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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Can we stop claiming 12 million WoW subs can't be wrong?

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127 posts found
  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2798

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

3/24/14 1:51:07 PM#101
More like 2-3 Million NA/EU subs.  Everyone knows the Chinese shouldn't count based on the fact the ypay by the hour in internet café's.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Eir_S

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4703

GW2 socialist.

3/24/14 1:51:35 PM#102
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Eir_S
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by DarLorkar

It is kind of sad really. How often people want to beat this dead horse.

It all comes down to the fact that WOW has, and can ,lose more subs than almost any other "Western" game will ever have , and still be king of the heap.

This should be celebrated, all those new people brought into the market makes it possible to have all the option people do today in games. Lot of bad.. but a few decent games as well came from the popularity  WOW created.

 

So true, I hold Blizzard responsible for leading the charge to destroy the MMORPG genre and lead about it's general decline to the state we have today.

Immensely popular and profitable among the masses, however totally shallow gaming experiences that are a shadow of what I expected this genre to evolve into.

Who says you'd even have MMO's to play if it weren't for WoW?

That's a comment on how good WoW is at spurring other game development, not how good the game is.

I know.  I wasn't commenting on the quality of the game, I was asking where people think we'd be now if it weren't for at least one big, profitable title raising awareness for the genre, whether it was WoW or not?  For all we know, it could be completely dead at this point.  There's always the chance that it would have grown in some other way, but we'll never know for sure.  I don't mind the direction MMO's have headed, personally.

  Eir_S

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4703

GW2 socialist.

3/24/14 1:53:52 PM#103
Originally posted by Bigdaddyx
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by DarLorkar

It is kind of sad really. How often people want to beat this dead horse.

It all comes down to the fact that WOW has, and can ,lose more subs than almost any other "Western" game will ever have , and still be king of the heap.

This should be celebrated, all those new people brought into the market makes it possible to have all the option people do today in games. Lot of bad.. but a few decent games as well came from the popularity  WOW created.

 

So true, I hold Blizzard responsible for leading the charge to destroy the MMORPG genre and lead about it's general decline to the state we have today.

Immensely popular and profitable among the masses, however totally shallow gaming experiences that are a shadow of what I expected this genre to evolve into.

 

Got to love the exaggeration.... 'DESTROY the MMORPG genre'. All right, i bet entire MMO market is in shambles and all people employed in this business cry themselves to sleep every night....scraping whatever they can get their hands on to feed their families. Nothing but ruins and devastation as far as you can see.

What Kyleran meant was "Blizzard destroyed what I wanted MMO's to be".  Kind of a 1-dimensional view of the way things went, but maybe (hopefully) he/she wasn't serious.

  Bigdaddyx

Elite Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 1763

3/24/14 1:55:02 PM#104
Originally posted by azzamasin
More like 2-3 Million NA/EU subs.  Everyone knows the Chinese shouldn't count based on the fact the ypay by the hour in internet café's.

Like Lizard said it has already been explained by Blizz many times. Chinese players infact pay lot more and play lot more hours than an average western player who is paying 15 bucks a month.

If anything western players are irrelevant in bigger picture. I suggest its time to let go and accept the numbers for what they are unless you got data to prove Blizzard wrong.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2031

3/24/14 1:58:02 PM#105
Originally posted by Eir_S
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Eir_S
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by DarLorkar

It is kind of sad really. How often people want to beat this dead horse.

It all comes down to the fact that WOW has, and can ,lose more subs than almost any other "Western" game will ever have , and still be king of the heap.

This should be celebrated, all those new people brought into the market makes it possible to have all the option people do today in games. Lot of bad.. but a few decent games as well came from the popularity  WOW created.

 

So true, I hold Blizzard responsible for leading the charge to destroy the MMORPG genre and lead about it's general decline to the state we have today.

Immensely popular and profitable among the masses, however totally shallow gaming experiences that are a shadow of what I expected this genre to evolve into.

Who says you'd even have MMO's to play if it weren't for WoW?

That's a comment on how good WoW is at spurring other game development, not how good the game is.

I know.  I wasn't commenting on the quality of the game, I was asking where people think we'd be now if it weren't for at least one big, profitable title raising awareness for the genre, whether it was WoW or not?  For all we know, it could be completely dead at this point.  There's always the chance that it would have grown in some other way, but we'll never know for sure.  I don't mind the direction MMO's have headed, personally.

Yeah we definitely can't know for sure. I'm pretty sure I would prefer the MMO market sans WoW because I don't particularly care about the things that have come about because of the expansion of the genre. I still play UO for goodness sake. I care way more about the systems in the game than I do about what the game looks like.

  Vonatar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 593

3/24/14 2:00:50 PM#106

Example 1: You design and build a product. You seek investment. Your market research shows you will hit sales of around 3 million.

 

Example 2: You design and build a product. You seek investment. Your market research shows you will hit sales of around 200,000.

 

Which product is more likely to attract investment?

 

You can argue this way and that way all you like, but in simple commercial terms, the answer is clear.

