Trending Games | Guild Wars 2 | EverQuest Next | Crowfall | Star Wars: The Old Republic

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,931,080 Users Online:0
Games:764  Posts:6,339,112
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online AD2460 ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Angry Birds Epic Anime Ninja Anime Pirates Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord 2 Archlord X Ascend: Hand of Kul Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Boot Hill Heroes Borderlands 2 Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Bound by Flame Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Bravada Bravely Default Bravely Second Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Cast & Conquer Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Child of Light Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crowfall Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Cyberpunk 2077 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark Souls 2 Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Dead Island Dead Island 2 Dead Island: Riptide Deco Online Deep Down Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Divinity: Original Sin Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Age: Inquisition Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Fin Soup Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Drakengard 3 Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dungeon of the Endless Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout 4 Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Fearless Fantasy Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy Type-0 HD Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken Uprising Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GRAV GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods Rush Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Heart Forth Alicia Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes & Legends: Conquerors of Kolhar Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Atlan Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online Kill Strain King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings Era Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online Kyn L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Redemption LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Grimrock 2 Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Lichdom: Battlemage Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lords of the Fallen Lords of the Fallen 2 Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance Mass Effect 4 MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms Might & Magic X: Legacy MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Moonrise Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mythborne Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Oort Online Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Overwatch Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Persona V Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pillars of Eternity Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints Pokémon X and Y PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Prodigy Project Blackout Project Gorgon Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Project Zomboid Puzzle Pirates Quest for Infamy Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rail Nation Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of Sierra Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Rebel Galaxy Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Risen 3: Titan Lords Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sacred 3 Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Chance Heroes Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow Realms Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowgate Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian South Park: The Stick of Truth Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Conflict Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Starbound Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Stormthrone Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Styx: Master of Shadows Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online TUG Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Terraria Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Banner Saga The Banner Saga 2 The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Epic Might The Hammers End The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing 2 The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Torment: Tides of Numenera Total Domination Transformers Universe Transistor Transverse Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Triad Wars Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Warflare Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune Wasteland 2 WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warriors World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenoblade Chronicles: X Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » this game would be better with No character Levels and No Zone Levels

4 Pages « 1 2 3 4 » Search
73 posts found
  DKLond

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 580

2/17/14 4:38:37 AM#41
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by DKLond

Here, this is the literal definition of the word: progression.  Yes, the definition you are applying to it is in there.  So is the one I am applying it.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/progression?s=t

 

You're relating it to a succession in quantities.

I'm relating it to a passive of successively from one member to the next.

These definitions have the word successively.  This is an adverb which describes how something is ordered.  The root of the word is successive.  Here is the definition for it:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/succession

 

This word relates to order.  Let's look that word up.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/order?s=t

 

Progression does not just mean more power.  It does mean that - yes.  But it also has other meanings.  It can simply mean moving from one spot to another dependening upon how things are organized.

You can organize something based on the amount of power it generates - vertical progression.

You can organize it based on the color it has - vanity - has no function in relative terms.

You can organize it based on how it generates power - horizontal progression.

You can also organize it based on how the power generated is used - more horizontal progression

All of these are good things.  They can all be great.  But a game alone they do not make.

It is of my opinion that MMO's need more horizontal progression.  It is progress because when you start the game, you have one manner in which you can generate power.  As your progress, you gain more ways in which to generate power.  This makes you more powerful in the fact that you have more options available at your disposal.  This means the entire game has to be designed around this idea.

The point of leveling up in this sort of game is not to equip a more powerful rifle.  The point is to be able to carry a rifle, and a pistol, and some grenades, and a bullet proof vest.  This is horizontal progression.  One item is just as useful as another.  Metrically speaking - they generate the same amount of power.  But by having more options available, you become more powerful.  Not because you generate more power.  But because you now have more ways in which to distribute and generate that power.  Sometimes a pistol works better.  Sometimes a grenade gets the job done.  Sometimes you want a bullet proof vest.... though to be fair, I don't know when you would ever not want one :P

Real life military tactics revolve around the concept of horizontal progression.  A soldier with more skills is a better soldier.  A soldier with more tools is a better soldier.  Providing a soldier with more of either one or both automatically generates more tactical options.  This makes the soldier's unit more powerful.  Not because they generate more power, but because they have more options in how that power is generated and how to disperse it.

No one is arguing that vertical progression is bad.  I am simply saying that horizontal progression is progression if you DESIGN THE WHOLE GAME around it being progress.  "Hey, awesome - I couldn't carry grenades before.  Now I can.  This is cool.  I feel like my guy is becoming more powerful and that I am progressing in this game."

I understand completely this is about video games.  Bringing real life scenarios into this is to help you understand what I am talking about, because generally speaking, people relate better to things that are real.  I'm talking about a principle - not the actual thing.

Something that generates an advantage in a video game is a vague statement that could literally mean anything.  Having a powerful rifle is an advantage.  Having grenades is an advantage.  Having both is an even bigger advantage, even if the other person has a more powerful rifle than you do.  It's all in whether or not the game is designed to take advantage of a horizontal progression.  The point that makes it progress is the fact that you get to use this other thing, when before, you couldn't.

Geez... you're making a very simple thing to be overly complicated.

Looking at that post and your last sentence is kinda amusing.

I'm the one making it overly complicated? Ok ;)

Yes, a soldier with more skills is a better soldier. A better soldier is a more powerful soldier. Giving him a power that's better in a specific situation makes him more powerful - which is vertical progression.

It's really very simple. Once again - if you give something that makes them more powerful - you're giving them VERTICAL progression. ALL progression is vertical.

If you add fishing to an MMO - that's not giving a player PROGRESSION. That's adding to the gameplay HORIZON. However, WITHIN that specific activity - you can have PROGRESSION - as in the player can get BETTER at fishing. As in, he's going to be better at fishing than someone who hasn't progressed.

Progression is becoming BETTER - moving FORWARD - it's becoming more POWERFUL.

"True" horizontal progression is an ILLUSION - because it would mean giving players powers that are each identical in power - which CAN NOT HAPPEN in a world controlled by binary numbers and math.

If something was truly identical - it wouldn't represent any kind of progression, horizontal or otherwise.

I think we're going in circles, at this point - don't you?

By all means, if you consider fishing and housing progression - then that's fine - I don't.

If you think giving a player more powers is not vertical progression (MORE powerful because of more choice) - fine, I don't.

HOWEVER:

We essentially agree. MMOs need a wider gameplay horizon. They don't need horizontal progression - because it doesn't exist.

  Notimeforbs

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/28/13
Posts: 324

2/17/14 5:20:16 AM#42
Originally posted by DKLond
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by DKLond

Here, this is the literal definition of the word: progression.  Yes, the definition you are applying to it is in there.  So is the one I am applying it.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/progression?s=t

 

You're relating it to a succession in quantities.

I'm relating it to a passive of successively from one member to the next.

These definitions have the word successively.  This is an adverb which describes how something is ordered.  The root of the word is successive.  Here is the definition for it:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/succession

 

This word relates to order.  Let's look that word up.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/order?s=t

 

Progression does not just mean more power.  It does mean that - yes.  But it also has other meanings.  It can simply mean moving from one spot to another dependening upon how things are organized.

You can organize something based on the amount of power it generates - vertical progression.

You can organize it based on the color it has - vanity - has no function in relative terms.

You can organize it based on how it generates power - horizontal progression.

You can also organize it based on how the power generated is used - more horizontal progression

All of these are good things.  They can all be great.  But a game alone they do not make.

It is of my opinion that MMO's need more horizontal progression.  It is progress because when you start the game, you have one manner in which you can generate power.  As your progress, you gain more ways in which to generate power.  This makes you more powerful in the fact that you have more options available at your disposal.  This means the entire game has to be designed around this idea.

The point of leveling up in this sort of game is not to equip a more powerful rifle.  The point is to be able to carry a rifle, and a pistol, and some grenades, and a bullet proof vest.  This is horizontal progression.  One item is just as useful as another.  Metrically speaking - they generate the same amount of power.  But by having more options available, you become more powerful.  Not because you generate more power.  But because you now have more ways in which to distribute and generate that power.  Sometimes a pistol works better.  Sometimes a grenade gets the job done.  Sometimes you want a bullet proof vest.... though to be fair, I don't know when you would ever not want one :P

Real life military tactics revolve around the concept of horizontal progression.  A soldier with more skills is a better soldier.  A soldier with more tools is a better soldier.  Providing a soldier with more of either one or both automatically generates more tactical options.  This makes the soldier's unit more powerful.  Not because they generate more power, but because they have more options in how that power is generated and how to disperse it.

No one is arguing that vertical progression is bad.  I am simply saying that horizontal progression is progression if you DESIGN THE WHOLE GAME around it being progress.  "Hey, awesome - I couldn't carry grenades before.  Now I can.  This is cool.  I feel like my guy is becoming more powerful and that I am progressing in this game."

I understand completely this is about video games.  Bringing real life scenarios into this is to help you understand what I am talking about, because generally speaking, people relate better to things that are real.  I'm talking about a principle - not the actual thing.

Something that generates an advantage in a video game is a vague statement that could literally mean anything.  Having a powerful rifle is an advantage.  Having grenades is an advantage.  Having both is an even bigger advantage, even if the other person has a more powerful rifle than you do.  It's all in whether or not the game is designed to take advantage of a horizontal progression.  The point that makes it progress is the fact that you get to use this other thing, when before, you couldn't.

Geez... you're making a very simple thing to be overly complicated.

Looking at that post and your last sentence is kinda amusing.

I'm the one making it overly complicated? Ok ;)

Yes, a soldier with more skills is a better soldier. A better soldier is a more powerful soldier. Giving him a power that's better in a specific situation makes him more powerful - which is vertical progression.

It's really very simple. Once again - if you give something that makes them more powerful - you're giving them VERTICAL progression. ALL progression is vertical.

