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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » this game would be better with No character Levels and No Zone Levels

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73 posts found
  Notimeforbs

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/13
Posts: 297

2/17/14 12:30:07 AM#21
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by MMOExposed

this game would be better with No character Levels and No Zone Levels

 

This would make the game more adventurous to make our own

Adventure.

How would you go about doing this. Going on your own adventure would require the player to have access in creating content.

I said create your own adventure. as in going into the world, and making your own path to exploring the world, and saving the world. No need for zone rails because the zones arent tied to a level. No need for downscaling like GW2 does since the zones would have no level requirement. Skills for your class can be scattered all over the world along with other new skills to discover, with different ways to unlock them based on your character. So a unique task can be needed for your character compared to another player, in order to unlock skills. So the game would be all about exploring and doing task as you see fit because the game isnt as on rails this way.

Each faction will have a starter new player zone, that teaches and trains players how to play the game before joining the real game world. Players can skip this as well and go to the main world when they feel ready. Here is picture

The level rails make the gane feel more themepark than it needs to be.

 I agree, but there's a form of 'leveling' or progression in any game. It all depends on how the developer designs it.

Thats where the OP comes in. Its an attempt at designing an Elder Scrolls SCMORPG game with a model around adventure on your own terms. The Level Rails wont exist. keep that in mind. Same game world, with no rails, means you can go where you want from start to end.

Dont get me wrong. Levels can stay for thr skills and skill point gain. 

 

But remove the charactet levels and Zones.

 This would require the developer to actually design a game engine specifically for their game. That typically doesn't happen. It's too costly for some of the bigger companies and it takes too much time.

Thats not a change to the game engine. The world is built around a single level. Progression is only from skills/gear/faction. not levels. Levels rail the game world, and makes it feel more like a train rather than a off road truck that can go in any direction it chooses from start to finish. Trains follow the rail in one way or the reverse way.

The Singleplayer game gets away with levels because the world scales to the one player and not hundreads of players.  For a single game world.

 Many single player games have leveling and progression in them. Actually I'm inclined to say most do.

Many Single Player games have Levels, but the game world and design is built around a single player. Never built around a mass of players at once. Levels in Elder Scrolls game never were a problem, since the world scales to your level, and allow you much more freedom in where and when you want to go somewhere. the Difficulty is the only thing that changes. Thats when the progression elements help counter that, which leads to more progression. Levels wasnt the thing to do this.

Get rid of levels and make all the world a big world with no start and endpoint defined.

 Better implementation and design of a game is what you need, not removal of 'leveling'.

Go back and read the red

 

 

I actually agree with what you're saying.  The problem is what you're talking about still has progression in it in some respect.  You're talking about horizontal progression.  Your powers never actually get more powerful; you just get more powers.

The problem here is that in MMO's they typically use a Percent Chance to Hit sort of mechanic.  The numbers are being rolled in the background for everything.  Horizontal progression doesn't need to do this, but it can.

I wrote about this earlier in the thread.  You should give it a look-see.  It might not be exactly what you had in mind, but it might help you out a little, I think.

  DKLond

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 543

2/17/14 12:37:46 AM#22

The whole concept of horizontal progression is an illusion that's been perpetuated so much since GW2 that I'm sick of hearing about it.

Progression, as a concept, means you get BETTER - you EVOLVE. That doesn't happen with horizontal progression.

Telling people that they're progressing when they are, in fact, stagnating - is only going to work for a limited time.

Oh, there will always be a few people who might spend years realising this simple truth - but the majority will eventually realise that horizontal progression isn't that much fun - and that they've been duped into believing that evolution without evolution can actually happen.

  DAS1337

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/28/07
Posts: 2379

2/17/14 12:42:54 AM#23
Originally posted by Damedius

It wouldn't work in an mmo.

Content has to scale to your level to make it challenging and to allow you wander wherever you want to go.

Each player or group would have to have their own instanced world to play in for this to work.

It has already worked in several MMO's.  

 

People use their brain and avoid mobs that are too tough for them.  They find the areas that challenge them appropriately.  

 

But no, we can't ask people to use their brain any more.  It's too hard!

 

I'm fine with the levels.  Not thrilled with how the world is designed though.  