  Bigdaddyx

Elite Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 1763

3/24/14 2:05:15 PM#107
Originally posted by Vonatar

Example 1: You design and build a product. You seek investment. Your market research shows you will hit sales of around 3 million.

 

Example 2: You design and build a product. You seek investment. Your market research shows you will hit sales of around 200,000.

 

Which product is more likely to attract investment?

 

You can argue this way and that way all you like, but in simple commercial terms, the answer is clear.

I agree. Unless you got your own money to burn.

It is always easy to play gamble when your own money isn't on line. 

  reeereee

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/22/13
Posts: 709

3/24/14 2:05:30 PM#108

WoW having so many subs now is actually more impressive than what it had back in the day.

 

You can now play games with graphics almost 10 years more advanced than WoW's for free and yet WoW is not just staying afloat it's mercilessly crushing it's competition.

  Panther2103

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/09/08
Posts: 2084

3/24/14 2:09:03 PM#109
The wow subs cannot be wrong argument is somewhat right in my opinion. Blizzard keeps the game updated constantly, they add new things to do in every expansion, they have content for everyone. The reason the subs dwindle so much usually pertains to changes they make to specific portions of the game half way through each expansion. Blizzard needs to learn that nerfing content so everyone can do it doesn't make the game better. That's my one gripe. But just wait, WOD will bring tons of players back, probably quite a few for good. It has the least amount of hate towards this expansion out of any expansion I've seen since TBC. I personally can't wait to see how long blizzard can keep so many subs.
  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6827

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

3/24/14 2:12:33 PM#110

I think a bigger issue is why Blizzard or anyone would constantly talk about numbers BEFORE the game.

That is something that has baffled me for a long time and Blizzard is the worst.

If a developer cannot find MASSIVE amounts of good stuff to talk about their own game and have to always point at numbers,that says a lot about the developer and the game.

Geesh i could write a 100 page book on the good stuff i enjoyed in my favorite games and not once would i ever need to point at numbers.

IMO it is a sign of VERY poor marketing like less than high school skills,i mean seriously they could come up with a better gimmick than "Let's play Wow ,we have 12 million subs".

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  Spawnblade

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/02/05
Posts: 197

3/24/14 2:13:26 PM#111

Can a billion Wal-Mart shoppers be wrong?

 

 

Yes, they most certainly can.

  reeereee

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/22/13
Posts: 709

3/24/14 2:15:58 PM#112
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Eir_S
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Eir_S
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by DarLorkar

It is kind of sad really. How often people want to beat this dead horse.

It all comes down to the fact that WOW has, and can ,lose more subs than almost any other "Western" game will ever have , and still be king of the heap.

This should be celebrated, all those new people brought into the market makes it possible to have all the option people do today in games. Lot of bad.. but a few decent games as well came from the popularity  WOW created.

 

So true, I hold Blizzard responsible for leading the charge to destroy the MMORPG genre and lead about it's general decline to the state we have today.

Immensely popular and profitable among the masses, however totally shallow gaming experiences that are a shadow of what I expected this genre to evolve into.

Who says you'd even have MMO's to play if it weren't for WoW?

That's a comment on how good WoW is at spurring other game development, not how good the game is.

I know.  I wasn't commenting on the quality of the game, I was asking where people think we'd be now if it weren't for at least one big, profitable title raising awareness for the genre, whether it was WoW or not?  For all we know, it could be completely dead at this point.  There's always the chance that it would have grown in some other way, but we'll never know for sure.  I don't mind the direction MMO's have headed, personally.

Yeah we definitely can't know for sure. I'm pretty sure I would prefer the MMO market sans WoW because I don't particularly care about the things that have come about because of the expansion of the genre. I still play UO for goodness sake. I care way more about the systems in the game than I do about what the game looks like.

Given that sans WoW the Eastern mmo market would be just as strong but the Western one would be much smaller I'm going to guess that far less would be spent on developing Western mmos leaving the NA market to be dominated by bigger budget Eastern tittles like L2 and FFXI.

  Bigdaddyx

Elite Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 1763

3/24/14 2:20:34 PM#113
Originally posted by Wizardry

I think a bigger issue is why Blizzard or anyone would constantly talk about numbers BEFORE the game.

That is something that has baffled me for a long time and Blizzard is the worst.

If a developer cannot find MASSIVE amounts of good stuff to talk about their own game and have to always point at numbers,that says a lot about the developer and the game.

Geesh i could write a 100 page book on the good stuff i enjoyed in my favorite games and not once would i ever need to point at numbers.

IMO it is a sign of VERY poor marketing like less than high school skills,i mean seriously they could come up with a better gimmick than "Let's play Wow ,we have 12 million subs".

 

Game is 8 years old and at this point almost everyone knows what the game offers. There comes a point in life of MMO when there is nothing left to say about how good the game is. It speaks for itself.

And why not flaunt the numbers? you think if there was another MMO company holding 8 million players right now they won't brag about it?

You are not running a multi billion company though so who cares what you write in 100 pages?

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17372

3/24/14 2:27:38 PM#114

Then how many people does it take to be right?