If you add fishing to an MMO - that's not giving a player PROGRESSION. That's adding to the gameplay HORIZON. However, WITHIN that specific activity - you can have PROGRESSION - as in the player can get BETTER at fishing. As in, he's going to be better at fishing than someone who hasn't progressed.

Progression is becoming BETTER - moving FORWARD - it's becoming more POWERFUL.

"True" horizontal progression is an ILLUSION - because it would mean giving players powers that are each identical in power - which CAN NOT HAPPEN in a world controlled by binary numbers and math.

If something was truly identical - it wouldn't represent any kind of progression, horizontal or otherwise.

I think we're going in circles, at this point - don't you?

By all means, if you consider fishing and housing progression - then that's fine - I don't.

If you think giving a player more powers is not vertical progression (MORE powerful because of more choice) - fine, I don't.

HOWEVER:

We essentially agree. MMOs need a wider gameplay horizon. They don't need horizontal progression - because it doesn't exist.

You're obviously not going to get this.  I've given you the clear definitions and I've explained this as simply as I possibly can.

If horizontal progression doesn't exist... then neither would vertical progression.  It would just be... progress.  We divide this concept into categories for a reason.  They are words used to describe how the progress is made in a conceptual expression.  They are adjectives - they give meaning and more clarity to the noun.  These are standard industry terms.  You saying "horizontal progression" doesn't exist is like saying the word "horizontal" doesn't exist.  It's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

What the hell is gameplay horizon?  I'm 31 years old.  I've been playing video games since I was 5 years old.  My first game ever was Super Mario Brothers on the NES.  The second game I ever played was Tiger Heli.  I have never, not one time, in all my life, heard the term "gameplay horizon."  Seriously dude... are you just making this crap up as you go?

It doesn't matter what you "think".  It matters what is.  You're telling me what you personally consider to be true, and I'm telling you what actually IS true.

And no - we obviously don't agree.  I don't even know what the hell gameplay horizon is, and you insist that horizontal progression doesn't exist.  You are obviously processing information in an imaginary domain of language.

We're done here, I think.  I know I am.

  DKLond

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 580

2/17/14 5:28:03 AM#43
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by DKLond
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by DKLond

Here, this is the literal definition of the word: progression.  Yes, the definition you are applying to it is in there.  So is the one I am applying it.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/progression?s=t

 

You're relating it to a succession in quantities.

I'm relating it to a passive of successively from one member to the next.

These definitions have the word successively.  This is an adverb which describes how something is ordered.  The root of the word is successive.  Here is the definition for it:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/succession

 

This word relates to order.  Let's look that word up.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/order?s=t

 

Progression does not just mean more power.  It does mean that - yes.  But it also has other meanings.  It can simply mean moving from one spot to another dependening upon how things are organized.

You can organize something based on the amount of power it generates - vertical progression.

You can organize it based on the color it has - vanity - has no function in relative terms.

You can organize it based on how it generates power - horizontal progression.

You can also organize it based on how the power generated is used - more horizontal progression

All of these are good things.  They can all be great.  But a game alone they do not make.

It is of my opinion that MMO's need more horizontal progression.  It is progress because when you start the game, you have one manner in which you can generate power.  As your progress, you gain more ways in which to generate power.  This makes you more powerful in the fact that you have more options available at your disposal.  This means the entire game has to be designed around this idea.

The point of leveling up in this sort of game is not to equip a more powerful rifle.  The point is to be able to carry a rifle, and a pistol, and some grenades, and a bullet proof vest.  This is horizontal progression.  One item is just as useful as another.  Metrically speaking - they generate the same amount of power.  But by having more options available, you become more powerful.  Not because you generate more power.  But because you now have more ways in which to distribute and generate that power.  Sometimes a pistol works better.  Sometimes a grenade gets the job done.  Sometimes you want a bullet proof vest.... though to be fair, I don't know when you would ever not want one :P

Real life military tactics revolve around the concept of horizontal progression.  A soldier with more skills is a better soldier.  A soldier with more tools is a better soldier.  Providing a soldier with more of either one or both automatically generates more tactical options.  This makes the soldier's unit more powerful.  Not because they generate more power, but because they have more options in how that power is generated and how to disperse it.

No one is arguing that vertical progression is bad.  I am simply saying that horizontal progression is progression if you DESIGN THE WHOLE GAME around it being progress.  "Hey, awesome - I couldn't carry grenades before.  Now I can.  This is cool.  I feel like my guy is becoming more powerful and that I am progressing in this game."

I understand completely this is about video games.  Bringing real life scenarios into this is to help you understand what I am talking about, because generally speaking, people relate better to things that are real.  I'm talking about a principle - not the actual thing.

Something that generates an advantage in a video game is a vague statement that could literally mean anything.  Having a powerful rifle is an advantage.  Having grenades is an advantage.  Having both is an even bigger advantage, even if the other person has a more powerful rifle than you do.  It's all in whether or not the game is designed to take advantage of a horizontal progression.  The point that makes it progress is the fact that you get to use this other thing, when before, you couldn't.

Geez... you're making a very simple thing to be overly complicated.

Looking at that post and your last sentence is kinda amusing.

I'm the one making it overly complicated? Ok ;)

Yes, a soldier with more skills is a better soldier. A better soldier is a more powerful soldier. Giving him a power that's better in a specific situation makes him more powerful - which is vertical progression.

It's really very simple. Once again - if you give something that makes them more powerful - you're giving them VERTICAL progression. ALL progression is vertical.

If you add fishing to an MMO - that's not giving a player PROGRESSION. That's adding to the gameplay HORIZON. However, WITHIN that specific activity - you can have PROGRESSION - as in the player can get BETTER at fishing. As in, he's going to be better at fishing than someone who hasn't progressed.

Progression is becoming BETTER - moving FORWARD - it's becoming more POWERFUL.

"True" horizontal progression is an ILLUSION - because it would mean giving players powers that are each identical in power - which CAN NOT HAPPEN in a world controlled by binary numbers and math.

If something was truly identical - it wouldn't represent any kind of progression, horizontal or otherwise.

I think we're going in circles, at this point - don't you?

By all means, if you consider fishing and housing progression - then that's fine - I don't.

If you think giving a player more powers is not vertical progression (MORE powerful because of more choice) - fine, I don't.

HOWEVER:

We essentially agree. MMOs need a wider gameplay horizon. They don't need horizontal progression - because it doesn't exist.

You're obviously not going to get this.  I've given you the clear definitions and I've explained this as simply as I possibly can.

If horizontal progression doesn't exist... then neither would vertical progression.  It would just be... progress.  We divide this concept into categories for a reason.  They are words used to describe how the progress is made in a conceptual expression.  They are adjectives - they give meaning and more clarity to the noun.  These are standard industry terms.  You saying "horizontal progression" doesn't exist is like saying the word "horizontal" doesn't exist.  It's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

What the hell is gameplay horizon?  I'm 31 years old.  I've been playing video games since I was 5 years old.  My first game ever was Super Mario Brothers on the NES.  The second game I ever played was Tiger Heli.  I have never, not one time, in all my life, heard the term "gameplay horizon."  Seriously dude... are you just making this crap up as you go?

It doesn't matter what you "think".  It matters what is.  You're telling me what you personally consider to be true, and I'm telling you what actually IS true.

We're done here, I think.  I know I am.

I'm 37 years old and my first game was a horse racing game with letters representing horses on the ZX-81 - so do I win the prize or what?

Yes, we have opinions - and I'm giving you mine and I'm using rational arguments to support it.

I'm not going to agree with you unil what you're saying makes sense.

As for "gameplay horizon" those are two words I assume you understand. I assume you understand what gameplay is and what a horizon is.

A horizon is what you look towards - and in this case, it's about how many options you have as a gamer. The wider the horizon - the more options.

That's not power and it's not progression, however.

As for you telling me what is "true" - are you seriously telling yourself that represents a convincing argument? Because then you'll be very, very disappointed.

I don't let others dictate truth, sorry.

If you can't rationalise your point - you will fail to convince.

  Notimeforbs

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/28/13
Posts: 324

2/17/14 5:55:27 AM#44
Originally posted by DKLond
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by DKLond
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by DKLond

Here, this is the literal definition of the word: progression.  Yes, the definition you are applying to it is in there.  So is the one I am applying it.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/progression?s=t

 

You're relating it to a succession in quantities.

I'm relating it to a passive of successively from one member to the next.

These definitions have the word successively.  This is an adverb which describes how something is ordered.  The root of the word is successive.  Here is the definition for it:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/succession

 

This word relates to order.  Let's look that word up.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/order?s=t

 

Progression does not just mean more power.  It does mean that - yes.  But it also has other meanings.  It can simply mean moving from one spot to another dependening upon how things are organized.

You can organize something based on the amount of power it generates - vertical progression.

You can organize it based on the color it has - vanity - has no function in relative terms.

You can organize it based on how it generates power - horizontal progression.

You can also organize it based on how the power generated is used - more horizontal progression

All of these are good things.  They can all be great.  But a game alone they do not make.

It is of my opinion that MMO's need more horizontal progression.  It is progress because when you start the game, you have one manner in which you can generate power.  As your progress, you gain more ways in which to generate power.  This makes you more powerful in the fact that you have more options available at your disposal.  This means the entire game has to be designed around this idea.

The point of leveling up in this sort of game is not to equip a more powerful rifle.  The point is to be able to carry a rifle, and a pistol, and some grenades, and a bullet proof vest.  This is horizontal progression.  One item is just as useful as another.  Metrically speaking - they generate the same amount of power.  But by having more options available, you become more powerful.  Not because you generate more power.  But because you now have more ways in which to distribute and generate that power.  Sometimes a pistol works better.  Sometimes a grenade gets the job done.  Sometimes you want a bullet proof vest.... though to be fair, I don't know when you would ever not want one :P

Real life military tactics revolve around the concept of horizontal progression.  A soldier with more skills is a better soldier.  A soldier with more tools is a better soldier.  Providing a soldier with more of either one or both automatically generates more tactical options.  This makes the soldier's unit more powerful.  Not because they generate more power, but because they have more options in how that power is generated and how to disperse it.

