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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » No Trinity, No Tanks, No Thanks

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356 posts found
  capitalT

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/27/13
Posts: 20

2/01/14 12:01:01 AM#41

The trinity hasnt existed in any other game that I know of since EQ1.   DPS was NOT part of the trinity.

It was tank, healer, utility guy which was crowd control of some form slows, mez, stuns , roots , charm , fear etc.

The utility guy was either the least or most important member of the trinity depending where your group was hunting.

 

Everything else is just a DPS .

 

I did want dedicated tanks , healers , utility guys for EQN , the trinity isnt bad.

However I would never want that to be the only viable group make up. 

 

I want a game system that allows tactics to change based on the group composition.

5 healers should be viable

5 DPS should be viable

5 tanks should be viable

5 Utility should be viable

5 of a mix of any Tank, healer , DPS , Utility should be viable

 

a trinity group should just be the easiest most reliable group , but limiting that as the only functional group 

robs players of the chance to improvise new tactics and makes the game more boring.

 

 

As for Tanks and taunts.

I would do away with taunts . Make it so that tank classes in the role of tank will do mega damage to a mob unless that mob actively focuses on defending against the tank. And /or make tank special attacks, (sunder, hamstring, stun etc) become way more powerful if the mob isnt focused on the tank.

What I mean is this ,  say you are a rogue , you are behind the mob swinging away doing normal damage , then occasionally there is an opening and you have the chance to do a mega damage backstab . A tank should do normal damage until the mob thinks , that jerk rogue just messed me up . the mob turns and stops focusing its defensive tactics on the tank, the tank now uses his expert training in military tactics to find weak spots , and do mega damage hits or the special attacks have a greater magnitude.

Multi defense would need to be a skill somehow , Like against one mob you have full defensive skill, but against 2 you have 50% each or against 3 you have 33% each , but multi defense would raise those percentages . 

  Xiaoki

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/07/04
Posts: 2427

2/02/14 7:08:14 PM#42

I imagine this topic will be repeated many times between now and when EQN launches.


Too much misinformation from people unwilling to do simple research.


EQN will not be like GW2 because EQN is only removing tanks. In EQN you can be a dedicated healer.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5575

2/02/14 7:43:41 PM#43
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by Nadia

Guild Wars 1 had no taunt but classes still had roles - and healers existed

i liked the GW1 system

Yep. And GW1 worked both with dedicated healers and without them in groups.  No dedicated healers? Take a few self survival skills.  Harder content?  Get someone to load up on specialised healing.

Mobs weren't tanked through boring taunts forcing mobs to magically face them, you had to use positioning and CC to get mobs to attack the more defensive players or to spread out the damage.

GW2 was a massive step backwards, but GW1 already proved that you can have amazing combat without the trinity.

Also as another poster mentioned, EQN was stated to have more of a MOBA feel.  MOBAs have support classes with heals, and I could see it working well in a MMO.

Honestly the thing holding games back are tanks.  Magical taunts that force mobs to face someone are dumb and need to die in a fire.  If the death of the trinity just means no more magical taunt tanks then good riddance.

Me too. GW1 has some great mechanics in it. How about a class role that centers around interrupting and disabling opponent skills (ranger) or punishes the foe for activating skills (mesmer) or uses mob corpses for healing (necro wells).

I love playing healers and support. Snap aggro and taunt mechanics are something I won't mind seeing go away. They essentially gut support into being buff/debuff casters for the tank and dps.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  Scorchien

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/12/06
Posts: 1080

2/02/14 8:07:55 PM#44
Originally posted by Allein

Really can't wrap my head around why people don't understand what they are doing. They haven't been to clear and the details are a bit scattered, but still it is fairly obvious.

There are more options then just Trinity (EQ/WoW) and Zerg DPS (GW2). I'm not sure if people just have lack of experience or what, but take any mmorpg with PVP and look at how it runs.

There are still clearly defined roles that work perfectly without taunt, threat meters, and other hand-holding features while still enforcing teamwork, communication, and strategy.

Sure there are situations in any game where DPS is the quickest and easiest route, but unless that is how the game was designed (GW2), it shouldn't be the norm.

If you add in any sort of reactive-"smart" AI or mechanics that throw curve balls, a rounded team is needed. Maybe you don't need a "dedicated" healer every single encounter, doesn't mean they are garbage. With 40+ classes, they have endless possibilities on how to get creative with content.

They don't flat out give details, but they've also mentioned that you can "try" anything, doesn't mean you will succeed, at least not easily. Unlike EQ/WoW, if you didn't show up with XYZ, don't show up at all.

While we have very little context to go by and just a few details, there is nothing to draw the conclusion that EQN = GW2 or mindless DPS zerging.

