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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Can we stop claiming 12 million WoW subs can't be wrong?

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127 posts found
  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2049

3/24/14 12:06:01 PM#41
Originally posted by free2play

Games are media and media success is decided by viewers or in the case of games, the amount of people who play them.

 

So to answer your request?

no.

Except "success" isn't the only thing you can discuss.

  Arndush

Novice Member

Joined: 10/27/09
Posts: 309

3/24/14 12:13:08 PM#42
Originally posted by ozmono

Can we please stop claiming their are 12 million WoW subs that cannot be wrong? We all know they haven't had 12 million subs for quite sometime. They've been on a downward trend for awhile with the occasional spike that doesn't seem to last long. In the last four years they've lost over four million subs. That's just concurrent sub numbers. That doesn't include all the people who have abandoned the game for greener pastures. That's just what their concurrent peak sub numbers have dropped by.

 

If 7.8 million people cannot be wrong just because of their sheer quantity than how can you explain the total numbers of players who have ever played WoW that have moved on being wrong? afterall there would be more of them than what is left of WoWs concurrent sub number and probably even a lot more than their peak.

 

I won't even go into how WoW triumphs up it's sub numbers in Asia as I don't think I need to. All that should need to be said, is it's not 12 million anymore and even if it was, even more people would have tried the game at some point and left. So please lets stop claiming this nonsense.

What's right and what's wrong in an MMO is a very personal thing. So, for those 7.8 million people still enjoying WoW, it can't be wrong. For the rest of us that gave up on WoW a long time ago, or never really cared for it in the first place, it's very wrong. But, in the end, does it really matter?

  Laughing-man

Novice Member

Joined: 4/23/09
Posts: 3394

I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those Deaf-mutes.

3/24/14 12:15:27 PM#43
Originally posted by ozmono
Originally posted by Aroukos
So whats this about?

I was just reading the forums and I ran into someone saying it. I wouldn't bother writing this if it wasn't said frequently.

I rarely if ever see anyone say this seriously.

If we're going to have this thread, can we include in it no more saying WoW sucks merely because it's popular?

I'm tired of people hating on popular things just because they are popular, I wrote an essay on this when I was 15, and now I'm nearly 30.  When I wrote it they didn't have a word for it.  We do now.

Hipsters    /sigh.

  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

3/24/14 12:20:21 PM#44
Originally posted by Voiidiin
Originally posted by CazNeerg
There is also the fact that WoW never, at any point in time, had 12 million subs.  If you are paying by the hour, that's not a "subscription," even if Blizzard tries to call it one, so the Asian players don't count as subs and we actually don't have accurate numbers of just the western players.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2011/05/09/world-of-warcraft-dips-to-a-mere-11-4-million-subscribers/#continued

Second paragraph :

During the call, CEO of Blizzard Entertainment Mike Morhaime pointed out that World of Warcraft had fallen again to pre-Cataclysm subscriber levels -- 11.4 million subscribers at the end of March, down from its peak of 12 million. Subscriber levels do not decline linearly, he pointed out, stating that they fluctuate based on how quickly players consume and complete content. Players are consuming Cataclysm's content faster than any expansion before it, so subscriber levels started to drop off more quickly than they have previously.

While you might not include Asian players as players, i consider them people just like i think of you as one, so i am pretty sure they are paying customers like the rest of us, regardless of the payment model.

I still don't care about WoW.

Lol.  Dramatic much?  Didn't say they aren't players, or people, or customers.  Just that they aren't subscribers, a word with specific connotations which they don't meet.  Paying 13-15 dollars for unlimited access over the course of a month is a subscription.  Paying 4 cents per hour is not a subscription.  (And no, it's not the specific amounts that are relevant, it's the unlimited hours over a defined period vs. paying per hour.)

WoW has never had 12 million subscribers.  There has probably never been a point in time when the entire MMO market had 12 million simultaneous subscriptions.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  Laughing-man

Novice Member

Joined: 4/23/09
Posts: 3394

I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those Deaf-mutes.