No one is arguing that vertical progression is bad.  I am simply saying that horizontal progression is progression if you DESIGN THE WHOLE GAME around it being progress.  "Hey, awesome - I couldn't carry grenades before.  Now I can.  This is cool.  I feel like my guy is becoming more powerful and that I am progressing in this game."

I understand completely this is about video games.  Bringing real life scenarios into this is to help you understand what I am talking about, because generally speaking, people relate better to things that are real.  I'm talking about a principle - not the actual thing.

Something that generates an advantage in a video game is a vague statement that could literally mean anything.  Having a powerful rifle is an advantage.  Having grenades is an advantage.  Having both is an even bigger advantage, even if the other person has a more powerful rifle than you do.  It's all in whether or not the game is designed to take advantage of a horizontal progression.  The point that makes it progress is the fact that you get to use this other thing, when before, you couldn't.

Geez... you're making a very simple thing to be overly complicated.

Looking at that post and your last sentence is kinda amusing.

I'm the one making it overly complicated? Ok ;)

Yes, a soldier with more skills is a better soldier. A better soldier is a more powerful soldier. Giving him a power that's better in a specific situation makes him more powerful - which is vertical progression.

It's really very simple. Once again - if you give something that makes them more powerful - you're giving them VERTICAL progression. ALL progression is vertical.

If you add fishing to an MMO - that's not giving a player PROGRESSION. That's adding to the gameplay HORIZON. However, WITHIN that specific activity - you can have PROGRESSION - as in the player can get BETTER at fishing. As in, he's going to be better at fishing than someone who hasn't progressed.

Progression is becoming BETTER - moving FORWARD - it's becoming more POWERFUL.

"True" horizontal progression is an ILLUSION - because it would mean giving players powers that are each identical in power - which CAN NOT HAPPEN in a world controlled by binary numbers and math.

If something was truly identical - it wouldn't represent any kind of progression, horizontal or otherwise.

I think we're going in circles, at this point - don't you?

By all means, if you consider fishing and housing progression - then that's fine - I don't.

If you think giving a player more powers is not vertical progression (MORE powerful because of more choice) - fine, I don't.

HOWEVER:

We essentially agree. MMOs need a wider gameplay horizon. They don't need horizontal progression - because it doesn't exist.

You're obviously not going to get this.  I've given you the clear definitions and I've explained this as simply as I possibly can.

If horizontal progression doesn't exist... then neither would vertical progression.  It would just be... progress.  We divide this concept into categories for a reason.  They are words used to describe how the progress is made in a conceptual expression.  They are adjectives - they give meaning and more clarity to the noun.  These are standard industry terms.  You saying "horizontal progression" doesn't exist is like saying the word "horizontal" doesn't exist.  It's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

What the hell is gameplay horizon?  I'm 31 years old.  I've been playing video games since I was 5 years old.  My first game ever was Super Mario Brothers on the NES.  The second game I ever played was Tiger Heli.  I have never, not one time, in all my life, heard the term "gameplay horizon."  Seriously dude... are you just making this crap up as you go?

It doesn't matter what you "think".  It matters what is.  You're telling me what you personally consider to be true, and I'm telling you what actually IS true.

We're done here, I think.  I know I am.

I'm 37 years old and my first game was a horse racing game with letters representing horses on the ZX-81 - so do I win the prize or what?

Yes, we have opinions - and I'm giving you mine and I'm using rational arguments to support it.

I'm not going to agree with you unil what you're saying makes sense.

As for "gameplay horizon" those are two words I assume you understand. I assume you understand what gameplay is and what a horizon is.

A horizon is what you look towards - and in this case, it's about how many options you have as a gamer. The wider the horizon - the more options.

That's not power and it's not progression, however.

As for you telling me what is "true" - are you seriously telling yourself that represents a convincing argument? Because then you'll be very, very disappointed.

I don't let others dictate truth, sorry.

If you can't rationalise your point - you will fail to convince.

Okay.  Congratulations on being 37!

My point in saying my age wasn't to win a pissing contest.  My point was to illustrate that in 26 years of being involved in the industry in one form or another, I have never heard a game developer, publisher, marketer, no one, use the term "gameplay horizon" to describe anything about a game or a concept within the game.  When the gaming industry absorbs this as a common concept that professionals use as a standard for conveying a specific element within a game... then I'll accept this as a term from you.  Unfortunately... they don't use this term as far as I am aware, and 26 years is a long time to go without ever hearing it, especially when you stay current on this industry like I do.

Because of this, I have to assume you're just making it up in your own domain of language processing.  My issue with it is that no one else on this earth uses that process.  They use another process.  This process is called a standard.  Horizontal Progression is a standard within that process.  Gameplay Horizon is not.

Yes, I understand what the words mean when they are apart.  What I don't understand is how you put these two words together and expect me to come to the conclusion that what I am talking about... is actually that, when what I am talking about is actually what I called it, justified by the fact that what I called it is an industry standard term.  I don't understand gameplay horizon, because unlike Horizontal Progression... gameplay horizon isn't an actual term used within the industry.

I'm not rationalizing anything to you.  It's already been rationalized by the industry that coined the term.  I'm using the term properly to explain an idea about what I think MMO's need more of.  I used the term Horizontal Progression, knowing what it meant, and assuming others knew what it meant, since it's an industry standard term that means exactly how I am using it in my explanation.

I bet you're going to tell me that "volumetric fog" and "dynamic lighting" don't exist, next.  Instead, what they actually are is "cloudy mass of game mystery" and "bright exclamation mark of simulated vision."

- My opinion was about how the industry standard term "Horizontal Progression" should be applied in an MMO.  Your opinion is that "Horizontal Progression" doesn't actually exist.

- I gave you the definitions to the industry standard term Horizontal Progression, and explained how they make sense according to those REAL dictionary definitions.  You gave me a made up term that no one has ever heard of before, by applying your own interpretation of the definitions to the words that make up that term.

- My use of the industry standard term Horizontal Progression is not an opinion.  The idea to better utilize the concept within the MMO is.  Your opinion is that I am wrong because the industry standard term Horizontal Progression doesn't actually exist... it's actually a made up word gameplay horizon.

- And your final claim is that you are more rational with your conclusion.

Alright.... we're done here.

 

ADDITION::

Just do a Google search, dude.

"Horizontal Progression"

"Gameplay Horizon"

  Entinerint

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/06/12
Posts: 797

2/17/14 6:19:51 AM#45
Originally posted by Damedius

It wouldn't work in an mmo.

Content has to scale to your level to make it challenging and to allow you wander wherever you want to go.

Each player or group would have to have their own instanced world to play in for this to work.

LOL What is it with these people who've only ever played WoW and think that's the only way an MMO can work...?

 

Guess you never played Ultima Online.  No levels or level zones there!  Worked great!

  DKLond

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 580

2/17/14 6:21:59 AM#46
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by DKLond
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by DKLond
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by DKLond

Here, this is the literal definition of the word: progression.  Yes, the definition you are applying to it is in there.  So is the one I am applying it.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/progression?s=t

 

You're relating it to a succession in quantities.

I'm relating it to a passive of successively from one member to the next.

These definitions have the word successively.  This is an adverb which describes how something is ordered.  The root of the word is successive.  Here is the definition for it:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/succession

 

This word relates to order.  Let's look that word up.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/order?s=t

 

Progression does not just mean more power.  It does mean that - yes.  But it also has other meanings.  It can simply mean moving from one spot to another dependening upon how things are organized.

You can organize something based on the amount of power it generates - vertical progression.

You can organize it based on the color it has - vanity - has no function in relative terms.

You can organize it based on how it generates power - horizontal progression.

You can also organize it based on how the power generated is used - more horizontal progression

All of these are good things.  They can all be great.  But a game alone they do not make.

It is of my opinion that MMO's need more horizontal progression.  It is progress because when you start the game, you have one manner in which you can generate power.  As your progress, you gain more ways in which to generate power.  This makes you more powerful in the fact that you have more options available at your disposal.  This means the entire game has to be designed around this idea.

The point of leveling up in this sort of game is not to equip a more powerful rifle.  The point is to be able to carry a rifle, and a pistol, and some grenades, and a bullet proof vest.  This is horizontal progression.  One item is just as useful as another.  Metrically speaking - they generate the same amount of power.  But by having more options available, you become more powerful.  Not because you generate more power.  But because you now have more ways in which to distribute and generate that power.  Sometimes a pistol works better.  Sometimes a grenade gets the job done.  Sometimes you want a bullet proof vest.... though to be fair, I don't know when you would ever not want one :P

Real life military tactics revolve around the concept of horizontal progression.  A soldier with more skills is a better soldier.  A soldier with more tools is a better soldier.  Providing a soldier with more of either one or both automatically generates more tactical options.  This makes the soldier's unit more powerful.  Not because they generate more power, but because they have more options in how that power is generated and how to disperse it.

No one is arguing that vertical progression is bad.  I am simply saying that horizontal progression is progression if you DESIGN THE WHOLE GAME around it being progress.  "Hey, awesome - I couldn't carry grenades before.  Now I can.  This is cool.  I feel like my guy is becoming more powerful and that I am progressing in this game."

I understand completely this is about video games.  Bringing real life scenarios into this is to help you understand what I am talking about, because generally speaking, people relate better to things that are real.  I'm talking about a principle - not the actual thing.

Something that generates an advantage in a video game is a vague statement that could literally mean anything.  Having a powerful rifle is an advantage.  Having grenades is an advantage.  Having both is an even bigger advantage, even if the other person has a more powerful rifle than you do.  It's all in whether or not the game is designed to take advantage of a horizontal progression.  The point that makes it progress is the fact that you get to use this other thing, when before, you couldn't.

