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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Throw out the intro narrative and just put me in the damn game!

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93 posts found
  sludgebeard

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/18/13
Posts: 291

 
OP  2/21/14 5:25:57 PM#1

Im so sick of seeing these MMO's where you have to go through 10 fetch quests, and kill a bunch of pointless mobs just to get into the core game world. Watching the Angry Joe review of Wildstar where he spends the first 20 minutes of the game picking up books and talking to floating cambots, I just thought "enoughs enough", these are pointless narrative building quests that only slow down he intro to a hopeless crawl.

 

Just do it like WoW did, have a 15sec intro cinematic that also sprawls through the opener zone, and then bam! Release the character into the opener zone and let them travel openly to anywhere the player likes. 

 

Does anyone else find these modern MMO starter zones to be boring and shallow?

 

 

 

 

  Avarix

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/22/12
Posts: 273

2/21/14 5:30:12 PM#2
This may not be a bad idea. Simply ask whether the player has played MMORPGs before and if so you can skip it. I think TERA did this? Trying to remember, it has been a while. I can't imagine it would be hard to implement. 
  djazzy

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/05
Posts: 3623

2/21/14 5:31:23 PM#3
You seem to have a different idea of what WoW does than I do.  I remember the first thing I had to do was kill 10 wolves. And the levels pretty much prohibit you from going anywhere you want.
  Incomparable

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/11/11
Posts: 742

2/21/14 5:32:40 PM#4

edit: The intro you are talking about is an explanation to everything. Im guessing you can skip that... but then when you want to use said items... you are going to figure it out on your own or dig through lore/codex. Im sure its simple to figure out.

If you are talking about mindless quests, then I think they need to approach a more exclusive design to meet player demands for mmos and to avoid the grindy aspect of lvling.

 

The problem is the implementation. And when you give a dev a carte blanche to try to deliver on your expectations without really saying what you want... then there could be dissapointment.

However, for a game to avoid grind, I believe it needs several things;

1. End game that is challenging - dynamic as well that levels are different for raids

2. PvP is big, and also there are scenarios of conquest that reset the server, possibly for a pvp server conquest exclusive ported from regular server.

3. Player created content

4. Mini games - card games, among other mechanics which become included in quests as well. Crafting is important.

5. Integration - similar to point 4, but bringing new features to have a pvp and pve inclusion. For example mounted combat for pvp and in pve.

6. Training dummies deisgned specifically for figuring out rotations since the early lvls are skipped.

 

Goes without saying combat, and animations are very important... but also goes with certain expectations. What are the expectations of the player? What are average pcs capable of handling. In eso pvp sounds great but it seems animations took a beating to deliver that.

“Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble”

  Alders

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/10
Posts: 1653

I cannot fiddle but I can make a great state of a small city.

2/21/14 5:37:15 PM#5

I really see no point in starter zones anymore.  I assume most players try to get the hell out of them as fast as possible so it seems like wasted resources to me.

An opening cinematic should be more than enough to set the stage.  Plop me in the world and let me figure it out.  

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7026

2/21/14 5:38:19 PM#6
It's not just me huh? Devs you are destroying your games with this no sense.
  Tibernicuspa

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/03/13
Posts: 986

2/21/14 5:38:37 PM#7
Originally posted by djazzy
You seem to have a different idea of what WoW does than I do.  I remember the first thing I had to do was kill 10 wolves. And the levels pretty much prohibit you from going anywhere you want.

To be fair, that can describe just about the whole game.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7026

2/21/14 5:44:13 PM#8
@djjazzy

WoW intro used to consist of a home area pan with some racial background. You could go anywhere from there. Nothing at all stopping you. It lasted a grand total of 1 min.

By far the best intro I ever went through.
  Rusque

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 1650

2/21/14 5:51:47 PM#9

I say this as someone who has been gaming for 25 years - are some of you so ego-centric that you don't understand that tutorial areas are designed and meant for people who don't have as much experience as you?

As for WoW letting you "go where ever you wanted". Yes, technically you could. But you couldn't kill mobs once you exceeded your level range and you couldn't pick up quests until you were of appropriate level. So yes, you could just get going, but you couldn't realistically progress.

  jazz.be

Novice Member

Joined: 8/26/06
Posts: 780

2/21/14 5:51:57 PM#10
Yes I don't know why, but they try to shoot us into something that blocks our own imagination and creativity, which is very stupid.
  cheyane

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/17/09
Posts: 2287

2/21/14 6:02:51 PM#11

Everquest really felt like the game you were introduced and left to your own devices . There weren't unless you looked very hard and actually made the appropriate responses any quests even. You just wandered about got killed a lot by orcs or goblins and by guards even who were supposed to protect you when you type hail and forgot the /. Killing an annoying insect turned you kill on sight elsewhere.