I would say, in this case "1" but your mileage may vary.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2031

3/24/14 2:32:11 PM#115
Originally posted by reeereee
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Eir_S
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Eir_S
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by DarLorkar

It is kind of sad really. How often people want to beat this dead horse.

It all comes down to the fact that WOW has, and can ,lose more subs than almost any other "Western" game will ever have , and still be king of the heap.

This should be celebrated, all those new people brought into the market makes it possible to have all the option people do today in games. Lot of bad.. but a few decent games as well came from the popularity  WOW created.

 

So true, I hold Blizzard responsible for leading the charge to destroy the MMORPG genre and lead about it's general decline to the state we have today.

Immensely popular and profitable among the masses, however totally shallow gaming experiences that are a shadow of what I expected this genre to evolve into.

Who says you'd even have MMO's to play if it weren't for WoW?

That's a comment on how good WoW is at spurring other game development, not how good the game is.

I know.  I wasn't commenting on the quality of the game, I was asking where people think we'd be now if it weren't for at least one big, profitable title raising awareness for the genre, whether it was WoW or not?  For all we know, it could be completely dead at this point.  There's always the chance that it would have grown in some other way, but we'll never know for sure.  I don't mind the direction MMO's have headed, personally.

Yeah we definitely can't know for sure. I'm pretty sure I would prefer the MMO market sans WoW because I don't particularly care about the things that have come about because of the expansion of the genre. I still play UO for goodness sake. I care way more about the systems in the game than I do about what the game looks like.

Given that sans WoW the Eastern mmo market would be just as strong but the Western one would be much smaller I'm going to guess that far less would be spent on developing Western mmos leaving the NA market to be dominated by bigger budget Eastern tittles like L2 and FFXI.

Why wouldn't the NA mmo market just stay niche, like it was pre-wow? And how do we know the asian mmo market would be what it is without WoW?

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20123

3/24/14 2:40:15 PM#116
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Quality of a game is arguably a different argument than whether a game is good or not. The latter is completely subjective. The former may or may not be.

Both are subjective.

  askdaboss

Novice Member

Joined: 9/13/11
Posts: 429

3/24/14 2:44:47 PM#117

Well, since nobody has apparently brought any valid argument as to why X millions WoW sub can be wrong in this debate so far, we will have to assume that these X millions WoW players are right to enjoy playing their game and paying their monthly fee to Blizzard.

  Bigdaddyx

Elite Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 1763

3/24/14 2:46:56 PM#118
Originally posted by askdaboss

Well, since nobody has apparently brought any valid argument as to why X millions WoW sub can be wrong in this debate so far, we will have to assume that these X millions WoW players are right to enjoy playing their game and paying their monthly fee to Blizzard.

Actually as announced by Blizz the current sub number is around 7.8

OP just decided to run away with post of one guy who claimed it was 12 million and thus this topic.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2031

3/24/14 3:04:36 PM#119
Originally posted by askdaboss

Well, since nobody has apparently brought any valid argument as to why X millions WoW sub can be wrong in this debate so far, we will have to assume that these X millions WoW players are right to enjoy playing their game and paying their monthly fee to Blizzard.

I don't think that's the question. I'm not even sure that IS a question. It's not whether or not somebody is "right to enjoy a game." It seems to me that the question is "does a large playerbase mean that the game is good?" And if that is the question, the burden of proof is on the people who would vote in the affirmative.

  NIII

Novice Member

Joined: 10/04/10
Posts: 114

3/24/14 3:19:26 PM#120

How does it take this many pages of replies to come to the conclusion that the MMO genre has many subgenres and niches, and the majority will decide where most of the money goes, and therefore what most of the games become.

Yes, it sucks to be in the minority (not being a fan of what is the most popular), because the games you want are not being developed as frequently, as professionally, or becoming as popular with everyone.

You will have anywhere from two, to like, ten small to medium sized games (as compared to the size of the leader in the industry) that really stand out, and feel like home to you over the years, as the industry focus shifts around what is the most popular.

 

This definitely sucks for those looking for something new to fill that void.

However, be careful what you're hoping for, because;

1. When trying to get a large population to take interest in something that is different, you will have to gradually make the change. Give them something they're used to, and something they're not used to, little by little. This is why no one seems to take a chance when it comes to MMOs, and (in my opinion) why the people that try to do something different tend to 'flop'. This means you will be waiting a LONG time for the industry to finally rotate around to your subgenre/niche, unless of course you like where the industry is heading currently, but if that were the case, you wouldn't really be complaining now would you?

2. When the industry DOES turn to your favorite subgenre/niche, it will almost certainly not be the same as what you liked. As new people take interest in the features/designs that you like, they also bring with them the suggestions that they have, and the developers will hopefully listen to their customers. 

 

To me, this entire situation is about waiting for your perfect game, and being upset that what's popular now is prolonging it's arrival.

While I'm not going to say that your perfect game will never come, I will say that you should be happy that there was once a game that you really enjoyed, that the market is filled with tons of games, at least some that are fun for even just a little while, and leave your comfort zone every once in a while, you may just find something new that you enjoy.

 

;)

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