Geez... you're making a very simple thing to be overly complicated.

Looking at that post and your last sentence is kinda amusing.

I'm the one making it overly complicated? Ok ;)

Yes, a soldier with more skills is a better soldier. A better soldier is a more powerful soldier. Giving him a power that's better in a specific situation makes him more powerful - which is vertical progression.

It's really very simple. Once again - if you give something that makes them more powerful - you're giving them VERTICAL progression. ALL progression is vertical.

If you add fishing to an MMO - that's not giving a player PROGRESSION. That's adding to the gameplay HORIZON. However, WITHIN that specific activity - you can have PROGRESSION - as in the player can get BETTER at fishing. As in, he's going to be better at fishing than someone who hasn't progressed.

Progression is becoming BETTER - moving FORWARD - it's becoming more POWERFUL.

"True" horizontal progression is an ILLUSION - because it would mean giving players powers that are each identical in power - which CAN NOT HAPPEN in a world controlled by binary numbers and math.

If something was truly identical - it wouldn't represent any kind of progression, horizontal or otherwise.

I think we're going in circles, at this point - don't you?

By all means, if you consider fishing and housing progression - then that's fine - I don't.

If you think giving a player more powers is not vertical progression (MORE powerful because of more choice) - fine, I don't.

HOWEVER:

We essentially agree. MMOs need a wider gameplay horizon. They don't need horizontal progression - because it doesn't exist.

You're obviously not going to get this.  I've given you the clear definitions and I've explained this as simply as I possibly can.

If horizontal progression doesn't exist... then neither would vertical progression.  It would just be... progress.  We divide this concept into categories for a reason.  They are words used to describe how the progress is made in a conceptual expression.  They are adjectives - they give meaning and more clarity to the noun.  These are standard industry terms.  You saying "horizontal progression" doesn't exist is like saying the word "horizontal" doesn't exist.  It's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

What the hell is gameplay horizon?  I'm 31 years old.  I've been playing video games since I was 5 years old.  My first game ever was Super Mario Brothers on the NES.  The second game I ever played was Tiger Heli.  I have never, not one time, in all my life, heard the term "gameplay horizon."  Seriously dude... are you just making this crap up as you go?

It doesn't matter what you "think".  It matters what is.  You're telling me what you personally consider to be true, and I'm telling you what actually IS true.

We're done here, I think.  I know I am.

I'm 37 years old and my first game was a horse racing game with letters representing horses on the ZX-81 - so do I win the prize or what?

Yes, we have opinions - and I'm giving you mine and I'm using rational arguments to support it.

I'm not going to agree with you unil what you're saying makes sense.

As for "gameplay horizon" those are two words I assume you understand. I assume you understand what gameplay is and what a horizon is.

A horizon is what you look towards - and in this case, it's about how many options you have as a gamer. The wider the horizon - the more options.

That's not power and it's not progression, however.

As for you telling me what is "true" - are you seriously telling yourself that represents a convincing argument? Because then you'll be very, very disappointed.

I don't let others dictate truth, sorry.

If you can't rationalise your point - you will fail to convince.

Okay.  Congratulations on being 37!

My point in saying my age wasn't to win a pissing contest.  My point was to illustrate that in 26 years of being involved in the industry in one form or another, I have never heard a game developer, publisher, marketer, no one, use the term "gameplay horizon" to describe anything about a game or a concept within the game.  When the gaming industry absorbs this as a common concept that professionals use as a standard for conveying a specific element within a game... then I'll accept this as a term from you.  Unfortunately... they don't use this term as far as I am aware, and 26 years is a long time to go without ever hearing it, especially when you stay current on this industry like I do.

Because of this, I have to assume you're just making it up in your own domain of language processing.  My issue with it is that no one else on this earth uses that process.  They use another process.  This process is called a standard.  Horizontal Progression is a standard within that process.  Gameplay Horizon is not.

Yes, I understand what the words mean when they are apart.  What I don't understand is how you put these two words together and expect me to come to the conclusion that what I am talking about... is actually that, when what I am talking about is actually what I called it, justified by the fact that what I called it is an industry standard term.  I don't understand gameplay horizon, because unlike Horizontal Progression... gameplay horizon isn't an actual term used within the industry.

I'm not rationalizing anything to you.  It's already been rationalized by the industry that coined the term.  I'm using the term properly to explain an idea about what I think MMO's need more of.  I used the term Horizontal Progression, knowing what it meant, and assuming others knew what it meant, since it's an industry standard term that means exactly how I am using it in my explanation.

I bet you're going to tell me that "volumetric fog" and "dynamic lighting" don't exist, next.  Instead, what they actually are is "cloudy mass of game mystery" and "bright exclamation mark of simulated vision."

- My opinion was about how the industry standard term "Horizontal Progression" should be applied in an MMO.  Your opinion is that "Horizontal Progression" doesn't actually exist.

- I gave you the definitions to the industry standard term Horizontal Progression, and explained how they make sense according to those REAL dictionary definitions.  You gave me a made up term that no one has ever heard of before, by applying your own interpretation of the definitions to the words that make up that term.

- My use of the industry standard term Horizontal Progression is not an opinion.  The idea to better utilize the concept within the MMO is.  Your opinion is that I am wrong because the industry standard term Horizontal Progression doesn't actually exist... it's actually a made up word gameplay horizon.

- And your final claim is that you are more rational with your conclusion.

Alright.... we're done here.

I'm sorry, but because horizontal progression has become trendy in the industry - it doesn't make your understanding of it logical or rational.

For every buzzword out there - there will be different ways of perceiving it and using it.

"Immersion" is another buzzword that means many things to many people.

If you need the industry to hold your hand before you can accept the use of words describing gameplay concepts, then you're right - we're done here.

I can't provide that, as I don't really care about industry standards.

I care about logic and rational arguments when having a debate - and you can't provide that.

Have fun ;)

  Incomparable

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/11/11
Posts: 813

2/17/14 6:28:48 AM#47
Originally posted by MMOExposed

this game would be better with No character Levels and No Zone Levels

 

This would make the game more adventurous to make our own

Adventure.

The level rails make the gane feel more themepark than it needs to be.

 

Dont get me wrong. Levels can stay for thr skills and skill point gain. 

 

But remove the charactet levels and Zones.

 

The Singleplayer game gets away with levels because the world scales to the one player and not hundreads of players.  For a single game world.

 

Get rid of levels and make all the world a big world with no start and endpoint defined.

Its a good idea, but by the sounds of the questing the game needs that carrot on the stick to make the jounrey about the race to end game than in the moment which would put bigger emphasis on the quality of the quests than before. That race to end game, that there is some big objective is a huge draw for players, and to take that away it then has to be replaced by something that makes up for it. And the questing is not suitable by the sounds of it to swtich to having a horizontal progression and should have challenging quests, different quest mechanics, mini games, and also include more in the game over all as well... in not jsut questing but player housing, player made music, player made content etc etc... so the mmo needs to be so much more higher quality to appeal to the main stream crowd by re inventing the wheel so to speak.

To suddenly swtich to horiztontal progression with average/bad questing systems and not much other than a few raids and supposedly great pvp, then the game will do worse, imo.

I would like to see a game do that, and pull it off well. I hear TSW is a good game with decent quests, but the combat seems to be the major critical issue and the animations as well... but its probably not as bad as ppl make it out to be... so maybe TSW is a good example of something similar to what you are talking about and I am suggesting.

 

“Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble”

  maple2

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/27/11
Posts: 108

2/17/14 6:33:39 AM#48

Removing the levels? are u some complete retard? sorry? but really.

 

if they would even consider removing anything it should be the game itself..

 

 

  Notimeforbs

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/28/13
Posts: 324

2/17/14 7:15:00 AM#49
Originally posted by DKLond
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by DKLond
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by DKLond
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by DKLond

Here, this is the literal definition of the word: progression.  Yes, the definition you are applying to it is in there.  So is the one I am applying it.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/progression?s=t

 

You're relating it to a succession in quantities.

I'm relating it to a passive of successively from one member to the next.

These definitions have the word successively.  This is an adverb which describes how something is ordered.  The root of the word is successive.  Here is the definition for it:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/succession

 

This word relates to order.  Let's look that word up.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/order?s=t

 

Progression does not just mean more power.  It does mean that - yes.  But it also has other meanings.  It can simply mean moving from one spot to another dependening upon how things are organized.

You can organize something based on the amount of power it generates - vertical progression.

You can organize it based on the color it has - vanity - has no function in relative terms.

You can organize it based on how it generates power - horizontal progression.

You can also organize it based on how the power generated is used - more horizontal progression

All of these are good things.  They can all be great.  But a game alone they do not make.

It is of my opinion that MMO's need more horizontal progression.  It is progress because when you start the game, you have one manner in which you can generate power.  As your progress, you gain more ways in which to generate power.  This makes you more powerful in the fact that you have more options available at your disposal.  This means the entire game has to be designed around this idea.

The point of leveling up in this sort of game is not to equip a more powerful rifle.  The point is to be able to carry a rifle, and a pistol, and some grenades, and a bullet proof vest.  This is horizontal progression.  One item is just as useful as another.  Metrically speaking - they generate the same amount of power.  But by having more options available, you become more powerful.  Not because you generate more power.  But because you now have more ways in which to distribute and generate that power.  Sometimes a pistol works better.  Sometimes a grenade gets the job done.  Sometimes you want a bullet proof vest.... though to be fair, I don't know when you would ever not want one :P

Real life military tactics revolve around the concept of horizontal progression.  A soldier with more skills is a better soldier.  A soldier with more tools is a better soldier.  Providing a soldier with more of either one or both automatically generates more tactical options.  This makes the soldier's unit more powerful.  Not because they generate more power, but because they have more options in how that power is generated and how to disperse it.

