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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » No Trinity, No Tanks, No Thanks

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356 posts found
  aRtFuLThinG

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/30/09
Posts: 1000

1/29/14 11:41:15 PM#21
Originally posted by Omali

No one ever stops to think "maybe I'm not the demographic for this game."

^ That sums it up.

 

Gamers are so self-centered nowadays. They want every game to be designed for "them".

 

There are other people out there who have differing opinions/likes. Let them have their cake too.

  Aelious

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2260

World > Quest Progression

1/29/14 11:55:17 PM#22
What if I told you there was still a tank. What is a tank? Keeps mobs from pounding the squishy ones right? If you look at the videos of the warrior abilities it looks like abilities that indeed would physically keep mobs away from others. Far better than a taunt mechanic, one that won't work on the mob AI SoE has Storybricks working on.

I'd look more toward MOBA mechanics translated to an MMO than GW2.
  Allein

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/13
Posts: 650

1/30/14 12:08:14 AM#23
Originally posted by Aelious
What if I told you there was still a tank. What is a tank? Keeps mobs from pounding the squishy ones right? If you look at the videos of the warrior abilities it looks like abilities that indeed would physically keep mobs away from others. Far better than a taunt mechanic, one that won't work on the mob AI SoE has Storybricks working on.

I'd look more toward MOBA mechanics translated to an MMO than GW2.

It's much easier to pull out a phrase, out of context, and make a bunch of assumptions based on it =)

Seems some lack imagination and simply see Tank = Taunt, the end.

  marganculos

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/08/04
Posts: 204

1/30/14 12:15:34 AM#24


Originally posted by DamonVile
...

If it ends up like GW2 and everything is just a rez zerg I'll pass on the game.
...



+1

  User Deleted
1/30/14 12:35:22 AM#25
Originally posted by Nadia

Guild Wars 1 had no taunt but classes still had roles - and healers existed

i liked the GW1 system

 

Yep. And GW1 worked both with dedicated healers and without them in groups.  No dedicated healers? Take a few self survival skills.  Harder content?  Get someone to load up on specialised healing.

Mobs weren't tanked through boring taunts forcing mobs to magically face them, you had to use positioning and CC to get mobs to attack the more defensive players or to spread out the damage.

GW2 was a massive step backwards, but GW1 already proved that you can have amazing combat without the trinity.

 

Also as another poster mentioned, EQN was stated to have more of a MOBA feel.  MOBAs have support classes with heals, and I could see it working well in a MMO.

 

Honestly the thing holding games back are tanks.  Magical taunts that force mobs to face someone are dumb and need to die in a fire.  If the death of the trinity just means no more magical taunt tanks then good riddance.

 

  Allein

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/13
Posts: 650

1/30/14 1:31:12 AM#26

I'm starting to think that many of these "trinity or else" fans played EQ for a short time, maybe EQ2, WoW for way too long, and then GW2 for a stint.

There have been so many games in the last 15 years that have mixed it up in one way or another that to have such tunnel vision can only be explained by lack of experience or unwillingness to experience anything new.

 

  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

1/30/14 3:15:00 AM#27
Can we wait for a) more info and b) maybe try it out before crying doom?

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  Paladrink

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/16/06
Posts: 44

What we do in life, echoes in eternity.

1/30/14 6:05:56 AM#28

Trinity is not an old developers dream, its the basis for party grouping, it was the trinity that forged the first parties to begin with, not greed for loot, back on the day people wanted to beat the boss not just get loot.

That being said, trinity is still the best way to keep order in the chaos, and the AI has nothing to do with the trinity system, you can still manage threat in a efective way while "targetting" the squishy ones, but keeping a guy in the middle stoping from moving, think about a massive guy stopping you from moving freely on the field, thats pretty much a tank...

Trinity is the base of MMORPG, GW2 failed miserably on it, and certainly i rather have a trinity party based group than a solo chaos, makes me think of a fps more than a mmorpg.

 

 

 

<p align=center><a target=_blank href=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm><img border=0 src=http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/8.jpg></a></p>

  Maquiame

Elite Member

Joined: 8/21/07
Posts: 567

Power without perception is spiritually useless and of no true value

1/30/14 8:14:53 AM#29
Originally posted by drkoracle

If you haven't seen it yet and are interested in the game go and have a quick look at the Class Panel Video.

Part 1

Part 2

Once they get to the Q&A section you will notice a large amount of the questions are the same thing that made me go WTF, they are ditching the Trinity System and instead going with a GW2 like build. Personally I much prefer structured play, I don't have any qualms about multi-class characters or not needing alts but there is no way I am going trough another GW2 or NWO style dungeon run where everyone zergs in, some may like it but not for me.