Running to Kelethin from Felwithe was an adventure and to Kaladim a real dangerous trip. I think those days will never come back. New players who have never played an MMO need tutorials unlike those of us who played Everquest when it launched.

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  Velocinox

Elite Member

Joined: 3/15/06
Posts: 637

2/21/14 6:10:33 PM#12

I think kindergarten is no longer needed, I mean who needs to learn how to share or their colors or basic counting? I don't know anyone that can't do that already. Just get rid of kindergarten and let us move straight to first grade.

 

My point being; there are new players coming along all the time. You assume everyone is a skilled MMO player, but the most important customer to an MMO is the player that is trying MMOs for the first time. And they are joining the genre everyday. If the devs turn those people off, they don't get a second chance.

 

 

'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.


No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than the one you've become familiar with.


How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.

  jazz.be

Novice Member

Joined: 8/26/06
Posts: 780

2/21/14 6:23:26 PM#13
Originally posted by Velocinox

My point being; there are new players coming along all the time. You assume everyone is a skilled MMO player, but the most important customer to an MMO is the player that is trying MMOs for the first time. And they are joining the genre everyday. If the devs turn those people off, they don't get a second chance.

 

New people don't need that either. People who agreed with OP had an excellent first experienced without all that crap.

Why would you assume new people need that today?

  Velocinox

Elite Member

Joined: 3/15/06
Posts: 637

2/21/14 6:36:54 PM#14
Originally posted by jazz.be
Originally posted by Velocinox

My point being; there are new players coming along all the time. You assume everyone is a skilled MMO player, but the most important customer to an MMO is the player that is trying MMOs for the first time. And they are joining the genre everyday. If the devs turn those people off, they don't get a second chance.

 

New people don't need that either. People who agreed with OP had an excellent first experienced without all that crap.

Why would you assume new people need that today?

You're on an MMO site referencing long term MMO players saying they fondly remember their first encounter with MMOs and you're comparing that to people who have no idea what is going on? That's is both anecdotal and extremely source-biased.

 

One of the biggest complaints that players that tried EQ and disliked it was that they had no idea what was going on. They tried to play and something terrible happened, and then they quit. Regardless of what you think of these people; stupid, cry babies, weak, or whatever derogatory term you apply to them to prop up your own ego, I can tell you their money and continued support are deeply respected by the MMO industry.

 

Try to see this from a broader perspective than your own experience. You are people that played game X (let's say EQ) and what happened afterwards attracted your attention. Things went right, or only wrong enough to keep your attention until things did go right, but not bad enough to turn you off completely. So you stayed in the game genre and went on to years of fun which lead to this moment where you are lamenting the need for new user experiences and tutorials. What about the person that logged into EQ and for whatever reason things went so terrible or unfun that they decided MMOs were not their type of game. Are they here to post to the thread ans say, 'hey, if there had been a tute in EQ I would have stuck with it and the audience for MMOs would one player bigger." No. they stopped playing. They aren't here to give their take on tutorials, they are off playing Titanfall or Civ5. Not giving MMOs a second chance... THAT is why MMOs have beginning areas so that the people that need the money to keep the lights on (and the servers humming) don't miss the chance to get that kind of customer again.

 

To say that MMOs don't need tutorials and starting areas, is both short sighted and shows a lack of insight in just what an MMO team have to think about to attract as many paying customers as possible.

'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.


No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than the one you've become familiar with.


How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.

  Bladestrom

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3129

2/21/14 6:37:22 PM#15
25 years ago people didn't get intros and we have been playing and getting ever more experienced since. My daughter could happily play games on pc's and phones form h age of 5. 'starting zones' comes from people who do t play games or understand gaming.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist)

Now playing Wildstar, AOW 3

  djazzy

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/05
Posts: 3623

2/21/14 6:48:45 PM#16
Originally posted by bcbully
@djjazzy

WoW intro used to consist of a home area pan with some racial background. You could go anywhere from there. Nothing at all stopping you. It lasted a grand total of 1 min.