No one is arguing that vertical progression is bad.  I am simply saying that horizontal progression is progression if you DESIGN THE WHOLE GAME around it being progress.  "Hey, awesome - I couldn't carry grenades before.  Now I can.  This is cool.  I feel like my guy is becoming more powerful and that I am progressing in this game."

I understand completely this is about video games.  Bringing real life scenarios into this is to help you understand what I am talking about, because generally speaking, people relate better to things that are real.  I'm talking about a principle - not the actual thing.

Something that generates an advantage in a video game is a vague statement that could literally mean anything.  Having a powerful rifle is an advantage.  Having grenades is an advantage.  Having both is an even bigger advantage, even if the other person has a more powerful rifle than you do.  It's all in whether or not the game is designed to take advantage of a horizontal progression.  The point that makes it progress is the fact that you get to use this other thing, when before, you couldn't.

Geez... you're making a very simple thing to be overly complicated.

Looking at that post and your last sentence is kinda amusing.

I'm the one making it overly complicated? Ok ;)

Yes, a soldier with more skills is a better soldier. A better soldier is a more powerful soldier. Giving him a power that's better in a specific situation makes him more powerful - which is vertical progression.

It's really very simple. Once again - if you give something that makes them more powerful - you're giving them VERTICAL progression. ALL progression is vertical.

If you add fishing to an MMO - that's not giving a player PROGRESSION. That's adding to the gameplay HORIZON. However, WITHIN that specific activity - you can have PROGRESSION - as in the player can get BETTER at fishing. As in, he's going to be better at fishing than someone who hasn't progressed.

Progression is becoming BETTER - moving FORWARD - it's becoming more POWERFUL.

"True" horizontal progression is an ILLUSION - because it would mean giving players powers that are each identical in power - which CAN NOT HAPPEN in a world controlled by binary numbers and math.

If something was truly identical - it wouldn't represent any kind of progression, horizontal or otherwise.

I think we're going in circles, at this point - don't you?

By all means, if you consider fishing and housing progression - then that's fine - I don't.

If you think giving a player more powers is not vertical progression (MORE powerful because of more choice) - fine, I don't.

HOWEVER:

We essentially agree. MMOs need a wider gameplay horizon. They don't need horizontal progression - because it doesn't exist.

You're obviously not going to get this.  I've given you the clear definitions and I've explained this as simply as I possibly can.

If horizontal progression doesn't exist... then neither would vertical progression.  It would just be... progress.  We divide this concept into categories for a reason.  They are words used to describe how the progress is made in a conceptual expression.  They are adjectives - they give meaning and more clarity to the noun.  These are standard industry terms.  You saying "horizontal progression" doesn't exist is like saying the word "horizontal" doesn't exist.  It's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

What the hell is gameplay horizon?  I'm 31 years old.  I've been playing video games since I was 5 years old.  My first game ever was Super Mario Brothers on the NES.  The second game I ever played was Tiger Heli.  I have never, not one time, in all my life, heard the term "gameplay horizon."  Seriously dude... are you just making this crap up as you go?

It doesn't matter what you "think".  It matters what is.  You're telling me what you personally consider to be true, and I'm telling you what actually IS true.

We're done here, I think.  I know I am.

I'm 37 years old and my first game was a horse racing game with letters representing horses on the ZX-81 - so do I win the prize or what?

Yes, we have opinions - and I'm giving you mine and I'm using rational arguments to support it.

I'm not going to agree with you unil what you're saying makes sense.

As for "gameplay horizon" those are two words I assume you understand. I assume you understand what gameplay is and what a horizon is.

A horizon is what you look towards - and in this case, it's about how many options you have as a gamer. The wider the horizon - the more options.

That's not power and it's not progression, however.

As for you telling me what is "true" - are you seriously telling yourself that represents a convincing argument? Because then you'll be very, very disappointed.

I don't let others dictate truth, sorry.

If you can't rationalise your point - you will fail to convince.

Okay.  Congratulations on being 37!

My point in saying my age wasn't to win a pissing contest.  My point was to illustrate that in 26 years of being involved in the industry in one form or another, I have never heard a game developer, publisher, marketer, no one, use the term "gameplay horizon" to describe anything about a game or a concept within the game.  When the gaming industry absorbs this as a common concept that professionals use as a standard for conveying a specific element within a game... then I'll accept this as a term from you.  Unfortunately... they don't use this term as far as I am aware, and 26 years is a long time to go without ever hearing it, especially when you stay current on this industry like I do.

Because of this, I have to assume you're just making it up in your own domain of language processing.  My issue with it is that no one else on this earth uses that process.  They use another process.  This process is called a standard.  Horizontal Progression is a standard within that process.  Gameplay Horizon is not.

Yes, I understand what the words mean when they are apart.  What I don't understand is how you put these two words together and expect me to come to the conclusion that what I am talking about... is actually that, when what I am talking about is actually what I called it, justified by the fact that what I called it is an industry standard term.  I don't understand gameplay horizon, because unlike Horizontal Progression... gameplay horizon isn't an actual term used within the industry.

I'm not rationalizing anything to you.  It's already been rationalized by the industry that coined the term.  I'm using the term properly to explain an idea about what I think MMO's need more of.  I used the term Horizontal Progression, knowing what it meant, and assuming others knew what it meant, since it's an industry standard term that means exactly how I am using it in my explanation.

I bet you're going to tell me that "volumetric fog" and "dynamic lighting" don't exist, next.  Instead, what they actually are is "cloudy mass of game mystery" and "bright exclamation mark of simulated vision."

- My opinion was about how the industry standard term "Horizontal Progression" should be applied in an MMO.  Your opinion is that "Horizontal Progression" doesn't actually exist.

- I gave you the definitions to the industry standard term Horizontal Progression, and explained how they make sense according to those REAL dictionary definitions.  You gave me a made up term that no one has ever heard of before, by applying your own interpretation of the definitions to the words that make up that term.

- My use of the industry standard term Horizontal Progression is not an opinion.  The idea to better utilize the concept within the MMO is.  Your opinion is that I am wrong because the industry standard term Horizontal Progression doesn't actually exist... it's actually a made up word gameplay horizon.

- And your final claim is that you are more rational with your conclusion.

Alright.... we're done here.

I'm sorry, but because horizontal progression has become trendy in the industry - it doesn't make your understanding of it logical or rational.

For every buzzword out there - there will be different ways of perceiving it and using it.

"Immersion" is another buzzword that means many things to many people.

If you need the industry to hold your hand before you can accept the use of words describing gameplay concepts, then you're right - we're done here.

I can't provide that, as I don't really care about industry standards.

I care about logic and rational arguments when having a debate - and you can't provide that.

Have fun ;)

You can't have a debate without standards.  This is why a dictionary exists in the first place.  All it is is a book full of standards.  This is why people in this world go to great lengths to find the meaning of a word.  Words are symbols by which we infer meaning.  These words are in and of themselves, standards.  The English language you are using to write to me uses standards.  You use these because it is already understood... with these standards, we may communicate.

An industry standard is a symbol created to convey a specific concept within that industry.  "Pipeline" is a term in many industries used to describe the nature by which production of a product is managed within a company.  This pipeline can implement different strategies, but it never deviates from what the term means.  Going from one industry or company to another, you carry this terminology with you.  This creates a standard within said industry.  It isn't created because it is "trendy."  Also, the very fact that it is a "standard" implies that it has one accepted meaning within that industry.  What you perceive it to mean doesn't matter.  All that matters is what the standard means.  That's why it's a standard.

Your refusal to use these standards neither means anything in relation to the quality of the standard, nor to the integrity of people who use it within the industry.  All it means is you choose not to cooperate with people who would otherwise probably love to work with you.  The only problem here, is you.

Communication is the backbone to every successful team endeavor.  Building a game is a team endeavor.  Standards are created so that the team may express bigger ideals to their team mates, in a few short words or by use of an acronym.  This creates a more efficient method of communicating.  This means that the team now has more time to spend turning a concept of a game into a reality.

I've explained to you what I meant with the term.  I don't use the words because they are trendy.  I use them because they make sense to me.  I've explained as best I can how they make sense to me by the very definition of the words within the term.  I also used the term because when I use the it, most people who understand why standards are used in the first place aren't completely lost by what it means - because of the standard.  I chose not to hate the word because of some juvenile hipster ideal of conformity.  I use it simply as a tool to communicate with people who like being involved in collaborative efforts.

A discussion... is a collaborative effort.  I would love to use your word for what you are talking about... but your definition of that word is not defining what I am actually talking about, and I disagree with you when you say that the industry standard that already exists, which I used, doesn't actually exist.  Since you don't want to use industry standards for juvenile reasons, not only do I not want to collaborate with you further, but I don't think anyone else who actually treats this industry with some respect would either.  Your position on this is petty and unprofessional.

It is apparent, now (as if it weren't before) that the only reason you are arguing about this is because you don't like people using certain words... because you don't like those words.  How much more useless can a person get, to lawyer over something so trivial simply because you don't like it?  I mean, what exactly did you expect to happen here, honestly?  That you were somehow going to convince someone that they are wrong.... because you say so?

I'm only asking this, because... seriously... I... I can't believe this.  It blows my mind that someone would behave this way.  A 37 year old, no less.  Seriously dude... I've spent all night trying to have a conversation with you about something, and you've been nothing but a child about it.

  DKLond

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 580

2/17/14 7:32:41 AM#50
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by DKLond
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by DKLond
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by DKLond
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by DKLond

Here, this is the literal definition of the word: progression.  Yes, the definition you are applying to it is in there.  So is the one I am applying it.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/progression?s=t

 

You're relating it to a succession in quantities.

I'm relating it to a passive of successively from one member to the next.

