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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » Do you think ESO will eventually give in to the F2P or B2P model?

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243 posts found
  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

3/09/14 11:18:42 AM#221
Originally posted by kkarrabbass

You do not understand whole market thing very well, do you?

“Market” is not a magical word, which works miracles. Prices go up and down. And it all depends on concurrency. Quality games do not add free options, only failing ones do. And they present very little concurrency to games, which are not failing yet. I do not want to repeat whole my thread again.

You need to read it all, not a little piece of it. And maybe, just maybe you will see whole picture. If you do have open mind and appropriate education of course.

You're redefining the word quality to support your weak argument.  Under your logic that quality games don't add free options, almost all of the "quality" MMOs would be games with currently tiny player bases that make almost no money, while several massive moneymakers would be considered "not quality."  Hell, even WoW has a 20 level free option, are you saying WoW is a failure?

The fact is, when the average quality level of games you can play for free in 2014 is substantially higher than the average quality level of games you had to pay a sub for was as recently as three or four years ago, the standards people apply to determine what is "worthy" of a sub increase.  A lot of people simply aren't willing to pay more than the market standard, so if the market standard fee goes down, companies that insist on sticking with the old prices are going to see some degradation in their market share vs. where they would have been if the industry was still universally subscription based.

ESO is a quality game, no matter how long it takes it to switch to Freemium.  So is Wildstar.  Neither game is going to be to every individual's taste, and the dynamics of the market may have changed too much to allow them to stay sub only as long as they would like, but both are very well made versions of the concepts their developers were trying to implement.  It is not a requirement of being "quality" that a game be able to defy market trends.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  kryptzlol

Novice Member

Joined: 10/09/10
Posts: 5

"There are no atheists in Foxholes"

3/09/14 11:31:33 AM#222

I don't get this "only Elder Scrolls players will buy ESO" mentality. I've never played Skyrim or other elder scrolls games because I have no interest in single player games but I'm buying ESO.

Also, I hope this game never converts to F2P, I hate F2P games where I have to play with people that can't afford 14 euros a month. I consider 12-15 euro a month money well spent if I enjoy playing it.

  EQBallzz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/28/13
Posts: 139

3/09/14 11:31:38 AM#223
Originally posted by Sk1ppeR
Originally posted by EQBallzz
Originally posted by Sk1ppeR
Originally posted by blazzen67
Originally posted by Kattycake
Originally posted by Waldoe
The day it goes F2P or B2P is the day myself and many friends stop playing.

Why? It would be the same idea just altered.

why? because it will turn into a micro transaction, pay gated piece of dung like all F2P games are..dont get me started on gold farmers, bots ,and a terrible player community . so im with Waldoe, the day this game goes F2P is the day i stop playing it.

You should swallow your stupid pride and check out RIFT and Tera or the north american Aion or Gw2 or TSW. Then you can come back and say shit like what you just said. In the games I listed there is not a single paywall. None! All of you cocky subscription whiteknights are spewing crap about F2P games without playing a single good one. 

 

I can give you endless example of utterly bad P2P games. Should we blame all P2P for it? No? Double standards? 

And as I said above, there is terrible community at EVE Online, at WoW, at FFXIV AND at DFUW. All of them having subscription. Again....double standards much? 

Don't let me even start on the botting issue since I've botted in every MMO to day with the exception of Gw2, I just felt like playing in it

 

Saying the post that you did, given the examples that I just gave, pretty much turns you into a hypocrite. 

 

I disagree. I used to support Rift and Trion. Their game was solid and their customer service was top notch. After it went F2P their customer service was so bad I uninstalled the game and will never play another Trion game again (including ArcheAge which i was previously looking forward to). I can't speak much for Tera because I couldn't get very far into it. Wasn't my game. I never played Aion, either but GW2 and TSW are not F2P so don't even belong in your list. B2P is not the same as F2P. In my view B2P is the best compromise between P2P and F2P and GW2 has a pretty good model despite the fact that their end game is pretty terrible IMO. I don't necessarily blame their pay model for that fact as much as their design philosophy. Some like it I guess so that's why I just moved on. Outside of their end game and lack of trinity I really liked what GW2 had going on.