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5979

 
OP  2/17/14 12:44:15 AM#24
Originally posted by DKLond

The whole concept of horizontal progression is an illusion that's been perpetuated so much since GW2 that I'm sick of hearing about it.

Progression, as a concept, means you get BETTER - you EVOLVE. That doesn't happen with horizontal progression.

Telling people that they're progressing when they are, in fact, stagnating - is only going to work for a limited time.

Oh, there will always be a few people who might spend years realising this simple truth - but the majority will eventually realise that horizontal progression isn't that much fun - and that they've been duped into believing that evolution without evolution can actually happen.

GW2 is not a good example, because for starters, it has levels.

 

and for laters it was promised to have horizontal progression, like many other things promised, but it really never had that to began with.

  DKLond

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 543

2/17/14 12:49:20 AM#25
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by DKLond

The whole concept of horizontal progression is an illusion that's been perpetuated so much since GW2 that I'm sick of hearing about it.

Progression, as a concept, means you get BETTER - you EVOLVE. That doesn't happen with horizontal progression.

Telling people that they're progressing when they are, in fact, stagnating - is only going to work for a limited time.

Oh, there will always be a few people who might spend years realising this simple truth - but the majority will eventually realise that horizontal progression isn't that much fun - and that they've been duped into believing that evolution without evolution can actually happen.

GW2 is not a good example, because for starters, it has levels.

 

and for laters it was promised to have horizontal progression, like many other things promised, but it really never had that to began with.

Sure it had horizontal "progression". You got a ton of skins and christmas gifts wrapped in bright shiny paper - that didn't actually make you more powerful in any tangible way.

People are still playing the game, so I guess more of them enjoy stagnating than I would have guessed. I just wish they'd stop calling it progression.

  Notimeforbs

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/13
Posts: 297

2/17/14 12:55:03 AM#26
Originally posted by DKLond

The whole concept of horizontal progression is an illusion that's been perpetuated so much since GW2 that I'm sick of hearing about it.

Progression, as a concept, means you get BETTER - you EVOLVE. That doesn't happen with horizontal progression.

Telling people that they're progressing when they are, in fact, stagnating - is only going to work for a limited time.

Oh, there will always be a few people who might spend years realising this simple truth - but the majority will eventually realise that horizontal progression isn't that much fun - and that they've been duped into believing that evolution without evolution can actually happen.

GW2 doesn't have horizontal progression.  It has vertical progression.  The skills you use don't even matter.  All that matters are the stats that make the skills stronger.  And that's progressed through your gear.  You can throw a million skills in a system and call it horizontal all you want.  But if the skills only respond to the fact that you have larger stats that grow over time for one reason or another.... that's a vertical progression system.

This is D&D all over again.  The only difference is that the base power is in your stats that you control, and not the gear or the spell.  The spell is powerless without the stat.  The attack is powerless without the stat.  In MMO's, the developer controls the stats with the gear, instead of putting the option in your own hands.  This is for balance purposes.  It's the same thing all day long, and this is exactly what GW2 does.

Horizontal progression gives you the ability to choose between left, right, up, and down, instead of being made to go left.  It gives you an even more sense of option than a predefined pattern of vertical progression - which REQUIRES an illusion to work in the first place.

Plenty of great games have been made with a horizontal progression system.  The Legend of Zelda is one of them.  Both are great systems to build a game with.  But I think an MMO would prosper better with a horizontal progression approach.  And just because ArenaNet says they have horizontal progression... doesn't mean they actually do.  In fact... I don't even know how that is even a factor.

 

  Ryoshi1

Novice Member

Joined: 1/21/14
Posts: 141

2/17/14 1:14:43 AM#27
I guess he wants to play the sims mmo :D
  angriel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 43

2/17/14 1:19:38 AM#28
I think I know what the OP tries to do here. That's only the beginning. In the next post he will declare that the game would be better with no zones and no characters.
  BlackBerryTea

Novice Member

Joined: 1/05/13
Posts: 3

2/17/14 1:20:31 AM#29

Sounds more like someone wants to go back to the old Ultima Online days.

I would like that somehow ^^

But really as far as i was able tp check it out i dont think that system would work that well for ESO. Justa  feeling.