These definitions have the word successively.  This is an adverb which describes how something is ordered.  The root of the word is successive.  Here is the definition for it:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/succession

 

This word relates to order.  Let's look that word up.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/order?s=t

 

Progression does not just mean more power.  It does mean that - yes.  But it also has other meanings.  It can simply mean moving from one spot to another dependening upon how things are organized.

You can organize something based on the amount of power it generates - vertical progression.

You can organize it based on the color it has - vanity - has no function in relative terms.

You can organize it based on how it generates power - horizontal progression.

You can also organize it based on how the power generated is used - more horizontal progression

All of these are good things.  They can all be great.  But a game alone they do not make.

It is of my opinion that MMO's need more horizontal progression.  It is progress because when you start the game, you have one manner in which you can generate power.  As your progress, you gain more ways in which to generate power.  This makes you more powerful in the fact that you have more options available at your disposal.  This means the entire game has to be designed around this idea.

The point of leveling up in this sort of game is not to equip a more powerful rifle.  The point is to be able to carry a rifle, and a pistol, and some grenades, and a bullet proof vest.  This is horizontal progression.  One item is just as useful as another.  Metrically speaking - they generate the same amount of power.  But by having more options available, you become more powerful.  Not because you generate more power.  But because you now have more ways in which to distribute and generate that power.  Sometimes a pistol works better.  Sometimes a grenade gets the job done.  Sometimes you want a bullet proof vest.... though to be fair, I don't know when you would ever not want one :P

Real life military tactics revolve around the concept of horizontal progression.  A soldier with more skills is a better soldier.  A soldier with more tools is a better soldier.  Providing a soldier with more of either one or both automatically generates more tactical options.  This makes the soldier's unit more powerful.  Not because they generate more power, but because they have more options in how that power is generated and how to disperse it.

No one is arguing that vertical progression is bad.  I am simply saying that horizontal progression is progression if you DESIGN THE WHOLE GAME around it being progress.  "Hey, awesome - I couldn't carry grenades before.  Now I can.  This is cool.  I feel like my guy is becoming more powerful and that I am progressing in this game."

I understand completely this is about video games.  Bringing real life scenarios into this is to help you understand what I am talking about, because generally speaking, people relate better to things that are real.  I'm talking about a principle - not the actual thing.

Something that generates an advantage in a video game is a vague statement that could literally mean anything.  Having a powerful rifle is an advantage.  Having grenades is an advantage.  Having both is an even bigger advantage, even if the other person has a more powerful rifle than you do.  It's all in whether or not the game is designed to take advantage of a horizontal progression.  The point that makes it progress is the fact that you get to use this other thing, when before, you couldn't.

Geez... you're making a very simple thing to be overly complicated.

Looking at that post and your last sentence is kinda amusing.

I'm the one making it overly complicated? Ok ;)

Yes, a soldier with more skills is a better soldier. A better soldier is a more powerful soldier. Giving him a power that's better in a specific situation makes him more powerful - which is vertical progression.

It's really very simple. Once again - if you give something that makes them more powerful - you're giving them VERTICAL progression. ALL progression is vertical.

If you add fishing to an MMO - that's not giving a player PROGRESSION. That's adding to the gameplay HORIZON. However, WITHIN that specific activity - you can have PROGRESSION - as in the player can get BETTER at fishing. As in, he's going to be better at fishing than someone who hasn't progressed.

Progression is becoming BETTER - moving FORWARD - it's becoming more POWERFUL.

"True" horizontal progression is an ILLUSION - because it would mean giving players powers that are each identical in power - which CAN NOT HAPPEN in a world controlled by binary numbers and math.

If something was truly identical - it wouldn't represent any kind of progression, horizontal or otherwise.

I think we're going in circles, at this point - don't you?

By all means, if you consider fishing and housing progression - then that's fine - I don't.

If you think giving a player more powers is not vertical progression (MORE powerful because of more choice) - fine, I don't.

HOWEVER:

We essentially agree. MMOs need a wider gameplay horizon. They don't need horizontal progression - because it doesn't exist.

You're obviously not going to get this.  I've given you the clear definitions and I've explained this as simply as I possibly can.

If horizontal progression doesn't exist... then neither would vertical progression.  It would just be... progress.  We divide this concept into categories for a reason.  They are words used to describe how the progress is made in a conceptual expression.  They are adjectives - they give meaning and more clarity to the noun.  These are standard industry terms.  You saying "horizontal progression" doesn't exist is like saying the word "horizontal" doesn't exist.  It's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

What the hell is gameplay horizon?  I'm 31 years old.  I've been playing video games since I was 5 years old.  My first game ever was Super Mario Brothers on the NES.  The second game I ever played was Tiger Heli.  I have never, not one time, in all my life, heard the term "gameplay horizon."  Seriously dude... are you just making this crap up as you go?

It doesn't matter what you "think".  It matters what is.  You're telling me what you personally consider to be true, and I'm telling you what actually IS true.

We're done here, I think.  I know I am.

 

[mod edit - snipped for  overall forum readability]

[mod edit] I'm explaining to you why "horizontal progression" doesn't actually exist. The TERM exists, yeah, but it's not actual progression. It's an illusion of progression.

I've explained that to you over and over again, and you've utterly failed to refute it.

You keep pretending "horizontal progression" exists as actual progression because developers use the term, as if developers are implicitly capable of no fault and can't be logically and semantically in the wrong.

GW2 developers have been trying to sell the concept since they started marketing the game, and yet they've failed to rationalise the concept.

[mod edit]

Again, if you consider fishing and housing horizontal progression, fine, I don't.

Again, if you consider giving more powers of a similar "strength" to a soldier horizontal progression, fine, I don't.

I call the first part of the gameplay horizon, and I consider the second vertical progression - because more powers mean more to choose from, and in the end - an advantage to the soldier, making him more efficient in more situations. That's power, that's progression and that's vertical.

[mod edit]

  arieste

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3312

2/17/14 8:50:52 AM#51
Originally posted by MMOExposed
 this game would be better with No character Levels and No Zone Levels

It might also be better with pandas, spaceships and underage argonian strippers.  None of which is relevant.    The game has levels and zones. 

 

As it stands, it's pretty much the only game of this kind that let's you experience the entire world at same level by having the 50+ gameplay.   

"I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

- Raph Koster

Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2
Currently Playing: EQ2, Firefall

  Vapors

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/16/10
Posts: 408

2/17/14 8:53:43 AM#52
And again I can only say, people keep forgetting the name says Elder Scrolls, so it will be atleast abit like the previous Elder Scrolls games, which had character levels.
  Caldrin

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 4390

2/17/14 8:56:47 AM#53
Originally posted by MMOExposed

The level rails make the gane feel more themepark than it needs to be.

 

This is a themepark MMORPG..

My 3D models
http://dragon3d.webs.com/

  Fusion

Old School

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 1395

2/17/14 9:08:36 AM#54
Originally posted by DeserttFoxx

Levels are a balance gate, so you can control when power is unlocked, otherwise why would you ever get a lesser skill might as well always get the best.

This is indeed the point

As for the zone levels..no elder scrolls has this feature, in single player elder scrolls game everything just levels with you.

This is only true for Oblivion, Morrowind and Skyrim neither had level-scaling content

To answer OP, no, it just wouldn't work. The levels are there to control access to power and limit imbalances.

Currently playing: -

Waiting for: Class4.

Dead and Buried: ESO, NWO, GW2, SWTOR, Darkfall, AO, AC2, Vanguard, CoH/V, EnB, EVE, Neocron, FE, EQ, EQ2, DAoC, FFXI, FFXIV, SWG, WoW, and billions of eastern junks!

  DKLond

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 580

2/17/14 9:23:48 AM#55
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by DKLond
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by DKLond
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by DKLond
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by DKLond
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by DKLond

Here, this is the literal definition of the word: progression.  Yes, the definition you are applying to it is in there.  So is the one I am applying it.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/progression?s=t

 

You're relating it to a succession in quantities.

I'm relating it to a passive of successively from one member to the next.

These definitions have the word successively.  This is an adverb which describes how something is ordered.  The root of the word is successive.  Here is the definition for it:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/succession

 

This word relates to order.  Let's look that word up.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/order?s=t

 

Progression does not just mean more power.  It does mean that - yes.  But it also has other meanings.  It can simply mean moving from one spot to another dependening upon how things are organized.

You can organize something based on the amount of power it generates - vertical progression.

You can organize it based on the color it has - vanity - has no function in relative terms.

You can organize it based on how it generates power - horizontal progression.

You can also organize it based on how the power generated is used - more horizontal progression

All of these are good things.  They can all be great.  But a game alone they do not make.

It is of my opinion that MMO's need more horizontal progression.  It is progress because when you start the game, you have one manner in which you can generate power.  As your progress, you gain more ways in which to generate power.  This makes you more powerful in the fact that you have more options available at your disposal.  This means the entire game has to be designed around this idea.

The point of leveling up in this sort of game is not to equip a more powerful rifle.  The point is to be able to carry a rifle, and a pistol, and some grenades, and a bullet proof vest.  This is horizontal progression.  One item is just as useful as another.  Metrically speaking - they generate the same amount of power.  But by having more options available, you become more powerful.  Not because you generate more power.  But because you now have more ways in which to distribute and generate that power.  Sometimes a pistol works better.  Sometimes a grenade gets the job done.  Sometimes you want a bullet proof vest.... though to be fair, I don't know when you would ever not want one :P

Real life military tactics revolve around the concept of horizontal progression.  A soldier with more skills is a better soldier.  A soldier with more tools is a better soldier.  Providing a soldier with more of either one or both automatically generates more tactical options.  This makes the soldier's unit more powerful.  Not because they generate more power, but because they have more options in how that power is generated and how to disperse it.

