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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] Elder Scrolls Online: Zenimax - A Good Guy Developer

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109 posts found
  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

3/05/14 3:14:59 PM#41

Originally posted by Alders

I'd hold off till, you know, the game is released at least.

Bioware was one of the "good guys" as well.

I would argue that the ending of Mass Effect 3 did more to hurt their reputation than anything about TOR.

Originally posted by Sovrath

And a lot of people hated Oblivion and felt it was the worst of the games, especially with the level scaling.

He's kind of right, it's not a great argument.

McDonald's might not make the "best" food in the world if you are comparing to 5 star restaurants but maybe they make the best fast food in the world? Or maybe they are a great convenient fast food restaurant and one of the best at providing that service.

If they were horrible no one would eat there no matter how much marketing. But that's subjective.

Additionally, if 1 million people love McDonald's and think it's the greatest and 6 people think it's the worse crap on the face of the planet then it's hard to really argue that "they are the worst crap on the face of the planet" except for those 6 people.  But again it depends upon the criteria and is very subjective.

Many people LOVE the Twilight books/films so they have to be great on some level. They have to speak to people on some level.

here is a decent video by one person who, though he also felt there were weak parts of skyrim, felt there were actually some very strong points in the game. Stronger than previous games. And I can't say I disagree with his assessment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEI4yS7sFEw

How good something is depends on where you are looking from, and what you are looking for.  Whether or not Skyrim is a quality game is not the same question as whether or not it is a quality RPG.  Whether or not Twilight is entertaining is not the same question as whether or not it is well written.  Whether McDonald's food tastes good is not the same question as whether it has high grade ingredients or trained chefs in the kitchen.

If one were to judge games on nothing but their graphics and their combat, Skyrim would probably be the best game released in the series.  It is a very good medieval FPS, and I would spend time playing it over most other FPS games.  But judging it as an RPG, it is shallow and generic, and unworthy of being talked about in the same conversation as Daggerfall or Morrowind.  The essence of the RPG is choice, both mechanically and narratively, and Skyrim offers few of either kind of choice.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  EndoRoboto

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/13
Posts: 298

3/05/14 3:23:41 PM#42
CazNeerg, totally agree and well said.
  Poisinivy

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/27/12
Posts: 2

3/05/14 3:24:06 PM#43
now if they would only give us the bag/bank space PER character that we have been askin for then the game might be considerable oh yeah and dont forget right now your account LOGIN is used as your username in game so everyone in the game can get your login information what they should have done is had us create a seperate @Username at launch that kept our Login safe
 
  JJ82

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/02/13
Posts: 1064

3/05/14 3:26:44 PM#44
Originally posted by Sovrath

And a lot of people hated Oblivion and felt it was the worst of the games, especially with the level scaling.

He's kind of right, it's not a great argument.

McDonald's might not make the "best" food in the world if you are comparing to 5 star restaurants but maybe they make the best fast food in the world? Or maybe they are a great convenient fast food restaurant and one of the best at providing that service.

If they were horrible no one would eat there no matter how much marketing. But that's subjective.

Additionally, if 1 million people love McDonald's and think it's the greatest and 6 people think it's the worse crap on the face of the planet then it's hard to really argue that "they are the worst crap on the face of the planet" except for those 6 people.  But again it depends upon the criteria and is very subjective.

Many people LOVE the Twilight books/films so they have to be great on some level. They have to speak to people on some level.

Great post.

I think the thing that is constantly lost in the arguments about this topic is that this game is based on an existing IP and will always, and should always be held in that context. It is going to have deeper emotions by the existing fans and those fans don't want all the same things, don't have the same expectations and don't have the same memories of the series.

None of their opinions should be dismissed. They are all worthy. The problem that keeps popping up are from those continually telling others they shouldn't say bad things, or that what they are saying is meaningless. It isn't. They have their reasons and they are as good as those that say positive things.

Because face it, if the game had a different name, like DaoC 2, few would care enough to post anything about it. Its the name that's bringing in the people and the opinions.

So back in context of your post, there is yet another greater issue here. The game is a TES MMO. If the MMO is not being made for TES players, then why was the name used? Well that one should be obvious, because few would care about the game if it didn't, they needed a famous IP.

If it IS being made for the TES players, is it being made for the players of the older games? If so, that would firstly be incredibly stupid of them to target the smaller amount of fans but also doubly stupid because the MMO would then be NOTHING like the games for using Skyrim graphics and trying to come close to its style. If it isn't for older TES fans, but newer ones which really, lets face it......that's their target because there are far far far far far far more of them, still miss their mark, because the game lacks the key features they expect and push far too many MMO aspects that are anti-SRPG features and will end up pushing them away.

The entire process is a catch 22 for an old school developer like Firor. Someone more along the lines of Raph Koster should have made this game, it needed someone looking forward, not behind in order to blur the lines between the genres to be able to catch and hold the different types of fans.

"People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7768

Logic be damned!