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

2/17/14 1:31:36 AM#30
Originally posted by Damedius

It wouldn't work in an mmo.

Content has to scale to your level to make it challenging and to allow you wander wherever you want to go.

Each player or group would have to have their own instanced world to play in for this to work.

Content doesn't in itself needs to scale to make a game challenging, that's the easy/common route to design. But it's done as games usually revolve by some progression means to feel like it's progression. EvE doesn't have levels, it uses skills as a measure of progression. Just like a crafting MMO can use titles as a means to show progression (e.g., Apprentice>Journeyman>Expert>Master>Grandmaster).

 

Games that still use environment gating via levels are behind the times, because challenge can also be more than creature/NPC levels. It can be skill based; feat based; attunement; even a rare key find, to open an area of exploration that's walled off. I love adventuring in the very dangerous zones as a lowbie to find the highest mountains to climb (I bypassed the story lines in Skyrim, to just do that as fun), not wait for the highest level so the mobs would scale to my level. That's not fun to me, nor a challenge.

  Notimeforbs

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/13
Posts: 297

2/17/14 2:05:01 AM#31
Originally posted by DKLond
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by DKLond
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by DKLond

The whole concept of horizontal progression is an illusion that's been perpetuated so much since GW2 that I'm sick of hearing about it.

Progression, as a concept, means you get BETTER - you EVOLVE. That doesn't happen with horizontal progression.

Telling people that they're progressing when they are, in fact, stagnating - is only going to work for a limited time.

Oh, there will always be a few people who might spend years realising this simple truth - but the majority will eventually realise that horizontal progression isn't that much fun - and that they've been duped into believing that evolution without evolution can actually happen.

GW2 doesn't have horizontal progression.  It has vertical progression.  The skills you use don't even matter.  All that matters are the stats that make the skills stronger.  And that's progressed through your gear.  You can throw a million skills in a system and call it horizontal all you want.  But if the skills only respond to the fact that you have larger stats that grow over time for one reason or another.... that's a vertical progression system.

This is D&D all over again.  The only difference is that the base power is in your stats that you control, and not the gear or the spell.  The spell is powerless without the stat.  The attack is powerless without the stat.  In MMO's, the developer controls the stats with the gear, instead of putting the option in your own hands.  This is for balance purposes.  It's the same thing all day long, and this is exactly what GW2 does.

Horizontal progression gives you the ability to choose between left, right, up, and down, instead of being made to go left.  It gives you an even more sense of option than a predefined pattern of vertical progression - which REQUIRES an illusion to work in the first place.

Plenty of great games have been made with a horizontal progression system.  The Legend of Zelda is one of them.  Both are great systems to build a game with.  But I think an MMO would prosper better with a horizontal progression approach.  And just because ArenaNet says they have horizontal progression... doesn't mean they actually do.  In fact... I don't even know how that is even a factor.

 

Are you agreeing with me on purpose, or is it that you have to be the "smart" one?

Any kind of actual progression is vertical - and there's no way to provide balanced "horizontally oriented" skills without making them identical. This means that one skill WILL be better than another for a specific purpose. So, a new skill is going to be vertical. Up for better and down for worse. There is no "the same" - it's an illusion.

However, GW2 provides a ton of what developers call horizontal progression - which includes weapon and armor skins.

Now, I wouldn't call that progression - because it's not - but they managed to sell the players on the concept.

The entire concept is an illusion - or a dream if you prefer.

It might work in theory - but since math is driving everything in the end, it can never work in practice.

 

Okay, let's look at this like we're 5th graders.

In a standard grid - you have an X axis and a Y axis.  They are both numbered 1-5.

If you start at zero and move up one spot - that is called vertical progression.  You are now at 1.  If you move again, you would be at 2.  This is called progression.

If you go back to zero, and move to the right one spot - that is called horizontal progression.  Hey, look at that - you're at 1 again.  If you go one more spot, you're at 2.  This is called progression.

What do you know?  Progression exists in both axes.  The difference is in what these measurements provide value for.  You need to think more abstractly in order to understand horizontal progression.  Yeah, yeah, I know - an illusion.  The difference is abstract things become realities all the time.  Everything starts as an abstract - an idea.  All things that exist were first an idea.  This is no different.