3/24/14 12:25:12 PM#45
Originally posted by CazNeerg

Lol.  Dramatic much?  Didn't say they aren't players, or people, or customers.  Just that they aren't subscribers, a word with specific connotations which they don't meet.  Paying 13-15 dollars for unlimited access over the course of a month is a subscription.  Paying 4 cents per hour is not a subscription.  (And no, it's not the specific amounts that are relevant, it's the unlimited hours over a defined period vs. paying per hour.)

WoW has never had 12 million subscribers.  There has probably never been a point in time when the entire MMO market had 12 million simultaneous subscriptions.

I think you are being a bit cynical.

12 Million in the entire MMO market?  MUCH MUCH More than that.

http://www.alistdaily.com/news/exclusive-newzoo-on-the-state-of-mmos  Hey look, information sourced.

 

Guess what?

12 cents an hour IS by definition a 'subscription'. 

Subscription :  "the action of making or agreeing to make an advance payment in order to receive or participate in something."

You gotta pay those 12 cents before you play right? 

Yep.

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2049

3/24/14 12:26:29 PM#46
Originally posted by Arndush
Originally posted by ozmono

Can we please stop claiming their are 12 million WoW subs that cannot be wrong? We all know they haven't had 12 million subs for quite sometime. They've been on a downward trend for awhile with the occasional spike that doesn't seem to last long. In the last four years they've lost over four million subs. That's just concurrent sub numbers. That doesn't include all the people who have abandoned the game for greener pastures. That's just what their concurrent peak sub numbers have dropped by.

 

If 7.8 million people cannot be wrong just because of their sheer quantity than how can you explain the total numbers of players who have ever played WoW that have moved on being wrong? afterall there would be more of them than what is left of WoWs concurrent sub number and probably even a lot more than their peak.

 

I won't even go into how WoW triumphs up it's sub numbers in Asia as I don't think I need to. All that should need to be said, is it's not 12 million anymore and even if it was, even more people would have tried the game at some point and left. So please lets stop claiming this nonsense.

What's right and what's wrong in an MMO is a very personal thing. So, for those 7.8 million people still enjoying WoW, it can't be wrong. For the rest of us that gave up on WoW a long time ago, or never really cared for it in the first place, it's very wrong. But, in the end, does it really matter?

The point of the post was to discredit the idea that WoW must be a good game because so many people play it. So what those 12 million players would be "wrong" about is whether or not WoW is a good game, not whether or not they personally enjoy the game.

 

Not only that, those people can absolutely be wrong in the sense that they can be misinformed. There very well may be other games that they would enjoy more, they just don't know it.

  lizardbones

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

3/24/14 12:32:14 PM#47
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by Voiidiin
Originally posted by CazNeerg
There is also the fact that WoW never, at any point in time, had 12 million subs.  If you are paying by the hour, that's not a "subscription," even if Blizzard tries to call it one, so the Asian players don't count as subs and we actually don't have accurate numbers of just the western players.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2011/05/09/world-of-warcraft-dips-to-a-mere-11-4-million-subscribers/#continued

Second paragraph :

During the call, CEO of Blizzard Entertainment Mike Morhaime pointed out that World of Warcraft had fallen again to pre-Cataclysm subscriber levels -- 11.4 million subscribers at the end of March, down from its peak of 12 million. Subscriber levels do not decline linearly, he pointed out, stating that they fluctuate based on how quickly players consume and complete content. Players are consuming Cataclysm's content faster than any expansion before it, so subscriber levels started to drop off more quickly than they have previously.

While you might not include Asian players as players, i consider them people just like i think of you as one, so i am pretty sure they are paying customers like the rest of us, regardless of the payment model.

I still don't care about WoW.