GW2 class system is nothing like EQN's. The AI system won't be the same. Combat system won't be the same. Etc. Etc.

I'm sorry that some people have to rely on crappy mechanics like taunt and "dedicated" whatever, but it is a outdated system that many are more than happy to be rid of.

 

   Which would explain why more peolpe are playing Trinity based system than non-Trinity .. its not even close ....

If you can't see the potential and think outside the box of a very few ways that games have done it in the past, that's too bad.

They aren't trying to make EQ3 or GW3 or copy what has been done before. If you can't handle it, oh well, your loss.

Pantheon is dedicated to those stuck in the past and looking at the KS, that doesn't seem to be as many willing to throw money at the game as there are stomping their feet on every new game to be announced. You asked for it, there ya go.

 

  KhinRunite

Novice Member

Joined: 11/05/10
Posts: 897

2/02/14 8:20:12 PM#45
No hard trinity is the best idea to come in multiplayer games. I can just gather up my friends and we can go on our adventure without forcing anyone to log in as their tank or healer.
  Fearum

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 1089

2/02/14 8:23:35 PM#46
Originally posted by KhinRunite
No hard trinity is the best idea to come in multiplayer games. I can just gather up my friends and we can go on our adventure without forcing anyone to log in as their tank or healer.

Yeah everyone wins every time, never a losing strategy with the new system. Just log in and you get a award.

  jitter77

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/12/12
Posts: 37

2/02/14 8:34:16 PM#47
I am not against a non-trinity game, but I think what most people think of is GW2.  I dont know how they can make a viable non-chaotic fun system.  What they say sounds good on paper, but how will it implement in reality.  I would love to be in  a group finder and get instant queue w/o being a tank or healer.  The queue times in FFXIV for a non tank/healer are ridiculous.  On the other hand I do not want a system that resembles GW2 at all.
  JJ82

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/13
Posts: 898

2/02/14 8:43:21 PM#48
Originally posted by drkoracle

They are ditching the Trinity System and instead going with a GW2 like build. Personally I much prefer structured play, I don't have any qualms about multi-class characters or not needing alts but there is no way I am going trough another GW2 or NWO style dungeon run where everyone zergs in, some may like it but not for me.

One of the reasons I WILL be there. I am sick of playing the same old tired game designs that have limited the genre for such a long time.

BTW, you do know that "LEEEEEROOOYYYYYYYYYYYYY JENKINS" Comes from WoW, with the Trinity right?

Right. You are not going to fool anyone into thinking that there being no trinity means "Zerg" when every single person that has ever played trinity based games at one point had a group or raid that was goofball crazy running around like chickens with their heads cut off getting everyone killed.

I reject your black and white assessments because its biased, a good group of players will adjust to being able to do EVERYTIHNG by picking what they like the most as needed for the moment, and the LEET players will do it on the fly.

"Hey, I have slightly better armor, I will tank this time, who has the better magic bonuses? Good, you heal. Hey you have the better weapon, you DPS. Everyone, pop your heals when healer is on cooldown only".

GOOD players make use of the system available.

"People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  RebelScum99

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/26/12
Posts: 1127

2/02/14 8:50:25 PM#49
Originally posted by KhinRunite
No hard trinity is the best idea to come in multiplayer games. I can just gather up my friends and we can go on our adventure without forcing anyone to log in as their tank or healer.

It's actually the worst idea.  But carry on.  

  krage

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/22/11
Posts: 408

2/02/14 8:53:08 PM#50

This wont change anyones opinions about the GW2 system but I am going to say it anyways to help highlight some facts about their "trinity" system.

There is tanking in the game, but yes there is not much of a pure healer class.

 

Its more like Tank like classes, CC, and "support" which includes some clinch heals and buffs.

Just to be clear here is how you can tank in GW2:

  1. closest target to them
  2. who is dealing damage
  3. top damage dealers
  4. who is using a shield / has more toughness and overall armor
  5. others (see Tanking tactics) ... rez aggro, aggro + kite
Problem is alot of people who claim to have played GW2 are not even aware tanking is possible. Big difference in GW2 tanking and regular trinity games is you have to work much harder and its based more on CC, kiting when there are large enemies instead of face tanking these monstrosities.
 
Some enemies of course prioritize enemies differently which is good to mix up the fights...they even do this in trinity games...its those monsters which are "untauntable" or attack casters at certain times, basically an uninspired version of enemies with different "mindsets" and targeting priorities.

As for healing, you can spec into really strong healing but you are doing an injustice by just "healing" since most classes are sort of reliant for their own healing and damage management through evasion and CC. The healers are better off going DPS, however  I must note that in large WvW fights AOE heal capable players can turn the tide of a siege...best example AOE healing on the Ram crews to stay in the fight and breach.