By far the best intro I ever went through.

right, I remember that. But the OP made it sound like you just jumped into WoW like a sandbox and could go anywhere

I do agree that any tutorial should be skipable though

  jazz.be

Novice Member

Joined: 8/26/06
Posts: 780

2/21/14 6:50:08 PM#17
Originally posted by Velocinox
Originally posted by jazz.be
Originally posted by Velocinox

My point being; there are new players coming along all the time. You assume everyone is a skilled MMO player, but the most important customer to an MMO is the player that is trying MMOs for the first time. And they are joining the genre everyday. If the devs turn those people off, they don't get a second chance.

 

New people don't need that either. People who agreed with OP had an excellent first experienced without all that crap.

Why would you assume new people need that today?

You're on an MMO site referencing long term MMO players saying they fondly remember their first encounter with MMOs and you're comparing that to people who have no idea what is going on? That's is both anecdotal and extremely source-biased.

 

One of the biggest complaints that players that tried EQ and disliked it was that they had no idea what was going on. They tried to play and something terrible happened, and then they quit. Regardless of what you think of these people; stupid, cry babies, weak, or whatever derogatory term you apply to them to prop up your own ego, I can tell you their money and continued support are deeply respected by the MMO industry.

 

Try to see this from a broader perspective than your own experience. You are people that played game X (let's say EQ) and what happened afterwards attracted your attention. Things went right, or only wrong enough to keep your attention until things did go right, but not bad enough to turn you off completely. So you stayed in the game genre and went on to years of fun which lead to this moment where you are lamenting the need for new user experiences and tutorials. What about the person that logged into EQ and for whatever reason things went so terrible or unfun that they decided MMOs were not their type of game. Are they here to post to the thread ans say, 'hey, if there had been a tute in EQ I would have stuck with it and the audience for MMOs would one player bigger." No. they stopped playing. They aren't here to give their take on tutorials, they are off playing Titanfall or Civ5. Not giving MMOs a second chance... THAT is why MMOs have beginning areas so that the people that need the money to keep the lights on (and the servers humming) don't miss the chance to get that kind of customer again.

 

To say that MMOs don't need tutorials and starting areas, is both short sighted and shows a lack of insight in just what an MMO team have to think about to attract as many paying customers as possible.

You're making way to many assumptions.

Now you assume that I care about all the people who didn't feel connected with the game. You assume that I care about the broader view. The reason I play is not to please one part of the community. My goal is to connect with people who enjoy the same. To me the exploration and a little bit effort to find your way is an essential part of the game. And I think that's a point the OP was making as well.

You can call that selfish. But yeah, recreation is quite selfish in a way.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11916

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

2/21/14 6:52:30 PM#18
Originally posted by sludgebeard

Im so sick of seeing these MMO's where you have to go through 10 fetch quests, and kill a bunch of pointless mobs just to get into the core game world. Watching the Angry Joe review of Wildstar where he spends the first 20 minutes of the game picking up books and talking to floating cambots, I just thought "enoughs enough", these are pointless narrative building quests that only slow down he intro to a hopeless crawl.

Just do it like WoW did, have a 15sec intro cinematic that also sprawls through the opener zone, and then bam! Release the character into the opener zone and let them travel openly to anywhere the player likes. 

Does anyone else find these modern MMO starter zones to be boring and shallow?

This is a lesson LOTRO and several other MMO developers learned about five years ago. It seems like each studio develops their game in a vacuum sometimes. 

  Velocinox

Elite Member

Joined: 3/15/06
Posts: 637

2/21/14 7:00:46 PM#19
Originally posted by jazz.be
Originally posted by Velocinox
Originally posted by jazz.be
Originally posted by Velocinox

My point being; there are new players coming along all the time. You assume everyone is a skilled MMO player, but the most important customer to an MMO is the player that is trying MMOs for the first time. And they are joining the genre everyday. If the devs turn those people off, they don't get a second chance.

 

New people don't need that either. People who agreed with OP had an excellent first experienced without all that crap.

Why would you assume new people need that today?

You're on an MMO site referencing long term MMO players saying they fondly remember their first encounter with MMOs and you're comparing that to people who have no idea what is going on? That's is both anecdotal and extremely source-biased.

 

One of the biggest complaints that players that tried EQ and disliked it was that they had no idea what was going on. They tried to play and something terrible happened, and then they quit. Regardless of what you think of these people; stupid, cry babies, weak, or whatever derogatory term you apply to them to prop up your own ego, I can tell you their money and continued support are deeply respected by the MMO industry.