They say that they have "systems in place" to make sure any group can complete content no matter there make up, all this translates to in my opinion and experience is  people who want to play the two support roles "tank & healer" will be snubbed for another dps, because whether you can complete content with a balanced group or not, you can complete it faster with 5 people in full dps mode.

The trinity system has it's flaws granted but I believe it is still superior to the system that they are planning to implement, I still want to try the game, but after hearing the same PR bull from the GW2 team I am more than a little sceptical that this game will cater to it's intended market

 

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/comments

It would be nice for those of you who prefer the trinity and other old style systems to invest in this game. *shrugs*

 

Combat in Pantheon  Rise of the Fallen

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/posts/728944?ref=dash

All About Combat in Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen

 

Slowing things down

Combat in Pantheon will be built around a desire to change things up in the MMO space. Contemporary MMOs have become very fast paced and, for lack of a better term, spammy. While the combat is still reactionary in nature it tends to break down to focusing on your rotation while moving left or right. With Pantheon the desire is to shift things back to a slower paced combat where the frequency of ability execution is slower and your rotation is dictated more by your response to the encounter than just a sequence of abilities.

How will we accomplish this? By reaching into the past, and looking at games likeEverQuestDark Age of Camelot, and Final Fantasy XI, and focusing on fewer abilities, and a slower pace of combat. In these games combat involved longer ability activation times, and refresh. They focused on the player or group reacting to cues from NPCs and environment and reacting through the use of ability or position. Current MMOs retain this mechanic but if you stop to watch and react you are not focused on your rotation that fills the in-between time. This results in a potential loss of DPS which ends up taking precedence over utilizing your utility abilities. The values of these abilities is then reduced because they end up just becoming a part of a rotation unless a particular encounter is designed around using them.

Abilities like stun, slow, snare, and root have lost their usefulness. In games like those mentioned previously these abilities were important to manage or execute at the right time. With Pantheon we want to bring some of that back while mixing in some current mechanics that exist in today’s MMOs.

Preparation

One of the key things related to combat is preparation. Similar to the spell slots system from EQ the player is limited in how many abilities they can have available to them in combat. Abilities are stored in ability sets which carry with them certain parameters and limitations. For instance, abilities all have a color influence based on their magical school and adding an ability to a set may require an ability of a certain color before it can be slotted. When out of combat the player can swap abilities if they so desire. The strategic selection of abilities and creation of ability sets will be important when taking on bigger encounters as you explore Terminus.

Abilities

Abilities in Pantheon are very special. Each ability was used by a powerful hero. These heroes are no longer around but their essence imbues the world of Terminus. When harnessed, these abilities can be used in many combinations with other abilities.There are two types of abilities regular and enhanced. Regular abilities are the common abilities that will be executed more frequently. Enhanced abilities must be powered up through the use of regular abilities.

Regular abilities are all defined with a color and power level, on top of what they do. The color represents the magical influence of the hero. Power level represents how powerful that ability is relative to other abilities.

Enhanced abilities are special abilities that require the activation of other abilities in their ability group. Each enhanced ability is linked to a group of abilities themed after a hero. Like regular abilities these abilities have a color influence and must follow the same slot rules as regular abilities. Enhanced abilities can only be activated when their growth bar has reached 100% or higher. At 100% the ability does normal damage, every 100% after that increases the damage of the ability by 100%. Super ability growth happens when an ability in the same ability group is used.

Skill Chains and Sympathetics

Skill chains are a series of super abilities executed in a particular order. These abilities are executed by multiple players. When a skill chain is completed an additional effect fires, this effect is called a sympathetic ability. There is only a certain window of time between each ability activation that the next qualifying one can be. If the player has discovered the chain their ability will light up if they have a qualifying ability letting them know they need to fire that ability next in order to take the chain to the next level.

Chain discovery occurs through experimentation. In order to discover they must try different combinations until they successfully complete the chain. When a chain is initially discovered it is entered into the tome of war. Only through practice can the player unlock the chain, fully gaining its biggest benefit.

Harnessing a Hero

While the player can combine abilities into various sets, true power comes from combining a number of abilities from the same heroes creating a special ability set called a Hero’s Essence.

A form of advanced ability set, hero essences can grow through use like other ability sets, but they have higher tiers and when advanced fully some of these essences will allow the player to take on the look of that hero granting them access to more paths of power.

Roles

With Pantheon we want to bring back class roles that involve more than just tank, healer and DPS. In EverQuest crowd control, utility, and debuffing were a major part of combat and so will it be in our world. This means that each class falls into a particular role but it does not mean that they do not have some basic attributes from other roles. UsingEverQuest as an example, damage shields were the domain of druids and mages, enchanters owned the domain of mana regen and haste but a shaman could give you a less powerful haste if an enchanter was not available. Then there were bards who could do almost everything but nowhere near as well as the classes they were mimicking.