 

TLDR:

  1. GW2 has a soft trinity to say otherwise is just ignorant of the system, not to disrespect anyones opinions but what I linked is from ANET about their aggro tables (Facts), and my first hand experience being an Engi tank with my Guardian Tank buddy.
  2. The system is not perfect but it is very viable to make for more engaging combat instead of tank and spank aggro mechanics.
  3. EQN Storybricks AI system is the potential secret sauce to add that missing element to the GW2-like soft trinity system imo. You just have to adapt to enemy preferences on a fight by fight basis.

 

Disclaimer: I like trinity to a point, and I much prefer a "soft" trinity system with role specialization. I currently play WoW and GW2.

  Phaen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/13
Posts: 9

2/02/14 8:56:57 PM#51

I can see from a "be able to do anything" point of view that 5 mages say would be fun to grp, but from an immersive point of view how are they going to stand up to say a Dragon?

Trinity, done rightly or wrongly has the idea of placing the big plate wearing melee fighter in the front line. The rangers and casters standing at a distance behind them, where the mobs "can't ideally" get to them. Things like taunt are really just bad skills, were knock back, wall defense and that type of thing is what they really should be providing. Rogues should be nimble and go unnoticed, sure a stab in the back hurts, but went the mob turns there's no one there.

Healers is a means to an end, but casters could be more support play with like magical shields to prevent damage, abilities to magically freeze targets, charm targets and the like while still doing damage. Rangers should trap and hinder etc etc. Trouble is this is all to hard to manage in confined dungeon space with fast action combat.

Having multi class is fine, but is only been a requirement due to bad class balance and design. Make tank less taunty and healers less specailsed and dps more supportive, but most importantly make classes enjoyable and balanced so people will play a good mix.

Me personally, I'll stick with the Trinity til someone makes something better that works :)

  Xthos

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2627

2/02/14 9:06:00 PM#52

I like the trinity myself, but I am not going to rant, throw a hissy fit, and tell them that their game's combat sucks, without seeing it and playing it.

 

I worry about the game being too casual, but I can't say it will be, or make a post saying it is, when me nor anyone else has played it or knows.

 

I didn't like any GW2 class I tried, and I thought that the game was too cluttered, if EQN delivers the same, I won't be playing it.  I have liked games without a trinity before, UO is one of my top 2 mmos of all time, and it didn't.  I gotta wait and see.

 

I donated to Pantheon, because I miss trinity play, enchanter type classes, and loved VG/EQ, but I don't refuse to play something if it is made by company 'x'.

  JJ82

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/13
Posts: 898

2/02/14 9:06:38 PM#53
Originally posted by Phaen

I can see from a "be able to do anything" point of view that 5 mages say would be fun to grp, but from an immersive point of view how are they going to stand up to say a Dragon?

Easily. It many fantasy settings it was the mages that created the dragons in the first place. In other settings mages are in control of the dragons. It yet other settings there are mages that have a staff in one hand, a sword in the other and scream out things like "You shall not pass" to Balrogs that were Maiar and thus more powerful than dragons.

Immersion is a funny thing.

"People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  Mithrandolir

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/28/05
Posts: 1682

Our doubts are traitors and make us lose the good we oft' might win, by fearing to attempt

2/02/14 9:10:45 PM#54
Originally posted by Xthos

I like the trinity myself, but I am not going to rant, throw a hissy fit, and tell them that their game's combat sucks, without seeing it and playing it.

 

I worry about the game being too casual, but I can't say it will be, or make a post saying it is, when me nor anyone else has played it or knows.

 

I didn't like any GW2 class I tried, and I thought that the game was too cluttered, if EQN delivers the same, I won't be playing it.  I have liked games without a trinity before, UO is one of my top 2 mmos of all time, and it didn't.  I gotta wait and see.

 

I donated to Pantheon, because I miss trinity play, enchanter type classes, and loved VG/EQ, but I don't refuse to play something if it is made by company 'x'.

I feel like I could have posted this word for word. I agree 100%

I love games like EQ and VG with the trinity at the core of their foundation. And then I also love UO and AC1 which had no trinity. Either way, it comes down to the gameplay for me. 

  KhinRunite

Novice Member

Joined: 11/05/10
Posts: 897

2/02/14 9:46:20 PM#55
Originally posted by Fearum
Originally posted by KhinRunite
No hard trinity is the best idea to come in multiplayer games. I can just gather up my friends and we can go on our adventure without forcing anyone to log in as their tank or healer.

Yeah everyone wins every time, never a losing strategy with the new system. Just log in and you get a award.