 

I hear EQ2 has made some positive changes to improve it's horrible F2P model and that may be great for a game in it's twilight years but the fact remains that there just aren't many new F2P games that actually release as F2P and are any good. Path of Exile is the only example I can come up with. The rest are financially failed games going F2P because they are desperate to survive. That's not much of a ringing endorsement for F2P and justifies the F2P criticism IMO.

So ... what, you have a date with customer support each week? I went playing RIFT after it went F2P. Before that it really looked just like WoW to me (given they share almost the same interface) but regardless, once i started playing it, I never felt the urge to contact customer support. Didn't encounter game braking bug, they took my money when I wanted to use the cash shop. Its all cool. 

TERA failed financially because they couldn't push content out fast enough. We all know how bitchy subscribers get when they don't get their new shiny. They were promising stuff and rarely delivered. Obviously the customers punished them for that, but that doesn't make the base game bad. EQNext is to launch as F2P from the get go, is it already a failed game? 

But yeah, I really support with my both hands the B2P model. I like the idea of going back to a game whenever I want and I like the idea of not feeling pressured to "cash-in" that subscription fee. Or have all of my gaming habbits around only one game. I did that as a kid, now I have to think how much free time i have and what could I achieve in my limitted time. Hell, i love MMOs, but if you check out my Raptr profile, you'll see that lately I play more and more Battlefield 3 in 30 minute sessions :) 

That's one of the reasons I'll never touch TESO. 

 

No I didn't have a date with customer support. I had a billing dispute and they refused to address the issue. They said they would have refunded me the money if I had contacted them sooner but the only way I knew there was an issue was looking at my next credit card bill. How was I supposed to contact them sooner than seeing my bill? They told me in no uncertain terms they were keeping my money regardless. I have contacted their customer support in the past and had good service but I guess now that they are F2P they are so desperate for money they have to grab as much of it as they can by any means possible which is a terrible sign of the state of Trion IMO and why I won't be giving them any more money..ever.

 

Maybe Tera couldn't push out enough content because it's F2P and they didn't have the resources to do so? Sounds very similar to NW. It's also one of the general complaints with F2P so is a valid complaint with regard to Tera. In contrast, look at how much content ESO is launching with. There looks to be about 10 times as much leveling content and variety in ESO over say Neverwinter. Not to mention there is actually a functioning and deep end game FROM LAUNCH not a year down the road from launch. There is a deep and viable crafting system. They have also announced some fairly major content releasing relatively soon after launch. ESO will have a metric fuckton of things to do at launch. Neverwinter for all intents and purposes died as soon as you hit max level. The end game was/is laughable. The leveling variety is nil regardless of your race/class choices. The game is about as shallow as they come and this is a typical complaint with F2P games. You may not like ESO and you may not like the P2P model but at least there is actual content.

  AkemiZen

Novice Member

Joined: 2/18/14
Posts: 24

What if everyone is a little bit right and a little bit wrong?

3/09/14 11:35:19 AM#224

I think some companies have made a lot of money with item shops, and with their success, many other companies have either embraced this or incorporated it, in some way, into their gaming model.  I believe a subscription based model is the most cost effective, for what you get, for the consumer.  You can spend 10 dollars easily going to a movie that lasts 2 hours, making it approx 5 dollars an hour in entertainment.  For 5 dollars more, I can get many hours and have 100% access to what everyone else in the game has access to.  So call me selfish, but I really hope Elder Scrolls Online sticks with a premium subscription model.  I tried a free to play game that had an item shop and said I will only spend $15 a month in the item shop and see where it gets me...I ended up spending $25.

Overall, perhaps it is a good thing that there are so many games on the market to address the playing needs of the diverse variety of people out there called gamers.  My answer to the original question?  I hope not.

  Carnicide

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/14/13
Posts: 215

3/09/14 11:35:30 AM#225
Originally posted by Kattycake

Just gonna keep this short;

A lot of people, so I've seen/heard from, believe that ESO will turn into what SWTOR once did. TERA switched, The Secret World switched, Rift...etc.