You're problem is that your looking at the MMO as it currently is, and attributing those qualities it presents, as if they translate exactly the same way in a horizontal progression game.

The whole design would have to change to accommodate the progression system.  What - did you think leveling up existed in a vacuum - that it really didn't affect every design decision about the game?  MANY games have gone under ENORMOUS amounts of redesign based on this one thing alone: How does the player "level up"?

Legend of Zelda lets you level up by finding new relics to use in the world.  Chrono Trigger gives you stat progression and powers affect by it.  Both are great games.  Both are gaming classics.  No one is arguing that vertical progression sucks.  All I'm saying is horizontal progression, which exists whether you can understand it or not, would be better suited for an MMO.

Yes, I know there's a horizontal direction on a grid, but that's not power progression. Progression is about power, nothing more, nothing less.

You know I'm right.

Whether you attain that power by finding a relic or gaining a level, it's still power progression.

That's what people want - that's what's fun.

People don't want to stagnate in terms of power. It's human nature to grow and evolve - and there's absolutely no way around it.

Saying horizontal progression exists is not enough, you have to prove that it exists - and you can't, because progression is vertical by nature. It can never be horizontal.

I'm sorry, but that's really all there is to it.

Unfortunate? No, not really. I don't mind vertical progression. I mind the grind, the repetition, the tedium. But I enjoy evolving in my roleplaying games. I enjoy progression.

There's nothing wrong with it.

Lol.. dude... I never said anything was wrong with it in the first place.

Explain to me how learning to draw, and then learning to write, and then learning to sing, and then learning to play basketball, and then learning to swim, and then learning to speak to an audience, and then learning to do back flips, and then learning to climb a mountain, and then learning to climb a mountain without ropes, and then learning to fly a plane, and then learning to play the piano, and then learning to build a computer, and then learning to program it, and then learning to ride a bike, and then learning to play chess, and then learning to sell cars, and then learning to do a million other things that are different but in some respect equally valuable in some manner or another is stagnating in life?  Even if you suck at all of it... you still have that experience of doing it - and that's a great experience to have!

No one ever said vertical progression was bad and pointless.  You aren't listening.  But on that, I would never argue that people only want to be better at one thing all the time - constant vertical progression.  People who are like that are very closed-minded people who typically have only one care in the world - themselves.  Which... kind of explains why you think you're absolutely correct about this.  And no... you aren't.

Variety is the spice of life.  You don't get variety through vertical power.  Is it awesome to achieve a master status in one thing?  Absolutely.  But its also awesome to experience all this other stuff in one life time?  You better believe it is.  If you don't agree... well, you simply haven't lived, my friend.

The problem with MMO's is the vertical progression far outweighs the horizontal progression... and people are bored with that.  The playing field needs to be leveled more, and I argue that it needs more horizontal progression than vertical progression.  An MMO will always have a peak level of power you can achieve.  For an MMO, this is bad, because it means end-game.  But, it could literally have an infinite number of things to achieve it in.  THAT's what people want.

  Spawnblade

Novice Member

Joined: 2/02/05
Posts: 196

2/17/14 2:19:38 AM#32
Originally posted by DeserttFoxx

Levels are a balance gate, so you can control when power is unlocked, otherwise why would you ever get a lesser skill might as well always get the best.

 

From what i see your player has 50 levels, but everything else also levels to 50, so there is a lot you can do even after you cap out. Which is basically how the every elder scrolls game works.

 

As for the zone levels..no elder scrolls has this feature, in single player elder scrolls game everything just levels with you.

Actually, Daggerfall and Morrowind were static leveled games.  Oblivion was completely dynamic leveled, and there were no zones (until you modded it with what were considered -essential- overhauls.)  Skyrim introduced and solidified the system of Encounter Zones that were developed with Fallout 3.  Most NPCs leveled with you, but Encounter Zones did have minimum levels, and occasionally maximum levels.  A shitty system, if I do say so myself.  It's not a coincidence most people consider Morrowind to have the best gameplay of the series.

  DKLond

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 543

2/17/14 2:24:47 AM#33
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by DKLond
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by DKLond
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by DKLond

The whole concept of horizontal progression is an illusion that's been perpetuated so much since GW2 that I'm sick of hearing about it.