The term 'rez-zerg' suggests that people keep dying in boss encounters, so where are you pulling that kind of thinking? There's actually a bigger chance of failing because people have to adapt to situations on the fly.

  KhinRunite

Novice Member

Joined: 11/05/10
Posts: 897

2/02/14 9:50:35 PM#56
Originally posted by RebelScum99
Originally posted by KhinRunite
No hard trinity is the best idea to come in multiplayer games. I can just gather up my friends and we can go on our adventure without forcing anyone to log in as their tank or healer.

It's actually the worst idea.  But carry on.  

I don't see it. Maybe you like playing a tank or healer, or you always have enough people online to group with, so looking for specific classes isn't a pain for you.

The thrill of an encounter doesn't depend on the trinity. It depends on the boss design. I've had great experiences both with trinity and non-trinity MMO. Non trinity is just more convenient for grouping.

  User Deleted
2/02/14 10:01:17 PM#57
Originally posted by KhinRunite
No hard trinity is the best idea to come in multiplayer games. I can just gather up my friends and we can go on our adventure without forcing anyone to log in as their tank or healer.

To me, it just makes it feel like MMO's went from being Chess to Checkers.  For anyone who actually enjoys playing a tank or healer, this whole no-trinity trend is pretty crappy.

  codejack

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/17/06
Posts: 187

2/02/14 10:27:37 PM#58

Everyone complaining about this needs to go look at how Dungeons & Dragons Online wound up dealing with the trinity in a multiclass scheme:

You don't need a "tank" in DDO; or rather, the status of "tank" has less to do with your class and more to do with your build and gear. The tank is whoever is keeping aggro and living through the experience. My monk/ranger/rogue archer tanks high level raids because I deal huge amounts of damage and am about impossible to hit. You'll see wizards and clerics tanking, sometimes.

Everyone is DPS; even healers have a couple of nasty DoTs and some extended-range direct damage spells, not to mention a pretty good melee tree, plus they can splash another class in to get access to its enhancement tree. Bards are probably the worst DPS, but they make up for it by increasing everyone else's damage.

Healers are nice, but really only mandatory for raids (and there are ways around even that), and clerics can keep up healing automatically, leaving them free to debuff enemies, cast offensive spells, physically attack, etc, while druids have HoTs for much the same purpose. Everyone can heal themselves to a greater or lesser extent, through some combination of potions, scrolls, hirelings, feats, racial abilities, class powers, or epic destiny gifts.

You see groups looking for crowd control and trappers as often as anything else, because those are actually class restricted.

  KaosProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 384

2/03/14 2:49:24 AM#59
Originally posted by Phaen

I can see from a "be able to do anything" point of view that 5 mages say would be fun to grp, but from an immersive point of view how are they going to stand up to say a Dragon?

With brains instead of stupid meatshields.  Speaking from a conglomeration of magic history rather than any clue what mages can actually do in-game:  Teleport-kiting or spammed illusions to keep him from hitting anyone in melee, and buffs or well-timed magic barriers to negate ranged attacks.

(Of course, I'll admit to the obvious problem with that:  'conglomeration of magic history' gives mages godlike power that obsoletes everyone else over time.)

Trinity, done rightly or wrongly has the idea of placing the big plate wearing melee fighter in the front line.

Which works fine against enemies who have to break through the line.  But the only reason your hypothetical Dragon doesn't just fly past him to the softer (but more dangerous) targets is because the game scripted that possibility out to allow for Trinity play. 

And the only reason that big plate wearing guy is actually 'less dangerous' is because allowing him to hit as hard as his size and weapon would imply would be cutting into the DPS' role...  so instead of doing actual damage, he generates threat.

Healers is a means to an end, but casters could be more support play with like magical shields to prevent damage, abilities to magically freeze targets, charm targets and the like while still doing damage. Rangers should trap and hinder etc etc. Trouble is this is all to hard to manage in confined dungeon space with fast action combat.

 

Underlined portions had to be nerfed, because if they're too effective they negate the need for a tank...


Me personally, I'll stick with the Trinity til someone makes something better that works :)

You won't get to 'something better that works' without people willing to put in the effort of trying different things and working on the rough edges.  Fortunately, I'm content to be part of that effort.

 

FTR, I have no problem with Trinity-based games existing.  I have a problem with them being the *only* type of game in town.

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5168

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

2/03/14 2:58:01 AM#60

Whether it has trinity or not i will still play it. With that said, if it has trinity i hope its very soft. Im sick of every single mmorpg having a forced trinity, specially when the classes are limited  to a specific role.

 

As long as every character can do any role then they can have all the trinity they want.

My endgame begins with character creation and ends with a new mmorpg

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