Do you think dishing $15/mo will be a bit much to some players? I mean even ArcheAge in RU Beta is $9/mo for premium.

I think the game will not go into F2P if Zeni keeps this current cycle of listening to their player base. I honestly think Trion did the best as far as listening. Such a great company, but their game was doomed to F2P it was just boring to look at and listen to. Everything else was great as far as any tab target game can do.

  Sk1ppeR

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/29/12
Posts: 534

3/09/14 1:45:38 PM#226
Originally posted by EQBallzz
Originally posted by Sk1ppeR
Originally posted by EQBallzz
Originally posted by Sk1ppeR
Originally posted by blazzen67
Originally posted by Kattycake
Originally posted by Waldoe
The day it goes F2P or B2P is the day myself and many friends stop playing.

Why? It would be the same idea just altered.

why? because it will turn into a micro transaction, pay gated piece of dung like all F2P games are..dont get me started on gold farmers, bots ,and a terrible player community . so im with Waldoe, the day this game goes F2P is the day i stop playing it.

You should swallow your stupid pride and check out RIFT and Tera or the north american Aion or Gw2 or TSW. Then you can come back and say shit like what you just said. In the games I listed there is not a single paywall. None! All of you cocky subscription whiteknights are spewing crap about F2P games without playing a single good one. 

 

I can give you endless example of utterly bad P2P games. Should we blame all P2P for it? No? Double standards? 

And as I said above, there is terrible community at EVE Online, at WoW, at FFXIV AND at DFUW. All of them having subscription. Again....double standards much? 

Don't let me even start on the botting issue since I've botted in every MMO to day with the exception of Gw2, I just felt like playing in it

 

Saying the post that you did, given the examples that I just gave, pretty much turns you into a hypocrite. 

 

I disagree. I used to support Rift and Trion. Their game was solid and their customer service was top notch. After it went F2P their customer service was so bad I uninstalled the game and will never play another Trion game again (including ArcheAge which i was previously looking forward to). I can't speak much for Tera because I couldn't get very far into it. Wasn't my game. I never played Aion, either but GW2 and TSW are not F2P so don't even belong in your list. B2P is not the same as F2P. In my view B2P is the best compromise between P2P and F2P and GW2 has a pretty good model despite the fact that their end game is pretty terrible IMO. I don't necessarily blame their pay model for that fact as much as their design philosophy. Some like it I guess so that's why I just moved on. Outside of their end game and lack of trinity I really liked what GW2 had going on.

 

I hear EQ2 has made some positive changes to improve it's horrible F2P model and that may be great for a game in it's twilight years but the fact remains that there just aren't many new F2P games that actually release as F2P and are any good. Path of Exile is the only example I can come up with. The rest are financially failed games going F2P because they are desperate to survive. That's not much of a ringing endorsement for F2P and justifies the F2P criticism IMO.

So ... what, you have a date with customer support each week? I went playing RIFT after it went F2P. Before that it really looked just like WoW to me (given they share almost the same interface) but regardless, once i started playing it, I never felt the urge to contact customer support. Didn't encounter game braking bug, they took my money when I wanted to use the cash shop. Its all cool. 

TERA failed financially because they couldn't push content out fast enough. We all know how bitchy subscribers get when they don't get their new shiny. They were promising stuff and rarely delivered. Obviously the customers punished them for that, but that doesn't make the base game bad. EQNext is to launch as F2P from the get go, is it already a failed game? 

But yeah, I really support with my both hands the B2P model. I like the idea of going back to a game whenever I want and I like the idea of not feeling pressured to "cash-in" that subscription fee. Or have all of my gaming habbits around only one game. I did that as a kid, now I have to think how much free time i have and what could I achieve in my limitted time. Hell, i love MMOs, but if you check out my Raptr profile, you'll see that lately I play more and more Battlefield 3 in 30 minute sessions :) 

That's one of the reasons I'll never touch TESO. 