No one is arguing that vertical progression is bad.  I am simply saying that horizontal progression is progression if you DESIGN THE WHOLE GAME around it being progress.  "Hey, awesome - I couldn't carry grenades before.  Now I can.  This is cool.  I feel like my guy is becoming more powerful and that I am progressing in this game."

I understand completely this is about video games.  Bringing real life scenarios into this is to help you understand what I am talking about, because generally speaking, people relate better to things that are real.  I'm talking about a principle - not the actual thing.

Something that generates an advantage in a video game is a vague statement that could literally mean anything.  Having a powerful rifle is an advantage.  Having grenades is an advantage.  Having both is an even bigger advantage, even if the other person has a more powerful rifle than you do.  It's all in whether or not the game is designed to take advantage of a horizontal progression.  The point that makes it progress is the fact that you get to use this other thing, when before, you couldn't.

Geez... you're making a very simple thing to be overly complicated.

Looking at that post and your last sentence is kinda amusing.

I'm the one making it overly complicated? Ok ;)

Yes, a soldier with more skills is a better soldier. A better soldier is a more powerful soldier. Giving him a power that's better in a specific situation makes him more powerful - which is vertical progression.

It's really very simple. Once again - if you give something that makes them more powerful - you're giving them VERTICAL progression. ALL progression is vertical.

If you add fishing to an MMO - that's not giving a player PROGRESSION. That's adding to the gameplay HORIZON. However, WITHIN that specific activity - you can have PROGRESSION - as in the player can get BETTER at fishing. As in, he's going to be better at fishing than someone who hasn't progressed.

Progression is becoming BETTER - moving FORWARD - it's becoming more POWERFUL.

"True" horizontal progression is an ILLUSION - because it would mean giving players powers that are each identical in power - which CAN NOT HAPPEN in a world controlled by binary numbers and math.

If something was truly identical - it wouldn't represent any kind of progression, horizontal or otherwise.

I think we're going in circles, at this point - don't you?

By all means, if you consider fishing and housing progression - then that's fine - I don't.

If you think giving a player more powers is not vertical progression (MORE powerful because of more choice) - fine, I don't.

HOWEVER:

We essentially agree. MMOs need a wider gameplay horizon. They don't need horizontal progression - because it doesn't exist.

You're obviously not going to get this.  I've given you the clear definitions and I've explained this as simply as I possibly can.

If horizontal progression doesn't exist... then neither would vertical progression.  It would just be... progress.  We divide this concept into categories for a reason.  They are words used to describe how the progress is made in a conceptual expression.  They are adjectives - they give meaning and more clarity to the noun.  These are standard industry terms.  You saying "horizontal progression" doesn't exist is like saying the word "horizontal" doesn't exist.  It's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

What the hell is gameplay horizon?  I'm 31 years old.  I've been playing video games since I was 5 years old.  My first game ever was Super Mario Brothers on the NES.  The second game I ever played was Tiger Heli.  I have never, not one time, in all my life, heard the term "gameplay horizon."  Seriously dude... are you just making this crap up as you go?

It doesn't matter what you "think".  It matters what is.  You're telling me what you personally consider to be true, and I'm telling you what actually IS true.

We're done here, I think.  I know I am.

I'm 37 years old and my first game was a horse racing game with letters representing horses on the ZX-81 - so do I win the prize or what?

Yes, we have opinions - and I'm giving you mine and I'm using rational arguments to support it.

I'm not going to agree with you unil what you're saying makes sense.

As for "gameplay horizon" those are two words I assume you understand. I assume you understand what gameplay is and what a horizon is.

A horizon is what you look towards - and in this case, it's about how many options you have as a gamer. The wider the horizon - the more options.

That's not power and it's not progression, however.

As for you telling me what is "true" - are you seriously telling yourself that represents a convincing argument? Because then you'll be very, very disappointed.

I don't let others dictate truth, sorry.

If you can't rationalise your point - you will fail to convince.

Okay.  Congratulations on being 37!

My point in saying my age wasn't to win a pissing contest.  My point was to illustrate that in 26 years of being involved in the industry in one form or another, I have never heard a game developer, publisher, marketer, no one, use the term "gameplay horizon" to describe anything about a game or a concept within the game.  When the gaming industry absorbs this as a common concept that professionals use as a standard for conveying a specific element within a game... then I'll accept this as a term from you.  Unfortunately... they don't use this term as far as I am aware, and 26 years is a long time to go without ever hearing it, especially when you stay current on this industry like I do.

Because of this, I have to assume you're just making it up in your own domain of language processing.  My issue with it is that no one else on this earth uses that process.  They use another process.  This process is called a standard.  Horizontal Progression is a standard within that process.  Gameplay Horizon is not.

Yes, I understand what the words mean when they are apart.  What I don't understand is how you put these two words together and expect me to come to the conclusion that what I am talking about... is actually that, when what I am talking about is actually what I called it, justified by the fact that what I called it is an industry standard term.  I don't understand gameplay horizon, because unlike Horizontal Progression... gameplay horizon isn't an actual term used within the industry.

I'm not rationalizing anything to you.  It's already been rationalized by the industry that coined the term.  I'm using the term properly to explain an idea about what I think MMO's need more of.  I used the term Horizontal Progression, knowing what it meant, and assuming others knew what it meant, since it's an industry standard term that means exactly how I am using it in my explanation.

I bet you're going to tell me that "volumetric fog" and "dynamic lighting" don't exist, next.  Instead, what they actually are is "cloudy mass of game mystery" and "bright exclamation mark of simulated vision."

- My opinion was about how the industry standard term "Horizontal Progression" should be applied in an MMO.  Your opinion is that "Horizontal Progression" doesn't actually exist.

- I gave you the definitions to the industry standard term Horizontal Progression, and explained how they make sense according to those REAL dictionary definitions.  You gave me a made up term that no one has ever heard of before, by applying your own interpretation of the definitions to the words that make up that term.

- My use of the industry standard term Horizontal Progression is not an opinion.  The idea to better utilize the concept within the MMO is.  Your opinion is that I am wrong because the industry standard term Horizontal Progression doesn't actually exist... it's actually a made up word gameplay horizon.

- And your final claim is that you are more rational with your conclusion.

Alright.... we're done here.

I'm sorry, but because horizontal progression has become trendy in the industry - it doesn't make your understanding of it logical or rational.

For every buzzword out there - there will be different ways of perceiving it and using it.

"Immersion" is another buzzword that means many things to many people.

If you need the industry to hold your hand before you can accept the use of words describing gameplay concepts, then you're right - we're done here.

I can't provide that, as I don't really care about industry standards.

I care about logic and rational arguments when having a debate - and you can't provide that.

Have fun ;)

You can't have a debate without standards.  This is why a dictionary exists in the first place.  All it is is a book full of standards.  This is why people in this world go to great lengths to find the meaning of a word.  Words are symbols by which we infer meaning.  These words are in and of themselves, standards.  The English language you are using to write to me uses standards.  You use these because it is already understood... with these standards, we may communicate.

An industry standard is a symbol created to convey a specific concept within that industry.  "Pipeline" is a term in many industries used to describe the nature by which production of a product is managed within a company.  This pipeline can implement different strategies, but it never deviates from what the term means.  Going from one industry or company to another, you carry this terminology with you.  This creates a standard within said industry.  It isn't created because it is "trendy."

Your refusal to use these standards neither means anything in relation to the quality of the standard, nor to the integrity of people who use it within the industry.  All it means is you choose not to cooperate with people who would otherwise probably love to work with you.  The only problem here, is you.

Communication is the backbone to every successful team endeavor.  Building a game is a team endeavor.  Standards are created so that the team may express bigger ideals to their team mates, in a few short words or by use of an acronym.  This creates a more efficient method of communicating.  This means that the team now has more time to spend turning a concept of a game into a reality.

I've explained to you what I meant with the term.  I don't use the words because they are trendy.  I use them because they make sense to me.  I've explained as best I can how they make sense to me by the very definition of the words within the term.  I also used the term because when I use the it, most people who understand why standards are used in the first place aren't completely lost by what it means - because of the standard.  I chose not to hate the word because of some juvenile hipster ideal of conformity.  I use it simply as a tool to communicate with people who like being involved in collaborative efforts.

A discussion... is a collaborative effort.  I would love to use your word for what you are talking about... but your definition of that word is not defining what I am actually talking about, and I disagree with you when you say that the industry standard that already exists, which I used, doesn't actually exist.  Since you don't want to use industry standards for juvenile reasons, not only do I not want to collaborate with you further, but I don't think anyone else who actually treats this industry with some respect would either.  Your position on this is petty and unprofessional.

It is apparent, now (as if it weren't before) that the only reason you are arguing about this is because you don't like people using certain words... because you don't like those words.  How much more useless can a person get, to lawyer over something so trivial simply because you don't like it?  I mean, what exactly did you expect to happen here, honestly?  That you were somehow going to convince someone that they are wrong.... because you say so?

I'm only asking this, because... seriously... I... I can't believe this.  It blows my mind that someone would behave this way.  A 37 year old, no less.  Seriously dude... I've spent all night trying to have a conversation with you about something, and you've been nothing but a child about it.

Oh, I get it. You're one of those people who can only consider others children when they disagree with you and you can't accept that they look at concepts differently. I see.

No, I'm not being a child. I'm explaining to you why "horizontal progression" doesn't actually exist. The TERM exists, yeah, but it's not actual progression. It's an illusion of progression.

I've explained that to you over and over again, and you've utterly failed to refute it.

You keep pretending "horizontal progression" exists as actual progression because developers use the term, as if developers are implicitly capable of no fault and can't be logically and semantically in the wrong.

GW2 developers have been trying to sell the concept since they started marketing the game, and yet they've failed to rationalise the concept.

I don't know why something so simple seems to be so hard for you to understand, I really don't.

But I think I'm done repeating myself.