 

Try to see this from a broader perspective than your own experience. You are people that played game X (let's say EQ) and what happened afterwards attracted your attention. Things went right, or only wrong enough to keep your attention until things did go right, but not bad enough to turn you off completely. So you stayed in the game genre and went on to years of fun which lead to this moment where you are lamenting the need for new user experiences and tutorials. What about the person that logged into EQ and for whatever reason things went so terrible or unfun that they decided MMOs were not their type of game. Are they here to post to the thread ans say, 'hey, if there had been a tute in EQ I would have stuck with it and the audience for MMOs would one player bigger." No. they stopped playing. They aren't here to give their take on tutorials, they are off playing Titanfall or Civ5. Not giving MMOs a second chance... THAT is why MMOs have beginning areas so that the people that need the money to keep the lights on (and the servers humming) don't miss the chance to get that kind of customer again.

 

To say that MMOs don't need tutorials and starting areas, is both short sighted and shows a lack of insight in just what an MMO team have to think about to attract as many paying customers as possible.

You're making way to many assumptions.

Now you assume that I care about all the people who didn't feel connected with the game. You assume that I care about the broader view. The reason I play is not to please one part of the community. My goal is to connect with people who enjoy the same. To me the exploration and a little bit effort to find your way is an essential part of the game. And I think that's a point the OP was making as well.

You can call that selfish. But yeah, recreation is quite selfish in a way.

 

Fortunately for the future of the industry, the makers of these game do care about these people. Of course, that's why they are the professionals.

'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.


No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than the one you've become familiar with.


How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.

  jazz.be

Novice Member

Joined: 8/26/06
Posts: 780

2/21/14 7:08:47 PM#20
Originally posted by Velocinox
Originally posted by jazz.be
Originally posted by Velocinox
Originally posted by jazz.be
Originally posted by Velocinox

My point being; there are new players coming along all the time. You assume everyone is a skilled MMO player, but the most important customer to an MMO is the player that is trying MMOs for the first time. And they are joining the genre everyday. If the devs turn those people off, they don't get a second chance.

 

New people don't need that either. People who agreed with OP had an excellent first experienced without all that crap.

Why would you assume new people need that today?

You're on an MMO site referencing long term MMO players saying they fondly remember their first encounter with MMOs and you're comparing that to people who have no idea what is going on? That's is both anecdotal and extremely source-biased.

 

One of the biggest complaints that players that tried EQ and disliked it was that they had no idea what was going on. They tried to play and something terrible happened, and then they quit. Regardless of what you think of these people; stupid, cry babies, weak, or whatever derogatory term you apply to them to prop up your own ego, I can tell you their money and continued support are deeply respected by the MMO industry.

 

Try to see this from a broader perspective than your own experience. You are people that played game X (let's say EQ) and what happened afterwards attracted your attention. Things went right, or only wrong enough to keep your attention until things did go right, but not bad enough to turn you off completely. So you stayed in the game genre and went on to years of fun which lead to this moment where you are lamenting the need for new user experiences and tutorials. What about the person that logged into EQ and for whatever reason things went so terrible or unfun that they decided MMOs were not their type of game. Are they here to post to the thread ans say, 'hey, if there had been a tute in EQ I would have stuck with it and the audience for MMOs would one player bigger." No. they stopped playing. They aren't here to give their take on tutorials, they are off playing Titanfall or Civ5. Not giving MMOs a second chance... THAT is why MMOs have beginning areas so that the people that need the money to keep the lights on (and the servers humming) don't miss the chance to get that kind of customer again.

 

To say that MMOs don't need tutorials and starting areas, is both short sighted and shows a lack of insight in just what an MMO team have to think about to attract as many paying customers as possible.

You're making way to many assumptions.

Now you assume that I care about all the people who didn't feel connected with the game. You assume that I care about the broader view. The reason I play is not to please one part of the community. My goal is to connect with people who enjoy the same. To me the exploration and a little bit effort to find your way is an essential part of the game. And I think that's a point the OP was making as well.

You can call that selfish. But yeah, recreation is quite selfish in a way.

 

Fortunately for the future of the industry, the makers of these game do care about these people. Of course, that's why they are the professionals.

Well the industry isn't exactly doing very well so you might actually want to rethink your case.

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