3/05/14 3:30:00 PM#45

Argument is logically fallible because it is based on subjective opinion.

Too hard to deconstruct the multitude of variable to even make logical arguments.

For example, you could say "all else being equal, the product the sells the most must be the best because it is selling the most and all else is equal."

But that is a fallacy as well. All else is rarely, if ever equal.

On McDonalds, the quality and skill of preparation is obviously inferior, but the price is highly competitive, as is the convenience, the marketing is pervasive, the brand recognition apparent, and the global availability certainly a huge factor.

Much too complex to say that McDonalds is popular because it is cheap not because it is any good.

That is already a false logical argument, as "good" is subjective.

Saying that something being entertaining is not necessarily well written is also asinine, as is that saying something that is a good game is not necessarily a good RPG, etc.

Popularity cannot be a measure of quality, nor can obscurity. 

Quality in this case is highly subjective as well.

I could go on forever...

Point is - subjective article and discussion is subjective, and anyone saying otherwise is engaging in illogical assumption.

Now Playing: Destiny, WoW

  alkarionlog

Elite Member

Joined: 3/19/09
Posts: 1071

3/05/14 3:31:48 PM#46
Originally posted by CazNeerg

Originally posted by Alders

I'd hold off till, you know, the game is released at least.

Bioware was one of the "good guys" as well.

I would argue that the ending of Mass Effect 3 did more to hurt their reputation than anything about TOR.

Originally posted by Sovrath

And a lot of people hated Oblivion and felt it was the worst of the games, especially with the level scaling.

He's kind of right, it's not a great argument.

McDonald's might not make the "best" food in the world if you are comparing to 5 star restaurants but maybe they make the best fast food in the world? Or maybe they are a great convenient fast food restaurant and one of the best at providing that service.

If they were horrible no one would eat there no matter how much marketing. But that's subjective.

Additionally, if 1 million people love McDonald's and think it's the greatest and 6 people think it's the worse crap on the face of the planet then it's hard to really argue that "they are the worst crap on the face of the planet" except for those 6 people.  But again it depends upon the criteria and is very subjective.

Many people LOVE the Twilight books/films so they have to be great on some level. They have to speak to people on some level.

here is a decent video by one person who, though he also felt there were weak parts of skyrim, felt there were actually some very strong points in the game. Stronger than previous games. And I can't say I disagree with his assessment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEI4yS7sFEw

How good something is depends on where you are looking from, and what you are looking for.  Whether or not Skyrim is a quality game is not the same question as whether or not it is a quality RPG.  Whether or not Twilight is entertaining is not the same question as whether or not it is well written.  Whether McDonald's food tastes good is not the same question as whether it has high grade ingredients or trained chefs in the kitchen.

If one were to judge games on nothing but their graphics and their combat, Skyrim would probably be the best game released in the series.  It is a very good medieval FPS, and I would spend time playing it over most other FPS games.  But judging it as an RPG, it is shallow and generic, and unworthy of being talked about in the same conversation as Daggerfall or Morrowind.  The essence of the RPG is choice, both mechanically and narratively, and Skyrim offers few of either kind of choice.

skyrim and like all bethesda games only become good after mods fix they game, better graphics? mods did, fixed bugs? mods did, bethesda per see is a crappy dev, all his games are full of bugs, only theing they did right is let modder fix they games, so in the end they gather all money and let the players do all work to make they game close to any kind of sucess, and the more they make the games, more they let in the hand of modders to fix they crappy job.

 

now for ESO, I can sure bet why they had to pay for collums like this, hey if what we played on this last 2 betas was not they last version, then come to my mind only one question why you want to stress test a server with a limited build? the fist time was a annoying fiasco with his login queue, and don't matter what you guys say they know pretty well how many players they would have on they server and even so problems like that happen, the second time same thing pvp lagued like hell, normal pve bugs around, old bugs at that too, me was a dev I would be shamed to put a game to test like that without anything planed and sure not willing to give the best they can, because hey this last 2 betas was for 2 things, stress test server and make hype, from this i'm certain sure one of then failed, and i'm not even saying about teh sahdy bussiness of pre order "goodies".

 

but pretty sure next comment will be of people cursing, saying i'm crazy for not liking they holy grail (AGAIN)

FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.

  zeuseason

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/29/06
Posts: 65

3/05/14 3:34:57 PM#47
Good write up with important points.  Despite being thrust into the open world faster, I'll be happily going back to do all the early level content.
  Lawlmonster

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/07/09
Posts: 952

Take my advice, I'm not using it anyway.

3/05/14 3:39:18 PM#48
I might be a bit out of sorts around here, or in most places that materialistic worship of companies or brand names is lauded as normal behavior, but it's always best to be indifferent when it comes to any organization that's sole purpose rests within finding ways to make money.