Again, if you consider fishing and housing horizontal progression, fine, I don't.

Again, if you consider giving more powers of a similar "strength" to a soldier horizontal progression, fine, I don't.

I call the first part of the gameplay horizon, and I consider the second vertical progression - because more powers mean more to choose from, and in the end - an advantage to the soldier, making him more efficient in more situations. That's power, that's progression and that's vertical.

If that's being a child in your eyes, that's quite ok with me. I don't agree, but I really don't mind.

 

Let's get this right.  I'm telling you straight up - so try not to twist what I am saying.  Your entire counter argument is this, as far as I can understand it.  You're welcome to adjust it if you are so inclined:

"I disagree with you because the word "progression" can only mean "vertical" by definition because it is an increase, but only when you ignore everything else "progression" by definition actually means, but I'll ignore that part, because my argument only works when you ignore that part, and because this other term that I made up has nothing to do with this discussion." - THIS is why I disagree with you.  This, sir, doesn't make sense to me.  I blame you for not explaining how this is supposed to make sense.

 

You're a child because you think an industry standard term with a clear definition that many people within the industry understand and use is too "trendy" and is thereby non-sense to you as a result.  Only a shallow child would actually care about something like that.  Adults would be too busy using it to communicate everything I have said about it to their colleagues and team members, not because they love the word, but because it's simply a tool to use in a collaboration, and everyone pertinent knows what it means.

Good luck with your gameplay horizon.

No, progression can mean many things - but it can only BE vertical - as in "power" can only be gained or lost. It can't go "sideways" no matter how much the industry is making you think so. You need to think for yourself a bit, if you're going to understand this relatively simple point.

As for the whole "shallow child" insult you keep using, I should probably tell you that I don't take insults from strangers very seriously. They rarely make much of an impression, you know? Usually, it happens when people run out of logical arguments.

So, I look at arguments and if they're rational, I acknowledge them - even if I don't agree with them. Your "argument" has been that the industry is telling you that there is such a thing as horizontal progression, and so obviously the industry is right  and only "shallow children" would disagree. Apparently the industry gets to define truth and represent ultimate objectivity in your world. Obviously, you know all about what the "industry" has said when it comes to horizontal progression - and you know for a fact that everyone in the entire industry has the exact same perception of the concept as you do. Sure ;)

So, not only have you resorted to personal insults, you've failed to argue your case rationally - and on top of that, you claim to know for a fact what the entire industry believes to be true about horizontal progression.

I find it pretty amusing that you expect me to take you seriously at this point.

Anyway, you seem to be a fan of getting the last word - so I'll leave you to it ;)

  nerovipus32

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 2774

2/17/14 9:27:08 AM#56
Originally posted by MMOExposed

this game would be better with No character Levels and No Zone Levels

 

This would make the game more adventurous to make our own

Adventure.

The level rails make the gane feel more themepark than it needs to be.

 

Dont get me wrong. Levels can stay for thr skills and skill point gain. 

 

But remove the charactet levels and Zones.

 

The Singleplayer game gets away with levels because the world scales to the one player and not hundreads of players.  For a single game world.

 

Get rid of levels and make all the world a big world with no start and endpoint defined.

I am sure if this was the case you'd make a different post about how the game has no content. I understand you're just here to make controversial posts to  garner yourself some attention.

  Notimeforbs

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/28/13
Posts: 324

2/17/14 11:02:36 AM#57
Originally posted by DKLond
 

No, progression can mean many things - but it can only BE vertical - as in "power" can only be gained or lost. It can't go "sideways" no matter how much the industry is making you think so. You need to think for yourself a bit, if you're going to understand this relatively simple point.

As for the whole "shallow child" insult you keep using, I should probably tell you that I don't take insults from strangers very seriously. They rarely make much of an impression, you know? Usually, it happens when people run out of logical arguments.

So, I look at arguments and if they're rational, I acknowledge them - even if I don't agree with them. Your "argument" has been that the industry is telling you that there is such a thing as horizontal progression, and so obviously the industry is right  and only "shallow children" would disagree. Apparently the industry gets to define truth and represent ultimate objectivity in your world. Obviously, you know all about what the "industry" has said when it comes to horizontal progression - and you know for a fact that everyone in the entire industry has the exact same perception of the concept as you do. Sure ;)

So, not only have you resorted to personal insults, you've failed to argue your case rationally - and on top of that, you claim to know for a fact what the entire industry believes to be true about horizontal progression.

I find it pretty amusing that you expect me to take you seriously at this point.

Anyway, you seem to be a fan of getting the last word - so I'll leave you to it ;)

First of all... you insulted me way before I called you childish.  So eat your own bullshit on that one, bud.  I bent over backwards post after post to try and answer your question - to clarify what I was talking about.  And you had the audacity to repay that with "you're brainwashed and stupid."  Honestly - what kind of a person with a sincere outlook does that?  I don't even care if you agree with me... but don't call me brainwashed and stupid - shit....  

I just wish you had at least attempted to understand what I was talking about instead of closing off over something childish and unproductive.  Unfortunately, I close off to adults when they behave like children, because frankly... I expect better from them.  I gave you every opportunity to provide me with a better reason than "your word is trendy thus I think you're stupid" to disagree with me.  I really had hoped you had... something... that I can at least work with.  I just can't work with an insult as an opposing argument.

I don't expect children to take anything seriously.  I guess I expected too much from you.

We both lose, here.

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 6298

 
OP  2/17/14 11:10:52 AM#58
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by DKLond

Here, this is the literal definition of the word: progression.  Yes, the definition you are applying to it is in there.  So is the one I am applying it.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/progression?s=t

 

You're relating it to a succession in quantities.

I'm relating it to a passive of successively from one member to the next.

These definitions have the word successively.  This is an adverb which describes how something is ordered.  The root of the word is successive.  Here is the definition for it:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/succession

 

This word relates to order.  Let's look that word up.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/order?s=t

 

Progression does not just mean more power.  It does mean that - yes.  But it also has other meanings.  It can simply mean moving from one spot to another dependening upon how things are organized.

You can organize something based on the amount of power it generates - vertical progression.

You can organize it based on the color it has - vanity - has no function in relative terms.

You can organize it based on how it generates power - horizontal progression.

You can also organize it based on how the power generated is used - more horizontal progression

All of these are good things.  They can all be great.  But a game alone they do not make.

It is of my opinion that MMO's need more horizontal progression.  It is progress because when you start the game, you have one manner in which you can generate power.  As your progress, you gain more ways in which to generate power.  This makes you more powerful in the fact that you have more options available at your disposal.  This means the entire game has to be designed around this idea.

The point of leveling up in this sort of game is not to equip a more powerful rifle.  The point is to be able to carry a rifle, and a pistol, and some grenades, and a bullet proof vest.  This is horizontal progression.  One item is just as useful as another.  Metrically speaking - they generate the same amount of power.  But by having more options available, you become more powerful.  Not because you generate more power.  But because you now have more ways in which to distribute and generate that power.  Sometimes a pistol works better.  Sometimes a grenade gets the job done.  Sometimes you want a bullet proof vest.... though to be fair, I don't know when you would ever not want one :P

Real life military tactics revolve around the concept of horizontal progression.  A soldier with more skills is a better soldier.  A soldier with more tools is a better soldier.  Providing a soldier with more of either one or both automatically generates more tactical options.  This makes the soldier's unit more powerful.  Not because they generate more power, but because they have more options in how that power is generated and how to disperse it.

No one is arguing that vertical progression is bad.  I am simply saying that horizontal progression is progression if you DESIGN THE WHOLE GAME around it being progress.  "Hey, awesome - I couldn't carry grenades before.  Now I can.  This is cool.  I feel like my guy is becoming more powerful and that I am progressing in this game."

I understand completely this is about video games.  Bringing real life scenarios into this is to help you understand what I am talking about, because generally speaking, people relate better to things that are real.  I'm talking about a principle - not the actual thing.

Something that generates an advantage in a video game is a vague statement that could literally mean anything.  Having a powerful rifle is an advantage.  Having grenades is an advantage.  Having both is an even bigger advantage, even if the other person has a more powerful rifle than you do.  It's all in whether or not the game is designed to take advantage of a horizontal progression.  The point that makes it progress is the fact that you get to use this other thing, when before, you couldn't.

Geez... you're making a very simple thing to be overly complicated.

Wow and somebody called me a troll in this thread.

This Notimeforbs person laid it out in words, explaining just what been trying to say for months now.

Had to paint the picture for you, which he/she did and all.

I would have thought this was an alt of mine or something!

  Lord.Bachus

Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8963

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

2/17/14 11:13:45 AM#59

Not this discussion again....  NDA is lifted and things like this will never happen... 

 

Why not accept the main features of the game as what they are, since they are set in stone and will not change anymore, and discuss those things that they actually can change in the six weeks they have still left... or even post release..

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  arieste

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3312

2/17/14 11:40:27 AM#60
Originally posted by MMOExposed

Wow and somebody called me a troll in this thread.

This Notimeforbs person laid it out in words, explaining just what been trying to say for months now.

Had to paint the picture for you, which he/she did and all.

I would have thought this was an alt of mine or something!

Let me ask you, have you played BOTH ESO and TSW?  ESO that is skill-level + character levels vs. TSW which is skills but not character levels.  Did you find TSW's design substantially better because it had no levels?   Or EVE's for that matter?

 

Because it seems to me that you're just posting random stuff with no actual experience with such systems.   What specific MMOs have you enjoyed that had a non-level progression system?

 

I loved TSW and think it had some of the best dungeons and i loved it's freeform system, but at the end of the day even though it had no levels while ESO does, i don't see a massive difference in the feel of the game due to character progression.   (obviously combat and stuff are vastly different).

 

 

"I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

- Raph Koster

Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2
Currently Playing: EQ2, Firefall

4 Pages « 1 2 3 4 » Search