

I predict that Elite: Dangerous will superceed Eve Online because the most rewarding tasks in Elite: Dangerous will be the most enjoyable ones. In Eve Online, the most rewarding tasks are the most boring ones, such as using spreadsheets.

 

If you don't like Eve Online for whatever reason, I would urge you to cancel your subscription and play a different game.

  Mors.Magne

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/02/07
Posts: 1428

3/27/14 7:39:09 AM#55
Originally posted by Kyleran

I shocked, incensed, appalled, mortified and shamed by the behavior of this scammer and his followers as representatives of the human race. We should all be ashamed.

But I'm not.  The scammer no more represents the EVE community than I do, we're all just members of a fairly open virtual world and just like in real life, I've observed great good as well as great evil.

Make no mistake, EVE is not "just a game", it really is a virtual world where CCP does it's best to keep their hands off of what the player base does.  There are benefits and costs from this policy, and they are not always easy to bear.

As for this incident, reprehensible for sure,but if CCP steps in to stop it, where does their jurisdiction end?  Do they stop at this one isk doubling scam?  Or do they go after all isk doubling scams?  What are the limits and boundries?  How much pain, loss etc does the victim have to suffer to make it worthy of an intervention?

What sort of scams qualify?  I accidently bought a mispriced Badger II that should have cost 675K ISk and I ended up paying 675M Isk?  Should I be compensated?  Should the scammer be punished?  When does the punishment end? 

You take the good with the bad.  What happened to this person is not right, but then much of what happens in life isn't right, you learn to deal with it, protect you and your loved ones from it, and at the end of day, life goes on. (even in RL< as well as EVE)

Sure, go ahead and appeal to CCP to take action, that's everyone's right, but don't be surprised if they decide to stay hands off, and while that might be a reflection on their character, it has nothing to really do with the overall EVE "community" as a whole either.

 

 

Kyleran, I am shocked and appalled that you should even try to make an excuse for this bullying behaviour. 

 

CCP should ban the perpetrators immeadiately - no further explanation is required at all, and CCP should make every effort to contact the victim(s) and just make sure they are ok - and saying "sorry" wouldn't be a bad thing.

  Hulluck

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/19/13
Posts: 447

3/27/14 7:41:21 AM#56
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Hazelle
Originally posted by Teala

Just to be clear, there is a huge difference between torment and torture. This guy was tormented, not tortured.

That's the word I was looking for earlier.

 

 

In general and on the topic. Not related to your post Geezer.   I think what Erotica 1 is doing now is kind of funny.  I don't know if he is mocking everyone, thinking that he is fooling people, or moving assets around in case of a ban. The idea of him sending himself through his own bonus room is just funny. I guess he's trying to secure his assets just in case? If I had to guess but he pulls it off so well that there's a little doubt there and it just made me chuckle when I saw that thread.

  klash2def

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/11
Posts: 127

(/O_o)/ mods please close thread.

3/27/14 8:00:08 AM#57
Again. I feel bad for this kid. (being a black man) his racist remarks were uncalled for.. but again. I feel his pain those dudes were dicks to him for a super long amount of time.. obviously he is a little slow, and they took advantage of him.  idk man.. both sides seem stupid to me after hearing this whole thing. again, erotica1 could have ended it before it got so far. smh. 
  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10645

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

3/27/14 8:18:03 AM#58
Originally posted by Volenibblets
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by Volenibblets

Eve replicates the Stanford Prison Experiment in an MMORPG format. They've taken a virtual world with no real consequences and they've provided a blank slate and all the conditions necessary for people to act like sadists, sociopaths or just plain dicks if they choose...and guess what happens?

 

Uh, no.  Eve may be an example of how an environment can drive behavior, but it's nothing like Zimbardo's experiment.  For one, nobody was "arrested" at their own homes, taken to a local police station, strip searched and then put in a cell.

 

There are studies done on Eve Online and the community though.

 

Too literal. I wasn't suggesting it perfectly replicated it in every detail. I meant that it demonstrated that, given the authority, stronger position (plus, in this case, incentive) and opportunity people will act like dicks and sadists even if it's not necessarily an otherwise apparent  feature of their personality. They have a cart blanche to let the darker sides of their natures run amok. Now, of course, there are no 'real' consequences but the problem arises when real world money is involved and sheltered and shaky kids who take it very seriously. Now you could argue that about any game but Eve has the potential to take this concept to a really dark place.  

 

Eve as an environment is neutral.  It doesn't put some people in power and others in a position of not having any power.  It doesn't "Set The Stage".  If this were the case, then there wouldn't be any game play outside of the behavior we've seen here.  There are tens of thousands of people logged into Eve at any given time, and out of those tens of thousands, a very small percentage are d!cks.  There isn't any reason to think that the percentage of people who are d!cks in Eve is a larger percentage than any other game, on internet forums or even in the real world. 

 

The behavior seen here can be seen on Microsoft's XBox Live where people can talk to each other and one guy tracked down a kid, drove to his house and beat the cr@p out of him.  This behavior can be seen in internet forums, on Twitter, on Facebook* and on Reddit too.  Each of these environments is neutral, some of them actively try to discourage this type of behavior, but people persist in behaving this way. 

 

I certainly think CCP should start to think about some action they could take on their part to limit this kind of behavior, because it is unacceptable, but I don't see any evidence that Eve causes the behavior more so than any other type of online environment. 

 

I could be wrong, but aren't there new player groups or councils of some sort that not only welcome new players to the game, but put effort into training and protecting new players?  Getting players involved in that kind of thing is exactly the kind of thing that encourages more pro-social behavior on the part of people.  It could be that Eve Online is actually better than average in regards to pro-social v. anti-social behavior because of stuff like this.  We can't know this though, because there aren't any studies about this in particular.  If I were actually a social psychologist, I would probably be studying this, because then I could play a lot of video games. :-)

 

* Especially on Facebook.  Holy cats.

 

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  cura

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/24/04
Posts: 867

3/27/14 8:23:27 AM#59
Theese guys have serious mental problems. They're taking revenge for their miserable lives where nobody likes and respects them. I can imagine one can get mad when he cant unload his sexual tension without using his hand.
  Mr.SeriousGuy

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/15/14
Posts: 94

3/27/14 8:29:42 AM#60
Originally posted by Agent_Joseph

and at end blame game for players stupidity & naive

you should to know EVE is different MMORPG

its "spread sheet the game" meets "point and click targeting and moving" . .. whats not to love ... other than everything

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