"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)

  MysteryB

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/08
Posts: 260

Love Gives You Courage
Being Loved Gives You Strength

3/05/14 3:39:21 PM#49
I liked the starting areas but I agree the game improves 10 fold after lvl 10

Mystery Bounty

  Natai

Novice Member

Joined: 6/27/12
Posts: 7

3/05/14 3:54:19 PM#50

We've seen two patches pushed to PTS in as many weeks, both with changes in response to the community.  Bag size has been increased and collision detection has been added to PvE - a rather surprising addition this close to launch.

I've been pleasantly surprised by their willingness to make changes based on community feedback - especially with less than a month til launch.

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 5078

3/05/14 3:56:47 PM#51

" So I ask you, is Zenimax one of the best companies that has developed an MMO? I think so...." 

Aren't you getting ahead of yourself here? What MMO have they developed? Last I checked TESO hadn't released yet. How about we let the game release and let everyone have some real time in the game outside Beta Events? Then we can determine the kind of developer Zenimax is before we call them the "Good Guys".

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  Lorimar

Novice Member

Joined: 3/12/13
Posts: 9

3/05/14 4:02:06 PM#52

wow... just wow...

 

for the last 20 minutes I've been rewriting my comment and been trying to make it sound not so... harsh... but I give up

 

are you for real? you're basically saying that a company with people on their payroll that were around when the first mmo's were made aren't able to produce a half decent intro into a game and now giving us the choice to skip that super-boring content - so we should praise them for that? w.t.f.

 

and to top it even off you're saying that all the years they were designing an elder scrolls mmo and didn't notice that something was missing that makes an elder scrolls game and needed fans to tell them... that like... um... you know... an elder scrolls game without first person combat wouldn't be like... um... an elder scrolls game. and these poor souls were even forced to make detailed skins for weapons and armor now! so, of course we should praise them for listening to the community because they need us to tell them how they need to do their job.

 

Funny that you don't mention how that 'Good Guy Developer' is forcing you with their artificially restricted fraction set up to make you pay BEFORE the game's even launched to play with your friends. And let's not forget that CE that let's you save 17k to 42k gold in game if you pay 20 bucks more. Yeah... Good Guy Developer for sure.

  DeanGrey

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/29/13
Posts: 148

3/05/14 4:03:29 PM#53

It is a company making a  game. I don't think it is good or bad. Who knows, the change to the starting location may even hurt the game in the long run beyond the good it did for marketing. I do appreciate the hands being added and disagree about its necessity as a feature but I don't think it changes the fact that companies as a whole can't be good or bad, they are amoral.

Business is good. They want our money and we want them to make a good game so that we are willing to give it to them.

  gonewild

Novice Member

Joined: 9/06/12
Posts: 123

3/05/14 4:09:58 PM#54

First ill play the game.

If i manage to reach end content and keep playing then the game will be worth it.

But so far they are good at listening to community and adding those last paint stamps.

Im holding my breath till 4 months after release.

Then we can judge company and the game.

  ButeoRegalis

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/02/10
Posts: 438

3/05/14 4:19:12 PM#55
Usually MMO players are clamoring for MORE content, not content to be cut. I guess ESO really is going against the grain.
  lolpotatos

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/05/14
Posts: 2

3/05/14 4:33:48 PM#56
.
  someforumguy

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 3511

3/05/14 4:45:44 PM#57

So Zenimax PR got a column at MMORPG.com? :p

What is with all those people who keep forgetting that this is a business?

Of course a company might listen to its customers if they think it will lead to selling more copies. So they are not acting stupid after all the starting area critisism. This doesn't immediately mean that they are one of the best MMO developers. Talk about setting the bar low :/

  delta9

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/03/05
Posts: 289

3/05/14 4:49:10 PM#58
Originally posted by SBFord


is Zenimax one of the best companies that has developed an MMO?

 

No, they designed intro content and it was bad (and surely they should know that the first 10/20 hours is what make of break a MMO for a lot of people) so now they just give us the option to just skip the content the media and players had such a problem with

One of the best - would mean they designed the starter experience and it was (generally) loved - or they took note of criticism and improved - not just made it skippable

 

I am not sure why i answered this question

To me some articles on the site these days, such as this one, seem to just be blindly throwing overly positive statements about a company or game in what I can only assume to be some kind of paid advertising - either that or the people writing these kind of things have lost touch with reality.

  neilcc55

Novice Member

Joined: 3/15/12
Posts: 4

3/05/14 4:51:09 PM#59
This game is a massive pile of crap, shame on them for taking a backward step in gaming
  addypop

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/26/14
Posts: 2

3/05/14 4:52:55 PM#60

"All because a simple (and in my opinion not so important) feature wasn’t being included"

Actually it's a pretty important feature and a differentiator! 

I agree with ZeniMax doing a really great job, and they deserve the recognition. I only hope they will continue to keep up the good work and attitude towards players opinion, but there's also a big risk here. Blizzard messed up with WoW because, trying to get even more money, listened the kid players complaining, and they made the game pretty straightforward.

I don't think there is a perfect recipe for properly balancing everything in a game like this, to be honest...

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