 

No I didn't have a date with customer support. I had a billing dispute and they refused to address the issue. They said they would have refunded me the money if I had contacted them sooner but the only way I knew there was an issue was looking at my next credit card bill. How was I supposed to contact them sooner than seeing my bill? They told me in no uncertain terms they were keeping my money regardless. I have contacted their customer support in the past and had good service but I guess now that they are F2P they are so desperate for money they have to grab as much of it as they can by any means possible which is a terrible sign of the state of Trion IMO and why I won't be giving them any more money..ever.

 

Maybe Tera couldn't push out enough content because it's F2P and they didn't have the resources to do so? Sounds very similar to NW. It's also one of the general complaints with F2P so is a valid complaint with regard to Tera. In contrast, look at how much content ESO is launching with. There looks to be about 10 times as much leveling content and variety in ESO over say Neverwinter. Not to mention there is actually a functioning and deep end game FROM LAUNCH not a year down the road from launch. There is a deep and viable crafting system. They have also announced some fairly major content releasing relatively soon after launch. ESO will have a metric fuckton of things to do at launch. Neverwinter for all intents and purposes died as soon as you hit max level. The end game was/is laughable. The leveling variety is nil regardless of your race/class choices. The game is about as shallow as they come and this is a typical complaint with F2P games. You may not like ESO and you may not like the P2P model but at least there is actual content.

Tera used to be subscription based mate, for over a year :) 

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5357

3/09/14 2:25:26 PM#227
Sure it will so play it now before the F2P idiots join in. :D
  Kattycake

Novice Member

Joined: 2/19/14
Posts: 32

 
OP  3/10/14 12:13:13 AM#228
Originally posted by Scot
Sure it will so play it now before the F2P idiots join in. :D

Lol.

xoxo

  jusomdude

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/21/06
Posts: 2364

3/10/14 12:22:16 AM#229

I guess it depends on how stubborn the developers are and how they feel about their sub numbers. Some MMOs still haven't gone f2p to this day even though they can't have more than 20k subs, like DAoC, Ultima Online.

 

Although maybe they just couldn't adopt those games to f2p. I think games today are probably developed with the idea that they may end up going f2p.

  Legere

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/20/11
Posts: 115

3/10/14 12:31:21 AM#230

there is so much shit with this game, i dont think money will be the only reason it fails hard.

 

  LisaFlexy22

Novice Member

Joined: 2/10/14
Posts: 422

3/10/14 6:21:05 AM#231
Definitely will.  Just like Wildstar they will bank on the initial box sales and high sub counts knowing they will switch to F2P when sub counts drop.  Business plan.
  GamerDan79

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/14
Posts: 39

3/10/14 8:58:13 AM#232
Originally posted by LisaFlexy22
Definitely will.  Just like Wildstar they will bank on the initial box sales and high sub counts knowing they will switch to F2P when sub counts drop.  Business plan.

 

But ZOS devs have always maintained they would never do this to their loyal fans?

 

I am super excited for this game (despite the recent nerfs to just about all progression outside main story line PvE questing) but if this turns into another cash shop driven game I will drop it like a hot potatoe.

 

Subs only please, as the devs have always promised :)

  VoreDock

Novice Member

Joined: 4/12/12
Posts: 124

3/10/14 9:01:16 AM#233
yes  so will wildstar 
  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7313

3/10/14 9:10:11 AM#234


The question isn't "If it goes F2P" but "When it goes F2P".

  ShavaKa

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/05/05
Posts: 56

3/10/14 10:16:23 AM#235
Originally posted by Gdemami


The question isn't "If it goes F2P" but "When it goes F2P".

 

It really does seem like the hint of f2p is there, it also seems different, but from reading the other thread on loot drops being better than crafted thread and what zeni is doing to crafting... If this streamlining continues I would have no doubt.

 

The thing to look for is that stagnate market standardization and balance changes that make everything equal and easy. That's the whistle blow for me, the lack of depth etc.

 

I do like ESO and love how Zeni seem to be listening. However, it seems like the players who're market trained and QQing might be greater than the ones who want change.

 

idk, I still have hope, ten years of nothing innovative is killing me...

  RizelStar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 2824

We all breathe and we all die.

3/10/14 10:30:39 AM#236

It will most likely go F2P, good game or not, it will eventually unless they have a  mindset of "P2P or we will shut down."