Progression, as a concept, means you get BETTER - you EVOLVE. That doesn't happen with horizontal progression.

Telling people that they're progressing when they are, in fact, stagnating - is only going to work for a limited time.

Oh, there will always be a few people who might spend years realising this simple truth - but the majority will eventually realise that horizontal progression isn't that much fun - and that they've been duped into believing that evolution without evolution can actually happen.

GW2 doesn't have horizontal progression.  It has vertical progression.  The skills you use don't even matter.  All that matters are the stats that make the skills stronger.  And that's progressed through your gear.  You can throw a million skills in a system and call it horizontal all you want.  But if the skills only respond to the fact that you have larger stats that grow over time for one reason or another.... that's a vertical progression system.

This is D&D all over again.  The only difference is that the base power is in your stats that you control, and not the gear or the spell.  The spell is powerless without the stat.  The attack is powerless without the stat.  In MMO's, the developer controls the stats with the gear, instead of putting the option in your own hands.  This is for balance purposes.  It's the same thing all day long, and this is exactly what GW2 does.

Horizontal progression gives you the ability to choose between left, right, up, and down, instead of being made to go left.  It gives you an even more sense of option than a predefined pattern of vertical progression - which REQUIRES an illusion to work in the first place.

Plenty of great games have been made with a horizontal progression system.  The Legend of Zelda is one of them.  Both are great systems to build a game with.  But I think an MMO would prosper better with a horizontal progression approach.  And just because ArenaNet says they have horizontal progression... doesn't mean they actually do.  In fact... I don't even know how that is even a factor.

 

Are you agreeing with me on purpose, or is it that you have to be the "smart" one?

Any kind of actual progression is vertical - and there's no way to provide balanced "horizontally oriented" skills without making them identical. This means that one skill WILL be better than another for a specific purpose. So, a new skill is going to be vertical. Up for better and down for worse. There is no "the same" - it's an illusion.

However, GW2 provides a ton of what developers call horizontal progression - which includes weapon and armor skins.

Now, I wouldn't call that progression - because it's not - but they managed to sell the players on the concept.

The entire concept is an illusion - or a dream if you prefer.

It might work in theory - but since math is driving everything in the end, it can never work in practice.

 

Okay, let's look at this like we're 5th graders.

In a standard grid - you have an X axis and a Y axis.  They are both numbered 1-5.

If you start at zero and move up one spot - that is called vertical progression.  You are now at 1.  If you move again, you would be at 2.  This is called progression.

If you go back to zero, and move to the right one spot - that is called horizontal progression.  Hey, look at that - you're at 1 again.  If you go one more spot, you're at 2.  This is called progression.

What do you know?  Progression exists in both axes.  The difference is in what these measurements provide value for.  You need to think more abstractly in order to understand horizontal progression.  Yeah, yeah, I know - an illusion.  The difference is abstract things become realities all the time.  Everything starts as an abstract - an idea.  All things that exist were first an idea.  This is no different.

You're problem is that your looking at the MMO as it currently is, and attributing those qualities it presents, as if they translate exactly the same way in a horizontal progression game.

The whole design would have to change to accommodate the progression system.  What - did you think leveling up existed in a vacuum - that it really didn't affect every design decision about the game?  MANY games have gone under ENORMOUS amounts of redesign based on this one thing alone: How does the player "level up"?

Legend of Zelda lets you level up by finding new relics to use in the world.  Chrono Trigger gives you stat progression and powers affect by it.  Both are great games.  Both are gaming classics.  No one is arguing that vertical progression sucks.  All I'm saying is horizontal progression, which exists whether you can understand it or not, would be better suited for an MMO.

Yes, I know there's a horizontal direction on a grid, but that's not power progression. Progression is about power, nothing more, nothing less.

You know I'm right.

Whether you attain that power by finding a relic or gaining a level, it's still power progression.

That's what people want - that's what's fun.

People don't want to stagnate in terms of power. It's human nature to grow and evolve - and there's absolutely no way around it.

Saying horizontal progression exists is not enough, you have to prove that it exists - and you can't, because progression is vertical by nature. It can never be horizontal.

I'm sorry, but that's really all there is to it.