Lol.  Dramatic much?  Didn't say they aren't players, or people, or customers.  Just that they aren't subscribers, a word with specific connotations which they don't meet.  Paying 13-15 dollars for unlimited access over the course of a month is a subscription.  Paying 4 cents per hour is not a subscription.  (And no, it's not the specific amounts that are relevant, it's the unlimited hours over a defined period vs. paying per hour.)

WoW has never had 12 million subscribers.  There has probably never been a point in time when the entire MMO market had 12 million simultaneous subscriptions.

 

WoW had over twelve million people playing in 2010.  Every one of those people was paying per some amount of time that they were playing and they had to have a registered account to do so.  The people playing WoW in Asia are subscribers, just as much as people playing in the West.  Since WoW was not the only MMORPG running in 2010, it seems likely that there were more than twelve million MMORPG players in existence at that time.

 

**

 

If you can believe all the people willing to jump in and make estimates of what Chinese players pay, they aren't paying very much compared to Western players.

 

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

3/24/14 12:40:03 PM#48
Originally posted by Laughing-man

I think you are being a bit cynical.

12 Million in the entire MMO market?  MUCH MUCH More than that.

http://www.alistdaily.com/news/exclusive-newzoo-on-the-state-of-mmos  Hey look, information sourced.

Again, I didn't say players, I didn't say payers.  I said subscribers.  As in people paying (depending on the game) somewhere between 10-15 dollars a month to play for as many hours as they want.  The traditional, dare I say "real" subscription model.  It's not a huge market, which is why P2P as a category of games is on the decline, there just aren't a lot of customers there to compete for.

The point being that WoW's released numbers are both deceptive and useless for the purpose of comparing it to other games.  Is it still the most successful MMO ever released, by far?  Of course.  Which makes it all that much stranger that they feel the need to pretend they have more success than they do.  (Because anybody who is being honest will admit that someone paying a traditional western sub is *not* the same thing as someone paying cents by the hour, and counting them as equivalent is ridiculous.)

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20515

3/24/14 12:43:47 PM#49

There is no such thing as "right" or "wrong" in gaming preferences.

Any such claim is meaningless, anyway.

 

  Havekk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/14/08
Posts: 1391

3/24/14 12:45:34 PM#50
The bigger question is... Why do you care? Why does it bother you so badly that you came here to post about it? If someone told me I should eat a McDonald's hamburger because they have sold over a billion or whatever, and they can't be wrong... I would simply say, "no thanks... They're just not for me" ... and move on with my life. I mean we all get that a bunch of people liking something doesn't make it right for you. I think that goes without saying... Or does it? I guess not.
  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4914

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

3/24/14 12:45:43 PM#51
Paying pretty hour is still a subscription. It's just a subscription for an hour.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4914

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

3/24/14 12:46:17 PM#52
Err Pretty = per

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Darknessguy64

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/30/13
Posts: 237

3/24/14 12:50:38 PM#53
This thread is as relevant as the "Do you play a female character" thread...
  lizardbones

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

3/24/14 12:51:14 PM#54
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by Laughing-man

I think you are being a bit cynical.

12 Million in the entire MMO market?  MUCH MUCH More than that.

http://www.alistdaily.com/news/exclusive-newzoo-on-the-state-of-mmos  Hey look, information sourced.

Again, I didn't say players, I didn't say payers.  I said subscribers.  As in people paying (depending on the game) somewhere between 10-15 dollars a month to play for as many hours as they want.  The traditional, dare I say "real" subscription model.  It's not a huge market, which is why P2P as a category of games is on the decline, there just aren't a lot of customers there to compete for.

The point being that WoW's released numbers are both deceptive and useless for the purpose of comparing it to other games.  Is it still the most successful MMO ever released, by far?  Of course.  Which makes it all that much stranger that they feel the need to pretend they have more success than they do.  (Because anybody who is being honest will admit that someone paying a traditional western sub is *not* the same thing as someone paying cents by the hour, and counting them as equivalent is ridiculous.)