In general the classes of EverQuest kept their identities which made for varied memorable experiences as players took on challenges in different ways. It is these moments that have driven our class and combat designs. Here is a list of the roles that will exist in Pantheon.

Tank: Tanks are the defenders of their groups. When it comes to taking damage they do it like no other. If a group mate is in trouble, tanks are there to attract the attention of their foes with a timely shield bash or a quick snap of their blade. They care not for the glory of highest damage only that the members of their group survives long enough to tell the tale.

Healer: Feeling ill and need a pick me up? That is what a healer does. From buffing your health and curing a deadly disease to stitching up those 'flesh wounds' this role is the cog that keeps the group machine rolling through its enemies like a steam train.

DPS: Adept at dealing death, those classes that fit in the DPS role are revered for their ability to execute both burst and sustained damage. Not big fans of taking damage, DPS classes leave the job of tanking to the tanks so they can focus on what they do best...crush their enemies and you know the rest.

Utility: While tanks can take damage and healers can help recover that damage sometimes the situation can get out of control. When this happens you may need some crowd control, or maybe a haste buff or two, maybe someone can sing a merry tune. The utility role includes the classes that don’t care about doing big damage or making a mob angry at them, these classes enjoy managing the chaos that comes with a fight. They enjoy manipulating all of the variables that can affect the outcome of things, as if they were playing a grand piano. In this sense I guess you could say the utility class is the maestro of their group.

Summary

To sum it all up, Pantheon’s combat will be a slower paced strategic combat that incorporates some modern day ideals. Allowing the player to survey the battle will give them the ability to make tactical decisions bringing back the utility of ability effects like stun, snare, and root. It will focus on pre-combat preparation and ability, allowing the player to adjust the way they play depending on their mood or the challenge ahead. With depth through all aspects including the ability to slot growth, group leveling, and chain skills, players will have many ways to grow in power and exploit their targets.

 

Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!

  SuperNick

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/10/07
Posts: 343

1/30/14 8:18:07 AM#30

The no-trinity system is a mythical functionality that is impossible to balance in my opinion, something that ArenaNet had to find out the hard way. While it works moderately OK in PvP, I personally don't see how you could ever balance it from a PvE perspective.

It's one of the main reasons my hype meter for EQN basically dropped to zero because I don't ever see it working out for them.

  NavinJohnson

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/13
Posts: 59

1/30/14 11:42:39 AM#31

I don't understand the purpose of posts like this. What do people hope to accomplish with them?

 

If you are resigned to stay loyal to trinity mechanics, that's fine. Purchase and play games that have trinity mechanics.

 

Problem solved.

  drkoracle

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/21/09
Posts: 122

 
OP  1/30/14 12:20:52 PM#32
Originally posted by NavinJohnson

I don't understand the purpose of posts like this. What do people hope to accomplish with them?

 

If you are resigned to stay loyal to trinity mechanics, that's fine. Purchase and play games that have trinity mechanics.

 

Problem solved.

 

It was to make people aware of what the devs are planning and to have a discussion about it. If you find it irrelevant that's fine you are just as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine, but if you have no interest in it why open it and comment? Was the title not clear enough?
  Darknessguy64

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/30/13
Posts: 237

1/30/14 12:23:33 PM#33

Calling the trinity design "lazy" is in itself "lazy" unless you propose a better, fun and exciting alternative.

 

 

  drkoracle

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/21/09
Posts: 122

 
OP  1/30/14 12:24:15 PM#34
Originally posted by SuperNick

The no-trinity system is a mythical functionality that is impossible to balance in my opinion, something that ArenaNet had to find out the hard way. While it works moderately OK in PvP, I personally don't see how you could ever balance it from a PvE perspective.

It's one of the main reasons my hype meter for EQN basically dropped to zero because I don't ever see it working out for them.

 

Couldn't agree more, some people here are saying that it's evolution, I don't see how, imo the whole point of a MMO is teamplay.
  Thunder073

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/29/03
Posts: 52

1/30/14 12:29:54 PM#35

@ OP:

I agree 100% bud. Check out Pantheon. It's exactly up our ally. This is the game for us, not all this crap thats come out since 2002. Finally a game going back to the roots. Where players actually interact and group to defeat harder monsters that takes skill, not one shotting 100 mobs in 3 mins.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen

 

  NavinJohnson

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/13
Posts: 59

1/30/14 12:29:54 PM#36

Well, it's not a matter of making people aware of what the developers are planning to do. First, because the game mechanics have been well known since August, and secondly, there is no planning about it. The decision has been made and followed up with development.