Unfortunate? No, not really. I don't mind vertical progression. I mind the grind, the repetition, the tedium. But I enjoy evolving in my roleplaying games. I enjoy progression.

There's nothing wrong with it.

Lol.. dude... I never said anything was wrong with it in the first place.

Explain to me how learning to draw, and then learning to write, and then learning to sing, and then learning to play basketball, and then learning to swim, and then learning to speak to an audience, and then learning to do back flips, and then learning to climb a mountain, and then learning to climb a mountain without ropes, and then learning to fly a plane, and then learning to play the piano, and then learning to build a computer, and then learning to program it, and then learning to ride a bike, and then learning to play chess, and then learning to sell cars, and then learning to do a million other things that are different but in some respect equally valuable in some manner or another is stagnating in life?  Even if you suck at all of it... you still have that experience of doing it - and that's a great experience to have!

No one ever said vertical progression was bad and pointless.  You aren't listening.  But on that, I would never argue that people only want to be better at one thing all the time - constant vertical progression.  People who are like that are very closed-minded people who typically have only one care in the world - themselves.  Which... kind of explains why you think you're absolutely correct about this.  And no... you aren't.

Variety is the spice of life.  You don't get variety through vertical power.  Is it awesome to achieve a master status in one thing?  Absolutely.  But its also awesome to experience all this other stuff in one life time?  You better believe it is.  If you don't agree... well, you simply haven't lived, my friend.

The problem with MMO's is the vertical progression far outweighs the horizontal progression... and people are bored with that.  The playing field needs to be leveled more, and I argue that it needs more horizontal progression than vertical progression.  An MMO will always have a peak level of power you can achieve.  For an MMO, this is bad, because it means end-game.  But, it could literally have an infinite number of things to achieve it in.  THAT's what people want.

You're talking about real life - where learning a skill will give you something in return that's actually useful.

In a computer game - and I hope you understand that this is about computer games - you don't get anything useful back from something that doesn't give you an advantage of some sort.

Well, it might - but that won't be progression. Then we're back to skins and christmas gifts. You can call that diversity and distraction if you want - but it's not progression. You could call it a gameplay HORIZON - but don't call it progression.

I'm not saying games shouldn't have variety - and I love stuff like housing and fishing.

But if you take progression OUT of your computer game, you're left with a terribly inferior version of real life.

People don't want that - they want a power fantasy when they're playing a game. Distraction and diversity have their place - but they can't represent progression.

I'm not saying progression is everything. I'm saying progression is vertical.

  Notimeforbs

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/13
Posts: 297

2/17/14 2:42:27 AM#34
Originally posted by Spawnblade
Originally posted by DeserttFoxx

Levels are a balance gate, so you can control when power is unlocked, otherwise why would you ever get a lesser skill might as well always get the best.

 

From what i see your player has 50 levels, but everything else also levels to 50, so there is a lot you can do even after you cap out. Which is basically how the every elder scrolls game works.

 

As for the zone levels..no elder scrolls has this feature, in single player elder scrolls game everything just levels with you.

Actually, Daggerfall and Morrowind were static leveled games.  Oblivion was completely dynamic leveled, and there were no zones (until you modded it with what were considered -essential- overhauls.)  Skyrim introduced and solidified the system of Encounter Zones that were developed with Fallout 3.  Most NPCs leveled with you, but Encounter Zones did have minimum levels, and occasionally maximum levels.  A shitty system, if I do say so myself.  It's not a coincidence most people consider Morrowind to have the best gameplay of the series.

Morrowind is considered the best gameplay, not because of level locking.  Actually, I'd argue it had nothing to do with this.  It was considered the best because there were a million ways to approach any problem in the game.  People were able to use their imagination without feeling like they were limited to certain methods.  Unlike Skyrim that while it offered a lot of options... you could simply take one look and already know that feeling of doing anything isn't an option.  But for myself... it did a lot of things really well that I was okay with the compromise.  Ehh... you win some, you lose some.

Anyway, they changed the way the world works in regards to your level because of Radiant AI.  This means that everyone maintained a life cycle where they actually did different normal things throughout the day.  They might also have a script that made them travel cross-country depending on what time of month it was.  Oblivion introduced this and Fallout 3 used it as well - so did Skyrim.  They made the game level up with you, because it showed that the world was constantly changing.  It's debatable whether or not it was pulled off to great affect... but the idea is sound.