 

The average annual income in China is one eighth the income in the U.S. and the middle class is nearly nonexistent.  For most families, annual income is less than $3,000 a year.  Yes, they are paying cents on the dollar, but how much are they paying as a percentage of their income?  The average American pays less than 0.21% of their annual income, while the average Chinese player pays 0.36% of their annual income.  So yes, Chinese players pay a lot less to play WoW.  They also earn a lot less.

 

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4914

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

3/24/14 12:54:06 PM#55
Write is also not the only game in China making thecomparison even more valid. Eve is in China after all and many many many others.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4914

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

3/24/14 12:54:41 PM#56
Bah write=wow

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

3/24/14 1:21:52 PM#57
Originally posted by lizardbones

The average annual income in China is one eighth the income in the U.S. and the middle class is nearly nonexistent.  For most families, annual income is less than $3,000 a year.  Yes, they are paying cents on the dollar, but how much are they paying as a percentage of their income?  The average American pays less than 0.21% of their annual income, while the average Chinese player pays 0.36% of their annual income.  So yes, Chinese players pay a lot less to play WoW.  They also earn a lot less. 

That's all true.  But I'm not talking about whether the level of financial commitment from the player is the same, I'm talking about whether the numbers actually received by the company are equivalent, which they clearly aren't.  Treating a pay-per-hour "subscriber" as equivalent to a pay-per-month subscriber for the purpose of reporting subscriber numbers renders those numbers useless.  By mashing the numbers from two fundamentally different revenue models together and reporting the total as if they were equivalent, you pollute the data set, and might as well not report the numbers at all.

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Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
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  alakram

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/02/06
Posts: 2240

3/24/14 1:24:58 PM#58
Originally posted by ozmono

Can we please stop claiming their are 12 million WoW subs that cannot be wrong? We all know they haven't had 12 million subs for quite sometime. They've been on a downward trend for awhile with the occasional spike that doesn't seem to last long. In the last four years they've lost over four million subs. That's just concurrent sub numbers. That doesn't include all the people who have abandoned the game for greener pastures. That's just what their concurrent peak sub numbers have dropped by.

 

If 7.8 million people cannot be wrong just because of their sheer quantity than how can you explain the total numbers of players who have ever played WoW that have moved on being wrong? afterall there would be more of them than what is left of WoWs concurrent sub number and probably even a lot more than their peak.

 

I won't even go into how WoW triumphs up it's sub numbers in Asia as I don't think I need to. All that should need to be said, is it's not 12 million anymore and even if it was, even more people would have tried the game at some point and left. So please lets stop claiming this nonsense.

10 billion flies can't be wrong, eat crap. :D

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  Nadia

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3/24/14 1:29:14 PM#59
  DamonVile

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Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4909

3/24/14 1:29:42 PM#60
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by Laughing-man

I think you are being a bit cynical.

12 Million in the entire MMO market?  MUCH MUCH More than that.

http://www.alistdaily.com/news/exclusive-newzoo-on-the-state-of-mmos  Hey look, information sourced.

Again, I didn't say players, I didn't say payers.  I said subscribers.  As in people paying (depending on the game) somewhere between 10-15 dollars a month to play for as many hours as they want.  The traditional, dare I say "real" subscription model.  It's not a huge market, which is why P2P as a category of games is on the decline, there just aren't a lot of customers there to compete for.

The point being that WoW's released numbers are both deceptive and useless for the purpose of comparing it to other games.  Is it still the most successful MMO ever released, by far?  Of course.  Which makes it all that much stranger that they feel the need to pretend they have more success than they do.  (Because anybody who is being honest will admit that someone paying a traditional western sub is *not* the same thing as someone paying cents by the hour, and counting them as equivalent is ridiculous.)

You're still discounting millions of players just because you don't like how they pay for the game. They're still real people, who play as often and as much as we do and they all pay.

You have a solid argument for wow doesn't make 12 million x $15. But remember this isn't a one month high number. The whole someone could play 5 minutes and count as a sub wouldn't explain why the multi million number of players is year after year.

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