So yea depends really, but I believe F2P more so than that mindset.

Would I sub to ESO if I felt like 15 a month for one video game is worth it? Yes I actually would but don't feel that way about any game to date so, yep. From beta impressions especially on the PVP side it's fun though so I don't expect it to go F2P soon.

 

I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  rodarin

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/21/10
Posts: 450

3/10/14 10:38:38 AM#237

Of course theyre going to abandon the sub model, as soon as they milk the fans out of the most money they can.

 

Its also more apparent that less than 3 weeks from pre release they have yet to offer extended sub models. Right now its a month to month sub and the full 15 (14.99) a month.

 

I was really expecting them to have some sort of 'founders' pricing like 9.99 a month for a year or even 99.99 for a year for pre order guys. But not yet at least. That would 'buy' them 12 months of subs at least. But the fact they arent offering any extended subs whatsoever yet shows they either have some integrity (and wont sell extended plans knowing they wont be offering subs very long) or they havent figured out a way to spin it yet once they do move from sub to free to play/hybrid.

 

But really there are so many questions and negatives associated wit this game right now it is unreal. On a lot of levels and sides. So many people cant address them all and they all blend together when people critique or defend the game.

 

But anyone with a brain knew the answer to this questions weeks ago when they announced the pre order 'bonuses' and differences.

 

Irony is the defenders of the game and sub model defenders will 'better' the game for people who wait and get it for nothing. Only question then will be how many people are left playing and if it is even worth playing anyway.

  GamerDan79

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/14
Posts: 39

3/10/14 12:44:14 PM#238
Originally posted by rodarin

Of course theyre going to abandon the sub model, as soon as they milk the fans out of the most money they can.

 

Its also more apparent that less than 3 weeks from pre release they have yet to offer extended sub models. Right now its a month to month sub and the full 15 (14.99) a month.

 

I was really expecting them to have some sort of 'founders' pricing like 9.99 a month for a year or even 99.99 for a year for pre order guys. But not yet at least. That would 'buy' them 12 months of subs at least. But the fact they arent offering any extended subs whatsoever yet shows they either have some integrity (and wont sell extended plans knowing they wont be offering subs very long) or they havent figured out a way to spin it yet once they do move from sub to free to play/hybrid.

 

But really there are so many questions and negatives associated wit this game right now it is unreal. On a lot of levels and sides. So many people cant address them all and they all blend together when people critique or defend the game.

 

But anyone with a brain knew the answer to this questions weeks ago when they announced the pre order 'bonuses' and differences.

 

Irony is the defenders of the game and sub model defenders will 'better' the game for people who wait and get it for nothing. Only question then will be how many people are left playing and if it is even worth playing anyway.

 

I don't see how they can...

 

They have made such a huge deal the whole time about how they would never follow the nickel n dime route and that this game would always be a sub based game providing real value to it's customers.

 

How can they implement a cheap ass gouging / milking philosophy after banging that drum for so long?

 

Talk about credability suicide...

  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

3/10/14 1:03:12 PM#239

Originally posted by GamerDan79

But ZOS devs have always maintained they would never do this to their loyal fans?

 I am super excited for this game (despite the recent nerfs to just about all progression outside main story line PvE questing) but if this turns into another cash shop driven game I will drop it like a hot potatoe.

 Subs only please, as the devs have always promised :)

Originally posted by GamerDan79 

I don't see how they can... 

They have made such a huge deal the whole time about how they would never follow the nickel n dime route and that this game would always be a sub based game providing real value to it's customers. 

How can they implement a cheap ass gouging / milking philosophy after banging that drum for so long? 

Talk about credability suicide...

Because dev teams change over time.  If six months down the road, or two years down the road, you have basically an entirely different group of people in charge of the game, they probably aren't going to care about promises made by people who don't even work there anymore.

 

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  nitefly

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/26/06
Posts: 340

3/10/14 4:02:54 PM#240

If there are enough players who feel they are getting 15$ worth of entertainment every month, then the game will remain subscription based. The moment the revenue generated every month doesn't cover costs, then something will likely change.

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