Skyrim introduced the idea that some of the NPC's couldn't be killed.  This is because with Radiant AI... people died sometimes without you being there to help them.  This was sometimes a huge problem because it could have potentially locked you out of continuing in a quest.  This is a big no-no in game design.  It's one thing if YOU fail it.  It's another thing for the game to do it at random, and you can't continue.

Morrowind did a lot of things right... but the subsequent games did a lot of things right too.  And they also made a lot of improvements.  The reason Morrowind was beloved, though, was because of the unparalleled number of options at your disposal at any point in the game.

That's horizontal progression, by the way.

  Spawnblade

Novice Member

Joined: 2/02/05
Posts: 196

2/17/14 2:53:02 AM#35

In response to the OP:  I wouldn't be against a level-less system in a game that was built from the ground up for it.  ESO is not that game.  It takes a total sandbox to pull that off, and preferably one with a hardcore death system or something to really flesh it out.  Basically, when you cut out levels, you cut out a huge swathe of standard character development, which either needs to be replaced, or it can be left off if the intent is to allow players to bounce back into the game after serious loss of death, thereby creating meaning for that lost progression avenue.  Otherwise there's really no reason to not have that progression.

 

Now in some games levels are a bigger bane than others.  Particularly games where they have hard modifiers to stats when attacking/defending against enemies that are of different level.  Like in Sw:TOR, or Borderlands, every level above a creature you get ridiculous bonuses vs it, and likewise if they're above you.  This is lame.  Take WoW, for instance.  Even if you have 150 level 40s bashing on a max level toon, they will never kill that single player because of how broken the scale of power is (and the miss chance/glancing blow bullshit.)

 

I didn't see that in Elder Scrolls, however.  I was running around in areas with monsters more than 50% of my level  (and could even take them one at a time until I ran into a named boss mob that was 7 levels higher than me.)  This is because ESO has a linear progression.  I had about 250 base HP without any investment, and a max level character would have about 1000.  By purely numbers, that puts a max level character at ~4x the strength of a level 12 character, in one stat.  Obviously this is multiplied when you figure the rest of the stats.  But once you factor in crowd control, you could actually kill a max level ESO character  (assuming they're not immune to cc) with a small squad (6 or so) level 10 players getting the jump on them.  Now as far as I'm concerned, that's pretty awesome.  This is doable thanks to CC and moves like puncture or mark target which could reduce the targets armor to nothing.  But let's say they're at a more realistic disparity in level -- 10 levels.  The differences between the characters would not be so much that one 50 could smash two 40s.

 

For this reason, levels in ESO already are not nearly as big a deal as other MMOs  (for the better, imo.)  I don't see any reason to do away with them altogether, however, as there is nothing that would benefit from the removal aside from a loss of progression and customization.  The game would lose far too many themepark enthusiasts simply because of how they identify with levels.

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2720

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

2/17/14 2:56:35 AM#36
This is going to be a first so might want to remember this time exposed.  But I actually kind of agree with you.  Would definitely make the game more Elder Scrolls like.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2720

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

2/17/14 2:59:56 AM#37
Originally posted by Damedius
Originally posted by arieste
Originally posted by Damedius

Each player or group would have to have their own instanced world to play in for this to work.

You do realize that ESO has this technology and already does this (gives every player their own instanced world to play in).  

 

I'm not agreeing that it should all scale to players, just pointing out that the actual technology already exists and is being used in ESO.  (As it stands, every played has their own instances world to play in with regards to questing - different players see different things).  

True but it wouldn't be an mmo any more. It would be a co-op rpg.

You wouldn't be able to have mobs in the open world. If a level 50 and level 10 were in the same zone. The level 50 mobs that scaled to the level 50 player would kill the level 10 player.

Edit: This might work at launch but the world would extremely desolate for players who started after.

Neverwinter does this with it's PvE themed events and I think most MMO's that offer some sort of early opt in to PvP areas like GW2 do this as well.  Not extremely out of the ordinary for a future company to take this one step further and scale everything to the same level and progression is based on skills and resource management.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Mors.Magne

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/02/07
Posts: 1425

2/17/14 3:12:22 AM#38

I think Star Citizen has the best 'leveling' concept - your abilities are determined by what your ship is and the equipment on board.