 

In any case, it's true, you are entitled to  your opinions, tastes, and preferences; and you are entitled to discuss them.

 

My comment was stimulated because it appears that this post (and others like it) seem to be suffering from the disillusion that they can persuade SOE to change the mechanic to suit their needs, which is not going to happen.

 

 

  Allein

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/13
Posts: 650

1/30/14 12:32:38 PM#37
You are jumping to the conclusion without any context that there will be no teamwork when they have clearly said they want a focus on team play, socializing, roles are present as always, players will need each to overcome challenges, etc. It isn't their fault some lack imagination and can't think beyond the trinity. Is the trinity roles and teamwork or taunt and dated mechanics? If you pick the first one, nothing to worry about, if you pick the second, sorry.
  NavinJohnson

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/13
Posts: 59

1/30/14 12:34:46 PM#38
Originally posted by drkoracle
Originally posted by NavinJohnson

I don't understand the purpose of posts like this. What do people hope to accomplish with them?

 

If you are resigned to stay loyal to trinity mechanics, that's fine. Purchase and play games that have trinity mechanics.

 

Problem solved.

 

It was to make people aware of what the devs are planning and to have a discussion about it. If you find it irrelevant that's fine you are just as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine, but if you have no interest in it why open it and comment? Was the title not clear enough?

Well, it's not a matter of making people aware of what the developers are planning to do. First, because the game mechanics have been well known since August, and secondly, there is no planning about it. The decision has been made and followed up with development.

In any case, it's true, you are entitled to  your opinions, tastes, and preferences; and you are entitled to discuss them.

My comment was stimulated because it appears that this post (and others like it) seem to be suffering from the illusion that they can persuade SOE to change the mechanic to suit their needs, which is not going to happen.

 

  Kaneth

Elite Member

Joined: 8/19/07
Posts: 1460

1/30/14 12:43:55 PM#39
Originally posted by drkoracle
Originally posted by SuperNick

The no-trinity system is a mythical functionality that is impossible to balance in my opinion, something that ArenaNet had to find out the hard way. While it works moderately OK in PvP, I personally don't see how you could ever balance it from a PvE perspective.

It's one of the main reasons my hype meter for EQN basically dropped to zero because I don't ever see it working out for them.

 

Couldn't agree more, some people here are saying that it's evolution, I don't see how, imo the whole point of a MMO is teamplay.

I agree that mmo is the spirit of teamplay but teamplay does not equate to trinity. Some of the MMO originators were not even remotely trinity based. Asheron's Call is the example I can speak on the most since I played it for numerous years. There was no classes, just skills you could mix and match. There was no typical taunt skill, however, a well armored person could physically place themselves between mobs and the rest of their party as there was collision detection. There also was no trinity, and most people built for self sustainability. However, in group play there was more than typical trinity in order to teamplay to work. Groups would buff each other, debuff mobs, help heal each other at times, use collision detection to create effective choke points. The game wasn't a gear grind as the loot system was more like diablo than a typical mmo.

Trinity is not the end all, be all to mmos. There can be, and should be more options. People harp on about GW2 and how their lack of trinity failed. However, as a current GW2 player, I can tell you that in dungeon runs and wvw groups with my guild we often run builds that help compliment each other. There is support play, there is tankier builds, sustain builds, full on glass cannon builds, and many things in between. There's way too much focus on the zerg gameplay that happens in bigger events and in prime time WvW. However, that is just one facet of the game, and there are other less talked about facets to the game.

I, for one, am pretty excited to see what SoE has in store for their numerous classes they are putting in the game. Even more excited to see if they open up gameplay for buffers, debuffers, controllers, healing, etc. Breaking apart the support roles into sub roles is going to be a great thing for the genre again. There's been too much focus on Tank, Healer, DPS roles and other support roles have either been homogenized into one of those three main roles or ignore completely.

  pmcubed

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/17/05
Posts: 285

1/30/14 12:45:09 PM#40

Intelligent AI?  So, making the NPC's act in a way a human would.  Even if someone wanted to create such an extravagant system, it would still follow simple rules.

NPC would have build in meters, such as threat meters or dps meters. they would intelligently look at group HP or calculate who has the weakest mitigation nearly instantly.  They would just focus down the weakest member and CC the highest damage.

On top of that, it's chaos.  Look at the MT boss fight in WoW.  Or the SWTOR dungeon where you fight 4 guys who aren't tauntable.  Sure it might be cool for a deviation from normal tank/spank encounters SOMETIMES, but then it becomes an unocoordinated zerg-fest with little team-play and a lot of stress.

I'm not saying it's impossible to do away with the trinity and have really smart NPC's, but it's hard to balance the fun factor of playing a game vs. how crazy frustrating it would become.  

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