 

You can insure your ship, but all the equipment can be destroyed. 

 

There is no leveling of skills. Therefore, if two players had a fight in identical ships, it would all be down to player skill.

 

I think this is the ideal system and a similar system should be introduced to ESO.

  Notimeforbs

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/13
Posts: 297

2/17/14 3:26:12 AM#39
Originally posted by DKLond

Here, this is the literal definition of the word: progression.  Yes, the definition you are applying to it is in there.  So is the one I am applying it.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/progression?s=t

 

You're relating it to a succession in quantities.

I'm relating it to a passive of successively from one member to the next.

These definitions have the word successively.  This is an adverb which describes how something is ordered.  The root of the word is successive.  Here is the definition for it:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/succession

 

This word relates to order.  Let's look that word up.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/order?s=t

 

Progression does not just mean more power.  It does mean that - yes.  But it also has other meanings.  It can simply mean moving from one spot to another dependening upon how things are organized.

You can organize something based on the amount of power it generates - vertical progression.

You can organize it based on the color it has - vanity - has no function in relative terms.

You can organize it based on how it generates power - horizontal progression.

You can also organize it based on how the power generated is used - more horizontal progression

All of these are good things.  They can all be great.  But a game alone they do not make.

It is of my opinion that MMO's need more horizontal progression.  It is progress because when you start the game, you have one manner in which you can generate power.  As your progress, you gain more ways in which to generate power.  This makes you more powerful in the fact that you have more options available at your disposal.  This means the entire game has to be designed around this idea.

The point of leveling up in this sort of game is not to equip a more powerful rifle.  The point is to be able to carry a rifle, and a pistol, and some grenades, and a bullet proof vest.  This is horizontal progression.  One item is just as useful as another.  Metrically speaking - they generate the same amount of power.  But by having more options available, you become more powerful.  Not because you generate more power.  But because you now have more ways in which to distribute and generate that power.  Sometimes a pistol works better.  Sometimes a grenade gets the job done.  Sometimes you want a bullet proof vest.... though to be fair, I don't know when you would ever not want one :P

Real life military tactics revolve around the concept of horizontal progression.  A soldier with more skills is a better soldier.  A soldier with more tools is a better soldier.  Providing a soldier with more of either one or both automatically generates more tactical options.  This makes the soldier's unit more powerful.  Not because they generate more power, but because they have more options in how that power is generated and how to disperse it.

No one is arguing that vertical progression is bad.  I am simply saying that horizontal progression is progression if you DESIGN THE WHOLE GAME around it being progress.  "Hey, awesome - I couldn't carry grenades before.  Now I can.  This is cool.  I feel like my guy is becoming more powerful and that I am progressing in this game."

I understand completely this is about video games.  Bringing real life scenarios into this is to help you understand what I am talking about, because generally speaking, people relate better to things that are real.  I'm talking about a principle - not the actual thing.

Something that generates an advantage in a video game is a vague statement that could literally mean anything.  Having a powerful rifle is an advantage.  Having grenades is an advantage.  Having both is an even bigger advantage, even if the other person has a more powerful rifle than you do.  It's all in whether or not the game is designed to take advantage of a horizontal progression.  The point that makes it progress is the fact that you get to use this other thing, when before, you couldn't.

Geez... you're making a very simple thing to be overly complicated.

  Pilnkplonk

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/02/10
Posts: 1566

2/17/14 3:37:56 AM#40

That's the main reason I'm not even considering playing it. I couldn't stomach another level-gated treadmill to the "endgame." I'm so jaded of this tired old rpg-trope I'm getting queasy just thinking about it. Isn't it nigh time someone started looking at something other than D&D as the basis for their MMORPG?

And if ESO world scales with you at lvl 50 then why the hell all those first 49 levels? Let's just start at 50 and be done with it. Elaborate arcane systems woven to cover a rotten core. If the "game begins at endgame" then why the hell doesn't it actually begin at endgame? I really can't see myself taking more than one character (if that) through 49 levels of so-called journey just so I can start playing the game proper.

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